The link to the Harry Crane section is http://www.oac.cdlib.org/findaid/ark:/13030/kt0p3017jh

Below are a few other scripts I found listed in his collection at UCLA for The Honeymooners, including a few DuMont shows it looks like (when there are dates available):

Box 108, Folder 9 Honeymooners-Inserts ca. 1951

Box 109, Folder 6 Six Months to Live - script material ca. 1952

Box 109, Folder 7 Busdrivers' Frolics (Alice Plays the Trombone) - script material No date

Box 109, Folder 8 Surprise Party - script material 1952 April 4

Box 109, Folder 28 Alice Finds a Dog - script material 1952 [Feb] 1

Box 109, Folder 15 Mystery Novel (The) - script material No date

Box 109, Folder 18 Ralph Loses His Job - script material No date

Box 109, Folder 19 Turkey (The) (Thinks Turkey Swallowed Ring) - script material No date

Box 109, Folder 22 Expectant Father (The) (Alice Knitting Sweater for Dog) No date

Box 109, Folder 23 I'm Not Going for the Bread (First Honeymooners Written and Performed) - script material 1951 Oct 5

Box 109, Folder 24 Joe the Jeweler (Ralph-Jealous of Jeweler) - script material 1952 March 30

Box 109, Folder 25 Vacation Plans (Fred's Landing) - script material 1952 May 30

Box 109, Folder 27 Cold (The) - script material 1952 Feb 2

Box 109, Folder 28 Alice Finds a Dog - script material 1952 [Feb] 1

Box 109, Folder 29 Driving Lesson (The) - script material No date

Box 109, Folder 30 Manager of the Baseball Team - script material 1952 May 16

Box 109, Folder 31 Supermarket-Shopping Alice's Anniversary - script material 1951 Oct 19

Box 109, Folder 32 Meat Substitute Lead in to E-2-Do Closet - script material No date

Box 110, Folder 1 Easter Sketch - script material 1952 April 11

Box 110, Folder 6 Helen-Alice's Sister Argues with Her Husband - script material 1952 Jan 4

Box 110, Folder 7 Alice and Ralph Get Dressed for Date Last Night - script material ca. 1951 Nov 30- 1952 May 4

Box 110, Folder 8 Double Indemnity Unproduced - script material No date

Box 110, Folder 9 Ralph Thinks Alice [is] Planning to Murder Him Suspense - script material No date

Box 110, Folder 10 Missing Pair of Pants (The) - script material No date

Box 110, Folder 11 Spring Cleaning - script material No date

Box 110, Folder 12 Home Run Ball (The) - script material No date

With a lot of these dates, when available, it tells me that the 1952-1953 first season on CBS involved a lot of perhaps "remakes" of earlier DuMont shows.

I wanted to share this information that I just found ... ideas, suggestions, thoughts? It's been quiet on here as far as any discussions go. Sometimes I think if Frank wasn't doing his postings this message board may just go away all together (Thanks, Frank, for keeping the flame lit!) but thought I would pass what I found along!

(BTW, the original link where I find the information on many of the performing arts collections was at http://www2.library.ucla.edu/specialcollections/performingarts/10519_10528.cfm )

You found some awesome information!!! Thanks for posting the link.

Were there any other scripts that you didn't post?

The UCLA archives website is a fun place to poke around and just type in various titles and see what comes up!

I believe that Crane was more of a writer for Gleason on DuMont, and into the first season of CBS, so that is why I believe that many of these shows could possibly be originally from Cavalcade and then remade on CBS. I always felt that there had to be more skits from Cavalcade than just the 7 or 8 that are available, especially since Gleason hosted the show into 1952 and the last skit available is the Christmas 1951 show. I also think that the DuMont skits that have been found (or atleast readily available) were originally from either Crane's or writer Snag Werris' collection found by one of their daughters.

Also, during those early days of live TV, the writers didn't have scripts written and ready weeks and months in advance. And Gleason was known to reuse older scripts (remakes in the 1950s, the Europe shows in the 1960s and all shows until the 1969-1970 season) so I think it is safe to say that the Crane collection has a lot of valuable information for us.

If I have a chance, or if someone else would like to, contact UCLA and ask about the scripts. Possibly someone has information about if the shows are from DuMont or CBS, or both.

