Of course, it also begs the question of where the senior Maples originally got the Bunting names from. Did they just randomly pick the surname and the four given names or was/is there ever an actual Bunting family whose names have been used without permission? If the latter proves true, they could charge Mr. Maples with four counts of identity theft!

Hmmm. I never thought of that. But don't forget that Bunting wasn't the only alias the Maples used. They also called themselves Ray and Sandra Farmer and Harvey and Joan Wilson.

Maybe we'll have 12 counts of identity theft? :crazy: And those are just the aliases we know about. Who knows how many other times they might have changed their names over the years?

There has been speculation at the Murfreesboro Post and elsewhere that Sandra was the more the driver and manipulator in this case, and her husband was more the conniver and back-up. If this theory is correct, then the death of Sandra Maple is a blow to her husband in more ways than one.

And let's not forget that it was Marvin who made the slip - probably too much booze at the bar. I wonder if his wife would have made a mistake like that? If she had been alive and seen the report, what would she have done? Would she have urged her husband to run again? That would have been difficult as they were too firmly established in San Jose and Christi and Bobby were making lives of their own.

Some people may be disappointed that Sandra Maple is dead, but if our theories about her are correct, then her death was the beginning of the end.

I imagine psychological assessments will be in order. They were ordered for both Baskins and Maples at the custody battle (I wonder what the findings were?) and another may be done for Marvin Maple. I think this is very likely, as there is a strong chance it will become part of Marvin's defence. The defence which is most likely to succeed that Marvin had some sort of psychological problem, and this is the defence his attorney is most likely to run. Marvin may not agree with such a defence, but the Defence Attorney will know that the old satanic ritual abuse allegations will not wash unless they have hard evidence, which I very much doubt. If the Maples had had that evidence at the time, permanent custody would have been awarded to them and the Baskins locked up. The Maples would have emerged the heroes and the Baskins the villains. But that did not happen at the time, and I will be very surprised if it happens after 20 years. Also, the Defence will have a very hard time getting around the one question that everyone who supports the Baskins keep asking: If Marvin and Sandra really did believe the grandchildren were being abused, why did they leave their other grandchild behind with the alleged abusers?

I personally think they choose Bunting because it begins with a B and includes an 'in' like Baskin. I also question whether they had a period of calling themselves Buntin to the kids and then adding the 'g' over time. Buntin is a well known last name in Nashville, so they may have heard the name before. it just seems like if they did want the kids to forget their early life, it would make it easier to transition from Baskin to Buntin(g).

I agree with the Murfreesboro post. No doubt about it Sandra was the one with the master plan, it was only after her death that Marvin started getting sloppy.

I agree with the Murfreesboro post. No doubt about it Sandra was the one with the master plan, it was only after her death that Marvin started getting sloppy.

It just goes to show that when you are in hiding you can't afford to let your guard down, even for an instant. Just one mistake can cost you. But of course we are all human, so it is inevitable we make a mistake sooner or later. After all, going on the run is a complicated business and requires a lot of strength, resources, cunning, vigil, and keeping constant tabs on the advances in the technology and communications that your pursuers are using. In the age we live in, you have to have the brains of a computer hacker to stay one step ahead of the law. So it's very difficult to keep it up indefinitely, especially when you are starting to get old. And when you have been doing it for a while you may get a little lazy and careless, as you may begin to feel that since you haven't been caught so far, you're not likely to get caught now. Such notions have been the undoing of many a criminal and always will be. :rolleyes:

They literally just did a new piece about this story on Nashville's Fox 17. http://www.fox17.com/

They might have video of it online. I don't think the kids have seen the parents yet. They were at the Nashville airport bringing in Marvin Maple and then interviewed. The cop said that they think 'Bobby' had figured out the kidnapping in December when the news covered the case in CA.

http://www.fox17.com/

They literally just did a new piece about this story on Nashville's Fox 17. http://www.fox17.com/

They might have video of it online. I don't think the kids have seen the parents yet. They were at the Nashville airport bringing in Marvin Maple and then interviewed. The cop said that they think 'Bobby' had figured out the kidnapping in December when the news covered the case in CA.

http://www.fox17.com/

Fox says that Marvin Maple is in Rutherford County Jail on a million dollars bond. I bet his relatives are scrambling to raise the money. If they succeed I hope Maple doesn't disappear off again.

They literally just did a new piece about this story on Nashville's Fox 17. http://www.fox17.com/

They might have video of it online. I don't think the kids have seen the parents yet. They were at the Nashville airport bringing in Marvin Maple and then interviewed. The cop said that they think 'Bobby' had figured out the kidnapping in December when the news covered the case in CA.

http://www.fox17.com/

It says "click play" to watch it the news segment but all that comes up is a story about water. What am I doing wrong? :crazy:

If they loved their grandkids so much.....then why did they never have any contact with Michael after they fled? I realize that the ones who try to see the Maple side of the story allow that they *couldnt* take Michael because he lived in another state....but if they loved their grandchildren SO much, and being that Michael is as much a grandchild as Christi and Bobby, then how could Marvin and Sandra live without having any contact whatsoever with him?

By the way, Michael is a great kid. Very, very sweet and well adjusted. I have had the pleasure of knowing this family for years. I'm just continuing to hope and pray that the truth prevails and that Christi and Bobby will rejoin their family.

It says "click play" to watch it the news segment but all that comes up is a story about water. What am I doing wrong?
I get that too, seems like fox screwed it up :/

wouldn't they have to change their names? i don't know how to explain what i mean, so i'll do so very badly. and please, correct me if I am wrong.
i believe Legally their names are Baskin. They were never legally changed as far as I know. If he changed their names when they moved there must be false birth certificates, false social security numbers, that sort of thing. wouldn't they have to legally be under the name Baskin?
Again, someone please correct me if I'm mistaken =X

It seems to me that efforts to have Kimberly Mays change her name to Arlena Twigg were unsuccessful, although tests proved she was Arlena Twigg. It didn't help that the person who lived under that name after being switched with her died tragically young.

It says "click play" to watch it the news segment but all that comes up is a story about water. What am I doing wrong? :crazy:

It works now - the keen eyed viewer will notice a slightly different photograph of The Baskins than what was used on UM (Mark is missing in this one) but its obviously from the same day.

The cop said that they think 'Bobby' had figured out the kidnapping in December when the news covered the case in CA.

http://www.fox17.com/
Well, that gives me hope that Bobby hasn't been thoroughly brainwashed with evil stories about abuse. No matter what has been told to these kids, I still believe it is possible for them to be reconciled with their real parents. It may not happen swiftly or smoothly, but it can still happen, and I hope it does.

Most of us would like to think of this as Bobby and Christie gaining their real parents back, gaining their brothers back, and gaining the extended family that has missed them for over 20 years.

But unfortunately, Bobby and Christie probably view this as losing the man they thought was their dad, losing their own identity, losing their privacy (as their faces are all over the news), and losing any semblance of a normal life.

When you look at it that way, I can see how they would be completely devastated and probably not want anything to do with the Baskins for now.

I just keep praying that in time they will come to understand the truth and they will be able to have some form of a healthy relationship with the Baskins. I am also hopeful that they either have access to some professional help from a psychologist or psychiatrist who can help them come to terms with their feelings and sort it all out.

I can't even imagine the hell they must be going through right now.

Most of us would like to think of this as Bobby and Christie gaining their real parents back, gaining their brothers back, and gaining the extended family that has missed them for over 20 years.

But unfortunately, Bobby and Christie probably view this as losing the man they thought was their dad, losing their own identity, losing their privacy (as their faces are all over the news), and losing any semblance of a normal life.

When you look at it that way, I can see how they would be completely devastated and probably not want anything to do with the Baskins for now.

I just keep praying that in time they will come to understand the truth and they will be able to have some form of a healthy relationship with the Baskins. I am also hopeful that they either have access to some professional help from a psychologist or psychiatrist who can help them come to terms with their feelings and sort it all out.

I can't even imagine the hell they must be going through right now.

Yeah, that's really the saddest thing of all. Even though Marvin Maple is finally in jail, the damage that he and his wife did to Christi and Bobby remains. And unfortunately, it's something they're both going to have to live with for the rest of their lives. This is something that can't be made better over night. The Baskins know this and that's why they're putting no pressure on Bobby and Christi. They know they have to work things out for themselves before any reunion can take place.

Still, it must be weird for them knowing they are just miles from their children - the closest they have been to them in 20 years - but thinking they probably won't see them at this moment. The most important thing is the message has been sent to the children. Mark and Debbie love them. Their brothers love them.

They're all victims in this and I pray they get that reunion soon.

I have been reading this thread daily and boy, you guys are are hard to keep up with! Anyway, I've read so many comments about the Baskin children's reactions or lack of them, up to this point. I would like to share what's it like from a first hand prospective. Our circumstances were completely different but the reactions paralell when you are faced with a very traumatic event in your life. When we told Lisa's (Kimmell) sisters (both young teenagers at the time) that she had been murdered. It was so difficult for them emotionally and each reacted differently. Which wouldn't surpise me about the Baskin children. We had to let them do it in their own way and in their own time frame. As parents, all we could do was be there for them when they needed us. Our case also recieved a lot of media attention and that made them feel uncomfortable, as well. A week after the funeral was over, one daughter wanted to go back to school to be around her friends whereas the other couldn't deal with it yet and we home schooled for over a month. So one needed more time and privacy than the other.

14 years later we learned Dale Eaton killed Lisa through a DNA match and our girls were adults in their 30's by this time. Yet we faced the same emotional roller coaster and each dealing with it differently. Before Eaton was sentenced each of us were asked to write a victim impact statement to be given to the court before Eaton's sentencing. Let me quote in part what my youngest daughter wrote. "When Dale Eaton was finally caught for killing Lisa, it was difficult to handle. When we were told that a DNA match was discovered, I was scared. I didn't know how to process that......and the trial was very difficult learning the all the details, nearly impossible at times......"

Now for another point of view. Dale Eaton's daughter sought me out nearly a year after the trial. As we sat together, she broke into racking sobs and I held her hand as she said this was not the father she remembered growing up with, he was the dad that took her fishing and always trying to teach them right from wrong, etc. She wasn't in denial about the terrible things her father did but emotionally conflicted. I told her that even though we couldn't change what happened or how we felt about him, I wasn't trying to take away her fond memories or even her love for her father that still remained. She was so distraught that she dropped out of college and it would be nearly a year and a half before she returned to finish her degree.

So I guess the point is that Bobbie and Christi need to process this very difficult emotional time on their own terms and time frame just as my daughters needed to. All Mark and Debbie can do as parents, is to be there for them when the time comes. Lastly, allow them to love Marvin even though what he did was very wrong.

I have been reading this thread daily and boy, you guys are are hard to keep up with! Anyway, I've read so many comments about the Baskin children's reactions or lack of them, up to this point. I would like to share what's it like from a first hand prospective. Our circumstances were completely different but the reactions paralell when you are faced with a very traumatic event in your life. When we told Lisa's (Kimmell) sisters (both young teenagers at the time) that she had been murdered. It was so difficult for them emotionally and each reacted differently. Which wouldn't surpise me about the Baskin children. We had to let them do it in their own way and in their own time frame. As parents, all we could do was be there for them when they needed us. Our case also recieved a lot of media attention and that made them feel uncomfortable, as well. A week after the funeral was over, one daughter wanted to go back to school to be around her friends whereas the other couldn't deal with it yet and we home schooled for over a month. So one needed more time and privacy than the other.

14 years later we learned Dale Eaton killed Lisa through a DNA match and our girls were adults in their 30's by this time. Yet we faced the same emotional roller coaster and each dealing with it differently. Before Eaton was sentenced each of us were asked to write a victim impact statement to be given to the court before Eaton's sentencing. Let me quote in part what my youngest daughter wrote. "When Dale Eaton was finally caught for killing Lisa, it was difficult to handle. When we were told that a DNA match was discovered, I was scared. I didn't know how to process that......and the trial was very difficult learning the all the details, nearly impossible at times......"

Now for another point of view. Dale Eaton's daughter sought me out nearly a year after the trial. As we sat together, she broke into racking sobs and I held her hand as she said this was not the father she remembered growing up with, he was the dad that took her fishing and always trying to teach them right from wrong, etc. She wasn't in denial about the terrible things her father did but emotionally conflicted. I told her that even though we couldn't change what happened or how we felt about him, I wasn't trying to take away her fond memories or even her love for her father that still remained. She was so distraught that she dropped out of college and it would be nearly a year and a half before she returned to finish her degree.

So I guess the point is that Bobbie and Christi need to process this very difficult emotional time on their own terms and time frame just as my daughters needed to. All Mark and Debbie can do as parents, is to be there for them when the time comes. Lastly, allow them to love Marvin even though what he did was very wrong.

Whatever Marvin did, whether he was doing right, doing right in his own mind but was entirely wrong, or whether he was downright wrong, he did not treat the grandchildren unkindly. So let them love him.

Debbie may even re-establish some relationship with her father. She has forgiven him, so that may count for something at his trial, where the best he can hope for is a reduced sentence. Debbie's forgiveness will also help with the healing process. But it is extremely unlikely that she will ever trust him again.

The Baskins are supposed to be on the Today show via satellite from California tomorrow morning

Have you seen some of the stories about the Baskins that are circulating on the newspaper forums? Here are a few:


Judge Corlew said he was glad the Maples took the children - one poster said they knew this for a fact.

The Baskins bribed court officials into returning custody of the children to them.

Another variant on the story that Mark and his father molested Bobby in the motel room - in this version, a cat was involved.

It is on public record that Mark Baskin accused his father of molesting his son, but the case was dropped.

The Baskins are supposed to be on the Today show via satellite from California tomorrow morning


Cool I can't wait! I actually have that show already being TIVO'd because I want to watch that Mom of those octoplets. lol

Have you seen some of the stories about the Baskins that are circulating on the newspaper forums? Here are a few:


Judge Corlew said he was glad the Maples took the children - one poster said they knew this for a fact.

The Baskins bribed court officials into returning custody of the children to them.

Another variant on the story that Mark and his father molested Bobby in the motel room - in this version, a cat was involved.

It is on public record that Mark Baskin accused his father of molesting his son, but the case was dropped.


Those news forums are full of crazies. I don't know what makes people want to post comments that are cruel, disrespectful, and completely "out there".

Obviously, those comments have no merit, but the one about the Baskins bribing court officials to return custody of the kids couldn't have happened, imo. One reason the Maples were keeping the kids was because the Baskins were low on money, living in an apartment IIRC, and attending school out of state.

That doesn't exactly sound like folks with enough bribery money to convince the court to rule in their favor.

And the rest of those stories, oh brother! A sex assault involving a cat? Gimme a break. It must have been a dead cat, because no cat I know is going to participate in such a thing without shredding the humans to bits.

I did watch the Baskins interview on the Today show this morning. It may be on their website now, I'm not sure. Anyway they still haven't got to meet or speak with the children. They mentioned there is a psychologist waiting to meet with both sides and hopefully work out a reunion. Mark said something to the effect of "when they surface" so they may even be in seclusion right now. You can't blame them and the parents seem very understanding of everything the kids are going through. Mark also gave credit to "Unsolved Mysteries here on NBC" as he said for airing the story. Apparently Debbie had wanted to speak with her father before he was extradited but he refused. She said she wanted to tell him she forgave him but also there are consequences for his actions. Something like that, I can't remember what she said word for word.

I know that I am going to get attacked for this so I will not bother responding to anything unless I am treated with respect. I providing info from what I understand from my family that is close to both families. I don't believe that this story is getting both sides of the story and keep in mind that this is what is told to me. I know there are legal issues with Marvin taking the kids and I do realize that what was done is illegal. People seem to keep repeating this like no one understands that a law was broken. But lets be real and consider that everything is biased. I don't know the story about the hotel room at all. But from what I understand Marks dad killed a cat in front of Bobby and told him that if he told what he did that he would kill him like he did the cat. The money issue came from the entire Baskin family and not the parents. There is a difference from financial issues with school and getting in trouble and possibly losing your children. When the later happens you are more than likely going to get the help then with something that is a financial personal decision.

I am tired of being lynched for having a different opinion. So please save any talk of trying to persuade me to think differently. This is not an issue where I would change teams. I knew these people and I know the character of my family and they despise Debbie. My family has no hard feelings towards anyone like they do with the Baskins. I am just providing info for anyone that may want to research and find the other side of the story. I am not expecting anyone to care or change their opinion at all. Although I wish that I could but I thats not reality. I just don't want anything I said to be taken out of context. Please be respectful of me and I will share the same respect. I hope Bobby and Christie make it through this as I used to play with them when I was a kid.

Thank you for coming and posting respectfully. Things over on the Murfreesboro Post comments are getting pretty wild.

Obviously there is a difference of opinion between many of us. That's o.k.
I take a lot of it that is posted by both sides as heresay. All I can say in questioning the cat incident is that it sounds way too much like something from the McMartin Preschool case.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMartin_preschool_trial

I guess we'll all have to wait while this sorts itself out and I don't think it's really very helpful to put all of this stuff out to speculate on. I pray that Christi/Jennifer and Bobby/Jonathan agree to meet with their parents and psychologists and begin to sort it out.

Thank you for coming and posting respectfully. Things over on the Murfreesboro Post comments are getting pretty wild.

Obviously there is a difference of opinion between many of us. That's o.k.
I take a lot of it that is posted by both sides as heresay. All I can say in questioning the cat incident is that it sounds way too much like something from the McMartin Preschool case.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMartin_preschool_trial

I guess we'll all have to wait while this sorts itself out and I don't think it's really very helpful to put all of this stuff out to speculate on. I pray that Christi/Jennifer and Bobby/Jonathan agree to meet with their parents and psychologists and begin to sort it out.

I agree I took my posts down. I am sure you can understand it is hard to bite your tongue when someone says something mean about someone you care about. I took the posts down because I know it only creates speculation. I posted here so nothing I said would be taken out of context.

I agree I took my posts down. I am sure you can understand it is hard to bite your tongue when someone says something mean about someone you care about. I took the posts down because I know it only creates speculation. I posted here so nothing I said would be taken out of context.

That's great. I know it is hard, I've had to just not post there at all!
I've posted a few place, but tried to keep it just to verifying the facts, if possible.

Thanks for joining us here, can't promise that there won't be any fireworks, but if we all try, it can go well here.

The story about the dead cat just makes me believe the Baskins all the more. That's a classic fake ritualized sexual abuse story. That's just one more to add to the list of things about the story that place it in the mold of all the other hysterical untrue ritualistic child sexual abuse cases. Innocent people accused and innocent children made to think horrible things happened to them when they never did. THAT is child abuse.

http://www.dnj.com/article/20090209/NEWS01/90209012/0/NEWS01



Marvin appears in court tomorrow.

I've been following the news about this locally and am just so happy for Mark and Debbie that the constant worrying about their two eldest children is finally over. I'm glad that Marvin and Sandra raised two healthy and successful children...although their choices are questionable to me and completely wrong in the eyes of the law it at least shows they loved Bobby and Christi very much. While I hope for reconciliation, I understand if Bobby and Christi do not want to reunite with their parents (since they either actually were molested, or have been told their entire lives that they were) but I hope they make an effort to reunite with Matthew and meet Paul.

Now, admittedly, I know very little about this case other than what "Unsolved Mysteries" showed us, but some of the things that have been slung around on the comments section of the Murfreesboro newspaper article have got me thinking...if Marvin and Sandra knew they couldn't get a fair trial in Murfreesboro (because of Grandpa Baskin's prominence) then why didn't they take the case to court in a different county or even to Kentucky, where Mark and Debbie lived at the time? Or, once Christi and Bobby were abducted, why didn't other members of the Maple family take the Baskins to court in Kentucky and try to get Matthew out since they have knowledge of incidents of abuse that may have occurred? Granted, my knowledge of legal issues is minimal, so perhaps one cannot press charges in a state they don't live in or whatnot, it just seems that Matthew was "left to the wolves" as it were. Sorry, I don't want to offend either side and I don't want to sling mud, I just wish I could get a clear answer.

My blessings to everyone personally involved with this case, and thanks to "inthistwilight" for posting respectfully on this board. For what it's worth I personally don't think Marvin and Sandra were "evil" or "monsters" (as I stated above they did what looks to be a fantastic job in raising Christi and Bobby) I just wish they had gone about things differently.

Innocent people accused and innocent children made to think horrible things happened to them when they never did. THAT is child abuse.

That couldn't be more true. One example of that is the Fells Acres day-care center case here in Massachusetts. In this case, three family members were imprisoned for allegedly abusing children in the day care center they operated. They were all later released from prison (one of them is now deceased), even though they were never officially exonerated.

As for the allegations of any child abuse at the day care center, there was no physical evidence to support any of them. It became increasingly clear that these people were accused of crimes that never happened.

Those comments are getting so ugly out at the Murfreesboro Post that I am not sure I want to read them anymore.

The story about Judge Corlew expressing his approval that the Maples took the grandchildren cannot possibly be true. No judge would ever publicly say a thing like that, whatever his or her private feelings. It sounds like Corlew had better brace himself. His original decisions during the custody battle could well become ammunition at the trial on both sides of the case. Plus, there are people out there who do not approve of his decision to grant interim custody to the Maples and believe it was a major contribution to this whole mess.

By the way, I wonder what Corlew thinks about all this? I don't know if he has said anything publicly. He might, in view of the stories that are flying around.

That couldn't be more true. One example of that is the Fells Acres day-care center case here in Massachusetts. In this case, three family members were imprisoned for allegedly abusing children in the day care center they operated. They were all later released from prison (one of them is now deceased), even though they were never officially exonerated.

As for the allegations of any child abuse at the day care center, there was no physical evidence to support any of them. It became increasingly clear that these people were accused of crimes that never happened.

And in New Zealand, there was the Peter Ellis case. In 1992 Peter Ellis was convicted of abusing children at the Christchurch Civic Creche centre. The case followed the pattern of the satanic ritual abuse panics; originating with an alleged remark made by a child about "Peter's black penis" (what exactly the child said is not clear and no charges were ever laid regarding him) and grew into increasingly bizarre stories which were not substantiated by any witnesses, physical evidence or forensics. Four women workers were also charged but the charges were dropped against them. However Ellis was convicted and served seven years of a ten-year sentence. He is still battling to clear his name, and in recent developments the newly-elected National Government has stated that it is considering an inquiry. Before election, National candidates had promised an inquiry if elected.

Over the years which included appeals, retracted testimony, government reports which got ripped to shreds and a book "A City Possessed" by Lynley Hood, whenever Ellis supporters made a new move, there were threats to lay new charges against Ellis and the four women (this happened six times but no new charges were ever laid) and two of the allegedly abused children stepped forward, saying they were so sick of being called liars. One claims he has very vivid memories of what Ellis did to him, including locking him in a cage. Unfortunately, even if the child did have such memories, doubt will always remain as to whether this is a true memory or implanted by repetitive and improper questioning, and mass hysteria.

For what it's worth I personally don't think Marvin and Sandra were "evil" or "monsters" (as I stated above they did what looks to be a fantastic job in raising Christi and Bobby) I just wish they had gone about things differently.
I don't know whether they are evil or not, but if they did intentionally manipulate the children into making up false accusations of abuse, and did essentially attempt to convince them they were sexually abused by their parents, then what they did was evil and monstrous, and would weigh against them having done a good job raising the children, regardless of how well the kids appear at this point (and, we don't really know at this point because they aren't talking).

According to the latest news report, the kids are still not ready to meet their parents. http://www.mercurynews.com/breakingnews/ci_11665412

"Now, admittedly, I know very little about this case other than what "Unsolved Mysteries" showed us, but some of the things that have been slung around on the comments section of the Murfreesboro newspaper article have got me thinking...if Marvin and Sandra knew they couldn't get a fair trial in Murfreesboro (because of Grandpa Baskin's prominence) then why didn't they take the case to court in a different county or even to Kentucky, where Mark and Debbie lived at the time? Or, once Christi and Bobby were abducted, why didn't other members of the Maple family take the Baskins to court in Kentucky and try to get Matthew out since they have knowledge of incidents of abuse that may have occurred? Granted, my knowledge of legal issues is minimal, so perhaps one cannot press charges in a state they don't live in or whatnot, it just seems that Matthew was "left to the wolves" as it were."

For that matter, why didn't the Maple grandparents simply go straight to the police? Why go through all this rigmarole of a custody battle which will be costly and time-consuming?

By the way, it is "Michael", not "Matthew."

Haven't seen a link to the video:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22425001/vp/29097798#29097798

Hopefully this works (launches you onto a bit of a wonky screen, but makes the whole thing easier to find)

For those on this board who are wondering whether the Baskin kids remember anything or question why they didn't wonder where their parents went, good for you! There's a reason. They remember EVERYTHING. That's why they won't meet with their parents and are standing by their grandfather. They knew he was their grandfather all along. They will stand behind and beside him, as will many people who have known the truth all along. To the one poster on here who remembers playing with them as kids and know about the cat killing incident, you are absolutely correct. The Maples' story will soon be told in a court of law and the Baskins will cringe when the story is told by their own children - the ones they left behind and did not protect. The truth will come out and dozens of people will be there to provide evidence. Marvin and Sandra Maple never threatened the kids' lives - their own parents threatened them if they ever told the truth. Stop believing all the lies. Those threats were recorded.

Marvin Maple DID try to help the youngest grandchild. The courts abandoned those kids and failed them, which happens every day in this country. Shows like Unsolved Mysteries relied on special effects, creepy music and shadowy lighting to sell their ads - not the truth. They were not interested in the Maples' side of the story when they went to Murfreesboro, only in their ratings. Many of you are not interested, either. Luckily, the court will be interested this time when the truth is told.

Come on - do you really think 7 & 8 year old children won't remember the abuse or the therapy at Vanderbilt, provided by their grandparents? Do you think they won't remember that after all of their trauma their parents moved to Kentucky and rented an apartment too small for them to live there? Do you think they won't remember moving in with their grandparents because their own parents did not want them with them during his Seminary training? Do you think they won't remember the abuse given them by Mark's Dad? They remember the ones that were there for them - Marvin and Sandra Maple.

The youngest son was only 4 and would require full time care due to his age and learning disability. The Maples had raised their family and did not have the energy to deal with all of the children. Since the older ones were in school, the Maples took them into their home. They tried to help the youngest through the Kentucky authorities when the kids started telling them what had happened. The courts let them down. The grandparents did not.

That's why the grandkids will support him throughout this, as well as many friends of the Maples who know the truth. Sorry to disappoint those of you who like the dramatic idea that brainwashing has taken place. Didn't happen, despite Debbie's insistence. I see that for what it is - she knows the kids remember, too. Mark's statement that he was scared of what the kids would think about them was so blatantly real. He needs to be scared. I anticipate the hate to start up again, but this time the Baskins won't have the power to squelch their nasty side. The side their children have seen too many times as kids.

