What did the investigator mean by the murderer was obviously an ex-con with regards to what he did to Jay?

I think the way he tied him up was a red flag to investigators that he had been in prison at some point in his life. They way the knots were done or something I can't recall specifics but there was tip-off that they were likely dealing with someone who was already "in the system" so to speak.

You know, I have been wondering the same thing ever since I first saw that feature. I disagree with DarkDante that he tipped off why they believe it, rather I think the officer doesn’t make it clear WHY they think its someone who has been inside the penal system. All he says is (paraphrasing) “without going into specifics, there were things done to Jay that we see inside prison walls”.

I glean from that statement that jay was in some way tortured before being killed and perhaps because of the types of bruises or ligature marks, or maybe the area of the body he was tortured at, the evidence points to a suspect familiar with prison violence.

That then begs the question, “What kind of injury/evidence is typical of prison violence but atypical of violence in the outside world?”

You know, I have been wondering the same thing ever since I first saw that feature. I disagree with DarkDante that he tipped off why they believe it, rather I think the officer doesn’t make it clear WHY they think its someone who has been inside the penal system. All he says is (paraphrasing) “without going into specifics, there were things done to Jay that we see inside prison walls”.

I glean from that statement that jay was in some way tortured before being killed and perhaps because of the types of bruises or ligature marks, or maybe the area of the body he was tortured at, the evidence points to a suspect familiar with prison violence.

That then begs the question, “What kind of injury/evidence is typical of prison violence but atypical of violence in the outside world?”

From stuff I learned in my criminal justice classes, chances are there was physical and/or sexual torture. They're probably keeping the specifics on the DL so when they someday (we hope) find who did this, they can determine if it's real or bs.

That then begs the question, “What kind of injury/evidence is typical of prison violence but atypical of violence in the outside world?”

Good question Corky, and I'm sorry that I don't have a definite answer. My recollections on the segment match yours in that I remember the detective saying this about the prison system yet not wanting to disclose too much information - probably to weed out false confessions or other erroneous information that may come with publicizing the case in such a manner.

But consider this: inmates have limited access to even the simplest of tools that could be used as weapons. So, they often have to make-do with what they can get their hands on.

My Dad used to work in a psychiatric unit at a hospital in West Palm. I remember him telling me once that one of the patients got their hands on a spoon from the cafeteria and that was a BIG fiasco. Now apply that to a prison situation. I'm sure cons know ways of killing and/or torturing with the simplest of tools that you or I couldn't even imagine.

I was thinking that he meant that the assailant raped Jay, but then I broke out my copy of Murderers Among Us and all it said was that Jay was strangled. As far as it being the way that they were bound, the killer used those zip-ties on them, so I doubt it could be that. Maybe the way that Jay was strangled, tortured, and/or beaten suggested that the killer did time, but I don't know how you could tell that.

The killer wrote letters to the familys of these 2 victims,and i remember seeing the photos of the letters on UM,and they were creepy looking.Does anyone know where i can view the letters,or see pics of the handwriting??

The killer wrote letters to the familys of these 2 victims,and i remember seeing the photos of the letters on UM,and they were creepy looking.Does anyone know where i can view the letters,or see pics of the handwriting??

This is all I got for now:

http://www.unsolved.com/ajaxfiles/mur_jay_cook_tanya_van_cuylenborg.htm

Here is a 2010 article on this cold case.

http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20100104/NEWS01/701049903/0/COMM03


FBI aids probe of unsolved 1987 killings

Published: Monday, January 4, 2010

Local detectives value face-to-face time with top murder investigators

By Diana Hefley
Herald Writer

FBI profilers and other murder investigation experts recently spent a day delving into the double slaying of a young Canadian couple that has left local homicide detectives stumped for more than two decades.

Tanya Van Cuylenborg, 18, and Jay Cook, 20, both of Victoria, B.C., came to Washington in 1987 to run an errand for Cook’s family.

They took a ferry to Port Angeles and were last seen buying a ticket for the Bremerton-Seattle ferry.

They didn’t make it back home.

Van Cuylenborg’s body was discovered Nov. 24, 1987, on a rural road in Skagit County. She had been raped and shot to death. A couple of days later, Cook was found under High Bridge, outside of Monroe. He had been beaten and strangled.