I always felt that there had to be more skits from Cavalcade than just the 7 or 8 that are available, especially since Gleason hosted the show into 1952 and the last skit available is the Christmas 1951 show.
I always assumed that only 7 sketches were done on Cavalcade because of Gleason's move to CBS. What I don't understand is, if he was still hosting the show in 1952, why would the cast have done those two sketches on The Ed Sullivan Show instead? If I'm not mistaken, they also went on a promo tour that year, before the switch to CBS, so that could explain the lack of televised Honeymooners sketches, as well as some of the mystery scripts found in Harry Crane's collection.

I also think that the DuMont skits that have been found (or atleast readily available) were originally from either Crane's or writer Snag Werris' collection found by one of their daughters.
I'm pretty sure it was Snag Werris's daughter that found the Cavalcade kinescopes.

Thank you Benno. It does get quiet around here. Good to see this information that you posted. I like finding out about rare Honeymooners material too.

When that "Turkey" script was on Ebay, I wish I won it. Makes me wonder when ALL of the Honeymooners material is going to be released (and mostly in the Lost Episodes' case re-released. BTW, shouldn't MPI be done remastering at least two seasons of the Lost Episodes by now since they announced that they would be remastering the Lost Episodes in 2004?

Thank you Benno. It does get quiet around here. Good to see this information that you posted. I like finding out about rare Honeymooners material too.

When that "Turkey" script was on Ebay, I wish I won it. Makes me wonder when ALL of the Honeymooners material is going to be released (and mostly in the Lost Episodes' case re-released. BTW, shouldn't MPI be done remastering at least two seasons of the Lost Episodes by now since they announced that they would be remastering the Lost Episodes in 2004?


I can't help but wonder if the Gleason estate does not own a copy of the Turkey skit and that is why we haven't seen it. It was listed as lost in The Honeymooner Lost episodes book, but that was back in 1986 and other skits have since resurfaced. I still think of that ebay auctiion as the noe that got away.

I have no insider information, but I think MPI probably gave up on the Lost Episodes as I'm seeing the first two color collections highly discounted online. (If anyone needs a source, send me a private message as I'm not posting it here.) As I've said often, I'd be happy to be wrong.

Benno, thanks for your research. Look what a little info did to stimulate this otherwise comatose board. You are great & we are grateful!

From the way it sounds, not even the Paley Center (aka Museum of TV and Radio) has a copy of "The Turkey." I just found in their catalog a description of The Jackie Gleason Show from September 27, 1952 and here is what it says: (source: http://www.paleycenter.org/collection/item/?q=jackie+gleason+show&f=all&c=all&advanced=1&p=2&item=T:57098)

Summary
One in this comedy/variety series featuring Jackie Gleason. This reconstruction of the original episode was assembled by The Museum of Television & Radio from various kinescopes and videotape elements. (A list of segments not included on this tape immediately follows this summary.) The program opens with a number by the June Taylor Dancers to "Another Opening, Another Show"; Gleason comes out to sing "Who Cares," surrounded by the dancers, and does a dance duet with Marilyn Taylor to "Crazy Rythym." Announcer Paul Luther introduces a sketch involving Charlie Bratton, the Loudmouth (Gleason) and Clem Finch (Art Carney) in which Charlie interferes with Clem's attempt to sell a rare dime to a coin collector. Next, Gleason introduces Jimmy Dorsey, who plays clarinet with his seven-piece band on two numbers, including "Struttin' with Some Barbecue." After the Schick commercial, Luther introduces the Reggie Van Gleason III sketch; Carney plays announcer for a wrestling match (complete with ring provided by Everlast) between the tag team of the Indian Marauder and Baron Von Deutchsland against Charlie Lump and the dashing society playboy himself, who makes his entrance with an elaborate litter and wrestles in a leopard-skinned outfit. An out-of-breath Gleason closes the show. Includes commercial.

(Segments not included: opening title; monologue featuring Jackie Gleason; performance featuring Patti Page; "The Honeymooners" sketch; performance featuring Joan Holloway)

(This program contains minor technical problems. This represents the best copy of this program currently available to the Museum.)

Details
NETWORK: CBS
DATE: September 27, 1952 Saturday 8:00 PM
RUNNING TIME: 0:34:35
COLOR/B&W: B&W
CATALOG ID: T:57098
GENRE: TV - Comedy/Variety
SUBJECT HEADING: Comedy
SERIES RUN: CBS - TV series, 1952-1959
COMMERCIALS:
CREDITS
Jackie Gleason........ Producer

Jack Hurdle........ Producer

Stanley Poss........ Production (Misc.)

Randolph Gunter........ Production (Misc.)