If something feels odd to you about the Baskins' story, it's because it isn't true. Sometimes, what you want to believe is simply not true. I've given you facts which will come out in court.

For those on this board who are wondering whether the Baskin kids remember anything or question why they didn't wonder where their parents went, good for you! There's a reason. They remember EVERYTHING. That's why they won't meet with their parents and are standing by their grandfather. They knew he was their grandfather all along. They will stand behind and beside him, as will many people who have known the truth all along. To the one poster on here who remembers playing with them as kids and know about the cat killing incident, you are absolutely correct. The Maples' story will soon be told in a court of law and the Baskins will cringe when the story is told by their own children - the ones they left behind and did not protect. The truth will come out and dozens of people will be there to provide evidence. Marvin and Sandra Maple never threatened the kids' lives - their own parents threatened them if they ever told the truth. Stop believing all the lies. Those threats were recorded.

Marvin Maple DID try to help the youngest grandchild. The courts abandoned those kids and failed them, which happens every day in this country. Shows like Unsolved Mysteries relied on special effects, creepy music and shadowy lighting to sell their ads - not the truth. They were not interested in the Maples' side of the story when they went to Murfreesboro, only in their ratings. Many of you are not interested, either. Luckily, the court will be interested this time when the truth is told.

Come on - do you really think 7 & 8 year old children won't remember the abuse or the therapy at Vanderbilt, provided by their grandparents? Do you think they won't remember that after all of their trauma their parents moved to Kentucky and rented an apartment too small for them to live there? Do you think they won't remember moving in with their grandparents because their own parents did not want them with them during his Seminary training? Do you think they won't remember the abuse given them by Mark's Dad? They remember the ones that were there for them - Marvin and Sandra Maple.

The youngest son was only 4 and would require full time care due to his age and learning disability. The Maples had raised their family and did not have the energy to deal with all of the children. Since the older ones were in school, the Maples took them into their home. They tried to help the youngest through the Kentucky authorities when the kids started telling them what had happened. The courts let them down. The grandparents did not.

That's why the grandkids will support him throughout this, as well as many friends of the Maples who know the truth. Sorry to disappoint those of you who like the dramatic idea that brainwashing has taken place. Didn't happen, despite Debbie's insistence. I see that for what it is - she knows the kids remember, too. Mark's statement that he was scared of what the kids would think about them was so blatantly real. He needs to be scared. I anticipate the hate to start up again, but this time the Baskins won't have the power to squelch their nasty side. The side their children have seen too many times as kids.

If something feels odd to you about the Baskins' story, it's because it isn't true. Sometimes, what you want to believe is simply not true. I've given you facts which will come out in court.

I'm assuming by your post in knowing the mindset of Bobby and Christi that you've spoken with the children at length in the last few weeks to verify that they remember some sort of "alleged" abuse. Would you like to elaborate on your conversations with them? If you haven't spoken with them then I'm guessing you're just retelling a story that may or may not be made up that the family has told you. If thats the case its just speculation on your part, which is what we're doing as well. I will be very glad to hear the "facts" that come out in court as well. As well as the specially trained police officer who was interviewed in the UM segment and stated that Bobby was coached in what to say when he made the allegations.

Sorry, still not buying it. This case has ALL the hallmarks of a false abuse allegation and manipulation, complete with escalating allegations both in the type of abuse and the people involved. It's just like Fells Acres, McMartin, Kern County (California), Kelly Michaels, Gilmer (Texas), etc.

For those on this board who are wondering whether the Baskin kids remember anything or question why they didn't wonder where their parents went, good for you! There's a reason. They remember EVERYTHING. That's why they won't meet with their parents and are standing by their grandfather. They knew he was their grandfather all along. They will stand behind and beside him, as will many people who have known the truth all along. To the one poster on here who remembers playing with them as kids and know about the cat killing incident, you are absolutely correct. The Maples' story will soon be told in a court of law and the Baskins will cringe when the story is told by their own children - the ones they left behind and did not protect. The truth will come out and dozens of people will be there to provide evidence. Marvin and Sandra Maple never threatened the kids' lives - their own parents threatened them if they ever told the truth. Stop believing all the lies. Those threats were recorded.

Marvin Maple DID try to help the youngest grandchild. The courts abandoned those kids and failed them, which happens every day in this country. Shows like Unsolved Mysteries relied on special effects, creepy music and shadowy lighting to sell their ads - not the truth. They were not interested in the Maples' side of the story when they went to Murfreesboro, only in their ratings. Many of you are not interested, either. Luckily, the court will be interested this time when the truth is told.

Come on - do you really think 7 & 8 year old children won't remember the abuse or the therapy at Vanderbilt, provided by their grandparents? Do you think they won't remember that after all of their trauma their parents moved to Kentucky and rented an apartment too small for them to live there? Do you think they won't remember moving in with their grandparents because their own parents did not want them with them during his Seminary training? Do you think they won't remember the abuse given them by Mark's Dad? They remember the ones that were there for them - Marvin and Sandra Maple.

The youngest son was only 4 and would require full time care due to his age and learning disability. The Maples had raised their family and did not have the energy to deal with all of the children. Since the older ones were in school, the Maples took them into their home. They tried to help the youngest through the Kentucky authorities when the kids started telling them what had happened. The courts let them down. The grandparents did not.

That's why the grandkids will support him throughout this, as well as many friends of the Maples who know the truth. Sorry to disappoint those of you who like the dramatic idea that brainwashing has taken place. Didn't happen, despite Debbie's insistence. I see that for what it is - she knows the kids remember, too. Mark's statement that he was scared of what the kids would think about them was so blatantly real. He needs to be scared. I anticipate the hate to start up again, but this time the Baskins won't have the power to squelch their nasty side. The side their children have seen too many times as kids.

If something feels odd to you about the Baskins' story, it's because it isn't true. Sometimes, what you want to believe is simply not true. I've given you facts which will come out in court.


I'm afraid that I will never believe those kids were abused. I totally agree with yuppielawyer that this sound so typical for false allegations it's not even funny. And here when there is a huge motive, such as getting the children, it makes sense. There is such a thing as brainwashing and I'm sure it's easiest to do to children who love and trust you, so even if these kids think that is what happened to them, which is understandable if that's what you've been told over and over for 20 years, I will never believe it... The Maples had a motive for this. And all the excuses I've heard about why Michael was not helped have been BS. I guess since he was too small and had learning disabilities he did not deserve to be helped? Trust me, if that had been my grandchild I would go through hell and high water to make sure that child was never left in that house, not just leave him behind to continue to suffer. But if the abuse was something I made up to get what I wanted, then I wouldn't worry about it. It's because there was no abuse this was something made up by the grandparents to get things their way.

I will use your own words to you here, changing one word.... If something feels odd to you about the Maples' story, it's because it isn't true. Trust me, their story feels much more odd than the Baskins' story does. In fact none of it makes sense, so that street goes both ways.

I do have a serious question for you, since you claim to be very close to this case... were all the other people the Maples accused of abusing the children abusing them as well? Were all these wild things involving more and more people really going on? Do you realize how hard it is to believe the stories that the Maples were claiming? Do you not think that something that widespread would have come out as being true by now? The whole thing makes no sense. I am truly sorry that you and yours seem to be blind to that.

For those on this board who are wondering whether the Baskin kids remember anything or question why they didn't wonder where their parents went, good for you! There's a reason. They remember EVERYTHING. That's why they won't meet with their parents and are standing by their grandfather. They knew he was their grandfather all along. They will stand behind and beside him, as will many people who have known the truth all along. To the one poster on here who remembers playing with them as kids and know about the cat killing incident, you are absolutely correct. The Maples' story will soon be told in a court of law and the Baskins will cringe when the story is told by their own children - the ones they left behind and did not protect. The truth will come out and dozens of people will be there to provide evidence. Marvin and Sandra Maple never threatened the kids' lives - their own parents threatened them if they ever told the truth. Stop believing all the lies. Those threats were recorded.

Marvin Maple DID try to help the youngest grandchild. The courts abandoned those kids and failed them, which happens every day in this country. Shows like Unsolved Mysteries relied on special effects, creepy music and shadowy lighting to sell their ads - not the truth. They were not interested in the Maples' side of the story when they went to Murfreesboro, only in their ratings. Many of you are not interested, either. Luckily, the court will be interested this time when the truth is told.

Come on - do you really think 7 & 8 year old children won't remember the abuse or the therapy at Vanderbilt, provided by their grandparents? Do you think they won't remember that after all of their trauma their parents moved to Kentucky and rented an apartment too small for them to live there? Do you think they won't remember moving in with their grandparents because their own parents did not want them with them during his Seminary training? Do you think they won't remember the abuse given them by Mark's Dad? They remember the ones that were there for them - Marvin and Sandra Maple.

The youngest son was only 4 and would require full time care due to his age and learning disability. The Maples had raised their family and did not have the energy to deal with all of the children. Since the older ones were in school, the Maples took them into their home. They tried to help the youngest through the Kentucky authorities when the kids started telling them what had happened. The courts let them down. The grandparents did not.

That's why the grandkids will support him throughout this, as well as many friends of the Maples who know the truth. Sorry to disappoint those of you who like the dramatic idea that brainwashing has taken place. Didn't happen, despite Debbie's insistence. I see that for what it is - she knows the kids remember, too. Mark's statement that he was scared of what the kids would think about them was so blatantly real. He needs to be scared. I anticipate the hate to start up again, but this time the Baskins won't have the power to squelch their nasty side. The side their children have seen too many times as kids.

If something feels odd to you about the Baskins' story, it's because it isn't true. Sometimes, what you want to believe is simply not true. I've given you facts which will come out in court.


Nope. Nuh uh. As I've said before, i know Debbie and Mark (Michael and Paul too) personally. No way, no how did any abuse take place. They are fine, gentle, loving people. And Michael and Paul are a joy to be around. Delightful young men.

With all of this, obviously, we'll see what comes out in the wash. As far as whose story I've got a funny feeling about--I've never had a suspicion about the Baskins' side, it makes logical sense and checks out. The Maples' side of the story, however, contains many contradictions and makes almost no logical sense when all versions are taken together.

Yes, logic--the true enemy of the Maples and their supporters.

Am I willing to be wrong? Certainly, it happens all the time, and as noted above, this is largely speculation. I hope for Bobby and Christi's sake I'm not, because I can't imagine them having to suffer the abuse it has been alleged by the Maples and their supporters they suffered. And I'm glad in any event they were able to live relatively healthy lives in CA. But I'm very sorry Debbie and Mark had to suffer this way for so many years, if indeed they are innocent as so many of us believe.

One aspect of the Maples' claims that no one has been able to satisfactorily answer for me: It's one thing to allege someone of abuse and satanic ritualism. It's another thing to levy those charges against someone who is religiously Christian. But to accuse someone who is a minister and a schoolteacher and who has seemingly dedicated his entire life to helping and guiding young people--I find that highly outrageous. And to be clear, I say this as someone who is not a Christian and has plenty of skepticism about religion and people in positions of authority.

I am not naive. I know all about the cases of Catholic priests and Protestant leaders (and allegations against leaders in other religious groups), as well as teachers, who engage with inappropriate relationships with underage people. One aspect of those cases is that, unfortunately, that behavior tends to be chronic and repetitive. If the Baskins were abusive people, we would have heard about it from someone besides the Maples by now.

Therefore, it's near impossible for me to think that the Baskins could've abused Bobby and Christie, and nothing in the 20 years since would have come to light about their other two sons or the hundreds of other young people that have been entrusted into Mark Baskin's care as a teacher and minister, or into Debbie's care in her various roles as piano instructor, teacher, and mother. Leads me to think that they are as god-fearing, loving, and genuine as they appear on TV. And I am not someone who comes by that type of opinion lightly or easily.

I wonder what's going to happen when Marvin makes his first court appearance on Tuesday? I don't know if Debbie and Mark can make it there, and it is unlikely that Bobby and Christie can face anything right now. Debbie tried to see her father earlier but he declined for reasons best known to himself. Close Maple family members are visiting him in jail. No doubt they are trying to raise the money for his $1 million bond.

dipahead=MapleFamily=arcetyp

Enough of the "Defend Marvin MapleS" spin machine. You can put whatever screen name you want on these posts, but it is the same folks behind it. Funny... Debbie is willing to forgive her father for kidnapping her kids, but the MapleS spin machine would like to crucify her all over the internet behind various screen names. If you really hate the woman (your relative) that much, at least have the stones to put your own name on the posts.

Kidnapping is a felony no matter how much you want to defend the old man. He'll get his soon enough.

Next. . .

I am struck on the arrogance spewed from the Maples and their supporters who claim to know exactly EVERYTHING that happened and claim to know with absolute certainty what is going through Christi and Bobby's heads at this very minute. You guys talk as if you have spent this entire week with them. It would almost be laughable if it weren't completely sad.

All this talk about how the children will remember all these awful things and that the Baskins will cringe in court and be nervous. Am I honestly supposed to read that and NOT roll my eyes? And apparently now Marvin Maple has tape recorded threats from the Baskins threatening the children's lives if they ever told the "truth?" What's that all about? If so, why wouldn't the Maples have used those recordings in court when they tried to get custody of the children 2 decades ago?

It's truly amazing how every time supporters come out to defend these people, they just end up making the Maples sound worse.

I am a new poster here, but have followed this case closely for 10+ years.

arcetyp, How is it you seem to know for sure what happened? How would you know what is the truth above the rest of us? Were you there? If not, then all you have is hearsay.

I think it is important to note that if Christi and Bobby both are saying they remember these events (which I have a hard time believing they would go around sharing anything that traumatic freely so I doubt any poster knows this from the mouths of Bobby or Christi), it is very possible that they have "false memories" placed into their heads by their grandparents. This is a very real thing and is very easy to accomplish with young children.

You say the Baskins made threats and they were recorded? Then how could any judge get away with giving them back to their parents? Were ALL the people involved in the case "in" on this and just didn't care? Were they ALL being bribed? That's a bit far fetched, don't you think? That all the social workers, all the police, all the lawyers and judges would just allow something this bad to happen to those children and not take action? I just don't think that would happen.

I certainly do not know what was in the hearts and minds of the Maples. Maybe they sincerely thought the children were being molested. Maybe they asked leading questions, the children followed their lead and agreed they were molested, and the Maples unknowingly led them into a lie. I think we all know it's very easy to lead a child into creating stories. This is why police and social workers have protocols as to how to question children. Maybe the Maples did not realize that could happen and inadvertantly created memories that weren't there???

I know there are cases where law enforcement and social workers drop the ball, but I think you will find far more cases in which they were over zealous. That, in fact, is usually the case. Considering the tales got so weird tells me the children were most likely led to say things.

And like it was stated above, molesters don't just stop. They would repeat. The boys the Baskins have now have not been abused and both parents have continually worked with children over the years and nothing has ever come up in that arena either. Just doesn't seem logical.

And sure there are satan worshippers out there, but I wouldn't think a person spending their time and money to go to seminary would be studying satanic worship on the side. Why not get a better paying job and practice satanism instead of going into ministry when you don't even believe in it and doesn't pay squat? Just doesn't add up.

Editing in to say after re-reading your post you say "The Maples' story will soon be told in a court of law and the Baskins will cringe when the story is told by their own children - the ones they left behind and did not protect." Did not protect? I thought they were the perpetrators, not just non-protectors. That statement (and the ones about Christi and Bobby remembering how their parents moved away and did not take them etc) makes me think there is simply a lot bitterness because the Baskins left their children in the care of their grandparents. From your post, it also sounds like you think Mark's dad hurt them, not Mark and Debbie. So why keep them away from Mark and Debbie?

I do hope Bobby and Christi will speak with a counselor and police. I know this has to be devastating for them no matter what the circumstances and I hope they get the help they need to come to terms with all of this.

inthistwilight

You say in your post that your family despises Debbie. Why do they despise her? (Correct me if I'm wrong) In previous posts from your family in another thread, they said Debbie was never accused, that the accusations were against Mark and his father. Why would you all dislike Debbie if this is the case? To me she seems like a very gracious lady with a kind heart.

If something feels odd to you about the Baskins' story, it's because it isn't true. Sometimes, what you want to believe is simply not true. I've given you facts which will come out in court.

Uh-huh.

Well, I tell you what: Maybe when John Bunting.... ERRRR.... Marvin MapleS is in the jug, he can hook up with OJ and they can join forces. OJ can help old Marv tell the court how he is really the hero in this for protecting the kids from being molested by the Baskins, and Marv can help OJ search for the "real killers."

You really can't make this stuff up.

It is extremely unlikely that Debbie or Mark or Mark's father committed any abuse. It is even more unlikely that 2 of them were and more unlikely still that all 3 of them were. We're talking astronomical odds here. Mothers are particularly protective of their children. Extremely unlikely that Debbie would stay with Mark if that was happening, and vice versa.

Also, if Debbie and Mark are the criminals that the pro-Maples people claim them to be, why are they allowing so much publicity of themselves, going on the Today show and such? Don't most criminals go into hiding...interstingly it was the Maples who went into hiding. Debbie and Mark have never dodged authorities, it's the Maples that have.

What bugs me most about the Pro Maple people is that they think the Maples are heroes. Um, excuse me: Heroes don't kidnap children, they don't threaten to kill children, and they don't force children to tell mental health workers lies. Interstingly, the only other person I can think of that kidnapped a child and tried to pass himself off as a hero was Franklin Delano Floyd, and he is one of the sickest people on the planet.

I found this link on Murfreesboropost discussion board that explains what came over the Maples when they took the grandkids.

http://kidshealth.org/parent/general/sick/munchausen.html

It talks about the tendancy for the perpetrator to keep moving to continue the abuse.

It is only talking about the medical version of Munchausen by Proxy Syndrome, but the sexual allegations version of this disease is pretty much the same. I capitalized the most relevant parts:

"If the child lives to be old enough to comprehend what's happening, the psychological damage can be significant. The child may come to feel that he or she will only be loved when ill and may, therefore, help the parent try to deceive doctors, using self-abuse to avoid being abandoned. And so, some victims of MSbP later become perpetrators themselves.

Getting Help for the Child
If Munchausen by proxy syndrome is suspected, health care providers are required by law to report their concerns. However, after a parent or caregiver is charged, THE CHILDS SYMPTOMS MAY INCREASE AS THE PERSON WHO IS ACCUSED ATTEMPTS TO PROVE THE PRESENCE OF THE ILLNESS. If the parent or caregiver repeatedly denies the charges, the child should be removed from the home and legal action should be taken on the child's behalf.

In some cases, THE PARENT OR CAREGIVER MAY DENY THE CHARGES AND MOVE TO ANOTHER LOCATION, ONLY TO CONTINUE THE BEHAVIOUR. Even if the child is returned to the perpetrator's custody while protective services are still involved, the child may continue to be a victim of abuse. For these reasons, it's always advised that these cases be resolved quickly.

I found this link on Murfreesboropost discussion board that explains what came over the Maples when they took the grandkids.

http://kidshealth.org/parent/general/sick/munchausen.html

It talks about the tendancy for the perpetrator to keep moving to continue the abuse.

It is only talking about the medical version of Munchausen by Proxy Syndrome, but the sexual allegations version of this disease is pretty much the same. I capitalized the most relevant parts:

"If the child lives to be old enough to comprehend what's happening, the psychological damage can be significant. The child may come to feel that he or she will only be loved when ill and may, therefore, help the parent try to deceive doctors, using self-abuse to avoid being abandoned. And so, some victims of MSbP later become perpetrators themselves.

Getting Help for the Child
If Munchausen by proxy syndrome is suspected, health care providers are required by law to report their concerns. However, after a parent or caregiver is charged, THE CHILDS SYMPTOMS MAY INCREASE AS THE PERSON WHO IS ACCUSED ATTEMPTS TO PROVE THE PRESENCE OF THE ILLNESS. If the parent or caregiver repeatedly denies the charges, the child should be removed from the home and legal action should be taken on the child's behalf.

In some cases, THE PARENT OR CAREGIVER MAY DENY THE CHARGES AND MOVE TO ANOTHER LOCATION, ONLY TO CONTINUE THE BEHAVIOUR. Even if the child is returned to the perpetrator's custody while protective services are still involved, the child may continue to be a victim of abuse. For these reasons, it's always advised that these cases be resolved quickly.

Are you saying the grandparents may had/have munchausen? It makes sense, but the fact that after they moved they accused nobody else, that we've heard of, of sexually abusing the children. We didn't learn much about it in Psych 101, but I thought it stayed with you, that it wasn't just temporary.

Are you saying the grandparents may had/have munchausen? It makes sense, but the fact that after they moved they accused nobody else, that we've heard of, of sexually abusing the children. We didn't learn much about it in Psych 101, but I thought it stayed with you, that it wasn't just temporary.

Even so, I don't think BOTH Maple grandparents could have Munchausen. I do recall from the UM segment that both Maples and Baskins were ordered to undergo psychological assessments during the custody battle. I don't know if Munchausen by Proxy Syndrome was understood at the time or not, but I would like to know what the results were. Now that Sandra is dead we cannot conclusively determine whether she had this syndrome or not, although some experts may dust off the old psychological reports and re-evaluate them.

There is a good chance Marvin will undergo another psychological assessment, especially if it proves useful for his defence. Marvin may want to bring out the old child abuse allegations, but I doubt his lawyer will allow it. It is more likely the lawyer will strive for a reduced sentence than acquittal. Hmm, I wonder if Marvin's lawyer will consider all this speculation about Munchausen by Proxy Syndrome?

"You say the Baskins made threats and they were recorded? Then how could any judge get away with giving them back to their parents?"

According to one Maple supporter calling themselves blueraider1, the taped threats were not admissible unless both sides knew they were being taped.

Blueraider1 also said that Detective McGowan described Mark Baskin's charges of child abuse against his father as the most clear-cut case she had ever seen - but then the charges had to be dropped when some evidence disappeared.

Yeah, riiiiigghhtt....

"You say the Baskins made threats and they were recorded? Then how could any judge get away with giving them back to their parents?"

According to one Maple supporter calling themselves blueraider1, the taped threats were not admissible unless both sides knew they were being taped.

Blueraider1 also said that Detective McGowan described Mark Baskin's charges of child abuse against his father as the most clear-cut case she had ever seen - but then the charges had to be dropped when some evidence disappeared.

Yeah, riiiiigghhtt....

Hmmmmm.....then why did social workers and other detectives say there was no evidence at all??? All the others say there was nothing, but one says it's clear cut (if that's even true). Wonder which side is biased?

I think as human nature goes, if there was clear cut evidence everyone involved (DA, judge, SW, PD) would all have done what they could through testimony, other "evidence," appeals, changing judges to keep those children away from their parents. Somehow I doubt they would all throw up their hands and say, "Oh well. They won!"

"You say the Baskins made threats and they were recorded? Then how could any judge get away with giving them back to their parents?"

According to one Maple supporter calling themselves blueraider1, the taped threats were not admissible unless both sides knew they were being taped.

Blueraider1 also said that Detective McGowan described Mark Baskin's charges of child abuse against his father as the most clear-cut case she had ever seen - but then the charges had to be dropped when some evidence disappeared.

Yeah, riiiiigghhtt....

And let's not forget that the Baskin's adopted another son. If you have ever gone through the process of adoption (as I have TWICE), you know that you are under major scrutiny from social workers to deem if you are a good family and can be a good parent. Do you really think that they would've been able to get through that process if there was ANY doubt about sexual abuse had been in their family? That is a huge, "NO WAY!". Because of this one thing alone, I know the Baskins are innocent.

And let's not forget that the Baskin's adopted another son. If you have ever gone through the process of adoption (as I have TWICE), you know that you are under major scrutiny from social workers to deem if you are a good family and can be a good parent. Do you really think that they would've been able to get through that process if there was ANY doubt about sexual abuse had been in their family? That is a huge, "NO WAY!". Because of this one thing alone, I know the Baskins are innocent.

Oh but your forgetting this all has a very good reason. The system failed the kids & also failed that adoptive child. The parents got lucky not being punished for abusing there kids & to boot was able to adopt a kid so they could keep on with the abuse. I mean really how anyone could be so blind as to not believe in this whole story... Remember it is everyone elses fault. The Baskins, LE, social workers, adoption agency, etc. :rolleyes:

looks like the old dude got himself a lawyer and a continuance today
http://www.murfreesboropost.com/news.php?viewStory=15327

I don't think Munchausen's by Proxy has anything to do with this case. It's controversial diagnosis in the first place--many mental health professionals don't believe it's a true syndrome, and many others believe it is completely overblown (much like multiple personality disorder). At any rate, this case doesn't bear the characteristics of a Munchausen's case. Munchausen's folks inflict the harm (to self or others) because they like the interaction with the healthcare system and sometimes the attention and sympathy it gets them from others. In this case, the Maples had a very specific motive--to get custody of the kids.

What did the Maples truly believe? It's hard to know. There's one interpretation that they simply wanted custody of the kids and so they coached the kids and made up the allegations. It's also possible that, as with many of the false ritual sexual abuse cases, it began with a statement by one of the children that had an innocent explanation, but was taken by the Maples as a statement that indicated sexual abuse. Next thing you know, they take the kids to one of those horrible therapists that had no idea how to properly interview a potential child abuse victim, and memories were implanted (it can be done very subtly and unintentionally), and every time there is a new accusation, the child is given comfort and reward, and before you know it, it's child sacrifice and hidden tunnels and dead animals. Oh, and, of course, anyone in any official capacity like a social worker, police officer or prosecutor who doubts the accusations is now a part of the ring of satanic child sex abusers.

Oh but your forgetting this all has a very good reason. The system failed the kids & also failed that adoptive child. The parents got lucky not being punished for abusing there kids & to boot was able to adopt a kid so they could keep on with the abuse. I mean really how anyone could be so blind as to not believe in this whole story... Remember it is everyone elses fault. The Baskins, LE, social workers, adoption agency, etc. :rolleyes:

Do you think in the light of all this, if the other two boys were abused, they would stand behind their parents? One is an adult now and the other 16. They know what their parents were accused of. That would be an open door to come fwd themselves. Just like once a person of trust (teacher, coach etc.) is revealed by one coming fwd, the others feel safe to step out also. If Michael was abused, do you think he'd still be living at home OR allow his little brother to live there? Again, just doesn't make sense.

Today's local paper says that the Baskins have gone home to Georgia without seeing the kids.

Also, just for clarification, the allegations were never that the parents were child molesters. The allegations were that Mark Baskin's father was abusing Bobby.

That's not what the UM episode says. And if that's true then why take the children from their parents who were going to take the children to a different state than the senior Baskin lived in? Why taint the children's view of their parents? Once again, it just doesn't add up.