Cook’s van was found in a parking lot at a bar in downtown Bellingham. A ferry ticket was discovered inside. Nearby, investigators found Van Cuylenborg’s driver’s license, ammunition, surgical gloves and plastic ties.

Detectives have never made an arrest in the case.

Recently, Skagit County sheriff’s detectives, along with Snohomish County cold-case detectives, presented the unsolved case to a group of FBI behavioral analysts and other experts, including some from Canada and Germany.

The federal agents were available for consultations and training as part of workshop from the National Center for the Analysis of Violent Crime in November.

“We wanted the chance to put the case in front of folks who this is all they do and are familiar with upcoming technology,” Skagit County sheriff’s detective Tobin Meyer said.

The double killing spans several jurisdictions. Skagit County has taken the lead in the investigation.

Snohomish County sheriff’s detectives included the case in the state’s first deck of cold-case playing cards. The cards have been handed out in jails and prisons in hopes of soliciting new leads.

Meyer began digging into the 1987 case about seven months ago. Investigators had gone to the FBI for help on the case in the past, he said. “Not to this extent though, with everyone in the same room at the same time,” Meyer said.

Detectives were hoping to learn more about emerging technology that could possibly help them track down the killer.

Investigators for the first time now are acknowledging that genetic evidence, believed to belong to the killer, was discovered where Van Cuylenborg was found.

The DNA does not match any in the state and federal databases, Meyer said.

State lawmakers in 1990 ordered genetic samples to be collected from people convicted of violent and sexual crimes. In 2002 the law was expanded to include everyone convicted of any felony. More crimes were added in 2008, including misdemeanor harassment and stalking.

“We intend to pursue the DNA,” Meyer said.

Investigators also wanted to explore whether they may be able to track the killer through letters that were mailed to the victims’ families shortly after the slayings. It’s unclear who sent the messages.

“There are fresh ideas we’re pursuing,” Meyer said. “We intend to get this guy. Some day we’ll find a match with this. No case is forgotten.”

Police investigators routinely ask the FBI for advice about unsolved homicides.

Snohomish County sheriff’s detectives consulted the FBI shortly after the 2006 slayings of Mary Cooper and her daughter Susanna Stodden. The Seattle women were killed along the Pinnacle Lake Trail east of Granite Falls.

Generally, the consultations are done over the phone, Snohomish County sheriff’s detective Jim Scharf said.

“It’s pretty rare to have face-to-face time with behavioral experts,” he said. “It seemed to be so much better input in the one-on-one setting. We gained a lot better understanding of the information.”

Snohomish County sheriff’s cold-case detectives also attended some special training sessions to help them with their more than 60 unsolved homicides and missing-persons cases.

Scharf attended a training session on interview techniques when grilling people suspected of committing murder. Scharf declined to identify any other cases that were discussed at the conference.

The sheriff’s office is expected to begin closer inspection of dozens of cold-case investigations beginning this year.

The office received a federal grant to pay for two more detectives for its cold-case squad. The $394,000 grant also will fund more training, professional consulting and some evidence testing at private labs.

The FBI training was useful for the sheriff’s office’s renewed efforts to solve 62 cases and provide families with answers and justice, Scharf said.

“We came up with new things that can be done to help these cases along at this point,” Scharf said. “Any time you get a group of investigators together, you’re bound to come up with new ideas, and a new direction to follow.”

Its good to know that they are still pursuing a solution and suspect in this case. It was plenty sick and evil enough to do something like this, but to torture the families with greeting cards like that takes a special kind of evil. Assuming the same person did it of course, which is a pretty good bet IMO. This scum needs to be taken off the street if he still alive or not in jail.

However, the DNA not matching anyone in their database seems to somewhat debunk the theory that the killer has been in prison before. And probably eliminates some of the suspect serial killers who have surfaced over the years.

Could he be a former or current prison guard perhaps?

Still a slovable case IMO if they still have evidence.

they'll probably never be solved

Hmm, well some interesting info here. Yes, reading that the DNA found inside Tanya and the DNA on the envelopes from the creepy letters does not match is interesting. That tells me that the letters were hoaxes, but I would still be interested to find out who wrote them just to make sure. The info in the cards did not seem to be specific as to anything to do with the murders, they were just very creepy and deranged.