Frank Satenstein........ Director

Ray Allen........ Writer

Harry Crane........ Writer

Marvin Marx........ Writer

Arthur Phillips........ Writer

Walter Stone........ Writer

June Taylor........ Choreographer

The June Taylor Dancer........ Dance Company

Marilyn Taylor........ Dancer

Ray Bloch........ Music (Misc. Credits)

Jimmy Dorsey........ Guest

Paul Luther........ Announcer

Jackie Gleason........ Host

Art Carney........ Cast

Lee Joyce........ Cast

Bill Nimmo........ Talent

Joan Holloway

Patti Page

I always assumed that only 7 sketches were done on Cavalcade because of Gleason's move to CBS. What I don't understand is, if he was still hosting the show in 1952, why would the cast have done those two sketches on The Ed Sullivan Show instead? If I'm not mistaken, they also went on a promo tour that year, before the switch to CBS, so that could explain the lack of televised Honeymooners sketches, as well as some of the mystery scripts found in Harry Crane's collection.


I've always felt that there had to be more skits from the Cavalcade era. The information that I have, from a book called Television Variety Shows: Histories and Episode Guides To 57 Programs by David Inman, states that Gleason's final show on Cavalcade of June 6, 1952 and then Larry Storch took over as host. The Paley Center has in it's collection a show dated 7/6/1952 that it has listed Gleason and Morey Amsterdam as being on, or the book could have the dates wrong. (There is also a show at Paley from June 20, 1952 listed with Gleason as host.) So sometime between June or July, 1952 Gleason left Cavalcade. That would still give plenty of time to promote the upcoming CBS show and do a vaudeville tour (which does anyone have information on this, dates and cities they visited?)

There are several listings I've seen, like within that book or on the Paley site, of Gleason hosting The Colgate Comedy Hour, appearing on Kate Smith, and of course the Sullivan show while still hosting Cavalcade. Not to mention Frank Sinatra's show as well. So I don't find it odd that Gleason appeared on other shows on other networks during that time. Plus, DuMont did not have as wide of an audience as CBS and NBC did, so all this did was promote Gleason even more and get his name out for the public. Plus, if "The Honeymooners" were as popular on DuMont as everyone claims, it would have not made sense to stop doing those skits past December, 1951.

I've always felt that there had to be more skits from the Cavalcade era. The information that I have, from a book called Television Variety Shows: Histories and Episode Guides To 57 Programs by David Inman, states that Gleason's final show on Cavalcade of June 6, 1952 and then Larry Storch took over as host. The Paley Center has in it's collection a show dated 7/6/1952 that it has listed Gleason and Morey Amsterdam as being on, or the book could have the dates wrong. (There is also a show at Paley from June 20, 1952 listed with Gleason as host.) So sometime between June or July, 1952 Gleason left Cavalcade. That would still give plenty of time to promote the upcoming CBS show and do a vaudeville tour (which does anyone have information on this, dates and cities they visited?)

There are several listings I've seen, like within that book or on the Paley site, of Gleason hosting The Colgate Comedy Hour, appearing on Kate Smith, and of course the Sullivan show while still hosting Cavalcade. Not to mention Frank Sinatra's show as well. So I don't find it odd that Gleason appeared on other shows on other networks during that time. Plus, DuMont did not have as wide of an audience as CBS and NBC did, so all this did was promote Gleason even more and get his name out for the public. Plus, if "The Honeymooners" were as popular on DuMont as everyone claims, it would have not made sense to stop doing those skits past December, 1951.
I'm all for more Honeymooners sketches, but I feel like we would have seen them documented elsewhere. Plus, if Snag Werris had all the earliest sketches, why not the later ones? Hopefully we'll find out for sure some time soon. I don't remember where I read about that tour they did, but I'll look into it. Any idea if they did any Honeymooners sketches on those other shows Gleason appeared on?

I'm all for more Honeymooners sketches, but I feel like we would have seen them documented elsewhere. Plus, if Snag Werris had all the earliest sketches, why not the later ones? Hopefully we'll find out for sure some time soon. I don't remember where I read about that tour they did, but I'll look into it. Any idea if they did any Honeymooners sketches on those other shows Gleason appeared on?


DuMont either did not keep records, very little information, or all information was lost or destroyed so the fact that this information is coming out now is not a big surprise. Until "Love Letter" was found no one knew about that, either ... and CBS and I would think Gleason Enterprises would have kept better records on that. You're talking a 6-7 month span, I believe that there are still plenty of to-be-discovered Honeymooners sketches, it's just when and where and how soon!