Wikepedia does not mention the false allegations form of MSbP, (Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy) but here are a couple of links that do.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1029260

http://www.ipt-forensics.com/journal/volume5/j5_3_1.htm

We cannot know for sure since Sandra is dead but from what I gather she was a control freak. Maybe she had BPD. She maybe just wanted to keep the grandkids and took the ultimate revenge on Debbie and her family. BPD is kind of complicated to figure out. Marvin might have just been so enmeshed with his wife he would go along with anything. Of course, I'm just speculating. I just feel so sorry for the Baskins and the children. Look how much they missed out on. :(

One poster wrote this:
"I knew these people and I know the character of my family and they despise Debbie. My family has no hard feelings towards anyone like they do with the Baskins."

It reminds me of an episode of "Star Trek" called "The Day of the Dove". An extraterrestial flourecent blob randomly attaches itself to the ship. The crew members started imagining insults from each other and the flourecent blob grew bigger and stronger by the day. Pretty soon the individual crew members were imagining false memories. Of course Spock figured out what was going on when he realized that records proved that that Chekov never even had a brother who had died at the hands of the other race in the civil war somewhere. When they all forced themselves to pretend to appoligize to each other in order to survive, the blob started to shrink, and losing its sourse of nourishment (hate) it eventually detached and floated off into space.

Of course the analogy of that space parasite is to Satan, that great beast. In ancient languages the word Satan actually translates into "The Accuser". The two terms are used interchangeably sometimes.

I wonder if in modern time we have lost the original meaning to the concept of possesion by "The Accuser" (the devil)

That paracitic florescent cloud desperately wants to survive, and it must do what it must do to stimulate us into feeding it.

It is my understanding that Borderline Personality Disorder is pretty easy for experts to diagnose. They give tests on different days but ask the same questions in different ways. The responder sees themselves as perfect and cannot give the same answer from day to day to the same questions asked in different ways for whatever selfish motives. I have seen the computer printout results for someone who was off the scare for borderline. She also had MSbP.

If Sandra Maples had this mental sickness the psychologists would know with great certainty. I understand she was psychologically evaluated but I do not know to what degree. That is not the first test they give you, its only after many other tests point to giving the BPD test that a person would take this test.

One poster wrote this:

That paracitic florescent cloud desperately wants to survive, and it must do what it must do to stimulate us into feeding it.

And I for one am going to try to stop feeding it.

looks like the old dude got himself a lawyer and a continuance today
http://www.murfreesboropost.com/news.php?viewStory=15327

The lawyer's name is Gregory Reed. Reed is appealing to reduce the bond which he says is the maybe the highest he has ever seen in Rutherford County. Does anyone get the impression that Rutherford County is trying to tell Marvin something?

We cannot know for sure since Sandra is dead but from what I gather she was a control freak. Maybe she had BPD. She maybe just wanted to keep the grandkids and took the ultimate revenge on Debbie and her family. BPD is kind of complicated to figure out. Marvin might have just been so enmeshed with his wife he would go along with anything. Of course, I'm just speculating. I just feel so sorry for the Baskins and the children. Look how much they missed out on. :(

Strange if Sandra was a control freak. Debbie has said that prior to the trouble she and her mother were very close, and she trusted her mother. If she had any impression her mother was a control freak I doubt she would have allowed her mother to look after her children.

One poster wrote this:
"I knew these people and I know the character of my family and they despise Debbie. My family has no hard feelings towards anyone like they do with the Baskins."

Another wrote:
"It reminds me of an episode of "Star Trek" called "The Day of the Dove". An extraterrestial flourecent blob randomly attaches itself to the ship. The crew members started imagining insults from each other and the flourecent blob grew bigger and stronger by the day. Pretty soon the individual crew members were imagining false memories. Of course Spock figured out what was going on when he realized that records proved that that Chekov never even had a brother who had died at the hands of the other race in the civil war somewhere. When they all forced themselves to pretend to appoligize to each other in order to survive, the blob started to shrink, and losing its sourse of nourishment (hate) it eventually detached and floated off into space."

Kirk and the Klingons got rid of the creature by laughing it out of the ship. And some of the stuff I have been hearing is almost laughable.

dipahead=MapleFamily=arcetyp

Enough of the "Defend Marvin MapleS" spin machine. You can put whatever screen name you want on these posts, but it is the same folks behind it. Funny... Debbie is willing to forgive her father for kidnapping her kids, but the MapleS spin machine would like to crucify her all over the internet behind various screen names. If you really hate the woman (your relative) that much, at least have the stones to put your own name on the posts.

Kidnapping is a felony no matter how much you want to defend the old man. He'll get his soon enough.

Next. . .

Debbie's forgiveness for her father amid all this ugliness makes me begin to understand what Jesus meant about returning good for evil and turning the other cheek.:angel:

Any proof the mother was a control freak before the abduction?
I don't think its inconsistant for Debbie to get along with her mother fine before the blowup. Maybe Debbie was an enabler for her moms veiwpoints prior to that point and maybe started to have her own viewpoints. An object like a computer will always say what you tell it to say, but kids eventually grow up and some parents cannot handle that. They would rather smash the malfunctioning toy. I know of a couple of cases of a mother ganging up her kids against the oldest kid. When the oldest was no longer available, then on to ganging everyone up against the next one and so on like clockwork, 1, 2, 3, 4, untill all move out. She has to have a focus of hate to gang up people agaisnt.
Debbie was the oldest, and a borderline only makes waves when she has a solid foundation. The younger two girls maybe never developed their own personas enough by then to challenge the mother so we will never know ifnthey were next in line. Imagine if Christie or Bobby had challenged Sandra as kids.
Evidence if Sandra was a control freak might be if she steared Marvin away from HIS family and friends after the marriage. Only the observant ones might have noticed if it was gradual. Did Debbie and sisters play much more with their cousins on the mother side of the family and not the cousins on Marvins sideof the family? (those cousins are delinquents, or those cousins have colds, or our kids have nothing in common with those cousins)
Marvin might not be the control freak if you figure he couldn't hold it together once Sandra, finally choosing his own aquaintances who then turned him in.

People say there is a support network of the Maples clan, but that might be the Sandra clan. What is Sandras maiden name? I'll bet its them more than the Maples clan. I would be curious to know which of Sandras clan is now in contact with Christie and Bobby.

It might not be sandra with it, but marvin. Weren't wives supposed to go along with their husbands no matter what when sandra was growing up and married?

Misspestilence,
That is possible. But if it is MSbP, women are the exibitors of this malady about 95% of the time. To have both a husband and wife with this syndrome must be about one in a million, since it is the man only 5% of the time.

Besides, I don't think that they would be compatible if they both had it. The reason is that the one who is MSbP does this behaviour to gain adulation from the spouse. I can't imagine them both trying to gain admiration from each other at the same time in this same way, but then again I think it happened during the McMartin case. The males role is just to be the supporting heroe.

For some reason I have never heard of a male borderline either. I think that firemen who set fires so they can rescue kids out of a burning building and get a medal from crying gratefull mothers have something similar. It is called factatious disorder then

People say there is a support network of the Maples clan, but that might be the Sandra clan. What is Sandras maiden name? I'll bet its them more than the Maples clan. I would be curious to know which of Sandras clan is now in contact with Christie and Bobby.

Sandra's maiden name was Kuykendall if that helps you out.

Thank you. If I refer to them in the future I will state "The Maples/Kuykendall" clan to be more acurate.

Sandra's maiden name was Kuykendall if that helps you out.

Hmmm. I wonder if any of her ancestors are buried in Smyrna cemetery on the Dodson's Branch Road, outside the Cookeville city limits, in Putnam County, TN.

The Kuykendall's have some of the oldest graves in that cemetery, where instead of traditional headstones, they have long stones raised up over the length of the graves sort of in the shape of a teepee.

A bunch of my near and distant ancestors are buried there. I visit there as often as possible.

Seems like I might even have some papers around here relating to the Kuykendall's settling in that area...

Franklin, i didn't mean both of them had it, just marvin. and that sandra, being a "proper wife" went along with whatever he told her to do, which is, i believe, someone of her time would be raised to do. But if your statistic is correct, as i'm going to assume it is, then there is a tiny chance he may have had it. But it was just a suggestion =)

Misspestilence,
You might be right. There are a number of postings on the subject from athe middle of the board on down at this site:
http://www.murfreesboropost.com/news.php?viewStory=15245

You just have to reverse the words female with male when you read the postings to visualize your possible scenario and that could be the case

Misspestilence,
I just went ahead and cut and pasted it below for reference:

What these kidnapping grandparents have is "Munchausen by Proxy syndrome". It is caused when a woman needs to feel important by manufacutring illnesses in her children, sometimes even poisining them in order to appear nurturing and selfless when she puts on a show of caring for the children she is secretly injecting with feces or whatever to keep them bedridden. It often takes the form of false sexual allegations as well. The enabling men involved are called "inverted narcissists". The man who is manipulated into assisting in the crime doesn't realize what he is doing (he can be a doctor or a policeman as well. The husbands are often in the military/air-force for some reason) He so much wants to feel heroic, to help the "Damsel in Distress", that no one can ever reason with him. Although he may seem less guilty, he is just as selfish in exploiting the children for his narcissistic needs to feel important. Even when these women see themselves on video doing these deeds they will never admit it. Their personalities are too split in two. It's extremely hard for the male co-conspirator to admit it either, but he can when faced with video evidence, which is rarely caught on hidden camera. They will have many naive supporters beacuse they overcompensate by putting on a show of being like Mother Teresa in charity and goodness.

When "Maples" wife died, literally a part of him died with her. He would not have had the inherant ability to twist reality on his own, she would keep his mind warped. Their daughter Debbie, if she looks back at HER childhood will likely remember her mother isolating the father from his family and friends as well. Quandary: My friends don't belive my stories. Solution: 1) Either stop lying, or 2) continuously rotate in a new group of friends. Its a big world and you will never run out of people who will buy into BS., and you just lose those who won't.

The child victim intuitively knows how to manipulate the mother into tranforming into the "mother Teresa" personality, from the alternative "Hell on Wheels" personality. If the child acts sick when the mother is in a stormy mood he will feel safe in bed (and she wont have to drug him into being her prop for the role she wishes to play that day to boost her weak ego)

The Grandmother, Mrs. "Maples" upon becoming a fugitive would never have expressed the full potential of her evil because she was always skating on thin ice. From that point on she wouldn't have made too many waves.

Found out about a wild streak running through the Kuykendall's all the way back to the revolutionary war. This feller served in the Civil War, and didn't think a thing about leaving a wife and kids behind in another state to start a new life with a new family. Sounds like that runs in the Kuykendall line too.

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=14087365

Interesting link TracyLynn. It seems that fighting on opposite sides in civil wars runs in their family. Here is a quote from newspaper about sister against sister:

But the law finally caught up with Marvin Maple.

"He's been gone 20 years. It took 20 years to locate him," said Cold Case Detective Bill Sharp.

Maples has two other daughters in addition to Debbie, the mother of his grandkids, and police say they both are siding with their father. One of the daughter's lives in Murfreesboro. She declined to talk to NewsChannel 5.

Others claiming to be family members have blogged online in defense of Maple.

Interesting link TracyLynn. It seems that fighting on opposite sides in civil wars runs in their family. Here is a quote from newspaper about sister against sister:

But the law finally caught up with Marvin Maple.

"He's been gone 20 years. It took 20 years to locate him," said Cold Case Detective Bill Sharp.

Maples has two other daughters in addition to Debbie, the mother of his grandkids, and police say they both are siding with their father. One of the daughter's lives in Murfreesboro. She declined to talk to NewsChannel 5.

Others claiming to be family members have blogged online in defense of Maple.

I really wonder how the Maples were so easily able to convince Debbie's sisters to turn against her like that. They REALLY must have sounded convincing to them if they told them Mark and Debbie really were child molesters/satanic worshippers.

I guess that's what Debbie meant in the Unsolved Mysteries segment when she mentioned that she doesn't have a family anymore. How that woman hasn't let the last 20 years destroy her soul is beyond me. Her faith and inner strength is simply outstanding to say the least.

I don't think this link has been posted yet.

http://www.tennessean.com/article/20090210/COUNTY07/90210010

It mentions how Mark and Debbie left San Jose without a reunion with their kids and they understand it could be a while before they are ready to see them. Notes have been left at both of their apartments and messages have been left on their answering machines. The cell phone numbers of Michael and Paul were also left for them should they want to speak with their brothers if they don't want to talk with their parents.

Those two current photos of Christi and Bobby that have been all over the news are their drivers licence photos. Those are the only current photos Mark and Debbie have of their kids.

There's a few quotes from Anita Flagg listed as well. She mentions that the Maples didn't accuse Mark and Debbie of being part of a satanic cult until AFTER their accusations of sexual abuse were disproven because of no evidence. (Convenient timing, huh?) She also mentions how elated she is that the children were found before she retired.

Here is a link (at the bottom of page) to a group that tries to monitor the activities of a crazy radical group whos purpose is to help people like Marvin hide.
And by the way, that green florecent cloud moved en-masse to affix itself to that discussion board en-masse with all new names but identical postings. I suppose they will float away from there as well when they get laughed out.
They withdrew all their postings on Murfreesboro site as well:
http://www.murfreesboropost.com/news.php?viewStory=15245


http://underwatch.wordpress.com/2009/02/05/advice-to-jennifer-bunting-jonathan-bunting-and-marvin-maple/#comment-70

Here is a link (at the bottom of page) to a group that tries to monitor the activities of a crazy radical group whos purpose is to help people like Marvin hide.
And by the way, that green florecent cloud moved en-masse to affix itself to that discussion board en-masse with all new names but identical postings. I suppose they will float away from there as well when they get laughed out.
They withdrew all their postings on Murfreesboro site as well:
http://www.murfreesboropost.com/news.php?viewStory=15245


http://underwatch.wordpress.com/2009/02/05/advice-to-jennifer-bunting-jonathan-bunting-and-marvin-maple/#comment-70

Everyone on both sides is saying that the truth will come out at the trial. But I am beginning to wonder with this green fluorescent cloud floating around. ohno: The signs are ominous that the trial will turn out to be as ugly as the original custody battle, perhaps even more so because there are far more people who know about the case than ever before and the sides they are taking are becoming ever more entrenched. If Marvin opts for a full-blooded trial instead of an easier option such as a plea-bargain the battle lines will be even more intense.ohno: It will be even worse if he brings out those old child/satanic abuse charges.

But Marvin will face serious problems.

First, the days of satanic ritual abuse hysteria are long gone and the court will treat such claims with extreme skepticism unless Marvin has hard evidence.

Second, we don't know if Bobby and Christie will be up to testifying and if so, what their testimony will be. So we currently don't know if they will testify to the effect that they were being abused by their parents. But if they do, there will be huge debate as to the reliability of their testimony and it may even be declared inadmissible.

Third, I doubt Marvin's lawyer will be willing to pursue the satanic/child-abuse angle as that has been pretty much discredited despite what some people think.

Fourth, Marvin hasn't got his wife anymore. If our theories about her are correct, Marvin's drive against Debbie will not be what it used to be.

Here is a link (at the bottom of page) to a group that tries to monitor the activities of a crazy radical group whos purpose is to help people like Marvin hide.
And by the way, that green florecent cloud moved en-masse to affix itself to that discussion board en-masse with all new names but identical postings. I suppose they will float away from there as well when they get laughed out.
They withdrew all their postings on Murfreesboro site as well:
http://www.murfreesboropost.com/news.php?viewStory=15245


http://underwatch.wordpress.com/2009/02/05/advice-to-jennifer-bunting-jonathan-bunting-and-marvin-maple/#comment-70

I checked the site in question out. Here is another variation on what blueraider1 said, and already it is under fire:

Wynn Says:
February 8, 2009 at 11:56 pm

The brother and sister remember everything, which doesn’t bode well for their parents. The reason why Michael wasn’t taken was because he lived with the Baskins. Mark Baskin wanted to go to seminary school and the apartment they rented was too small, so they asked Debbie’s parents to take in their kids while he went to school. Apparently, it was inconvenient for them to take care of their own children.

Since the youngest child was not yet school age, and had a learning disability, they first said no and then relented. They took the two oldest kids because they were in school and wouldn’t require 24 hour care. Taking the third child would have been too hard on them.

The Maples did contact the Kentucky authorities to try and help Michael after they were told by the two older children of the problems. The Maples took these kids to get counseling at Vanderbilt hospital. One detective said that it was the clearest case of abuse she had seen, but you don’t see that quote in the news. The media doesn’t even know what they are writing about - it’s sad. This is a family tragedy, not a witch hunt.

Mark Baskin filed a complaint against his own father when confronted with the evidence. The Baskins knew it and did not protect their children. They did not even rent a place big enough to raise all of their children. Why not? That’s the question you need to be asking. The Maples left their entire family behind to protect those kids because they promised the kids they would. The sacrifice they made for their grandkids was immense.

The Baskins then sued the Maple family, including their own siblings for a million dollars because they wanted to know where their children were, thinking that the Maple family knew. They did not and the case was dismissed. They were and are after money.

In due time, Jonathan and Jennifer will tell their story and their grandfather’s case will be dismissed. Just as the lawsuit against Debbie’s own family.

This thread (and this entire past week) has been pretty intense, so I thought I should post this snarky article from Cracked.com about the 6 Most Insane Moral Panics in American History (http://www.cracked.com/article_17040_p2.html). The top three have to do with accusations of Satanism.:p

Also, has anyone read the book Satanic Panic by Jeffrey Victor? It's been on my reading list for a while, but I just haven't gotten around to it. The events surrounding the Baskins have reminded me that I need to read it!

This thread (and this entire past week) has been pretty intense, so I thought I should post this snarky article from Cracked.com about the 6 Most Insane Moral Panics in American History (http://www.cracked.com/article_17040_p2.html). The top three have to do with accusations of Satanism.:p

Also, has anyone read the book Satanic Panic by Jeffrey Victor? It's been on my reading list for a while, but I just haven't gotten around to it. The events surrounding the Baskins have reminded me that I need to read it!

I just had a look, thank you for posting it! It makes a welcome change of pace on the thread. Talk about black humour; a story about teenagers getting high on sewage, and so many people believed it that it caused a panic? :lol:

Here is a link (at the bottom of page) to a group that tries to monitor the activities of a crazy radical group whos purpose is to help people like Marvin hide.
And by the way, that green florecent cloud moved en-masse to affix itself to that discussion board en-masse with all new names but identical postings. I suppose they will float away from there as well when they get laughed out.
They withdrew all their postings on Murfreesboro site as well:
http://www.murfreesboropost.com/news.php?viewStory=15245


http://underwatch.wordpress.com/2009/02/05/advice-to-jennifer-bunting-jonathan-bunting-and-marvin-maple/#comment-70

Here's another article posted by underwatch. They are hoping that the Baskin children and Marvin Maple can be persuaded to provide information about these underground railroads so other parents can be reunited with their hidden children.

http://underwatch.wordpress.com/2009/02/10/who-helped-marvin-maple-hide-for-20-years/

The Baskin case is definitely an inspiration for people who have also had their children abducted, brainwashed, disappeared into underground railroads. It will be even more inspiring in that it was solved after 20 years. This will provide extra hope to those who haven't seen their children for years and must despair that their cases will ever be solved after so many years of going nowhere.

Furthermore, there are the parents who were wrongly accused of child abuse or even satanic worship in bitter custody disputes. LaDonna Morrow, who was very nearly framed by her own mother, Pat Farmer, for abusing her son Jared, and then seeing him kidnapped by Pat, will be one. She and Jared must be watching this case very closely, wincing with recognition, as will be other parents who were also wrongly accused of child abuse and even now must feel the lingering taint of suspicion.

Lastly, Debbie Baskin was not alone in seeing her children kidnapped by her own parents. Not long after I first watched the Baskin segment I watched an Oprah Winfrey episode called "My Mother Won't Give Me My Baby Back." Oprah had been getting hundreds of letters from parents who say they let their mother look after their kid/s for a period for some reason or other - and then the mother refuses to give the kid/s back. So although the Baskin case may be labelled unusual - UM described it as one of the most unusual cases they had ever profiled - it was not unique.

Maples has two other daughters in addition to Debbie, the mother of his grandkids, and police say they both are siding with their father. One of the daughter's lives in Murfreesboro. She declined to talk to NewsChannel 5.

Others claiming to be family members have blogged online in defense of Maple.

I get the impression that the family member(s) who keep trolling here and elsewhere are probably fairly young themselves, either Christie and Bobby's ages or younger. They've grown up hearing the grandparents' accusations for the past twenty years, so naturally they're just going to keep regurgitating the same old stuff, which, as others have already said, reminds me an awful lot of those daycare sex-abuse trials (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day_care_sex_abuse_hysteria) of the 80s. I mean, some of the coincidences are almost too perfect.

The speculations of possible mental illness on one of the grandparents' parts are interesting, too. It reminds me of this case (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMartin_preschool_trial), in which the accusing parent was a schzophrenic and an alcoholic. She accused not only the daycare workers of molesting her child, but her ex-husband as well. The whole mess led to the longest and most expensive trial in US history.

I have already mentioned that Marvin's lawyer is Greg Reed. The prosecutor in this case is Assistant District Attorney Allen Hale. Presiding judge is Justice Howard Wilson. So far the only witnesses named are Sharp, Goodwin and Karen Hornsby.

Interesting link TracyLynn. It seems that fighting on opposite sides in civil wars runs in their family. Here is a quote from newspaper about sister against sister:

But the law finally caught up with Marvin Maple.

"He's been gone 20 years. It took 20 years to locate him," said Cold Case Detective Bill Sharp.

Maples has two other daughters in addition to Debbie, the mother of his grandkids, and police say they both are siding with their father. One of the daughter's lives in Murfreesboro. She declined to talk to NewsChannel 5.

Others claiming to be family members have blogged online in defense of Maple.


I have checked this out at:
http://www.newschannel5.com/Global/story.asp?S=9822908

The article says our friend Marvin claims to be innocent and doesn't think he did anything wrong. :eek: I wouldn't know exactly what he means by that, but if he is planning to bring out those old child abuse allegations his lawyer could be in for real problems. Do you know the old adage: the man who defends himself has a fool for a client?

And this is what members claiming to be his family have blogged online have said:
"This one-sided media story is substantiated only by what the Baskins say and what was found in Rutherford County's legal system. This was/is at best a flawed, understaffed, overworked court system in Murfreesboro or at worst a prejudiced and corrupt local legal system with close friends of the Baskins." :rolleyes:

Sounds like the green fluorescent cloud is filtering into mainstream newspaper reports now. It could be interesting to see what the feedback will be when the public at large read such comments and see them broadcast on the newsreport which you will find in the link.

I would suggest that certain members of the Maple/Kuydendall clan lawyer up as they may be charged with aiding and abetting and obstruction of justice. No wonder they're having to bash the Baskins so hard. Some of them know they're guilty of a crime too.

Instead of fighting and bashing, why dont they plead with ol man to plea bargain and get lawyers for themselves.

Since the youngest child was not yet school age, and had a learning disability, they first said no and then relented. They took the two oldest kids because they were in school and wouldn’t require 24 hour care. Taking the third child would have been too hard on them.


This really bothers me. So let me get this straight...it's too hard on them to take the youngest in because of his age and learning disability, because that meant he wasn't in school? Correct?

But they are completely able bodied enough to kidnap their 2 grandchildren, go into hiding and travel/move across the country in order to dodge authorities? THAT is their excuse for why they left a young child to be supposedly further sexually abused by his parents, and left at the mercy of them and their satanic cult?? :rolleyes:

And of course, that argument makes even less sense, as the Maples homeschooled Jennifer/Christi and Jonathan/Bobby. So...they were home all of the time, too...

This really bothers me. So let me get this straight...it's too hard on them to take the youngest in because of his age and learning disability, because that meant he wasn't in school? Correct?

But they are completely able bodied enough to kidnap their 2 grandchildren, go into hiding and travel/move across the country in order to dodge authorities? THAT is their excuse for why they left a young child to be supposedly further sexually abused by his parents, and left at the mercy of them and their satanic cult?? :rolleyes:

And of course, that argument makes even less sense, as the Maples homeschooled Jennifer/Christi and Jonathan/Bobby. So...they were home all of the time, too...

Complete BS in IMO. That is one of the reasons I do not believe there story. I just cannot get over how they expect other people to believe this story there telling. How dumb do they think people are.

This really bothers me. So let me get this straight...it's too hard on them to take the youngest in because of his age and learning disability, because that meant he wasn't in school? Correct?

But they are completely able bodied enough to kidnap their 2 grandchildren, go into hiding and travel/move across the country in order to dodge authorities? THAT is their excuse for why they left a young child to be supposedly further sexually abused by his parents, and left at the mercy of them and their satanic cult?? :rolleyes:

And of course, that argument makes even less sense, as the Maples homeschooled Jennifer/Christi and Jonathan/Bobby. So...they were home all of the time, too...

Exactly! This is what I meant when I said every time the family members try to show their support for Marvin and Sandra, they only end up making them sound worse. They aren't doing Marvin any favors.

Exactly! This is what I meant when I said every time the family members try to show their support for Marvin and Sandra, they only end up making them sound worse. They aren't doing Marvin any favors.

Exactly what I figured would happen. Marvin's lawyer will probably beg them to stop as he will realise this sort of thing is going to harm, not help, his client's defence. I feel sorry for the lawyer if this sort of bashing continues.

I would suggest that certain members of the Maple/Kuydendall clan lawyer up as they may be charged with aiding and abetting and obstruction of justice. No wonder they're having to bash the Baskins so hard. Some of them know they're guilty of a crime too.

Instead of fighting and bashing, why dont they plead with ol man to plea bargain and get lawyers for themselves.

Someone suggested on this thread that the Maple family is engaging in so much Baskin bashing because they are trying to protect the Maple family name. Respectability is everything in a small town, so whiffs of scandal can be really damaging.

There may be other reasons why they are bashing the Baskins. We don't know.

Below is a cut and paste from this message board below from a poster called "God is Good". IF it is is not a fake posting, it totally supports the typical pattern of Borderline PD woman controlling the husband.

http://www.topix.net/forum/source/wtvf/T0Q6SDKI9233DRGKS/p2

"The parents were proven innocent. I used to go over to their house to play with Bobby and Christi.These were my friends. I have known this family longer than any of you. The grandfather wasn't the problem it was the grandmother. She was crazy and the grandfather listened to every word she said. That doesn't matter because he was in on it. The Maples were wrong. There is NO EXCUSE for kidnapping a child. The mother did not have contact with family at all. They have lived in trama for 20 years. It just really upsets me that people pass judgement on the parents, when the parents were found innocent."