DuMont either did not keep records, very little information, or all information was lost or destroyed so the fact that this information is coming out now is not a big surprise. Until "Love Letter" was found no one knew about that, either ... and CBS and I would think Gleason Enterprises would have kept better records on that. You're talking a 6-7 month span, I believe that there are still plenty of to-be-discovered Honeymooners sketches, it's just when and where and how soon!
"Love Letter" was actually listed in John's book two years before it was discovered, along with the 7 earliest DuMont sketches. I always wondered where he got a lot of those titles and air dates from though...do you still keep in contact with him at all?

"Love Letter" was actually listed in John's book two years before it was discovered, along with the 7 earliest DuMont sketches. I always wondered where he got a lot of those titles and air dates from though...do you still keep in contact with him at all?


I haven't talked to John in a long, long, long time. I looked his name up on Facebook one time, and I think I found him, but I didn't message him or add him. I know that he had access to a lot of information to compile the list. The original listing of the 1966-1970 shows, and appeared on his website, I helped compile for him using information and TV Guides from the Bowling Green State University Popular Culture Library collection.

From TV.com, under the section for Cavalcade, there is a listing of shows that Gleason hosted. While very few have sketches from the show listed -- mostly just guest stars or, when Gleason was out, guest hosts -- I was able to match up dates for when Gleason did appear. From the dates listed, and the dates available on the Harry Crane scripts at UCLA, I believe that we have found additional undocumented Honeymooners sketches. Besides, looking at the date given for the "I'm Not Going For The Bread" matches with the first skit from October 5, 1951.

There were some that don't match up -- "The Cold" is dated Feb 2, 1952, but there was not a show that date. There was one the day before, on Feb. 1 and the script material is dated with a "Alice Finds A Dog" scripts, but the majority do match.

No one can convince me otherwise on this, I have a positive feeling. Now, as most know, almost all of DuMont's kinescopes were destroyed or dumped into the river, so now comes the fun part of finding these shows!

TV.com's link for Cavalcade is http://www.tv.com/cavalcade-of-stars/show/17638/episode.html?tag=page_nav;episode

I haven't talked to John in a long, long, long time. I looked his name up on Facebook one time, and I think I found him, but I didn't message him or add him. I know that he had access to a lot of information to compile the list. The original listing of the 1966-1970 shows, and appeared on his website, I helped compile for him using information and TV Guides from the Bowling Green State University Popular Culture Library collection.
Yeah, I noticed that he credited you in the book. A good number of the sketches listed in his episode log were never listed on the website though, so I'd assume he got access to that information while he was putting the book together. I sure would love to get access to that information myself...maybe I'll write a book. ;)

From TV.com, under the section for Cavalcade, there is a listing of shows that Gleason hosted. While very few have sketches from the show listed -- mostly just guest stars or, when Gleason was out, guest hosts -- I was able to match up dates for when Gleason did appear. From the dates listed, and the dates available on the Harry Crane scripts at UCLA, I believe that we have found additional undocumented Honeymooners sketches. Besides, looking at the date given for the "I'm Not Going For The Bread" matches with the first skit from October 5, 1951.

There were some that don't match up -- "The Cold" is dated Feb 2, 1952, but there was not a show that date. There was one the day before, on Feb. 1 and the script material is dated with a "Alice Finds A Dog" scripts, but the majority do match.

No one can convince me otherwise on this, I have a positive feeling. Now, as most know, almost all of DuMont's kinescopes were destroyed or dumped into the river, so now comes the fun part of finding these shows!

TV.com's link for Cavalcade is http://www.tv.com/cavalcade-of-stars...ge_nav;episode
Most of the air dates do match up...I can't argue with that. I think we might be onto something here! I guess the next step would be to see about getting copies of those scripts.

Found more scripts listings that UCLA supposedly has. The ones that I listed as NOT SURE or NS, I am not sure if they have Honeymooners scripts.