Someone suggested on this thread that the Maple family is engaging in so much Baskin bashing because they are trying to protect the Maple family name. Respectability is everything in a small town, so whiffs of scandal can be really damaging.

There may be other reasons why they are bashing the Baskins. We don't know.

Well, if that's the case, they arent doing the Maple name any favors.

As for other reasons they may be bashing the Baskins...i can't imagine. If I didnt personally know the Baskins, I might consider this. But I do know them, and there is no way on earth anyone could make me believe they are guilty of these crimes.

Below is a cut and paste from this message board below from a poster called "God is Good". IF it is is not a fake posting, it totally supports the typical pattern of Borderline PD woman controlling the husband.

http://www.topix.net/forum/source/wtvf/T0Q6SDKI9233DRGKS/p2

"The parents were proven innocent. I used to go over to their house to play with Bobby and Christi.These were my friends. I have known this family longer than any of you. The grandfather wasn't the problem it was the grandmother. She was crazy and the grandfather listened to every word she said. That doesn't matter because he was in on it. The Maples were wrong. There is NO EXCUSE for kidnapping a child. The mother did not have contact with family at all. They have lived in trama for 20 years. It just really upsets me that people pass judgement on the parents, when the parents were found innocent."


If this person is genuine, they could be a major witness in the trial.

Well, if that's the case, they arent doing the Maple name any favors.

As for other reasons they may be bashing the Baskins...i can't imagine. If I didnt personally know the Baskins, I might consider this. But I do know them, and there is no way on earth anyone could make me believe they are guilty of these crimes.

One reason they may be bashing the Baskins is religious differences. According to one source we have agreed to keep private, Sandra's parents turned against Debbie because she was a Baptist.

"One reason they may be bashing the Baskins is religious differences. According to one source we have agreed to keep private, Sandra's parents turned against Debbie because she was a Baptist"

If that was the case, does anyone know what religion the Maples/Kuykendalls were? They could have been atheist as well. What were Mr. and Mrs. Maples proffessions before retirement?

"One reason they may be bashing the Baskins is religious differences. According to one source we have agreed to keep private, Sandra's parents turned against Debbie because she was a Baptist"

If that was the case, does anyone know what religion the Maples/Kuykendalls were? They could have been atheist as well. What were Mr. and Mrs. Maples proffessions before retirement?

The Maples were atheists so I don't think it matters what religion Debbie was.

The Maples were atheists so I don't think it matters what religion Debbie was.

We presume Sandra's parents were Church of Christ since that is the church mentioned in Mrs K's obituary.

According to our private source, Sandra Maple gave up on religion and decided that if she was on her way to hell, she would get the most out of the life she had, regardless of whom she hurt.

We presume Sandra's parents were Church of Christ since that is the church mentioned in Mrs K's obituary.

According to our private source, Sandra Maple gave up on religion and decided that if she was on her way to hell, she would get the most out of the life she had, regardless of whom she hurt.

That's right. My bad. Thanks for the correction.

What ridiculous logic was Sandra Maples using? Since she was church of Christ, and her daughter turned Baptist, she got that pissed at her? What that heck was that all about? There's not a huge difference between the two religions. I can see it causing problems in the family, but not to the extent the Maples carried it.

Then, after judging her daughter's religious decisions, Sandra herself decided to slap God in the face, commit a huge crime against nature, against her own family, her own child, her own grandchildren, and God, and make the best of her physical life before heading off to hang out with satan for eternity?

She was either an idiot or insane. Who committed the bigger sin, the christian who changed denominations or the christian who dropped her religion (while accusing her daughter of satanism) in favor of satisfying her material/earthly desires to steal her grandkids to raise as her own?

I always thought the motive for the abductions was that Sandra was a vain woman who became attached to the two older kids while keeping them for such an extended period of time. She then wanted to live her second youth by raising them as her own. The reason she didn't take the third child with her was either because he was not "perfect" (learning disability) or because she simply hadn't become as close to him as the other kids because he wasn't living with her. Grandpa was controlled by her stronger personality and did what he was told. Of course this is jmo, and I could be completely wrong.

What ridiculous logic was Sandra Maples using? Since she was church of Christ, and her daughter turned Baptist, she got that pissed at her? What that heck was that all about? There's not a huge difference between the two religions. I can see it causing problems in the family, but not to the extent the Maples carried it.

Then, after judging her daughter's religious decisions, Sandra herself decided to slap God in the face, commit a huge crime against nature, against her own family, her own child, her own grandchildren, and God, and make the best of her physical life before heading off to hang out with satan for eternity?

She was either an idiot or insane. Who committed the bigger sin, the christian who changed denominations or the christian who dropped her religion (while accusing her daughter of satanism) in favor of satisfying her material/earthly desires to steal her grandkids to raise as her own?

I always thought the motive for the abductions was that Sandra was a vain woman who became attached to the two older kids while keeping them for such an extended period of time. She then wanted to live her second youth by raising them as her own. The reason she didn't take the third child with her was either because he was not "perfect" (learning disability) or because she simply hadn't become as close to him as the other kids because he wasn't living with her. Grandpa was controlled by her stronger personality and did what he was told. Of course this is jmo, and I could be completely wrong.


According to our private source, Sandra gave up on religion, but used Debbie's Baptist faith as a weapon to turn the maternal grandparents (who presumably were Church for Christ) against her so they would not help her find Bobby and Christie. Don't ask me how that was supposed to work. It could be some southern thing or something about the great-grandparents' religious views.

Just looking at the pic of Sandra & Marvin Maple from the UM segment I believe, she looks like she could be a very vindictive type of a person if she wants to be & someone you don't wanna get on the bad side with. Was somthing about her eyes in that pic that just doesnt sit right with me.

At the bottom is a definition and a link to the wikepedia definition of "Satan".

People think that all Christian religions are pretty much the same. But really, every church is different. I would say that most pastors are pretty much see the Bible as a tool to promote their own egos, in hopes of being seen as Gods themselves.

Attend a good Bible study and you will learn that pastors should back off from doing too much "accusing", because the original definition to the word "Satan" is "The Accuser".

Maybe through Marks theolgy studies Debbie learned of the real Jesus, and saw some errors in the ways of the Mothers particular church, or just the errors in the mother ways.
Most churches are only following human vanity, or even Satan without even knowing it. Most pastors waste your time "accusing" for the whole sermen, and fueling that hate which provides sustinence to nourish Satan so he can grow ever stronger. So who was Grandmother Sandra really following? God or Satan?

Debbie was striking out in her own direction philosophically, rejecting the teachings of her youth. Sandras unChristian ways could not survive the scrutiny in the new Christian environment that was unfolding. Sandra was terrified of losing her hold over the rest of the family as well, especially Marvin
The destructive path Sandra initiated against Debbie temporarily distracted everyone from the rightiousness of Debbies new direction. Sandra never started out planning to kidnap her grandchildred, it just gradually got out of hand untill that conclusion.

Satan didn't provide the hate that Sandra had for her daughter, Satan did FEED off of that hate though. Satan only provided the paranoia that distorted Sandras mind to generate more hate for Satan to feed off of. And Satan certainly sucked up hate nourishment from the Baskins and the whole town as well as their revulsion back towards Sandra amplified their hatred the other way.

Incorporating Marvin into a controversial upheaval would have enmeshed them together more and increased her hold over him. Marvin's arrogent need to feel important by assisting Sandra drove him to cross the line into unrighteousness.

When the state determined the grandparents would return the kids to the parents, the Maples panicked at the thought that continuing therapy for the kids would reveal even more of what Maples had been doing, brainwashing the kids. The false projected image would officially be shattered on the records. So they made sure the therapists couldn't continue working with the kids.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satan

Etymology

Satan as seen in Codex Gigas.The word 'Satan', and the Arabic شيطان "shaitan", may derive from a Northwest Semitic root śṭn, meaning "to be hostile", "to accuse."[1] An alternative explanation is provided by the Hebrew in Job 1:7. When God asks him whence he has come, Satan answers: "From wandering (mi'ŝuṭ) the earth and walking on it" (מִשּׁוּט בָּאָרֶץ, וּמֵהִתְהַלֵּךְ בָּה). The root ŝuṭ signifies wandering on foot or sailing. 'Satan' would thus be "the Wanderer".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satan

From Wikipedia again:
In the Bible
Where Satan does appear in the Bible, he plays the role of the Accuser.

According to the article on 'Satan' in the Jewish Encyclopedia, Satan's role as the accuser is found:

Etymology

Satan as seen in Codex Gigas.The word 'Satan', and the Arabic شيطان "shaitan", may derive from a Northwest Semitic root śṭn, meaning "to be hostile", "to accuse."[1] An alternative explanation is provided by the Hebrew in Job 1:7. When God asks him whence he has come, Satan answers: "From wandering (mi'ŝuṭ) the earth and walking on it" (מִשּׁוּט בָּאָרֶץ, וּמֵהִתְהַלֵּךְ בָּה). The root ŝuṭ signifies wandering on foot or sailing. 'Satan' would thus be "the Wanderer".

Wikipedia says Satan is "The Accuser" and "The Wanderer". Sandra and Marvin made wicked false accusations of sexual abuse and became wanderers, just as the bible describes of Satan.

I am starting to understand how Debbie can forgive her parents, the Maples. If she is a Christian and if she believes there is a Satan, then she would realize that Satan did literally take possession of them. They weren't bad people, just not sofisticated enough to realize what was happening. Rather than hate them, a Christian should pray for them and offer understanding and a helping hand, even turn the other cheek when feasable.

Once at a bible study someone asked:
"How can one keep the commandment "honor thy parents" when the parents are rotten. What about those parents who chained up the little girl and were starving her untill the brother called 911 and turned them in? He wasn't honoring his parents."

The answer was this: "those parents were sinners. By turning them into the police he was helping them stop the sins. There was a small possibility that the parents could get help or medication to mend ther ways. This teenager was setting things in motion to lead them back to rightiousness." The bible doesn't say "obey your parents" it says "honor your parents." So he had indeed honored them.

The children of the Maples/Kuykendall's whos parents are illegally helping these kidnappers shouldn't hesitate to help their parents by bringing to light what they are misguidedly doing. And to Bobby and Christie the same holds true. You can only honor your grandfather by guiding him in the right direction.

Holy cow... 24 pages? This thread is one hot potato... It's gonna take me a week to catch up! :)

Holy cow... 24 pages? This thread is one hot potato... It's gonna take me a week to catch up! :)

Yes, I am amazed at the length the thread has reached, and it is only a little over a week old! Imagine the length it will be by the time Marvin's preliminary hearing startes on 17 March - much less by the time of the trial itself. That's assuming we get to a full trial and there isn't some plea bargain or something on 17 March.

"I am starting to understand how Debbie can forgive her parents, the Maples. If she is a Christian and if she believes there is a Satan, then she would realize that Satan did literally take possession of them. They weren't bad people, just not sophisticated enough to realize what was happening. Rather than hate them, a Christian should pray for them and offer understanding and a helping hand, even turn the other cheek when feasable."

I believe Debbie forgave her parents because she did not want her anger towards them to affect her parenting of her remaining son and adopted son. But I can see the philosophy behind what you are saying. Debbie's even hoping that her father can be restored as a full person.

Just looking at the pic of Sandra & Marvin Maple from the UM segment I believe, she looks like she could be a very vindictive type of a person if she wants to be & someone you don't wanna get on the bad side with. Was something about her eyes in that pic that just doesn't sit right with me.

They do say a person's eyes are the window to their soul...

Come to think of it, I always thought something was a bit witchy-looking about Sandra Maple from that photograph. Mind you I could have been prejudiced by the UM segment.

I have checked this out at:
http://www.newschannel5.com/Global/story.asp?S=9822908

The article says our friend Marvin claims to be innocent and doesn't think he did anything wrong. :eek: I wouldn't know exactly what he means by that, but if he is planning to bring out those old child abuse allegations his lawyer could be in for real problems. Do you know the old adage: the man who defends himself has a fool for a client?


Marvin Maple doesn't think he did anything wrong......now that is rich! I would love to hear his "side" of the story, and whether or not his lawyer is going to rehash the same accusations of the Baskins and the entire legal system. It really is too bad that Sandra Maple is not here to face the music as well. I believe that she was the driving force behind the kidnappings, and that she was calling the shots once they fled with the kids.

You really have to love how the Baskins look going into all of this. Even though Debbie had her kids taken from her for 20 years, she had not only the strength to endure, but the strength to forgive her father for what he and his wife did. And as for Marvin....he shunned her and is not apologizing for anything. Add that to the Maple's seemingly outrageous accusations and excuses, and you have yourself one heck of a case.

I cannot blame Christi and Bobby for initially being hesitant to talk to their real parents, but I hope that they open some dialogue with them or their brothers once some of the smoke clears. Thanks to all of you posters who are constantly providing updates. Keep them coming!

Originally posted by peachysquirt21:
Just looking at the pic of Sandra & Marvin Maple from the UM segment I believe, she looks like she could be a very vindictive type of a person if she wants to be & someone you don't wanna get on the bad side with. Was somthing about her eyes in that pic that just doesnt sit right with me.


~ I thought the EXACT same thing peachysquirt21. In fact, I have thought that everytime I have looked at her picture over the years. Something about her face doesn't sit right with me either. Can you imagine what it was like being raised by her if you were one of the kids? :eek: They seem to be loyal to the grandparents but who knows what is really going through their minds.

The new issue of People magazine (February 23 issue) is now available on newsstands. It has an article about the Baskins on page 85.

It was mentioned in the article that Sandra Maple's death resulted from cancer.

You know I think another thing that points to the Maples doing this to be vindictive instead of trying to protect their grandchildren is the length of time they kept them away. If they were really just trying to protect Bobby and Christi from being raised from "abusers" they would have kept them away until they were legal adults. Here we are 10 years later and they were still being hid so it was obviously a case of spite. I do realize they knew they were wanted for kidnapping but they could have probably contacted their family privately and it wouldn't have became public knowledge. If it was cancer that took Sandra's life I don't understand (since the Baskins kids were now adults) why they wouldn't have wanted to reconnect with their other children and grandchildren before she died. I don't think it was fear of jail I think it was because they were spiteful and vindictive people who wanted to keep the Baskins from ever seeing their children again.

CrystalDawn, there is a phenomenon called "enmeshment" when a caregiver isolates and controlls the subject to extremes. Constant and obssesive controling of every thought process of the child. The kids do not have veiwpoints of their own, or when growing up even thoughts of their own.

I knew of a Munchausen SbP woman who taught her small children all about Gaurdian Angels.
"A gaurdian angel is an angel who comes to me and tells me what you are thinking and who you are talking to when I am not around".
What really was happening of course was she evesdropped on the kids when they whispered to each other and bribed them with candy to tell on each other during her almost Sybil type interrogations.

The children could only understand her to be a Goddess. The three O's. Omnipresent (evesdropping) Omnipotent (a child beater) and Omniscient (all knowing). They had no concept of self, and they had no feeling of missing what they never had.

I wonder if Bobby and Christie are just empty shells by now in some dimensions of their personalities.

Also, CrystalDawn, when enmeshment occurs the childs viewpoints, likes and dislikes are IDENTICAL to the caregivers. It's almost like the child BECOMES the caregiver to ensure the immortality of the caregiver.

I read somewhee that Brahm Stoker's novel was a symbolic analogy to narcissism. Only in the real world a narcissist gets his sustainance by sucking out the happiness and individuality of the victim. Hopefully not all kids have a vulnerable dispossition and maybe some can be well rounded in the end, but I doubt it.

If the Brahm Stoker analagy is accurate, then the victim will eventually hate seeing in others the qualities that he cannot and will not ever have, and he will continue the cycle and perpetrate the same abuses onto the next generation, striving to feel a sense of worth by sucking out all the happiness of others rather than by positive strategies which have never been learned in childhood.

The new issue of People magazine (February 23 issue) is now available on newsstands. It has an article about the Baskins on page 85.

It was mentioned in the article that Sandra Maple's death resulted from cancer.

I have been checking Louise Hay's book, "Heal Your Body" and it lists correlations between physical ailments and psychological problems. Under cancer it says:

"Deep hurt. Longstanding resentment. Deep secret or grief eating away at the self. Carrying hatreds. 'What's the use?'"

If we knew what kind of cancer Sandra had it could be even more telling.

Oh, and this is what it says for stroke: "Giving up. Resistance. 'Rather die than change.' Rejection of life."

All the more reason for Debbie to forgive her parents. Harbouring hatred and anger towards them would have manifested in a physical illness.

CrystalDawn, there is a phenomenon called "enmeshment" when a caregiver isolates and controlls the subject to extremes. Constant and obssesive controling of every thought process of the child. The kids do not have veiwpoints of their own, or when growing up even thoughts of their own.

In knew of a Munchausen SbP woman who taught her small children all about Gaurdian Angels.
"A gaurdian angel is an angel who comes to me and tells me what you are thinking and who you are talking to when I am not around".
What really was happening of course was she evesdropped on the kids when they whispered to each other and bribed them with candy to tell on each other during her almost Sybil type interrogations.

The children could only understand her to be a Goddess. The three O's. Omnipresent (evesdropping) Omnipotent (a child beater) and Omniscient (all knowing). They had no concept of self, and they had no feeling of missing what they never had.

I wonder if Bobby and Christie are just empty shells by now in some dimensions of their personalities.


If it is indeed something like that, would they have felt that way if their grandparents had simply died?

Link + Video (http://www.wsav.com/sav/news/local/article/parents_of_kidnapped_kids_back_in_vidalia_not_giving_up_on_a_reunion/9534/)

After a whirlwind of a week, a Vidalia couple is home and getting back into the swing of their daily lives. Last Wednesday Mark and Debbie Baskin left for San Jose, California. They hoped to reunite with their two grown children; they hadn’t seen them since they were abducted 20 years ago. After years of their story playing in the media, even on Unsolved Mysteries, an article last month led to a solid tip. The children’s maternal grandfather is being charged with kidnapping; his wife died a few years ago.

The couple’s trip did not go they way they hoped: the children were not ready for a reunion. But the Baskins say they will not give up.

Happy moments found their way into the Baskin family the past 20 years, but still, you could say the couple never woke up from that frightening nightmare.

“Every day since they’ve been gone I’ve prayed that God would give them a good life, that they’d be happy, that they’d have joy,” Debbie Baskin said.

But finally, last week, it was a dream come true. Their children found alive and well. The parents flew straight to see them. What came next- another blow.

“You’re heartbroken,” Debbie said, describing the feeling of coming home without an interview. “I mean, our hope was…I didn’t expect them to run to us and rub us around the neck like you would want…but I was hoping to speak to them, show them pictures of their lives and some things we had brought. But at the same time we have information we didn’t have a week and a half ago. We didn’t know they were alive.”

Mark and Debbie feel they exhausted every effort during their six-day stay in San Jose.

“Interviews both on the phone and in person for newspaper and TV shows, Mark Baskin said.

“We went by their homes and left notes on their doors,” Debbie Baskin said.

Now home in Georgia, they are back to the routine they know so well. Just wait and see, pray, and hope for best.

Not only did Christie and Bobby not want to meet with their parents but Debbie’s father, Marvin Maple also refused to see Debbie. She says she wanted to let him know she forgives him for what he did.

Check back to WSAV.com for updates as this story develops.

Thanks for the link, Zoneboy.

After watching the video, I think you can tell that at least one huge weight has been lifted off of Mark and Debbie's shoulders. They know that Christi and Bobby are alive. That alone has to give them some kind of comfort even though their kids don't want to meet with them right now.

We just have to continue to hope and pray that after some time has passed, they will both want to meet up with their parents and begin the healing process.

Link + Video (http://www.wsav.com/sav/news/local/article/parents_of_kidnapped_kids_back_in_vidalia_not_giving_up_on_a_reunion/9534/)

After a whirlwind of a week, a Vidalia couple is home and getting back into the swing of their daily lives. Last Wednesday Mark and Debbie Baskin left for San Jose, California. They hoped to reunite with their two grown children; they hadn’t seen them since they were abducted 20 years ago. After years of their story playing in the media, even on Unsolved Mysteries, an article last month led to a solid tip. The children’s maternal grandfather is being charged with kidnapping; his wife died a few years ago.

The couple’s trip did not go they way they hoped: the children were not ready for a reunion. But the Baskins say they will not give up.

Happy moments found their way into the Baskin family the past 20 years, but still, you could say the couple never woke up from that frightening nightmare.

“Every day since they’ve been gone I’ve prayed that God would give them a good life, that they’d be happy, that they’d have joy,” Debbie Baskin said.

But finally, last week, it was a dream come true. Their children found alive and well. The parents flew straight to see them. What came next- another blow.

“You’re heartbroken,” Debbie said, describing the feeling of coming home without an interview. “I mean, our hope was…I didn’t expect them to run to us and rub us around the neck like you would want…but I was hoping to speak to them, show them pictures of their lives and some things we had brought. But at the same time we have information we didn’t have a week and a half ago. We didn’t know they were alive.”

Mark and Debbie feel they exhausted every effort during their six-day stay in San Jose.

“Interviews both on the phone and in person for newspaper and TV shows, Mark Baskin said.

“We went by their homes and left notes on their doors,” Debbie Baskin said.

Now home in Georgia, they are back to the routine they know so well. Just wait and see, pray, and hope for best.

Not only did Christie and Bobby not want to meet with their parents but Debbie’s father, Marvin Maple also refused to see Debbie. She says she wanted to let him know she forgives him for what he did.

Check back to WSAV.com for updates as this story develops.

So near, and yet so far... :crying:

I reckon this must be one of the toughest cases in FBI history, AMW history and Rutherford County history. On a scale of 1 to 10 it would be fascinating to know just how tough this case was, but only the detectives who worked on the case can tell us.

Without a doubt, solving it must be one of the proudest moments in Detective Sharp's career, AMW history and UM history. Anita Flagg and Karen Hornsby are no doubt relieved and delighted the Baskin case is finally solved, since it must have been the one of the lowest points in their careers. But no doubt it is a real kudos to the Cold Case Department of Rutherford County.

No word as far as I know, from Robert Corlew, as to what he thinks about the Baskin case finally being solved. It would be nice to know, but it probably wouldn't be appropriate for him to say anything publicly. But it is fair to assume that he is pleased as well.

According to our private source, Sandra Maple gave up on religion and decided that if she was on her way to hell, she would get the most out of the life she had, regardless of whom she hurt.

Or who she took with her. This makes the Satanism allegations even more ironic.

It is well worth everyone's time to listen to the episode of the radio program This American Life on the case of Bobby Dunbar. http://www.thislife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?episode=352 It was just rerun, presumably because the book is forthcoming soon. It is a fascinating true story of a boy about the age of Bobby Baskin becoming a willing participant in his own abduction and brainwashing to the point of creating false memories in himself. It goes on to show how he created a successful adult and family life despite some of the most traumatic childhood experiences.

This thread (and this entire past week) has been pretty intense, so I thought I should post this snarky article from Cracked.com about the 6 Most Insane Moral Panics in American History (http://www.cracked.com/article_17040_p2.html). The top three have to do with accusations of Satanism.:p

Also, has anyone read the book Satanic Panic by Jeffrey Victor? It's been on my reading list for a while, but I just haven't gotten around to it. The events surrounding the Baskins have reminded me that I need to read it!

Thanks for that. Here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_Popular_Delusions_and_the_Madness_of_Crowds is another great source about people with wacked beliefs, even if some of its facts have been challenged.

I reckon this must be one of the toughest cases in FBI history, AMW history and Rutherford County history. On a scale of 1 to 10 it would be fascinating to know just how tough this case was, but only the detectives who worked on the case can tell us.

Without a doubt, solving it must be one of the proudest moments in Detective Sharp's career, AMW history and UM history. Anita Flagg and Karen Hornsby are no doubt relieved and delighted the Baskin case is finally solved, since it must have been the one of the lowest points in their careers. But no doubt it is a real kudos to the Cold Case Department of Rutherford County.

No word as far as I know, from Robert Corlew, as to what he thinks about the Baskin case finally being solved. It would be nice to know, but it probably wouldn't be appropriate for him to say anything publicly. But it is fair to assume that he is pleased as well.

Anita Flagg is beyond relieved that this case was finally solved. And she's extra happy that it happened before she retired. She's been approached on the street countless times over the years by people asking her if the Baskin children had been found yet.

Karen Hornsby, no doubt must be very happy as well. She took part of the blame for the kidnapping because she didn't believe Mark and Debbie's fears that the Maples would take the children and run...which ended up happening very soon after. I think I read she will be one of the key witnesses at Marvin's trial.

Yeah, I'd love to hear what Corlew has to say about all of this. I often wonder if he ever regrets taking custody away from Mark and Debbie despite the fact he never once talked with them OR the children.

According to our private source, Sandra gave up on religion, but used Debbie's Baptist faith as a weapon to turn the maternal grandparents (who presumably were Church for Christ) against her so they would not help her find Bobby and Christie. Don't ask me how that was supposed to work. It could be some southern thing or something about the great-grandparents' religious views.
Some sects within the Church of Christ hold a belief that theirs is the "true" church and is the only way to Heaven. Coming from a family composed of many former members of that particular brand of the CoC, I could easily see how that could become a point of major contention (or at least an excuse).

It is well worth everyone's time to listen to the episode of the radio program This American Life on the case of Bobby Dunbar. http://www.thislife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?episode=352 It was just rerun, presumably because the book is forthcoming soon. It is a fascinating true story of a boy about the age of Bobby Baskin becoming a willing participant in his own abduction and brainwashing to the point of creating false memories in himself. It goes on to show how he created a successful adult and family life despite some of the most traumatic childhood experiences. I second this. It's a really fascinating story, and so sad. It illustrates a pretty basic fact of life that can also apply to the Baskin case: people can get really really angry when they are threatened with truth. In this case too, upholding a lie became more important than upholding the family.

I second this. It's a really fascinating story, and so sad. It illustrates a pretty basic fact of life that can also apply to the Baskin case: people can get really really angry when they are threatened with truth. In this case too, upholding a lie became more important than upholding the family.

Yes, and as pointed out in your post referencing wild rumors, how hard it sometimes is to get a small number of people to believe a true thing and how easy to get a large number of people to believe wild improbabilities. Here is how the book I cited earlier put it: http://robotics.caltech.edu/~mason/Delusions/epd_marvelous.html

And just between you and me and the board, if I were those two kidnapped grandkids, I would worry that maybe I know to much. The fanatic fringe groups that aquire the false identifications etc for them all those years don't really care about Bobby and Christie, the necessary props for the extremists drama. They only care about propagating their false heroism identities. Now Bobby and Christie are just in the way.

I don't think that the Maples/Kuykendall pack of enablers would like to pay millions in legal fees and jail time either. Those grandkids had better tow the line, its all Debbies fault for making wave. If only she should have just left it alone.

You know what they say about computers. "Garbage in Garbage out". The same holds true for the way the Maples taught the grandkids charactor.

When you download into a computer a subset of data, the computer will give an answere BASED ON THAT SUBSET OF DATA.

But then when you download into a computer a different subset of data, the computer will provide THE OPPOSITE CONCLUSION to the issue in question.

Both answers provided by the computer are correct given the limited subset of data allowed for the computer to process.

The only problem is this: Computers are objects, and people aren't. The Maples isolated their grandkids like crazy and programed them like machines, isolating them from the world around them so that all news and knowlege would be sorted first by Sandra and Marvin before filtering through to Bobby and Christie. They would then parrot back the desired answers for anything that came along.

They were programmed (brainwashed) to the point that THEY BECAME Sandra and Marvin in engaging themselves in the false identity stunts for starters.

Advice to Baskins: Get back to your regular routine. You've spent all the time and money and done all the work that anyone could expect. The deciever has such a head start on you all, it will be a while till and if things sort themselves out. If you let Satan take any more from you, by dwelling over the unfairness and pain, then you are empowering Satan, taking your energies away from your remaining minor 16y/o son, church obligations, etc.

Can they make the kids testify if there is a trial? I don't know how that works. I am assuming they can force them to. I can't get this off my mind. I feel awful for the Baskins and Bobby and Christi. I look at my daughter and we are so close and I cannot imagine losing her. I bet Sandra is turning over in her grave.

Can they make the kids testify if there is a trial? I don't know how that works. I am assuming they can force them to. I can't get this off my mind. I feel awful for the Baskins and Bobby and Christi. I look at my daughter and we are so close and I cannot imagine losing her. I bet Sandra is turning over in her grave.

Ha! I hope that old biddy is spinning in her grave, and I hope it's a damned uncomfortable ride.

I'm sure some of our legally educated members will be able to tell us about forcing someone to testify. But as far as I know, if the court supoena's you to show up and talk to the judge in a trial, you gotta show up or he can put you in jail for contempt, if he feels so inclined.

Bobbie and Christie are adults now, nearing 30 years old. It's not like the court would be forcing children to endure trauma in providing testimony at court, if it's decided they will be called, and I assume they will be.

Anita Flagg is beyond relieved that this case was finally solved. And she's extra happy that it happened before she retired. She's been approached on the street countless times over the years by people asking her if the Baskin children had been found yet.

Karen Hornsby, no doubt must be very happy as well. She took part of the blame for the kidnapping because she didn't believe Mark and Debbie's fears that the Maples would take the children and run...which ended up happening very soon after. I think I read she will be one of the key witnesses at Marvin's trial.

Yeah, I'd love to hear what Corlew has to say about all of this. I often wonder if he ever regrets taking custody away from Mark and Debbie despite the fact he never once talked with them OR the children.

Corlew defended his decision on the UM programme, saying the safety of the children was paramount, or words to that effect. I don't know what else, if anything, he has said publicly on the matter. There is a story going around that he said he was glad the Maples abducted the children, but I can't imagine any judge saying a thing like that. Probably the green fluorescent cloud again....

I just remembered this article which may shed more light on the Maples' conduct. Here it is:


A REAL FAMILY FEUD - Grandparents hiding 2 kids in custody fight
The Atlanta Journal and The Atlanta Constitution - Monday, July 16, 1990

ROME, Ga. - Debbie Baskin 's eyes well up with tears when she describes a recurring dream that reflects her desperation and frustration: She sees her two missing children and calls to them, but they pay no attention. Mrs. Baskin has lived a nightmare since March 1989, when her parents, who accuse her and her husband of devil worship, disappeared with Bobby, 8, and Christi, 9. The Baskins say they lost their children long before they disappeared 16 months ago, when the grandparents began wea ving a web of spiteful lies. The grandparents, Sandra and Marvin Maple of Murfreesboro, Tenn., had been given temporary custody of the children a year before their disappearance. The Maples told a judge the Baskins were members of a satanic cult and that they sexually abused their children.


ROME, Ga. - Debbie Baskin 's eyes well up with tears when she describes a recurring dream that reflects her desperation and frustration: She sees her two missing children and calls to them, but they pay no attention.


Mrs. Baskin has lived a nightmare since March 1989, when her parents, who accuse her and her husband of devil worship, disappeared with Bobby, 8, and Christi, 9.


"It's a terrible uncertainty that never ends," said Mrs. Baskin, who moved from Kentucky to Rome last October when her husband, Mark, took a job selling insurance. "It would have almost been easier if they were tragically killed. There would have been an end."

The Baskins say they lost their children long before they disappeared 16 months ago, when the grandparents began weaving a web of spiteful lies.


The grandparents, Sandra and Marvin Maple of Murfreesboro, Tenn., had been given temporary custody of the children a year before their disappearance. The Maples told a judge the Baskins were members of a satanic cult and that they sexually abused their children.


A detective who investigated the case said no evidence of abuse was found.


"The children's stories were inconsistent and got increasingly bizarre, like they were repeating something someone told them," said Detective Carolyn McGowen of the Rutherford County Sheriff's Department in Tennessee, where the Maples have been charged with kidnapping.


The Maples fled with the children when a Juvenile Court judge appeared ready to order them returned to the Baskins, Detective McGowen said.


The children's abduction has been traumatic for the Baskins' third child, Michael, 7, who is confused and lonely, Mrs. Baskin said. "We're trying for him to have a normal life," she said. "It's hard."

The case has appeared twice on the TV show "Unsolved Mysteries" and has attracted more than 800 calls. Investigators have confirmed that the Maples and the two children lived in Santa Clara, Calif., last summer. The four are still believed to be on the West Coast, changing identities and locations to thwart the FBI, which is seeking the Maples on charges of interstate flight to avoid prosecution.


Mrs. Baskin thinks activist Faye Yager played a part in her parents' flight and their earlier campaign to destroy the Baskins in court.


"There are records that my parents called Faye Yager two or three times in February [1989]," Mrs. Baskin said. Police confirmed the calls.


Mrs. Yager, whose Atlanta-based underground network hides allegedly abused children, was recently charged with kidnapping and cruelty to children for allegedly intimidating a child to lie about sexual abuse and satanism in an unrelated case. She has denied the allegation.


Mrs. Yager said she talked to the Maples "several different times" before they fled with the Baskin children, "but they are not a part of my underground," she said. "I gave them advice on what I'd do if they were my children. I told them step by step. If they've followed my direction, they've done a good job."

Mrs. Yager said she believes the Maples' allegations about the Baskins but said she has not talked to the elder couple since before their disappearance and does not know where they are.


Mrs. Baskin, who has two sisters, said her mother always dreamed of having a son and thinks that longtime obsession is behind the events.


"It's strange. Mother and I were always close," Mrs. Baskin said. "I really trusted and adored my mother. Maybe too much."

LongLiveUm asks:
"Can they make the kids testify if there is a trial? I don't know how that works. I am assuming they can force them to. I can't get this off my mind. I feel awful for the Baskins and Bobby and Christi. I look at my daughter and we are so close and I cannot imagine losing her. I bet Sandra is turning over in her grave."

The grandkids are pushing 30y/o, so it would be inconcievable that law enforcement would allow them to withold evidence that pertains to other kidnapped children that may be scattered throughout the country, who could be saved by this information. It would be painful for them perhaps to give testimony that would be detrimental to Marvin, but just like every other citizen they have a civic responsibility to the society they live in, and that responsibility can be enforced by law enforcement. (if indeed this is the society in which they wish to live). It's one thing to live secretly as a supporter of terrorists and fanatic networks. I cannot imagine ANYONE doing so openly. The "Buntings" won't have the strength to be so brazen, even if that was their inclination, and society has ZERO tolerance for protectors of child abusers and kidnappers. Maybe the network will spirit them out of the country if they know too much. They need to tell as much as they can as quickly as they can to be safe from the extremist fanatics.

I think if they tried to pull what their aunts did and protected the kidnapping network, the FBI would have a few tricks up there sleeves. Its ok for the "Buntings" to ask to be left alone after they are eighteen, Its nobodies buisiness. But all this identiy theft could be looked at more carefully if the FBI wants to play hardball to crack that extremist network of lunatics.

It probably just depends on who scares the "Buntings" more, the lunatics or the FBI. Who can make their life harder or easier.

Then they're in danger from both sides. How angry are the extremists at Marvin and Bobby for cracking? Marvin is safer off behind bars.

Can they make the kids testify if there is a trial? I don't know how that works. I am assuming they can force them to. I can't get this off my mind. I feel awful for the Baskins and Bobby and Christi. I look at my daughter and we are so close and I cannot imagine losing her. I bet Sandra is turning over in her grave.

Just one thing we seem to have overlooked: the Baskin kids are getting legal help for their grandfather - so it would make for a rather awkward situation if they were compelled to testify against him, wouldn't it?

Just one thing we seem to have overlooked: the Baskin kids are getting legal help for their grandfather - so it would make for a rather awkward situation if they were compelled to testify against him, wouldn't it?

I suppose it would, but I think that they would have to testify if called on wouldnt they? I dont know if you are familiar with the case against Barry Bonds, but I believe that his trainer has spent almost a year in jail for contempt because he has refused to testify against Bonds. I cant imagine that the kids would want to risk jail time.

According to the local news Marvin Maple has posted a $100,000 cash bond and is currently on house arrest. Use this link to see NewsChannel 5. Under "Today's Videos" select Marvin in the orange jumpsuit.

http://www.newschannel5.com/

According to the local news Marvin Maple has posted a $100,000 cash bond and is currently on house arrest. Use this link to see NewsChannel 5. Under "Today's Videos" select Marvin in the orange jumpsuit.

http://www.newschannel5.com/

Thanks for letting us know that. I am quite disgusted! I can't believe that someone on the run for the last 20 years even gets bond! If he thinks what he did to those kids isn't kidnapping, maybe he should consider the insanity defense like Chichester because he's nuts...:rolleyes:

The story appeared on Friday night's newscast but I have not been able to find any other news story reporting his release from jail. I thought this would have been news worthy enough to be covered by the Murfreesboro Post and other local news agencies. Are they keeping this quiet to protect Marvin? I consider him to be a credible flight risk.

I wouldn't be surprised in the least to see him leave again. I wonder who all put up money to get the $100,000 together to post his bail. Do you think they used his own house in California or was it relatives in Tennessee?

If friends and relatives put up that cash, and he takes off again, it serves them right to lose it all, for bailing out a child kidnapper who's been on the run for 20 years.

Are you feaking kidding me? How was the man even allowed to MAKE bond? What did he spend behind bars? A total of a week?

Looks like family members who no doubt helped him hide all these years payed his way. :mad:

If friends and relatives put up that cash, and he takes off again, it serves them right to lose it all, for bailing out a child kidnapper who's been on the run for 20 years.

There seems to be no bounds to the depths Debbie's family will stoop for spite against her and Mark. What UM case was it where someone put up a house for someone who skipped bail and lost their house? Was that the Thelma and Louise bandits or another case?

I know, Dynoguy. The injustice is disgusting.

Most people held on a one million dollar bond would be stuck in jail for as long as it takes to sort everything out legally.

Obviously, grandpa the kiddie kidnapper is well connected and a $100,000 bail is easy for such people to quickly raise. If the judge had set his bond at $5 million, I wonder if grandpa's supporters would have been able to come up with the half a million bucks it would take to spring his guilty old raggedy ass from jail.

In this economy, I wonder if any of them had to put their houses up for collateral, or if they're so wealthy that they just cashed in some stocks or withdrew savings. That's something I sure wouldn't be willing to do in times like these.

I'm a grouchy old broad and let me tell ya, if I were the judge, barring any serious illness on the part of the defendent, I would have denied bail on this guy. He's got 20 years of successful flight to avoid prosecution down to an art form.

There seems to be no bounds to the depths Debbie's family will stoop for spite against her and Mark. What UM case was it where someone put up a house for someone who skipped bail and lost their house? Was that the Thelma and Louise bandits or another case?

I don't know about the Thelma and Louise case, but Adam and Elena Emory's families put their houses up for Adam's bond. Adam and Elena went missing the day Adam received his conviction for murder.

I don't know if the families lost their homes over it. Adam is still considered to be a bail jumper and is wanted. Elena's body was quickly found where it is suspected that both committed suicide.

The family of Adam's victim sued to gain the properties that the families had put up for Adam's bail. I don't know if their lawsuit was successful or not.

I hope they didn't use Marvins money for the bond. Marvins money should go to Debbie when she sues him to retrieve all the money he cost her by his accusing attacks.

Only problem with that it would make Debbie into Christies landlord because Debbie now lives in Marvins San Jose house.

I think that there is a way to just put a lein on the house and collect if the house is ever sold. That way you don't have to bother owning the house in the meantime.

There seems to be no bounds to the depths Debbie's family will stoop for spite against her and Mark. What UM case was it where someone put up a house for someone who skipped bail and lost their house? Was that the Thelma and Louise bandits or another case?

I can't remember names, but I do remember a case of a bail-skipping brother who betrayed his sister on UM. When a man went up on a drugs charge, his sister put up her house to pay for his bond. Then he skipped, leaving her desperate to find him or lose her house. Eventually the man was found and the house was saved, but his sister lost thousands of dollars trying to find him.

I hope they didn't use Marvins money for the bond. Marvins money should go to Debbie when she sues him to retrieve all the money he cost her by his accusing attacks.

Only problem with that it would make Debbie into Christies landlord because Debbie now lives in Marvins San Jose house.

I think that there is a way to just put a lein on the house and collect if the house is ever sold. That way you don't have to bother owning the house in the meantime.


What about the social workers, mental health workers and attorneys whom the Maples also accused of child abuse? Aren't they entitled to sue Marvin Maple for defamation of character or is it too late to file the lawsuit?

I certainly hope that if Marvin is under house arrest, he is wearing one of those ankle homing devices, or whatever they're called. Or maybe have him tethered to one of his relatives. :mad:

I wouldn't be surprised in the least to see him leave again. I wonder who all put up money to get the $100,000 together to post his bail. Do you think they used his own house in California or was it relatives in Tennessee?

If friends and relatives put up that cash, and he takes off again, it serves them right to lose it all, for bailing out a child kidnapper who's been on the run for 20 years.

If that happens, I wouldn't have any sympathy for them either. On the other hand, if it does happen, it might make them think again about which relative they're backing....

Then again, there is one very good reason for Marvin NOT to skip. If Marvin skips it will be very embarrassing and extreme loss of face for those who support him. Nobody likes a bail-jumper, and bail-jumping is something a guilty person would do, not somebody who believes he/she is in the right - which is what Marvin's supporters are saying and believe he will say at his trial. But if Marvin really believes that, jumping bail will be no way to show it. It will reinforce the Baskin side and the Maple side will end up with egg on its face - not to mention great pains in the wallet.

Anyway, I think it is safe to assume the police will be keeping a very close watch on Marvin after what happened 20 years ago - nobody watched the Maples despite the Baskins' warnings that they were a flight risk, and we all know what happened. You can be sure that Anita Flagg, for one, will be very determined not to let that happen again.

I know, Dynoguy. The injustice is disgusting.

Most people held on a one million dollar bond would be stuck in jail for as long as it takes to sort everything out legally.

Obviously, grandpa the kiddie kidnapper is well connected and a $100,000 bail is easy for such people to quickly raise. If the judge had set his bond at $5 million, I wonder if grandpa's supporters would have been able to come up with the half a million bucks it would take to spring his guilty old raggedy ass from jail.

In this economy, I wonder if any of them had to put their houses up for collateral, or if they're so wealthy that they just cashed in some stocks or withdrew savings. That's something I sure wouldn't be willing to do in times like these.

I'm a grouchy old broad and let me tell ya, if I were the judge, barring any serious illness on the part of the defendent, I would have denied bail on this guy. He's got 20 years of successful flight to avoid prosecution down to an art form.

I couldn't agree more. Being under house arrest means he can sleep in a comfortable bed, bath alone, eat home cooked meals, read the morning paper and watch all the TV he wants. After what he's put his daughter through, that man belongs behind bars for the rest of his life. Not to live comfortable for several months until his trial begins.

The justice system is such a fricking joke.

I couldn't agree more. Being under house arrest means he can sleep in a comfortable bed, bath alone, eat home cooked meals, read the morning paper and watch all the TV he wants. After what he's put his daughter through, that man belongs behind bars for the rest of his life. Not to live comfortable for several months until his trial begins.

The justice system is such a fricking joke.

Never mind that, what about our concerns that he is a flight risk? Hasn't the Rutherford judiciary learnt anything from what happened 20 years ago? The Maples attacked attorneys, health workers and social workers with allegations of child abuse, they flouted a court order in kidnapping the children, the court officials didn't listen to the Baskins' warnings that the Maples were a flight risk (despite the allegations the Maples threw at some of them), and they lived to regret it. Are they willing to risk making the same mistake again with a man who proved himself a flight risk once before, especially now, as someone said, he has 20 years of experience in how to hide?

At least we have the advantage of knowing what he looks like now, we have his fingerprints on file, and with his face pretty well known to the media now, he doesn't stand much chance of getting far without someone recognising him.

But I think the biggest safeguard against him running is that it will look very bad for him and his supporters, and create even more supporters for the Baskin side.

I can't remember names, but I do remember a case of a bail-skipping brother who betrayed his sister on UM. When a man went up on a drugs charge, his sister put up her house to pay for his bond. Then he skipped, leaving her desperate to find him or lose her house. Eventually the man was found and the house was saved, but his sister lost thousands of dollars trying to find him.

I believe this was the case of Charles Wickman.

Charli-Ann

Unless it was Thelma and Louise, I'm not sure of the case or even if it was on UM, except that at least one relative definitely lost a house over it.

I believe this was the case of Charles Wickman.

Charli-Ann

I did a check and yes, it was Charles Wickman. I have no idea who the unfortunate was who lost their house.

This sounds like a pretty interesting story!

I couldn't agree more. Being under house arrest means he can sleep in a comfortable bed, bath alone, eat home cooked meals, read the morning paper and watch all the TV he wants. After what he's put his daughter through, that man belongs behind bars for the rest of his life. Not to live comfortable for several months until his trial begins.

The justice system is such a fricking joke.

Assuming he does not run, Marvin had better make the most of it. He probably has to wear one of those ankle homing device things, and I am sure that this time the police will keep a very close eye on him! ticked:

And the Maple supporters say that the Rutherford justice system is at best incompetent, at the worst, corrupt - in favour of the Baskins! Some even have the cheek to say that the Baskins bribed court officials into returning Bobby and Christie to them! I suppose they are going to say the Baskins are going to bribe the judiciary into doing a whole lot of other things as well - but not, apparently, keep denying Marvin bail. :mad:

And even if Marvin ends up going to jail, there is a good chance it will not be the end of the matter. I am sure his supporters will do everything they can for any appeals, which is very likely to include more smear campaigns against the Baskins.

Second. It's entirely possible they both grew up thinking they were the children of a nice, older couple who were very fortunate to have had children at all (since they would have been "old" to be the parents of Kristi and Bobby). I don't know that the desruction of their lives and everything they thought was true is reason to celebrate.


I think this is a stretch. The children were 8 and 9. They weren't infants when they were abducted. They would have memories of their parents prior to the abduction. It is possible those memories are supressed and that they have been brainwashed for a long time and believe something to be the truth that is not.

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I saw the story in the news, saw a lot of links to this site, thought the story was interesting. So, I followed the links, and read, and read, and read. Some very long threads. I thought I would like to participate in the conversations initially, so I joined. I of course read the rules before joining, I agreed with them. I think I've changed my mind about this whole sitcoms site. After having read the threads, I have to say that I have never encountered so much hatred in my entire life. It gave me a very bad feeling about most of the people posting on this site. What a shame. It could do so much good if used as it was supposed to be used...IMHO.

Wow, wow, and wow. Look what happens when I stay away from the boards!

Got to stay home one day last week and caught a few UMs on SPIKE, which sent me back to here to see what was up. Geez, who knew THIS would be what was up!

I am stunned and so happy for the Baskins; that their questions are answered. Of course, all the goodness is tempered by what the "kids" must be going through, and sadness that the Baskins have yet to see their "lost" children - if my reading through the thread is correct.

What an incredible story. I remember seeing a re-airing of the story on Lifetime not long before UM left that channel and thinking it amazing that twenty years' hence there were still no answers. And here we are.

Kudos to all you super board sleuths who have been following this story so closely. Your research skills are impressive.

FizzersForever,

Do you mean to say that we, in this thread, are being hateful with each other, we on the board are being hateful, the quotes of what some people are saying to each other on different sites that are quoted and then repeated here are hateful, or what?

Some of the hateful stuff in this thread is not from forum regulars at all! Some of it is from people who were fighting with each other on a different site or sites, then signed up here, brought their fight here for a few jabs, then left.

Look at the person's name, their join date, and their number of posts on the left of each post they make. That will let you know if they are a forum regular -one of us being mean and hateful- or some new person who just signed up recently to bring their fight into this forum, for the sake of stirring up trouble and nothing else.

I am quite new here, and I have to say that even though I've had a big disagreement with two forum regulars, (one was a misunderstanding, and one was a difference of opinion), we are still on friendly terms and discuss cases with each other in the manner which was intended by the site.

And the Maple supporters say that the Rutherford justice system is at best incompetent, at the worst, corrupt - in favour of the Baskins! Some even have the cheek to say that the Baskins bribed court officials into returning Bobby and Christie to them! I suppose they are going to say the Baskins are going to bribe the judiciary into doing a whole lot of other things as well - but not, apparently, keep denying Marvin bail. :mad:

And even if Marvin ends up going to jail, there is a good chance it will not be the end of the matter. I am sure his supporters will do everything they can for any appeals, which is very likely to include more smear campaigns against the Baskins.

Sadly, this kind of thing is nothing new. Needless to say, a lot of Maple's supporters are grossly uninformed about the case. Many of them are opportunists who want media attention. The way I see it, they consider Marvin Maple to be innocent until proven guilty, but view the Baskins as guilty until proven innocent. :mad:

Sadly, this kind of thing is nothing new. Needless to say, a lot of Maple's supporters are grossly uninformed about the case. Many of them are opportunists who want media attention. The way I see it, they consider Marvin Maple to be innocent until proven guilty, but view the Baskins as guilty until proven innocent. :mad:

Unfortunately, "guilty until proven innocent" was something that seemed to happen to the people who became the accused in the satanic ritual abuse scares in the 1980s-1990s. Bobby Finje was one (and he himself was a child), and he said that in his case the adage "innocent until proven guilty" was twisted around to "guilty until proven innocent". Although Bobby was a minor, he was tried in an adult court and would have been sent to an adult prison if found guilty - fortunately the jury saw sense and acquitted him.

The way I see it, they consider Marvin Maple to be innocent until proven guilty, but view the Baskins as guilty until proven innocent.

That may be, but from reading this thread as a totally non-biased observer simply interested in this astonishing case, I have to say that not many posters, specifically the longtime frequent posters, are much interested in affording Mr. Maples the Constitutional luxary of "innoncent until proven guilty."

It really reads like the overwhelming majority of the posters on this thread view the legal process in this case as a mere formality that will lead to the already-determined-to-be- deserved punishment phase. I'm not entirely convinced that it is that cut-and-dried and I also don't share many poster's desire for vengeful punishment, but that's another story altogether...

I'm just interested in how this plays out, particularly what Maples has to say for himself and what the kids have to say about the situation.

You notice how many first-time posters show up on this thread to say how "hateful" everyone is, or how no one will allow "justice" to play out?

Kind of funny, don't you think? All these disinterested posters coming here for nothing more than the spirit of "innocent until proven guilty"?

Things that make you go "Hmmmmm...."



*COUGH* MapleS family again *COUGH*

That may be, but from reading this thread as a totally non-biased observer simply interested in this astonishing case, I have to say that not many posters, specifically the longtime frequent posters, are much interested in affording Mr. Maples the Constitutional luxary of "innoncent until proven guilty."


Well, let's see... Old man Marv and his wife try to get custody of their grandkids, they lose that case in a COURT OF LAW, then they proceed to kidnap the kids, change their names several times, move across the country, complain when an article about him is in the paper...

Do I really need to go on? Do you really think we are all giving him a raw deal?

I suppose you think any posts on here saying "O.J. did it" aren't fair, either, seeing as he was found "innocent" and all.

Go back to the Murfreesboro paper board, MapleS!

Did you even read my post, Todd?

I have no ties to this case whatsoever and am simply intrigued by it, as with many other UM cases. I'm a longtime lurker (you'll notice I registered almost a year ago). I think it is very rude, incredibly presumptuous and in this case completely inaccurate for you to suggest that anyone that shares a differing opinion (or in my case, is simply withholding judgment) must have some sort of deceitful motive.

I don't see things as black and white as you do, Todd. There's always plenty of gray area to be explored. And I believe that discretion is the better part of valor when it comes to making harsh judgments on people.

I don't necessarily think he is getting a "raw deal" from people on this board, but my initial post was in response to someone talking about "guilty until proven innocent", which seems to sum up your feelings on this case precisely.

It certainly is your right to feel that way, Todd; I respect your opinion. But you'll have to excuse me for not being entirely confident in your ability to avoid rash and imprudent judgments on people, considering you just made a very quick and unfair judgment on me, with absolutely no evidence whatsoever.

Like I said, my mind will not be entirely made up until I hear more from the defendant and any other people that speak on his behalf (such as the victims).

With this case the Maples are guilty. Does not matter what other story they come out with or more details. The fact of the matter is they kidnapped 2 of there grandchildren. It does not matter the reason behind it. This is against the law so yeah I can sit here & say before this even goes to trial, they are guilty.

Did you even read my post, Todd?

Yes, Pleasant -- I read your post. Did you read my post, Pleasant?

How many more FACTS do you need, Pleasant? Do "innocent" people kidnap kids and change their names?

I'm sorry if you don't agree, Pleasant. That is fine and you have your right to your own opinion.

But please don't come here and say we are rushing to judgement and act like we all have an agenda, Pleasant. If Bobby and Christi want to support their grandpa, that is their business. You don't have to agree with everyone else, and we don't have to agree with you. But your tone makes it sound like you aren't exactly neutral in all of this.

If you don't think the man is guilty of anything, then either you aren't paying attention or haven't been following the case for 20 years like some of us have, Pleasant.

Marvin MapleS will get his day in court. But the man has already proven he is guilty well beyond any reasonable doubt.

Good day to you, Pleasant.