48, folder 5 NS
"Jackie Gleason Show Syndication" undated

box 48, folder 6
My Boy Shirley 1947

box 48, folder 7
Jackie Gleason Show Residuals 1989-1990

box 48, folder 8 NS
JG Blackouts undated

box 48, folder 9 NS
JG Blackouts undated

box 49, folder 1 NS
Jackie Gleason Show Blackouts 1963-1964

box 49, folder 2 NS
JG Blackouts undated

box 49, folder 3 NS
JG Blackouts undated

box 49, folder 4 NS
JG Blackouts undated

box 49, folder 5 NS
JG Blackouts undated

box 50, folder 1 NS
Jackie Gleason Show undated

box 50, folder 2 NS
Jackie Gleason Show Premises and Ideas undated

box 50, folder 3 NS
Jackie Gleason Show Miscellaneous Ideas undated

box 50, folder 4
Jackie Gleason Monologue - "The Ray Bloch Story" undated

box 50, folder 5
Jackie Gleason Monologue - "The Ray Bloch Story" undated

box 50, folder 6
Charlie Bratton (Premises) undated

box 50, folder 7
Charlie Bratton ("The Lord Mouth") undated

box 50, folder 8
Charlie Bratton ("Charlie's Hair Treatment") undated

box 50, folder 9
The Lord Mouth ("Charlie's Hair Treatment") undated

box 50, folder 10
Fenwick Babbitt undated

box 50, folder 11
Fenwick Babbitt undated

box 50, folder 12
Fenwick Babbitt - Bank Stuff undated

box 50, folder 13
Mother Fletcher ("Round the World Travel Kit") undated

box 50, folder 14
Mother Fletcher (Items) undated

box 50, folder 15
Mother Fletcher (Story) undated

box 50, folder 16
Poor Soul "Friendship Club" undated

box 50, folder 17
Poor Soul "Camping Out" undated

box 50, folder 18
Poor Soul "The Sidewalk Superintendent" undated

box 50, folder 19
Poor Soul "Camping Out" undated

box 50, folder 20
Poor Soul (Premises) (Theory and Construction) undated

box 50, folder 21
Poor Soul (Business) undated

box 50, folder 22
Poor Soul "Kite up a Tree" undated

box 50, folder 23 NS
Skating Rink undated

box 50, folder 24
Reggie - Ballet Stuff undated

box 50, folder 25
Reggie - Drinking Gags undated

box 50, folder 26
Reggie "The War Orphan" undated

box 50, folder 1
Reggie "Sports Car Salesman" undated

box 51, folder 2
Reggie "Sports Car Salesman" undated

box 51, folder 3
Reggie "Car Salesman" undated

box 51, folder 4
Reggie "The Artist" undated

box 51, folder 5
Reggie "African Material" undated

box 51, folder 6
Reggie "Ballet" undated

box 51, folder 7 NS
Excavation undated

box 51, folder 8
Reggie "Gags" undated

box 51, folder 9 NS
Horse undated

box 51, folder 10 NS
Power of Positive Hypnosis undated

box 51, folder 11
Reggie "Premises and Bits" undated

box 51, folder 12
Rudy the Repairman undated

box 51, folder 13
Rudy the Repairman "HiFi- Hi-Jinx" undated

box 51, folder 14 NS
Norton Lines undated

box 51, folder 15
Insults undated

box 51, folder 16
The Honeymooners next hit (Premises and Bits) undated

box 51, folder 17
The previous hit Honeymooners next hit (Plot Outliners) undated

box 51, folder 18
The previous hit Honeymooners next hit (Premises) undated

box 51, folder 19
The previous hit Honeymooners next hit ("Are You From Texas") undated

box 51, folder 20
The previous hit Honeymooners next hit ("The Rich Uncle") undated

box 51, folder 21
The previous hit Honeymooners next hit (Script) undated

box 51, folder 22
The previous hit Honeymooners next hit ("The Steamer Trunk") undated

box 52, folder 1
The previous hit Honeymooners (As Used) undated

box 52, folder 2 NS
Comedy Spots 1963-1965

box 52, folder 3
Rum Dum undated

box 52, folder 4
Reggie undated

box 52, folder 5 NS
Comedy spots 1963-1965

box 52, folder 6
Comedy spots and photocopied stills undated

box 52, folder 7 NS
Agreements undated

box 52, folder 8 NS
Letters undated

box 53, folder 1 NS
Film Stills undated

box 53, folder 2
Jackie Gleason Monologue - "The Ray Bloch Story" undated

box 54, folder 1 NS
Scripts undated

box 54, folder 2
Arthur Peck undated

box 54, folder 3 NS
Jackie Gleason undated

box 54, folder 4 NOT SURE
JG Blackouts undated

box 54, folder 5 NOT SURE
Jackie Gleason undated

box 54, folder 6
Fenwick Babbitt undated

box 54, folder 7
Jackie Gleason undated

box 54, folder 8
Joe, The Bartender undated

box 54, folder 9
Monologue - Joe, The Bartender undated

box 54, folder 10 NOT SURE
#16 1960 January 10

box 54, folder 11
Monologue undated

box 65, folder 11 HONEYMOONERS
TV Or Not TV undated