With this case the Maples are guilty. Does not matter what other story they come out with or more details. The fact of the matter is they kidnapped 2 of there grandchildren. It does not matter the reason behind it. This is against the law so yeah I can sit here & say before this even goes to trial, they are guilty.

Yeah... what she said. :D

I hesitate to get into the middle of a heated discussion, and my intention is not to add fuel to the fire. I would like to point out, however, that it is one thing to hold a jury to the standard of "innocent until proven guilty" and it is entirely another to form an opinion, as a member of the informed public, based on the available facts and context. I agree that we can't all possibly know everything about the case, and things aren't always black and white.

The fact is that in this case, ONE SIDE IS LYING ABOUT THE OTHER SIDE. The Maples didn't "sort of" kidnap their grandchildren. Either they did or they didn't. The Baskins weren't "sort of" child-abusing Satan worshipers. Either they were or they weren't.

People are going to take sides, and since this case has been going on for 20 years, it's reasonable for people to have strong opinions at this point. To say that we all must assume the Maples are innocent until proven guilty is saying that we can't form opinions based on the bigger picture. Would most of us be allowed on Marvin Maple's jury? Heck no! That's why there's a jury selection process. The rest of the public is not held to the same standard, nor should we necessarily be held to that same standard to which a jury is held.

I agree that we can't all possibly know everything about the case, and things aren't always black and white.

People are going to take sides, and since this case has been going on for 20 years, it's reasonable for people to have strong opinions at this point. To say that we all must assume the Maples are innocent until proven guilty is saying that we can't form opinions based on the bigger picture.

I agree with this completely. It's only natural that people form opinions based on the evidence that they have in front of them. I was not intending to fault any individual for expressing any particular opinion.

However, sometimes I observe a bit of a "groupthink" mentality on this board, and I was only intending to provide a neutral point of view to counter the prevailing viewpoint. It's telling, I think, that Todd says that my tone suggests that I was not neutral; I think that I'm pretty square down the middle when it comes to neutrality in this case, and it is only because the overwhelming majority of posters are echoing the same chorus, so when someone comes across with a truly neutral POV, it appears that it is slanted to the "other" side in comparison.

Since it is in my nature to be a more cautious with judgments than others, I'm withholding mine into more information (the other side of the story) comes out. Now having said that, I agree with the previous posters that it's pretty clear the Maples were in fact "guilty" of something here. That appears nearly certain, given what we know. But even amongst a specific judgment like GUILTY there is a lot of gray area and room for nuance. The specific circumstances that lead to the probable crime being committed could mitigate the degree of severity of the crime. Things like the living conditions the children were living in at the time of the kidnapping (including the possibility of abuse or other factors) plus the way they raised the kids (and how they turned out) will, for me, weigh heavily on my final judgments in this case. And, of course, these factors will also play a big role in the judicial process. Mitigating circumstances are always a chief factor in what charges are sought and what punishment is doled out.

I appreciate this board very much and the opportunity to share my two cents with other UM fans!

I think the reason that people are arguing with you on this particular case is that as far as this crime is concerned, as far as the legal aspect, the other side HAS been told. The court gave the kids back to the parents. They were the ones with the LEGAL right to the children. Therefore there is no questions as to whether or not he is guilty, in this instance. Yes, he obvoiousy had his reasons, but that doens't change the fact that he took someone else's children that he and his wife had no legal right to. Can you see this fact?

I think the reason that people are arguing with you on this particular case is that as far as this crime is concerned, as far as the legal aspect, the other side HAS been told. The court gave the kids back to the parents. They were the ones with the LEGAL right to the children. Therefore there is no questions as to whether or not he is guilty, in this instance. Yes, he obvoiousy had his reasons, but that doens't change the fact that he took someone else's children that he and his wife had no legal right to. Can you see this fact?

Yes. I can see that fact. The courts gave the legal right to the parents (a month before the grandparents had already split). At that point they were legally compelled to return the children and their failure to do so is why they were wanted for twenty years and is why old man Maple is being charged with felony kidnapping.

However, there will be other things will be taken into consideration before any final verdict is rendered. Suppose the children had been abused? Suppose some evidence comes to light to support that? Suppose "the children" testify to that effect (whether because it is true or because they were brainwashed)?!? Those things would certainly be taken into consideration; if a jury could be convinced there was abuse, it is possible, maybe even likely, that Maple would be found not guilty of any serious charges.

Now, I am NOT saying I think they were abused. I'm merely pointing out one example of the types of things that could still come out in a trial that would throw the question of guilt (and the severity of the charges that are found guilty) up in the air. Until due process is fulfilled, that possibility remains (IMO), hence "innocent until proven guilty".

Look, folks, I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here, because nobody else is doing a very good job of it. With the evidence I have now, I strongly suspect the abuse charges were bogus and that Mrs. Maple was a conniving and twisted woman who orchestrated this thing for selfish and bizarre reasons.

But this whole damn thing is so weird and so complex in so many ways that, for me, the evidence just doesn't paint the same crystal clear picture that so many posters on this board have reduced it to.

I agree with this completely. It's only natural that people form opinions based on the evidence that they have in front of them. I was not intending to fault any individual for expressing any particular opinion.

However, sometimes I observe a bit of a "groupthink" mentality on this board, and I was only intending to provide a neutral point of view to counter the prevailing viewpoint. It's telling, I think, that Todd says that my tone suggests that I was not neutral; I think that I'm pretty square down the middle when it comes to neutrality in this case, and it is only because the overwhelming majority of posters are echoing the same chorus, so when someone comes across with a truly neutral POV, it appears that it is slanted to the "other" side in comparison.

Since it is in my nature to be a more cautious with judgments than others, I'm withholding mine into more information (the other side of the story) comes out. Now having said that, I agree with the previous posters that it's pretty clear the Maples were in fact "guilty" of something here. That appears nearly certain, given what we know. But even amongst a specific judgment like GUILTY there is a lot of gray area and room for nuance. The specific circumstances that lead to the probable crime being committed could mitigate the degree of severity of the crime. Things like the living conditions the children were living in at the time of the kidnapping (including the possibility of abuse or other factors) plus the way they raised the kids (and how they turned out) will, for me, weigh heavily on my final judgments in this case. And, of course, these factors will also play a big role in the judicial process. Mitigating circumstances are always a chief factor in what charges are sought and what punishment is doled out.

I appreciate this board very much and the opportunity to share my two cents with other UM fans!


I have seen extremely emotional, ugly and stupid comments made on both sides of this case. I have learned not to get drawn into such arguments, especially with Maple relatives. When another side is presented in a more neutral and respectful manner I am prepared to listen, so: :)

Since most of us came here through the Baskin segment on Unsolved Mysteries, naturally there was a bias in favour of the Baskins. The segment was one-sided, but naturally Sandra and Marvin weren't there to present their side. Their relatives were absent from the segment; they say they were denied permission to speak on the segment because UM said they had all the facts they need. What UM has to say about the absence of Maple relatives from the segment I don't know.

If there was another side we would have been interested to hear it, but the only other side we have heard is the ugly spewing from the Maple relatives (which caused our first thread on the Baskin case to get locked), which didn't really tell us anything of substance and didn't convey the impression that there really was another side worthy of the jury's consideration. And naturally, their spewing hardened our stance against the Maples.

But yes, you may have a point about the grey areas and mitigating circumstances. We have not seen Marvin's side of things or his defence presented yet, and his lawyer may bring out some mitigating circumstances. One very mitigating circumstance for Marvin is that Debbie is willing to forgive him and from the sound of it, she is even open to some sort of reconciliation with him.

I am still interested to hear what Marvin has to say at his trial, whether it does have any mitigating circumstances, and whether his side of the story really is more substantial than the impression his relatives have conveyed.

I stumbled across this forum quite by chance yesterday, when looking for something completely different! As this sad case has received some coverage here in Scotland since the Baskn children were located, it was interesting - and in some cases very disturbing - to read the many comments on this forum thread.

There are certainly some deeply entrenched views on both sides of the debate. What is surely unarguable, however, is that the Maples broke the law! Child abuse is disgusting - but false allegations of abuse, in order to keep a child from one or other of that child's parents, are equally obscene.

It is stretching credulity to the limit to accept that the Maples, having kidnapped two of the Baskin children in order to save them from the parents they alleged to be abusers, should effectivey abandon the youngest child to the tender mercies of these soi-disant abusers! For if the Maples genuinely feared for the safety of the children, they would surely have been concerned for the safety of all of them.

The cruelty of denying these children the right to know their own parents and their own brothers, of denying them the right even to know ther own true identities, of instilling fear and loahing of the mother and father who have never stopped loving them - above all, of denying the Baskins any information, any news at all, of their children for all these years - cannot be excused! Even if the Maples were sincere in their belief that the parents were abusive, that did not give them the right to take he law into their own hands. The allegations had been investigated and were found to be without merit.

Sadly, it seems that these two young adults have been conditioned to believe that their parents meant them harm. Now that is child abuse of the wickedest kind! I hope that some sort of reconciliation can take place between the Baskins and their children, even after all this time. As for Marvin Maple, he should be examining his conscience today.

That may be, but from reading this thread as a totally non-biased observer simply interested in this astonishing case, I have to say that not many posters, specifically the longtime frequent posters, are much interested in affording Mr. Maples the Constitutional luxary of "innoncent until proven guilty."

That may be true, but what I was actually pointing out was the inconsistency in the mindset of some people. In other words, it seems to me that some are willing to give the Marvin Maple the benefit of the doubt, but are quick on the trigger to view the Baskins as the villains.

However, there will be other things will be taken into consideration before any final verdict is rendered. Suppose the children had been abused? Suppose some evidence comes to light to support that? Suppose "the children" testify to that effect (whether because it is true or because they were brainwashed)?!? Those things would certainly be taken into consideration; if a jury could be convinced there was abuse, it is possible, maybe even likely, that Maple would be found not guilty of any serious charges.

Now, I am NOT saying I think they were abused. I'm merely pointing out one example of the types of things that could still come out in a trial that would throw the question of guilt (and the severity of the charges that are found guilty) up in the air. Until due process is fulfilled, that possibility remains (IMO), hence "innocent until proven guilty".



Even Maple's own family members do not deny he took the children that were not legally his to take. They've been clear about that. Therefore he and his wife are guilty of kidnapping. Of course, there may be mitigating circumstances, and because of those could possibly (though I doubt it) be found not-guilty in a court of law. That does not mean that he is innocent of kidnapping. It is quite clear that he broke the law and took those children. He committed the crime of kidnapping. No one needs a trial to know that. Those here, I'm sure, do not pretend they are the jury, but the facts are clear in this case as far as Mr Maple taking those children when they weren't his to take.

When Fizzers Forever was up there quoting forum rules, he must have forgot to mention the one about how we're required to have completed two semesters of law school with a B or better grade before we can participate in intelligent discussion of the Baskin/Maples case.

However, there will be other things will be taken into consideration before any final verdict is rendered. Suppose the children had been abused? Suppose some evidence comes to light to support that? Suppose "the children" testify to that effect (whether because it is true or because they were brainwashed)?!? Those things would certainly be taken into consideration; if a jury could be convinced there was abuse, it is possible, maybe even likely, that Maple would be found not guilty of any serious charges.

But this whole damn thing is so weird and so complex in so many ways that, for me, the evidence just doesn't paint the same crystal clear picture that so many posters on this board have reduced it to.

I'm not on the field of law so I may be entirely wrong, I don't even think that most of the "extenuating circumstances" will even come into play in this case during the trial phase. The facts that he kidnapped the children that he didn't have legal custody of are pretty clear. I think the "extenuating circumstances" will only, possibly have some effect in the sentencing phase of the trial.

I agree that this whole entire case is very weird and complex!

http://www.wsav.com/sav/news/local/article/mark_baskin_preaches_first_sermon_since_returning_from_california/9635/

Link to update w/video.

I'm not on the field of law so I may be entirely wrong, I don't even think that most of the "extenuating circumstances" will even come into play in this case during the trial phase. The facts that he kidnapped the children that he didn't have legal custody of are pretty clear. I think the "extenuating circumstances" will only, possibly have some effect in the sentencing phase of the trial.

I agree that this whole entire case is very weird and complex!

I think you are correct, especially since there was no evidence there was abuse and the Baskins were certainly never convicted of anything. My guess is any evidence pointing to the old accusations will not be admissible.

When Fizzers Forever was up there quoting forum rules, he must have forgot to mention the one about how we're required to have completed two semesters of law school with a B or better grade before we can participate in intelligent discussion of the Baskin/Maples case.

*choke* :notworthy

I think that the Tenessee courts looked at Maples accusations till they were blue in the face 20 years ago. Oftentimes jusdges won't consider old stuff because they have limited time to consider each of hundreds of backloged cases on the schedule.

Also, dificult people can sidetrack and procrastinate and go off on irrelevent tangents forever if you let them. I would think that the judge will look at a quick summary of the professional conclusions in the case from 20 yrs ago, and unless their is any NEW information, he will only consider the crime of kidnapping in violation of the Baskins child custody.

Yes. I can see that fact. The courts gave the legal right to the parents (a month before the grandparents had already split). At that point they were legally compelled to return the children and their failure to do so is why they were wanted for twenty years and is why old man Maple is being charged with felony kidnapping.

However, there will be other things will be taken into consideration before any final verdict is rendered. Suppose the children had been abused? Suppose some evidence comes to light to support that? Suppose "the children" testify to that effect (whether because it is true or because they were brainwashed)?!? Those things would certainly be taken into consideration; if a jury could be convinced there was abuse, it is possible, maybe even likely, that Maple would be found not guilty of any serious charges.

Now, I am NOT saying I think they were abused. I'm merely pointing out one example of the types of things that could still come out in a trial that would throw the question of guilt (and the severity of the charges that are found guilty) up in the air. Until due process is fulfilled, that possibility remains (IMO), hence "innocent until proven guilty".

Look, folks, I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here, because nobody else is doing a very good job of it. With the evidence I have now, I strongly suspect the abuse charges were bogus and that Mrs. Maple was a conniving and twisted woman who orchestrated this thing for selfish and bizarre reasons.

But this whole damn thing is so weird and so complex in so many ways that, for me, the evidence just doesn't paint the same crystal clear picture that so many posters on this board have reduced it to.


unfortunately at this point I don't think we will EVER know the truth. If the kid say they were abused there is no way to know if that is true or that is what they have been brainwashed to think. I tend to believe that. I just can not believe that someone, somewhere, socials workers, whoever didnt see SOME evidence of abuse if it was going on. I can't believe they would let them adopt a child if there was ANY question of their parenting. It does not make sense at all. That is why so many people here believe this side of the story, because the Maples side makes no sense what so ever. If Maple had any proof that they were being abused he could have given it to the court while he had custody of the kids. He obviously didn't or they would have been with him legally, and even if the system failed them and they were still returned to their parents there would be SOMEONE who dealt with this case along the way who would say that the courts were wrong because of [x] evidence.

http://www.wsav.com/sav/news/local/article/mark_baskin_preaches_first_sermon_since_returning_from_california/9635/

Link to update w/video.


Thanks for the link!

I wouldn't bet on Marvin not being able to bring in the abuse allegations. I am not entirely familiar with Tennessee law, but most states have some version of what is called the "necessity" defense. Necessity, theoretically, is a defense to just about any crime. Generally, it requires that the actor have reasonably believed that his violating a particular criminal statute was necessary to prevent a harm recognized by society as a greater harm than that caused by violating the statute. So, I would imagine that Marvin Maple would use whatever version of the necessity defense that Tennessee has, assuming they have one. The state may try to block the defense or try to prevent the "children" from testifying as to any abuse under the theory that their testimony is unreliable because it has been so tainted, but that could prove difficult. Marvin has a constitutional right to present his defense, and if the "children" are willing to testify to support his case, I would guess that that will be enough of a foundation for the court to allow the defense. Again, this is all premised on my assumption that Tennessee has a necessity defense, which I don't know for sure that it does.

As for Marvin getting out on bail, I understand people's frustrations, but I think complaining about the justice system in this case is not really fair. They set his bail at $1 million which is very, very high. Much higher than most bails even in murder cases. Many states have constitutional provisions that require that some bail be granted, even if it is very high. And bail is not supposed to be about punishing the accused. It is supposed to be about ensuring his appearance for trial and protecting the public. I don't think Marvin is a threat to public safety at this point, so the only issue is his appearance for trial. That's why his bail was set so high. If he is found guilty after a trial or a plea--which I am pretty sure he will be--then he will face punishment. I understand that many here, including me, believe he is guilty and needs to be punished. But, the fact is that he, just like everyone else, is entitled to a trial before he is punished.

I just can not believe that someone, somewhere, socials workers, whoever didnt see SOME evidence of abuse if it was going on.
1. abuse is done in private
2. this is a small town in the South where the justice system isn't always unbiased. Besides that, social workers and other court officials make mistakes every day, everywhere

As for Marvin getting out on bail, I understand people's frustrations, but I think complaining about the justice system in this case is not really fair. They set his bail at $1 million which is very, very high. Much higher than most bails even in murder cases.

It was reduced to $100,000. That's when it was posted for him.

It was reduced to $100,000. That's when it was posted for him.


It is now up at the Murfreesboro Post and other posts that Marvin is out on bail. Here is one link:

http://www.murfreesboropost.com/news.php?viewStory=15419

I feel better about Marvin getting out on bail now I know he has to wear a surveillance device. I thought he might, seeing as he is under house arrest.

1. abuse is done in private
2. this is a small town in the South where the justice system isn't always unbiased. Besides that, social workers and other court officials make mistakes every day, everywhere

They sure can - but for social workers, mental health workers and attorneys to also be abusing the children? According to newspaper reports, this is what the Maples alleged.:confused:

It was reduced to $100,000. That's when it was posted for him.

Was Maples' bail really reduced to only a hundred thousand dollars, or did the family and friends just come up with the 10% ($100,000) of the one million dollars that his bail was set at, and which is all that's usually required to bail someone out of jail, 10%?

It looks like it was reduced from $1M surety to $100K cash. That's not unusual. So, if he skips out on his trial, he (or whoever posted it) will lose their $100k, but if he shows, they'll get it all back (minus perhaps some administrative fee the court charges). I still think that's reasonable considering all the conditions they put on him.

It looks like it was reduced from $1M surety to $100K cash. That's not unusual. So, if he skips out on his trial, he (or whoever posted it) will lose their $100k, but if he shows, they'll get it all back (minus perhaps some administrative fee the court charges). I still think that's reasonable considering all the conditions they put on him.

Yuppie Lawyer, could you explain to me how that works.

They just caught the guy, set his bail at a million bucks, then quickly lowered it to a hundred thousand cash, and he's out, just that fast?

I know next to nothing about how these things work in the legal system. I always thought that a person who had their bail set (at any amount) was able to get out of jail if they were able to come up with 10% of the bail amount set.

Based on my assumption, I thought that Marvin Maples' bail was set at one million dollars and that his supporters then raised the 10% necessary to bail him out, and that 10% woud be the one hundred thousand.

I'm all confused... :crazy:

Maybe they raised the whole million and used the rest in bribes to get him out.

Just a guess. :whatever:

1. abuse is done in private
2. this is a small town in the South where the justice system isn't always unbiased. Besides that, social workers and other court officials make mistakes every day, everywhere

Respectability is everything in a small town, so whiffs of scandal can be really damaging.

Murfreesboro is not a 'small town'. It isn't a huge metropolitan area, but we are a decent-sized city. Second, why would the location of 'the south' matter? That is kind of offensive to southerns. For the record, there are idiots and shady characters in all areas of this country. ;)

Murfreesboro has a population of over 100,000 inside the city limits, so please don't envision Mayberry. For more info please visit http://www.murfreesborotn.gov/.

Yuppie Lawyer, could you explain to me how that works.

They just caught the guy, set his bail at a million bucks, then quickly lowered it to a hundred thousand cash, and he's out, just that fast?

I know next to nothing about how these things work in the legal system. I always thought that a person who had their bail set (at any amount) was able to get out of jail if they were able to come up with 10% of the bail amount set.

Based on my assumption, I thought that Marvin Maples' bail was set at one million dollars and that his supporters then raised the 10% necessary to bail him out, and that 10% woud be the one hundred thousand.

I'm all confused... :crazy:
It's not unusual for bail to be set by a magistrate at a high amount, and then, when the defendant is able to present more information, to get the bail amount lowered. In this case, the article indicates that the prosecutor and the defense agreed on the lower bail with the conditions of house arrest with an electronic monitor, surrendering his passport, and disclosing bank accounts and financial assets.

As for the 10%, you are mostly correct. When a bail amount is set as a cash or surety, the defendant can get out either by posting the whole amount in cash or by having a bail bondsman posting a surety with the court. Typically, a bail bondsman will charge a 10% fee for posting the surety, but they will normally require some security for the remaining 90%. The upside to using a bail bonds company is that you only have to have 10% liquid to get out. The downside is that you don't ever get that 10% back--the bond company keeps it as their fee. If, on the other hand, you are able to post the full amount in cash, then you get the whole amount back if you always appear as required (minus an administrative fee the court sometimes charges). So, it is not really that unusual for a court to agree to convert a cash/surety bail to a cash only bail that is around 10% of what was originally set--especially when the cash amount is still high. The person still has to put up the same amount of money, and they consequently have a good incentive to appear for trial.

I think you are correct, especially since there was no evidence there was abuse and the Baskins were certainly never convicted of anything. My guess is any evidence pointing to the old accusations will not be admissible.

We don't know for sure yet if the Baskin kids will testify that they were abused. At the moment the children are not seeing the parents, but details are vague as to why; the children don't seem to remember anything and Christie needs time to think. There has been nothing definite and nothing along the lines of "our parents were monsters, we never want to see them again!" Even if the Baskin children did testify to this effect, the evidence may not be admissible because there is a big question mark over the reliability of their evidence.

Certainly if Marvin did try to bring any of those old accusations in, it would be far more likely to do him harm than good. Those accusations the Maples made against attorneys, mental health workers and social workers will be even more damaging, and the prosecutor will certainly use that to slash Marvin's allegations to ribbons. My guess is, Marvin's lawyer will not use any of the old accusations; instead he will try a plea-bargain of some sort. The question is, given how the Maple family has carried on so far, will Marvin agree to that? Or will he insist on the old accusations; given that he won't admit any guilt or remorse, this seems likely. If this happens, I foresee that Marvin is headed for huge clashes with his lawyer.

Certainly if Marvin did try to bring any of those old accusations in, it would be far more likely to do him harm than good. Those accusations the Maples made against attorneys, mental health workers and social workers will be even more damaging, and the prosecutor will certainly use that to slash Marvin's allegations to ribbons. My guess is, Marvin's lawyer will not use any of the old accusations; instead he will try a plea-bargain of some sort. The question is, given how the Maple family has carried on so far, will Marvin agree to that? Or will he insist on the old accusations; given that he won't admit any guilt or remorse, this seems likely. If this happens, I foresee that Marvin is headed for huge clashes with his lawyer.
I don't think there is any "certainly" about it. Without these accusations, Marvin has NO defense. With them, he has one. Far from doing more harm than good, it is really the only thing that does him any good. It is this potential defense, and this potential defense only, that gives him and his attorney any leverage whatsoever in negotiating a plea bargain. And, one thing I didn't mention before regarding the necessity defense--the accusations don't have to be true. It there is a necessity defense in Tennessee, and that defense is similar to such defenses in the states I've practiced in, then if Marvin reasonably believed them to be true, that is enough for him to be successful. So, if Sandra orchestrated all the allegations, but Marvin believed them, then that may be enough.

Thanks for the explanation, Yuppie Lawyer. It's much apprecieated. :)

I am personally glad that my tax dollars won't be going to feed/house another inmate. This man is 73. The worst that he will do is take his own life. I don't think there is a risk that he'll take off again, regardless of the fact that he ran 20 years ago. He wasn't 73 and already in trouble then. He also has to turn over his financial records, as well, assuming that info can even be found.

Murfreesboro IS A Small town especially in the government and the running of such!

We are talking 20 years ago as well when there is no argument that Murfreesboro was a "Good Ole Boy" back scratching have the correct last name kind of town!

Everything you imply about a "Southern town" is warranted! We earn those jokes! Check out red state update--I hate them but they do represent the majority of thought in TN!

While the growth has just recently moved the "Boro" up the population ladder, we are still mired in the old school politics of the Southern past and don't let anyone tell ya different!

I am very interested in this case and we will never know the real truth but, for EX:

We just had a "Foster adoptive " parent abuse their child for the second time here in the news! Just because someone can adopt, just because someone doesn't not have a criminal record does not mean they are OK! Just because they are a Pastor does not give them blank check of honor either!

My wife works with Sexually abused children and has for 10 years, an award winner she is!

By the way, the bond was reduced to $100,000 and the family put up $100,000 in cash to get him out! Sorry but 1 million is excessive for this crime and everyone knew it!

In the end, if the system, the DA, the Parents and yes the grandfather cared about the children, they would arrange a Plea that would put him in jail for a couple of years (that is to age 75 people with next to no health care and in Prison ya know), THIS WOULD STOP THE MEDIA CIRCUS they seem bent on having? This media circus, who will it benefit? Not the children ya think?

Can someone in power, in a position to affect things think about what is best for these children. The man got away with it? Put him in jail for even 2 years and you curtail his life drastically and he deserves it but NO media circus should occur over this except to advance a persons personal agenda?

Well you are certainly welcome to your opinion, BlueRaider, as just last week people were negatively discussing the things that you posted elsewhere, like the Post. Just as I am welcome to disagree with you wholeheartedly. Red State Update is a comedy sketch created by two theater majors that I went to MTSU with. They do it to be funny and because they KNOW it perpetuates a stereotype, NOT because they genuinely view their fellow Tennesseans that way. For clarification, the people that I noted had referred to current day times, not 20 years ago. I will just let the nonconfrontational, well-worded way of my original post speak for itself. I don't have to worry too much, as your commentary will surely get some other posters fired up. One final note, though, the population has grown in the last 20 years, not very recently as you indicate. The last data gathered before 2008's update of over 100,000 was in 2000. That is nearly 10 years ago. I apologize, but your abrasive post makes it clear that you are biased for some reason or another.

OK question:

Do we have a list of Marvin's sibling names. There is only one listing in the property owners for Rutherford County for Maple. (MAPLE CYNTHIA L ETVIR DOUGLAS J) Does Marvin have a brother named Douglas? Also, do you know the actual numerical part of the address where Sandra and Marvin lived. I would like to look at the property data and see how the transactions are recorded, considering that we've had some questions about how that occurred.

Oh, and oddly, here is the article that had appeared in the local Post right before they were found: http://www.murfreesboropost.com/news.php?viewStory=14943

Can't help but wonder if this is THE Faye posting on the WGNS site!!

"faye on February 18th, 2009 9:30 am in response to Maple: well look at it this way he did have custody at the time..also he home schooled them …he must have been a great grandparent.. and to send them to college too!!!.Who is gonna kidknap kids and do that ?Most kids dont even make it past 24hrs"

In the end, if the system, the DA, the Parents and yes the grandfather cared about the children, they would arrange a Plea that would put him in jail for a couple of years (that is to age 75 people with next to no health care and in Prison ya know), THIS WOULD STOP THE MEDIA CIRCUS they seem bent on having? This media circus, who will it benefit? Not the children ya think?

Can someone in power, in a position to affect things think about what is best for these children. The man got away with it? Put him in jail for even 2 years and you curtail his life drastically and he deserves it but NO media circus should occur over this except to advance a persons personal agenda?

I agree with you that a plea deal is the way to go in this case. Gets some punishment for Marvin, but nothing too excessive. Ends some of the media coverage. Lets "the kids" see that their parents aren't out to put their loved Grandfather/Father in prison forever (even though the parents don't have that much control over that bit, I'm sure their input is taken into account). Opens the door slightly for some kind of meeting/reunion/relationship for "the kids" with their parents.

I know that some the media coverage that Debbie and Mark have sought out/taken advantage of is a way for them to get the children to see them and some old photos, since "the kids" aren't quite ready to meet with them yet. I can understand their motive in doing this. Maybe some of it will help to remind them of their past.

OK question:

Do we have a list of Marvin's sibling names. There is only one listing in the property owners for Rutherford County for Maple. (MAPLE CYNTHIA L ETVIR DOUGLAS J) Does Marvin have a brother named Douglas? Also, do you know the actual numerical part of the address where Sandra and Marvin lived. I would like to look at the property data and see how the transactions are recorded, considering that we've had some questions about how that occurred.

Oh, and oddly, here is the article that had appeared in the local Post right before they were found: http://www.murfreesboropost.com/news.php?viewStory=14943

I believe his siblings live in Michigan.

Yes, there was an article in the Murfreesboro Post at approx. the same time article appeared in San Diego newspaper.

Murfreesboro is not a 'small town'. It isn't a huge metropolitan area, but we are a decent-sized city. Second, why would the location of 'the south' matter? That is kind of offensive to southerns. For the record, there are idiots and shady characters in all areas of this country. ;)

I heartily agree that there are idiots and shady characters in all areas of this country. ;) That's why I said something similar in my last note.

EVERY area, whether it's the South, the mid-west, the West, etc. is different, due to its history and current social traditions. Southerners greet strangers in a way that is not seen on the streets of New York. Is one way of interacting more "right" than another? No, not at all. It's simply a fact of life. So, there's no need to feel offense.

Can't help but wonder if this is THE Faye posting on the WGNS site!!

"faye on February 18th, 2009 9:30 am in response to Maple: well look at it this way he did have custody at the time..also he home schooled them …he must have been a great grandparent.. and to send them to college too!!!.Who is gonna kidknap kids and do that ?Most kids dont even make it past 24hrs"


Could be Faye Yager, could not. I never personally thought that Marvin or Sandra would hurt Christi or Bobby. I thought they would do the best that they could, given the circumstances to raise them well. They had raised 3 daughters very well previously. I know that Debbie says her father had made a threat about harming the children, I'm sure that was done in anger and frustration. I understand it scaring her, as she had no way to know if her kids were alright.

And about sending them to College. That's great, but honestly, PUBLIC college in California for a state resident really doesn't cost that much.

San Jose City College:"Beginning Spring 2007, California residents pay $20 per unit for enrollment. Nonresidents pay $191 per unit in fees, plus $20 per unit for enrollment. All students are required to pay enrollment fees at the time of registration."

San Jose State University:
Fall 2008 Registration Fees (Full Time: 6.1 or More Units)
Mandatory Registration Fees Undergrad Teacher Credential Post-Bac/Grad
State University Fee $1,524.00 $1,770.00 $1,878.00
Student Association $38.00 $38.00 $38.00
Student Union $186.00 $186.00 $186.00
Facility Fee $23.00 $23.00 $23.00
Document Fee $15.00 $15.00 $15.00
Instructionally-Related Activity $99.00 $99.00 $99.00
Health Fee $75.50 $75.50 $75.50
Transit Fee $21.50 $21.50 $21.50
Recreation Fee $6.00 $6.00 $6.00
Child Care $8.00 $8.00 $8.00
Tuition Totals $1,996.00 $2,242.00 $2,350.00

Well, it was in a table that really doesn't translate well here, but you can see at the bottom (in bold) totals of what it costs for one semester, quite less than in most states. California has always highly subsidized higher learning for in-state residents.

PS Crochetbuff, very discerning! Your answer is all I think should occur if they are going to have any chance at all with these grown children. I never thought how they could appear NOT to be in favor of locking him up forever? That would have to help but as your house attorney may state, the DA can do anything he wishes to against the wishes of the family for fame etc?

Sorry, one last thingy(Yeah bad english?) Does it have to be only people on one side who post on this issue? I have No interest in coming in here and wrecking or trolling your forum! I have many forums where I am welcome and I just found this one because of this case interest I have! If this is a one-sided hang em high place, then it is your place and that is fine, but I did not think I said anything personal against another person. As for my opinion on the South, it is shared by many, probably many more than live there? It is what it is!

Yes, thanks for noticing that. I know the Baskin's won't have much if any input on the charges filed against Marvin, or plea deal or no, but I think their opinion may be be taken into some consideration. I think this is one small way to show "the kids" that they are open to compromise. Debbie said in interviews that "no punishment will make up for the 20 years we've lost" or something close to that. She's right.

Anyone can post here. Both "sides" are welcome. We try (doesn't always work) to keep things civil, repeat again, doesn't always work....

There are many mysteries still unsolved. I figure, you know... I'll do some of that.

And about sending them to College. That's great, but honestly, PUBLIC college in California for a state resident really doesn't cost that much.
Tuition Totals $1,996.00 $2,242.00 $2,350.00
Putting two students through college involves so much more "parenting" than just paying the tuition. First comes books, which is a horrendous amount. Then, it involves still paying for food, clothing, car, car insurance (which is very high in CA), and all the other expenses that go along with being an adult for four years.

Way above and beyond that, it includes the social parts of school such as having the students' friends over, walking them through romances, listening to tales of term papers and teachers with outlandish requirements, etc.

And, the fact that both kids wanted to attend college shows parenting that encouraged maturity to prepare for the future instead of settling for a job at a fast food place, and the intellectual skills to handle the college classes, along with the perseverance to graduate instead of dropping out.

Putting two students through college involves so much more "parenting" than just paying the tuition. First comes books, which is a horrendous amount. Then, it involves still paying for food, clothing, car, car insurance (which is very high in CA), and all the other expenses that go along with being an adult for four years.

Way above and beyond that, it includes the social parts of school such as having the students' friends over, walking them through romances, listening to tales of term papers and teachers with outlandish requirements, etc.

And, the fact that both kids wanted to attend college shows parenting that encouraged maturity to prepare for the future instead of settling for a job at a fast food place, and the intellectual skills to handle the college classes, along with the perseverance to graduate instead of dropping out.

pft. If you believe that Sandra Maples was a control freak, (which I do) who was greatly concerned with "keeping up with the joneses" and was concerned with outward appearances, then sending the kids to college has nothing to do with good parenting and has everything to do with pushing the kids to go to college, where dropping out would be never be considered, where they would be expected to have the best grades, and then get the best jobs. Sandra would never permit the kids she raised to be lazy video gamers who hung out in the basement being nothing but losers. That would look bad for her image.

I don't think there is any "certainly" about it. Without these accusations, Marvin has NO defense. With them, he has one. Far from doing more harm than good, it is really the only thing that does him any good. It is this potential defense, and this potential defense only, that gives him and his attorney any leverage whatsoever in negotiating a plea bargain. And, one thing I didn't mention before regarding the necessity defense--the accusations don't have to be true. It there is a necessity defense in Tennessee, and that defense is similar to such defenses in the states I've practiced in, then if Marvin reasonably believed them to be true, that is enough for him to be successful. So, if Sandra orchestrated all the allegations, but Marvin believed them, then that may be enough.

Hmm, I think I get it. If Marvin genuinely believed the children were being abused, or was some kind of dupe into thinking they were, that would be leverage for a plea bargain. It's not like he is trying to prove that Debbie and Mark were child abusers, but that he truly believed they were.

But if the prosecutor can prove Marvin didn't genuinely believe, that the whole thing had been a product of malice, spite or selfishness, then the Defence has no leverage. In which case the prosecutor will be out to slash the idea that Marvin genuinely believed in the molesting charges to shreds. He'll be asking questions like:

"If you really believed Bobby and Christie were being abused, why did you leave Michael behind with the alleged abusers?" "Don't you care about the welfare of your third grandchild?"

And:

"Oh, come on now! How could social workers, mental health workers and attorneys be all abusing the children as well?" "Do you seriously believe that???"

pft. If you believe that Sandra Maples was a control freak, (which I do) who was greatly concerned with "keeping up with the joneses" and was concerned with outward appearances, then sending the kids to college has nothing to do with good parenting and has everything to do with pushing the kids to go to college, where dropping out would be never be considered, where they would be expected to have the best grades, and then get the best jobs. Sandra would never permit the kids she raised to be lazy video gamers who hung out in the basement being nothing but losers. That would look bad for her image.
Did she insist that Debbie and both of her sisters go to college and get great grades, while paying to make that happen? if so, then you're right. If not, then your argument holds no validity.

I think that sending them to college was the natural thing to do, so they did it. Also, it does keep a son or daughter under your wing a bit longer, doesn't it? It did in my family. we had apartments adn such, but my parents paid the tuition and rent.

Blue Raider, if you go back and read, you will see that, yes, there have been some posts that seem really one-sided against the Maples. I have pointed that out before because I have a bit more of a nuetral view on the case and felt a bit out numbered. I take into account what I hear locally about the different people involved, etc.

And about Murfreesboro, I realize that it is all subjective, but when someone who's location is listed as really far away refers to a place as a small good ol' boy southern town, I personally feel like they might as well be saying that we are all running from Boss Hogg in the General Lee and wiping our sweaty In-the-heat-of-the-Night brows to people that have never stepped foot in Tennessee. That is not how Murfreesboro is! :) I do think the trial will be fair and the notion of bribes, etc., is very far fetched.

crochetbuff, you are totally right about them not living here and I knew that but got caught up for a minute and forgot. I do still want Marvin and Sandra's address so that I can look at the property records. I know it started with a P but can't remember the street name or number.

When I first heard Marvin was out on bail, I was among those who was worried he might run off again, just as he did 20 years ago.

But thinking about it more, there wouldn't be much point. After all, where would he go? He can't hide Bobby and Christie anymore, and now they are grown and getting established by themselves, it's not like he and Sandra can simply bundle them into the car and take off, as they did when Bobby and Christie were children. And if Bobby and Christie run with him this time, that will make them wanted fugitives and accomplices. And I don't want Bobby and Christie to become wanted criminals on top of everything else!

Marvin, Bobby and Christie have had their faces plastered all over the newspapers, so he wouldn't get very far; someone will be sure to recognise him.

Besides, running is not someone who believed they did the right thing would do, would it? Rather, it would be the mark of a guilty person. It would be deeply embarrassing for those who support him, and it would pour even more fuel onto the suspicions that Marvin's family has been helping him to hide for 20 years. Some Maple supporters may desert and more people would join the Baskin side.

Well said. I bet he just wanted to spend time with his family. He's too old and too recognizable to run.

I think that sending them to college was the natural thing to do, so they did it. Also, it does keep a son or daughter under your wing a bit longer, doesn't it? It did in my family. we had apartments adn such, but my parents paid the tuition and rent.

Blue Raider, if you go back and read, you will see that, yes, there have been some posts that seem really one-sided against the Maples. I have pointed that out before because I have a bit more of a nuetral view on the case and felt. I take into account what I hear locally about the different people involved, etc.

And about Murfreesboro, I realize that it is all subjective, but when someone who's location is listed as really far away refers to a place as a small good ol' boy southern town, I personally feel like they might as well be saying that we are all running from Boss Hogg in the General Lee and wiping our sweaty In-the-heat-of-the-Night brows to people that have never stepped foot in Tennessee. That is not how Murfreesboro is! :)

crochetbuff, you are totally right about them not living here and I knew that but got caught up for a minute and forgot. I do still want Marvin and Sandra's address so that I can look at the property records. I know it started with a P but can't remember the street name or number.

I do admit that some posts against the Maples here have been a bit strong. I try to control myself a bit, especially after all that fighting with a Maple relative on another thread got it locked.

Well said. I bet he just wanted to spend time with his family. He's too old and too recognizable to run.

Oh yes, that is another point; Marvin is too old to run anymore. He's probably a bit infirm as well. That slip which was his undoing is a definite sign he is past the days for running and hiding. I don't think it was alcohol since Marvin was famous for drinking juice rather than booze at the bar.

Did she insist that Debbie and both of her sisters go to college and get great grades, while paying to make that happen? if so, then you're right. If not, then your argument holds no validity.

Debbie is a teacher, that requires a college education. I don't know who paid for it. I don't know about her sister's post secondary educations.

Anyone want to offer up their knowledge of the college educations or careers of Debbie's sisters?

Whoa! I read this and did not recall anyone quoting it. I would think it was for real. The attorney mentioned is a man that just died last year, and he probably was friends with teh Baskins b/c he was their age and friends with a bunch of their friends from Oakland High. Very interesting to hear someone speak out.

Fri, 06 Feb 2009 06:02:47 My Dad, Niece and Nephew Need Our Prayers Hello everyone I wanted to forward this from my sister. The last thing I remember my father (Marvin Maple) saying to me was how much courage it took for his grandchildren who are my nephew and niece (Bobby and Christie Baskin) to speak out and tell of the abuse they had suffered, as they had been threatened with their lives if they told anyone. He said he promised them he would keep them safe. He told me he would lose everything (including his life) if that is what it took to keep his promise to them. That was 20 years ago I have not heard from or seen him, my mother, my nephew and niece since that time, other than one letter about a week after they left. They have been lost to our whole family. The last time I saw my sister, Debbie, was also 20 years ago when she and Mark sued my grandparents, my youngest sister, me and my husband for half a million dollars 3 days after we learned my parents had left. We had no prior knowledge of my parents' plans to flee, and the suit against us was dropped. When we were in court, I could hear Debbie, Mark and their attorney, Larry Trail, ranting in the hallway when they learned my parents had left no assets for them to seize. Attorney Larry Trail yelled in my face at this court hearing and so did the court juvenile referee who sat as judge. My parents had spent everything and remortgaged their home to pay for legal services to protect the children, for counseling at Vanderbilt Hospital for Bobbie and Christie, and at the end; when all their efforts to protect their grandchildren in the legal system failed ...to start a new life.

I just saw this morning on the Today Show, as the TV reporter repeated the local news story, the booking photo of my dad where he is being detained in San Jose, California. He had what appeared to be an abrasion on his forehead. He didn't have his glasses on, and he is almost blind without them. I just learned at 10pm Tuesday night that my mom is dead. Yesterday I sat hugging my 94 year old Papa yesterday as he learned the heartbreaking news that his oldest daughter was dead. Despite this, my family and friends are full of hope and pray that the truth will finally be told as to what really happened; and that the charges against my father will be dropped. I do not know what kind of resources my dad has available to him for legal counsel. I did read in the online newspaper comments from someone who knows my niece in California that my nephew and niece are trying to attain legal defense for him, that my niece remembers the abuse, they do not want to see their parents, and that they know my dad and mom are their grandparents, but choose to call them dad and mom. I believe God has protected them all these years and allowed my parents to see the fruits of their labor in raising a beautiful young man and woman and giving them the opportunity to a good life. They did not just simply disappear with these children after a single suspicion or by lightly take the law into their own hands. They fought in court for over a year. During this time the social workers who were assigned to the case were repeatedly removed and new ones were assigned. Every children's services caseworker, except for the last social worker assigned, recommended that the children stay with my parents under their protection from Mark and Debbie and Mark's family. The Rutherford County court appointed someone to oversee supervised visits between Bobby and Christie with Mark and Debbie and his family at this time. Bobby and Christie would cry and beg not to go; and after the supervised visits would cry.

If you want to talk about inconsistencies, why is it never reported by the news media or the Murfreeboro local authorities in the past 20 years that years ago, Mark Baskin filed sexual abuse charges against his own father, Mac Baskin, for abusing Bobby? The former detective with Murfreesboro Police, Carolyn McGowan, said that it was the clearest case of child sexual abuse she had ever investigated. Nevertheless, the charges were dropped. Mark and Debbie left for Kentucky shortly after that case was lost against his father. Mark and Debbie were devastated and so were my parents. They implored my parents to take all three children while Mark went to seminary school as they would be living in a very small apartment. My parents were in their 50's at this time and said no at first. They then agreed to keep the two oldest children as they would be in kindergarten and first grade that fall. My mom thought she would be able to handle that. The youngest child was only 4, and she didn't think she could emotionally or physically meet the demands of caring for all three. Bobby was almost 6 and Christie was 7 at this time. It was after they had been living with my parents, that they told them that their parents were involved in the abuse not just Mark's father. My parents did not want to prosecute their own daughter with criminal charges and filed a civil case to get permanent custody to protect their grandchildren. They also called the authorities in Kentucky to ask for protection for Mark and Debbie's youngest child.

Det. Carolyn McGowan called me twice during the first 2 years after my parents left to ask if I had heard from them or had any knowledge of their whereabouts. The last time she called was around 18 years ago. I asked her how she could be treating my parents as criminals now, after she had so firmly believed the charges against Mark's father. She said it was the anniversary of their disappearance, and she was just doing her job. She said would never wish any harm on Bobby and Christie. I still couldn't understand how she could justify putting the children in jeopardy and asked her again to explain herself. Ms. McGowan then told me that she thought the sexual abuse of Bobby and Christie by their parents and Mark's family had been "an isolated incident or two of sexual abuse", which my parents had greatly exaggerated. I have NEVER read or heard of any case of a pedophile stopping the abuse without admitting any wrong or getting any help when they have continued access and opportunity. Also, how many incidents of child sexual abuse have to occur before it is wrong? The Murfreesboro police have never tried to speak with me or anyone in my family again in the past 18 years. The Murfreesboro news media has never tried to speak to me, or anyone who might have another point of view opposing the Baskins.

When I learned from the newspaper that the television show "Unsolved Mysteries" was taping the segment in Murfreesboro, I called them. They were not interested in talking to me or the children's' teachers or doctors or any other community or family member that I could reference that might disagree with what the Baskins claimed was true. They told me they already had their "story". My husband did have a call at one time several years ago when Mark was applying for a position at a church in another city in Georgia or Florida. The man calling was asking for a character reference on Mark. He said that Mark and Debbie had been receiving "love offerings" to help finance their search for their missing children and something didn't seem quite right to him. I have also been told by my friends that have contact with the Baskins that Debbie and Mark had kept a bank account to receive donations over the years. Mark and Debbie have also lived in Florida and I'm not sure how many times they have moved. Mark has always had positions of authority over children as a Boy Scout leader, church youth pastor, school teacher, etc. Debbie has home schooled their children. They have also had several foster children in their home. This one-sided media story is substantiated only by what the Baskins say and what was found in Rutherford County's legal system. This was/is at best a flawed, understaffed, overworked court system in Murfreesboro OR at worst a prejudiced and corrupt local legal system with close friends of the Baskins in authority which have prevailed until now. I believe God is sovereign and will have final authority in the end. I pray and am asking others to join me in praying that it is not asking too much to see a little justice now. May God continue to watch over my father and give him and my nephew and niece strength and help to meet their needs. Signed: Sherry Maple Dallas (oldest daughter of Marvin L. & Sandra Maple)

Whoa! I read this and did not recall anyone quoting it. I would think it was for real. The attorney mentioned is a man that just died last year, and he probably was friends with teh Baskins b/c he was their age and friends with a bunch of their friends from Oakland High. Very interesting to hear someone speak out.

Fri, 06 Feb 2009 06:02:47 My Dad, Niece and Nephew Need Our Prayers Hello everyone I wanted to forward this from my sister. The last thing I remember my father (Marvin Maple) saying to me was how much courage it took for his grandchildren who are my nephew and niece (Bobby and Christie Baskin) to speak out and tell of the abuse they had suffered, as they had been threatened with their lives if they told anyone. He said he promised them he would keep them safe. He told me he would lose everything (including his life) if that is what it took to keep his promise to them. That was 20 years ago I have not heard from or seen him, my mother, my nephew and niece since that time, other than one letter about a week after they left. They have been lost to our whole family. The last time I saw my sister, Debbie, was also 20 years ago when she and Mark sued my grandparents, my youngest sister, me and my husband for half a million dollars 3 days after we learned my parents had left. We had no prior knowledge of my parents' plans to flee, and the suit against us was dropped. When we were in court, I could hear Debbie, Mark and their attorney, Larry Trail, ranting in the hallway when they learned my parents had left no assets for them to seize. Attorney Larry Trail yelled in my face at this court hearing and so did the court juvenile referee who sat as judge. My parents had spent everything and remortgaged their home to pay for legal services to protect the children, for counseling at Vanderbilt Hospital for Bobbie and Christie, and at the end; when all their efforts to protect their grandchildren in the legal system failed ...to start a new life.

I just saw this morning on the Today Show, as the TV reporter repeated the local news story, the booking photo of my dad where he is being detained in San Jose, California. He had what appeared to be an abrasion on his forehead. He didn't have his glasses on, and he is almost blind without them. I just learned at 10pm Tuesday night that my mom is dead. Yesterday I sat hugging my 94 year old Papa yesterday as he learned the heartbreaking news that his oldest daughter was dead. Despite this, my family and friends are full of hope and pray that the truth will finally be told as to what really happened; and that the charges against my father will be dropped. I do not know what kind of resources my dad has available to him for legal counsel. I did read in the online newspaper comments from someone who knows my niece in California that my nephew and niece are trying to attain legal defense for him, that my niece remembers the abuse, they do not want to see their parents, and that they know my dad and mom are their grandparents, but choose to call them dad and mom. I believe God has protected them all these years and allowed my parents to see the fruits of their labor in raising a beautiful young man and woman and giving them the opportunity to a good life. They did not just simply disappear with these children after a single suspicion or by lightly take the law into their own hands. They fought in court for over a year. During this time the social workers who were assigned to the case were repeatedly removed and new ones were assigned. Every children's services caseworker, except for the last social worker assigned, recommended that the children stay with my parents under their protection from Mark and Debbie and Mark's family. The Rutherford County court appointed someone to oversee supervised visits between Bobby and Christie with Mark and Debbie and his family at this time. Bobby and Christie would cry and beg not to go; and after the supervised visits would cry.

If you want to talk about inconsistencies, why is it never reported by the news media or the Murfreeboro local authorities in the past 20 years that years ago, Mark Baskin filed sexual abuse charges against his own father, Mac Baskin, for abusing Bobby? The former detective with Murfreesboro Police, Carolyn McGowan, said that it was the clearest case of child sexual abuse she had ever investigated. Nevertheless, the charges were dropped. Mark and Debbie left for Kentucky shortly after that case was lost against his father. Mark and Debbie were devastated and so were my parents. They implored my parents to take all three children while Mark went to seminary school as they would be living in a very small apartment. My parents were in their 50's at this time and said no at first. They then agreed to keep the two oldest children as they would be in kindergarten and first grade that fall. My mom thought she would be able to handle that. The youngest child was only 4, and she didn't think she could emotionally or physically meet the demands of caring for all three. Bobby was almost 6 and Christie was 7 at this time. It was after they had been living with my parents, that they told them that their parents were involved in the abuse not just Mark's father. My parents did not want to prosecute their own daughter with criminal charges and filed a civil case to get permanent custody to protect their grandchildren. They also called the authorities in Kentucky to ask for protection for Mark and Debbie's youngest child.

Det. Carolyn McGowan called me twice during the first 2 years after my parents left to ask if I had heard from them or had any knowledge of their whereabouts. The last time she called was around 18 years ago. I asked her how she could be treating my parents as criminals now, after she had so firmly believed the charges against Mark's father. She said it was the anniversary of their disappearance, and she was just doing her job. She said would never wish any harm on Bobby and Christie. I still couldn't understand how she could justify putting the children in jeopardy and asked her again to explain herself. Ms. McGowan then told me that she thought the sexual abuse of Bobby and Christie by their parents and Mark's family had been "an isolated incident or two of sexual abuse", which my parents had greatly exaggerated. I have NEVER read or heard of any case of a pedophile stopping the abuse without admitting any wrong or getting any help when they have continued access and opportunity. Also, how many incidents of child sexual abuse have to occur before it is wrong? The Murfreesboro police have never tried to speak with me or anyone in my family again in the past 18 years. The Murfreesboro news media has never tried to speak to me, or anyone who might have another point of view opposing the Baskins.

When I learned from the newspaper that the television show "Unsolved Mysteries" was taping the segment in Murfreesboro, I called them. They were not interested in talking to me or the children's' teachers or doctors or any other community or family member that I could reference that might disagree with what the Baskins claimed was true. They told me they already had their "story". My husband did have a call at one time several years ago when Mark was applying for a position at a church in another city in Georgia or Florida. The man calling was asking for a character reference on Mark. He said that Mark and Debbie had been receiving "love offerings" to help finance their search for their missing children and something didn't seem quite right to him. I have also been told by my friends that have contact with the Baskins that Debbie and Mark had kept a bank account to receive donations over the years. Mark and Debbie have also lived in Florida and I'm not sure how many times they have moved. Mark has always had positions of authority over children as a Boy Scout leader, church youth pastor, school teacher, etc. Debbie has home schooled their children. They have also had several foster children in their home. This one-sided media story is substantiated only by what the Baskins say and what was found in Rutherford County's legal system. This was/is at best a flawed, understaffed, overworked court system in Murfreesboro OR at worst a prejudiced and corrupt local legal system with close friends of the Baskins in authority which have prevailed until now. I believe God is sovereign and will have final authority in the end. I pray and am asking others to join me in praying that it is not asking too much to see a little justice now. May God continue to watch over my father and give him and my nephew and niece strength and help to meet their needs. Signed: Sherry Maple Dallas (oldest daughter of Marvin L. & Sandra Maple)

Thank you, Mystery Momma. This sounds similar to stuff I have read before - but one thing makes me doubt it is genuine. It is signed "Sherry Maple Dallas (oldest daughter of Marvin L. & Sandra Maple)". The emphasis is mine. Sherry is not the oldest daughter of Sandra and Marvin Maple - Debbie is!!!

Putting two students through college involves so much more "parenting" than just paying the tuition. First comes books, which is a horrendous amount. Then, it involves still paying for food, clothing, car, car insurance (which is very high in CA), and all the other expenses that go along with being an adult for four years.

Way above and beyond that, it includes the social parts of school such as having the students' friends over, walking them through romances, listening to tales of term papers and teachers with outlandish requirements, etc.

And, the fact that both kids wanted to attend college shows parenting that encouraged maturity to prepare for the future instead of settling for a job at a fast food place, and the intellectual skills to handle the college classes, along with the perseverance to graduate instead of dropping out.

What planet are you from??? First of all, NO ONE has any idea who paid for their college, if they worked, if they had loans, etc. NO ONE knows what emotional support they did or didn't get.

Furthermore, my parents were great but they didn't need to "walk me through romances" and all the other stuff you mentioned. I was a big boy in college. You make it sound like they had to hold their hands just to get through college. WTF???

I think you are trying to draw pretty big conclusions on the kind of "parents" Old Marv and Sandy MapleS were but you have NO IDEA because NONE OF US do. Unless you are family member who has been talking to them all along? If you aren't, you are making some huge assumptions.

Finally, whether they were good "parents" or whether they paid for college or not, Old Marv and Sandy are guilty of KIDNAPPING. That is a fact and it is not in dispute.

"Undecided"? Whatever... :rolleyes:

What planet are you from??? First of all, NO ONE has any idea who paid for their college, if they worked, if they had loans, etc. NO ONE knows what emotional support they did or didn't get.

Furthermore, my parents were great but they didn't need to "walk me through romances" and all the other stuff you mentioned. I was a big boy in college. You make it sound like they had to hold their hands just to get through college. WTF???

I think you are trying to draw pretty big conclusions on the kind of "parents" Old Marv and Sandy MapleS were but you have NO IDEA because NONE OF US do. Unless you are family member who has been talking to them all along? If you aren't, you are making some huge assumptions.

Finally, whether they were good "parents" or whether they paid for college or not, Old Marv and Sandy are guilty of KIDNAPPING. That is a fact and it is not in dispute.

"Undecided"? Whatever... :rolleyes:
Why are you attacking me personally instead of simply discussing the points I'm making? (A side question: why add an s to Maple "Old Marv and Sandy MapleS"?)

Debbie is a teacher, that requires a college education. I don't know who paid for it.
I think that is a recent career move.

Why are you attacking me personally instead of simply discussing the points I'm making?

I'm not attacking you personally. I am attacking the views you shared. Sorry you took it personally. I happen to think, in my opinion, that your views are completely whacked out.

What I am saying is that if by "Undecided" you mean you are "undecided" about the Baskin case, you seem to be giving a lot of kudos to the MapleS for the awesome job they must have done as parents for things that aren't even proven yet. If that is the case, I think it hardly makes you "undecided."

Also, there have been a TON of recent new members to this forum who are from the extended MapleS family and are here trying to defend them for kidnapping. If you are not one of them, I apologize (and I mean it). If you are, shame on you (and I mean it).

Thank you, Mystery Momma. This sounds similar to stuff I have read before - but one thing makes me doubt it is genuine. It is signed "Sherry Maple Dallas (oldest daughter of Marvin L. & Sandra Maple)". The emphasis is mine. Sherry is not the oldest daughter of Sandra and Marvin Maple - Debbie is!!!

I think she signed that letter as the oldest daughter because her side of the family has disowned Debbie as part of their family. So she considers herself the oldest daughter of the Maples. It's dumb but whatever.

That whole thing was quite a read. But in the end, she can't prove that Christi and Bobby were abused anymore than anyone else could. Her parents told her these things happened so naturally she believes it and won't believe otherwise. I guess I can understand her wanting to trust her parents word but her opinion is no strong defense for Marvin.

And the Michael issue is still looming around. She mentions that the Maples didn't think they could handle raising Michael while Mark and Debbie settled in Louisville and then starts to ramble that child molesters (in this case Mark and Debbie) don't stop mollesting children because they are sick. So, where is the concern for Michael? If the Maples truly believed that he was in danger like Bobby and Christi, they would have done everything to make sure they had custody of Michael as well once they were rewarded temporary custody of the other children.

Believe it or not, despite the fact that I have vocally despised the Maples on this board for many years, I have recently tried to listen to their family members point of view with an open mind. But every single one of them that defends Marvin and Sandra always ends up making them sound worse. And they arrogantly talk as if they know the real truth simply because they are related to these people despite the fact they were never present when this alleged abuse took place.

It's such a shame to see what this family has become.

Believe it or not, despite the fact that I have vocally despised the Maples on this board for many years, I have recently tried to listen to their family members point of view with an open mind...

It's such a shame to see what this family has become.


I agree on both points, dynoguy.

The problem is that we don't have any "real" statements from the MapleS. If they had the guts to go on national TV and tell their story, so be it. But they would rather come here and sign up under bogus names or go to the newspaper sights and make repeated posts under different names -- none of which can be verified.

I'm not saying the Baskins were perfect parents -- I don't know that any more than I know if the MapleS were good to Bobby and Christie after they kidnapped them. But what I do know is that the MapleS are guilty of kidnapping since they didn't not have legal custody and took those two kids. (Please note I'm not arguing with you, dynoguy... just discussing. ;) )

Let's assume the MapleS were perfect parents and took the kids away from an abusive home. That still doesn't make it right or legal. I think O.J. is guilty of two murders. He was found not guilty in court. Even if I "knew" he was guilty, do I have the right to go up and shoot him in the head? Hell NO! That is called vigilante justice.

Dynoguy, I have to commend you for your candore on this thread. You were a lot more involved in this case than any of us and you have been pretty calm and open. Unfortunately, I can't say the same from myself. After becoming a parent, I identify way too much with the thought of having your kids kidnapped, especially by the grandparents.

If the MapleS were so concerned, why didn't they protect the youngest child too? Why didn't they do all they could with the police and the courts if there is so much evidence of abuse?

If the MapleS were really the heroes in this case, then they sure went about it all wrong. Marvin will get his say in court, but no matter what the circumstances he will try to show, he is still guilty of kidnapping and because of that he is still going to jail for a long time.

I'm not attacking you personally. I am attacking the views you shared. Sorry you took it personally.

Starting with "What planet are you from???" and carrying through "WTF???" and ending with ""Undecided"? Whatever..." along with an eyeroll makes your note a personal attack.

What I am saying is that if by "Undecided" you mean you are "undecided" about the Baskin case, you seem to be giving a lot of kudos to the MapleS for the awesome job they must have done as parents for things that aren't even proven yet. If that is the case, I think it hardly makes you "undecided."
It's exactly BECAUSE I can see both sides that I'm still undecided. I do agree with you that the Maples (why do you use the large s at the end each time you write it?) committed a crime by kidnapping the kids. That's perfectly clear. All of the reasons behind everyone's behavior is something that no one will ever know. And, I'm just not sure that any of it is clear enough to make any decisions on regarding who had what motives since there are so many factors.

Actually, my goal in posting about the difficulties of sending a child through college was not so much to defend anyone, but rather to show the other side of what the person I was replying to was saying. She said that the bill isn't all that big -- I just said that there is a lot more to it than paying a bill. Does that automatically mean that I think that the Maples were great parents? No. It just means that her supposed evidence was weak.

Also, there have been a TON of recent new members to this forum who are from the extended MapleS family and are here trying to defend them for kidnapping. If you are not one of them, I apologize (and I mean it).
Yes, you owe me a HUGE apology for that false statement.

Qoute:
"Originally Posted by Undecided
Putting two students through college involves so much more "parenting" than just paying the tuition. First comes books, which is a horrendous amount. Then, it involves still paying for food, clothing, car, car insurance (which is very high in CA), and all the other expenses that go along with being an adult for four years.

Way above and beyond that, it includes the social parts of school such as having the students' friends over, walking them through romances, listening to tales of term papers and teachers with outlandish requirements, etc.
And, the fact that both kids wanted to attend college shows parenting that encouraged maturity to prepare for the future instead of settling for a job at a fast food place, and the intellectual skills to handle the college classes, along with the perseverance to graduate instead of dropping out."

My jaw always drops in amazement when I read the dozens of statements on this board that say, pretty much this: "I saw from their DMV photos that they are well rounded people. Th grandparents did a great job razing them"

We especially don't know that "They had other students over to the house" or grandparents "walking them through romances"

My intuition is the opposite. I.E. that borderline Sandra isolated them as musch as possible growing up and that if they did go to college it was because they couldn't be released to society which would result in getting the Maples caught.

Even IF they (including Marvin) did have an active social life, I am sure it wasn't the random friends a kid runs into and befriends, but the preselected children of chosen parents. When the kids found their own friend the answer would be "you are sick and cannot play today Bobby", or "they play too ruff, you don't want to play with them" or whatever.

As if it makes a difference. The issue isn't Micheal got a PHD, so they should have stayed with the Baskins" or "Paul flunked junior high so its ok to kidnap the others. /

Take another look at a portion of the statement supposedly from Sherry Maple Dallas:

Det. Carolyn McGowan called me twice during the first 2 years after my parents left to ask if I had heard from them or had any knowledge of their whereabouts. The last time she called was around 18 years ago. I asked her how she could be treating my parents as criminals now, after she had so firmly believed the charges against Mark's father. She said it was the anniversary of their disappearance, and she was just doing her job. She said would never wish any harm on Bobby and Christie. I still couldn't understand how she could justify putting the children in jeopardy and asked her again to explain herself. Ms. McGowan then told me that she thought the sexual abuse of Bobby and Christie by their parents and Mark's family had been "an isolated incident or two of sexual abuse", which my parents had greatly exaggerated. I have NEVER read or heard of any case of a pedophile stopping the abuse without admitting any wrong or getting any help when they have continued access and opportunity. Also, how many incidents of child sexual abuse have to occur before it is wrong? The Murfreesboro police have never tried to speak with me or anyone in my family again in the past 18 years. The Murfreesboro news media has never tried to speak to me, or anyone who might have another point of view opposing the Baskins.


The poster says that Detective McGowan thought the sexual abuse committed by the parents and Mark's family was an isolated case - but that means that the Murfreesboro police accepted the allegations that abuse happened. But if the police accept it happened, why were the Maples not granted permanent custody? Why would the Maples need to run? Why were the parents not charged? Why was custody returned to them? The Maple family will probably say that the Baskins paid off the courts (yeah, right).

And what police officer would say a thing like that, anyway?

There is only one answer to this comment: the poster is simply lying. I sure hope it isn't Sherry Maple Dallas! :mad:

My jaw always drops in amazement when I read the dozens of statements on this board that say, pretty much this: "I saw from their DMV photos that they are well rounded people. Th grandparents did a great job razing them"

We especially don't know that "They had other students over to the house" or grandparents "walking them through romances"
Well, I certainly have never made judgments based on the DMV photos, and like you, have been amazed at people who have said that (yes, I've seen those sorts of posts, too).

However, you're reading more into my note than I said, so your inferences went way beyond the scope of what I posted. I did NOT say that i was sure that the Maples did the social things that I listed as components of sending young adults to college. I said that in general parenting college students includes those sorts of interactions, with my main point being that it is more than just paying the bills like the person I was responding to said when she listed the cost of state college in Calif.

Finally, whether they were good "parents" or whether they paid for college or not, Old Marv and Sandy are guilty of KIDNAPPING. That is a fact and it is not in dispute.
I'm sorry, but this statement is just flat out wrong. It is not an undisputed fact that they are guilty of kidnapping. It is undisputed that they took the children without having legal custody. But, whether what Marvin did is kidnapping is for a jury to decide. And, if Tennessee has a necesity defense, then he could be legally not guilty of kidnapping if he reasonably believed it was necessary to protect the children from sexual abuse.

I have almost zero doubt that the allegations of abuse made against the Baskins are untrue. They have all the hallmarks of false allegations, especially with the escalating allegations of satanism, and the social workers and attorneys also being involved in abusing the kids. But, Marvin is entitled to his day in court, and to present a full defense. And until a jury says he is guilty of kidnapping, or he admits that he is guilty of kidnapping, it is simply not an undisputed fact that he is.

I'm sorry, but this statement is just flat out wrong. It is not an undisputed fact that they are guilty of kidnapping. It is undisputed that they took the children without having legal custody. But, whether what Marvin did is kidnapping is for a jury to decide.


Sorry. I am not a lawyer, judge, paralegal, or anything like that. Based on your username, I take you are a lawyer.

By saying he is "guilty" I was using it in the street sense and not the legal sense. Like saying "He is guilty of being an ass" meaning that a man was acting like an ass, not that he has been found guilty of being an ass in a court of law. Sorry for any legal confusion. I was not trying to imply that he had been found guilty by a jury and/or judge.

You said what I was trying to say: It is undisputed that they took the children without having legal custody. Please forgive my lack of proper legalese.

I was just trying to make the point that Marvin and Sandra took those kids without the legal right to do so. It doesn't matter why or how, they did NOT have the legal rights to custody and they did not have the legal rights to take those kids to California. Call it what you want, it was illegal.

I'll be more careful in the future. So I officially retract me earlier statement of "Marvin is guilty of kidnapping" and change it to "Marvin did not have legal custody of the children and he took them to another state without having said legal custody and held them there possibly against their will although that may not matter since we will never know and they were minors anyway."

I still think "Marvin is guilty of kidnapping" is more succinct. Thank you for the legal clarification. :D

By the way, what do you call a car full of lawyers going over a cliff? A good start. :lol: (Just kidding, of course... My brother-in-law is a lawyer and he uses that one all the time. I bet if you are a lawyer you have to have a good sense of humor.)

Can I just add...
about f'kn time :D

And yeah this had been made news in Australia too.

I think that is a recent career move.

Ok. So Debbie's recent career move was to become a 5th grade math teacher in either a public or private school. College education required. I don't know who paid for it.

Before that, sources say she homeschooled her kids. Which is an odd coincidence, since her mother homeschooled her kidnapped kids.

What states did she homeschool her remaining children? If it was TN, West VA, and some other states, a valid teaching degree (college education) would have been required back in the 1990s.

Perhaps she was college educated early on, became a mom, homeschooled her kids on her teaching degree, and then when they got older, she made a career move?

Putting two students through college involves so much more "parenting" than just paying the tuition. First comes books, which is a horrendous amount. Then, it involves still paying for food, clothing, car, car insurance (which is very high in CA), and all the other expenses that go along with being an adult for four years.

Way above and beyond that, it includes the social parts of school such as having the students' friends over, walking them through romances, listening to tales of term papers and teachers with outlandish requirements, etc.

And, the fact that both kids wanted to attend college shows parenting that encouraged maturity to prepare for the future instead of settling for a job at a fast food place, and the intellectual skills to handle the college classes, along with the perseverance to graduate instead of dropping out.


Oh, yes, definately, as one doing just that now for one of my kids can attest to! I just meant, it doesn't necessarily make them some kind of saint. I did in the first part of my post, say that I had thought they would do the best that they could under the circumstances (living on the run with false identities...) to raise them well, as they had their 3 daughters. My DH put himself through college with only 1 semi-supportive parent and paid for it all himself, tuition, books & room and board. So even people from not so great families can attain it, esp. in CA.

I think that is a recent career move.


Yes, I think she had some college earlier in life, but finished whatever she needed to, recently on her own.

Loses children, to the grandfather, knowing they are probably alive, real chance they are alive, but instead of intense searching and pain, we adopt MORE children? Is that a need for children or what? Then a job that has power over families and children? Can we look at this more, deeper! And money was raised, whoa!




Yes, the Baskin's did adopt another child, one to give some companionship to the remaining sibling of Christi and Bobby, and to give them another reason to continue in life and replace some of the joy they had lost. They did experience intense searching and pain. People at a church in Rome, GA raised money so they could hire a P.I., they worked to have the case on U.M., they always searched and kept in touch with their FBI agent and other authorities. It was virtually like looking for 4 needles in a HUGE haystack.

Mark has been a school teacher in several places with no complaints filed, and has been a minister in several churches. Debbie has taught piano lessons for years, just recently started teaching public school. No one besides those who believe the Maple side, has had anything bad to say about Mark or Debbie. Their reputations were completely slandered by Debbie's parents, with several investigations finding nothing to substatiate the accusations.

I too, would love to see the ENTIRE file or files on this case to read what charges really were or were not filed, against whom, etc... Fact remains, the actual court case against Marvin will be about kidnapping, not about putting the Baskins on trial again.

Dynoguy, I have to commend you for your candore on this thread. You were a lot more involved in this case than any of us and you have been pretty calm and open. Unfortunately, I can't say the same from myself. After becoming a parent, I identify way too much with the thought of having your kids kidnapped, especially by the grandparents.

I completely understand where you are coming from when you state that and I say this as someone who has no desire to ever have children. A family abduction affects a whole bunch of people...not just the ones who are directly involved. What the Maples did by kidnapping Christi and Bobby, even if they truly thought they were being abused, was deprive those kids of a HUGE family that loved them...not just Debbie and Mark. And that is one of the main reasons I feel no pity for Marvin. There were many things he and his wife could have done legally if they truly thought those kids were in any danger from their parents. But they chose not to do that. They ran and left the third grandchild behind.

Thank you for the kind words but my opinion regarding this whole mess hasn't really changed. I still don't trust anything that comes out of Marvin's mouth. The timing of the Maple's accusations against Debbie and Mark are just a little too convenient. And those photos of the Baskin children playing in the park and having a blast with their parents in April of 1988 - less than one month before Debbie and Mark lost custody of them - show me no signs of children that are scared to be around their satanic and mollesting parents who consistently abuse them. .

I just try to control myself for this topic better now because I'm thrilled that the kids are alive and want to discuss it without fear of having another thread locked.

Replying to the info contained in the letter supposedly from Sherry Maple Dallas.

If Debbie and Mark were so adamant about Mark's father being prosecuted (if this is true) for abuse of the children and were so distraught about the case falling through, then it doesn't make sense that they were also abusing the children, now does it? If they were in on it too, they would have been relieved no evidence was found and/or the case was thrown out. Right?

Also, as someone else I believe has already pointed out here, what are the chances that 3 people within the same family had no conscience about abusing these children. I find it highly doubtful that that is the case. Maybe Sr Baskin did abuse them, but that doesn't automatically mean the parents did too. And I think very unlikely!

As crochetbuff pointed out, they have had no one else other than the Maples ever say they are anything but awesome people. Child molesters do not stop molesting. And my guess is, if the other two, Michael and Paul, were abused in any way, Michael would not have stayed in his parents' home once he was old enough to move out and most definitely would not pursue a degree in ministry.....especially if his parents were in ministry and did awful things to him.

And why would Mark pay good money, his own, not his parents', and take the time to go to seminary if he was a practicing satanist? (I don't think this point was brought up in the letter though. But comes from other sources.) All that just doesn't make sense. I seriously doubt that Christi and Bobby made the claims about their parents without any coercion.

And I will also say that in that letter, it states no one in the media has ever contacted the Maple family for a statement....."The Murfreesboro news media has never tried to speak to me, or anyone who might have another point of view opposing the Baskins." Not sure if the link was posted here or not, but there was a news report where the reporter stated she was standing in front of one of Marvin Maple's daughters and she declined to speak with them. Of course, after the fact, they may not want the coverage, but it is not true that media has never tried to cover their angle.

I know a lot of church of Christ people (like the Maples) and lot of Baptist people (like the Baskins).

I find it incredibly difficult to believe that a Baptist pastor was molesting his own children while conducting satan worship ceremonies.

Now that "look at it burn, Omar" guy... yeah, I can see him being a satanist. Definitely. He was calling up the "ancient spirit" and everything. That's more of the kind of freaky behavior that can be expected from a satanist. From what I can tell, there are no satanists in seminary school.

The much more obvious situation in the Maples/Baskin case is that grandma and grandpa got used to having the grandkids living with them for a year or two and when it was revealed that the parents were going to reclaim custody, they did the selfish thing and ran off with the kids.

They had to jump on the "they're satan worshipping child molesters" bandwagon fad to try to lend credibility to their claim to the kids.

Blueraider says:
"I assume many of us recall that this was the period after/during the McMartin abuse fiasco and wasn't there also one up North as well?

While those were found not to be what appeared, it gets me that if you dare say the word Satan in abuse, you are ridiculed right away!

I don't mean Satan as the Devil did it so to speak, but as it was done in a Satan like manner?"


Here is an interesting link for the ancient definition of "The Accuser" (i.e. the biblical Satan) from a bible dictionary. It seems the problem with false accusations has been around a long time. The definition certainly fits the charactors in this case, with Baskin's seminary school and all. Especially this part:
"seeking to uphold his influence among men by bringing false charges against Christians, with the view of weakening their influence and injuring the cause with which they are identified."

http://sacred-texts.com/bib/ebd/ebd006.htm

"Accuser Satan is styled the "accuser of the brethren" (Rev 12:10. Compare Job 1:6; Zac 3:1), as seeking to uphold his influence among men by bringing false charges against Christians, with the view of weakening their influence and injuring the cause with which they are identified. He was regarded by the Jews as the accuser of men before God, laying to their charge the violations of the law of which they were guilty, and demanding their punishment. The same Greek word, rendered "accuser," is found in Joh 8:10 (but omitted in the Revised Version); Act 23:30, Act 23:35; Act 24:8; Act 25:16, Act 25:18, in all of which places it is used of one who brings a charge against another."

In conclusion Blueraider, one should be careful not to get carried away in having faith in unverified or unverifiable suspician and accusations. It is this hysteria that leads one to "do things in a Satan like manner"

"I don't mean Satan as the Devil did it so to speak, but as it was done in a Satan like manner"

Well it is naive to state that a Satanist would not be in seminary school. They don't open a store selling Subways for a living!

Now I do NOT wish to slur the Baskins anymore but in general, a Satanist would be exactly a priest, a pastor, a child worker of some sort, a teacher etc, that is the thrust of their actions, to lie, to be an imposter that uses his station to get what they want, the perceived power they think they get form their actions.

I don't think the Baskins or too many others from that time period would be involved in sanctified Stan worship per say! I think it was a Hysteria at the time many were caught up in, especially the naive.

The vast majority of true Satan worshipers would be stereo type freaks, but the most dangerous would be the ones in it for true evil and I just can't see this on these folks and in truth, that would be a small minority at all, but don't say it would never be so due to their job as a pastor or have you missed the news on priests over the years and in fact it is those priests that must make you NOT give any Preacher of any type a free pass at all!

Again, I do NOT think the Baskins would have been that deep, cause that is a B movie plot, but it can occur, just not this time?

I also do not believe that they just stole two children to have them for themselves. It is not that simple to do what they did for 20 years just to have children. There was more to it than that motivation for sure.

Do I really have to cite the numerous preachers from all religions that have been convicted in just TN alone of crimes against children? You just can't be putting those folks on a silver pedestal can you? That is like saying nowadays that a female teacher would never sleep with a student way younger than herself ya know, like it is against female human nature and professional teachers to do and I hope we all know how untrue that is anymore!

If I could only show you the names of the families where Uncle Fred, or Aunty EM perped on the child and they are well known families and we have to set near them at the ball park knowing what has been done to their children, while they snooty act like they are better than others, etc.

Quote"what are the chances that 3 people within the same family had no conscience about abusing these children." Shessh talk about naive, that is a Southern tradition and it is documented that these types of case are into the 1,000s in the last 20m years alone! It just kills my wife when a person will say, well grandaddy did it to me and I turned out all right, why is she/he acting so crazy etc?

Finally, for you Boro folks, did you know that there is a center for teens and 10-12 year olds that is ONLY for sexual abuse children. I mean the ones that did the abuse to other children? It is a secret! It is less than 1/2 mile from the Discovery school and MTSU and there are no bars, etc, they can sneak off anytime they really wish too. It freaked me out to find that out and I am certain if the public knew, they would be outraged! Just like the system will NOT allow us to tell a teacher that little Johnny or Jane was just released from that place and has a history of Child sexual abuse!

First off, I think you are confusing satanism with sin. Those are two different things. In satanism, people actual worship satan as a god. With sin, you may believe in the One true God, but choose to do wrong (even evil) things. So while I do know there are members of the clergy who molest, they are not practicing satanism necessarily and I would even say not very likely practicing satanism. Of course, I guess they *could* hide that they've switched over from the one true God to worshipping satan and keep it secret. Not sure that's very common though. That'd be worshiping two different gods.

And my point about Mark Baskin is that he was in seminary, spending lots money and time to pursue a Christian doctorine degree. If he was a satanist, he would not want to study that. Again, pointing out that satanism is NOT the same thing as sin. Sure he could have had sin in his life at that time, but practicing satanism??? I don't think so. If he was a practicing satanist, he surely would not be interested in hearing the Word of God. Just like if there was a degree in satanic worship, I'm sure a satan worshipper would not be spending their time and money to go satan school when they really believe in God. Just doesn't make sense. Like I said before, some may turn from God after their seminary training, but pursuing God and practicing satanism at the same time.....why??? Why not get another degree that makes more money??? Just doesn't make sense. Again, clarifying there is a difference between practicing satanism and choosing to commit a sin.

And my point about it not being likely that 3 people within the same family would molest these two children is valid. First, Debbie wasn't raised by the Baskins. It's not likely she was molested by them. And no where has it been raised that she was ever molested any time in her lifetime. Again, not likely she was a participant.

Yes, I know when a father (or mother) abuses their child in any way, they also have to propensity to abuse. That's common knowledge. My point was Mark has never said his father abused him. And if the letter from above is true, then surely if Mark was ever abused by his father he would have stepped up and declared that in the case with his own father. That would have been a sure way to make sure he didn't get away with it. Again, becoming even more unlikely the parents molested the kids.

And furthermore, my main point was molesters usually do it in private. It's not something they invite their spouse in on and certainly not their own father.......especially if they had been a victim themselves from that parent. That is why I say it is not likely all three were in on some kind of sexual abuse. All things combined make it even more unlikely that their parents abused them.

Yep, what jptate said.

A full on satan worshipper, as the Baskins were accused by the Maples, isn't going to waste time and money going to seminary school and spend all his time in church preaching from the Bible.

And IF the Baskins were the 2 in a bazillion who in their time off from their church duties of praying for and visiting the sick, and preparing 3 sermons a week, were in fact casting evil spells and dancing around naked in the light of black candles while praising satan in an orgy of pedophilia, then why did the Maples leave the third grandchild to that fate while rescuing only the two oldest?

There seems to be huge fuss as to whether the Baskins posted a reward for the return of their children or not. If I remember the UM segment correctly, there was a reward, but why do Maple defenders have to make such a huge fuss about it? There's no crime in the Baskins posting a reward, is there?:rolleyes:

Incidentally, we now have some people eligible to claim the reward. I wonder if they will do so?