The one guy that was a suspect in this case, is serial killer Charles Sinclair. Sinclair lived in Washington State at the time of the murders and was a suspect in several other killings. Sinclair a lot of people have not heard of as he died in jail in 1990 while awaiting trial for a 1989 murder of a college freshman who died while out on a run. That occurred in the same county, the same area Sinclair lived in. She disappeared while jogging and was found strangled and raped. Sinclair had used linens to strangle her. It also turns out that she had been a high school classmate of Sinclair's son. Sinclair was/is a suspect in 6 other murders in western Washington State, including Jay and Tanya.

Sinclair was a New Mexico native and a Vietnam War vet who with his wife and two teenage children moved to Washington State in 1985. They moved to Deming, Washington a small town of about 200 people in Whatcom County, Washington. Deming is 20 miles east of Bellingham and Whatcom is between British Columbia to the North and Skagit County (where Tanya's body was found) to the south.

Sinclair was an odd serial killer. In that he appeared to not just kill for the sport but that was part of it. Rather he killed because he needed something whether it be money, a ride, whatever. He would take possessions from his victims and place them in his shed.

Sinclair was also the prime suspect in the disappearances and presumed deaths of a retired couple Robert and Dagmar Linton ages 64 and 62. The Linton's were from Stockton, California but were traveling with their truck and camper behind it on their way to attend Expo '86 in Vancouver. On the way they stopped at a campground in Brinnon, Washington and unhitched their truck from their camper to take a day trip around the area to explore it. They were never seen again. Brinnon is a town of around 800 people in Jefferson County, Washington. Brinnon is a town that Jay and Tanya would have driven through on their route to get to the car ferry in Bremerton. Brinnon is about 30 miles north of the town of Hoodsport where Jay and Tanya were seen.

When investigators looked into the elderly couple's disappearance, they were called to the campground by the owner who said the camper had been sitting there for several days but he had not seen the truck or the people who owned it. When the cops went in, it had been a week since the couple had been seen and they got a bad feeling because everything in the camper was set up as if they were just taking a day trip and would be coming back that night. When cops checked on the couples credit cards to see if they had been used, they found one of the couple's credit cards had been used to rent a movie and pay for a tank of gas at a gas station in Marblemount, Washington. Marblemount is a town of about 250 people in Skagit County, Washington, it is in a very rural part of the county and is about 55 miles southeast of Deming where Sinclair lived and is about 125 miles and a ferry ride east of Brinnon where the elderly couple disappeared. For three weeks more the credit card continued to be used in towns up and down I-5 in Washington State and even in Oregon.

In addition to the elderly couple, Sinclair is also thought to have killed Jay and Tanya as I mentioned and a coin shop dealer in Everett (in Snohomish County) in 1980 as at that time Sinclair lived in New Mexico but was in Washington at the time of the murder. According to news reports, Tanya's body was dumped in a ditch near the city of Burlington in Skagit County. Burlington is about 30 miles south of Deming where Sinclair lived. Jay was dumped near the city of Monroe in Snohomish County which is 50 miles south of Burlington and 80 miles south of Deming. That tells me that Jay was probably killed first as Monroe is about 30 miles or so from downtown Seattle.

Some other interesting connections. The elderly couple, their truck was later found abandoned in the long term parking lot at the Seattle-Tacoma International Airport. Jay's van was found abandoned in the parking lot of a bar in downtown Bellingham. After Sinclair's death, when his possessions were went through. Everything that had been charged to the elderly couple's credit card was found in his shed. While Jay and Tanya's things were not among the possessions, Sinclair also had the habit of keeping a matchbook from every town he went to. Towns with connections to both the elderly couple and Jay and Tanya were among the matchbooks.

Now one also has to remember at that time, tracking credit cards were much slower than it is now. Thus, the cops were always behind Sinclair, he was always one step ahead of them as typically they were about three days behind him every time he used the card. They were finally about to close in on him when someone yet unknown but probably a member of the police department ran his mouth to the media about the investigation and the missing elderly couple and the mysterious person using their credit card. The story was plastered all over the newspapers and television and obviously Sinclair got wind of it as he abruptly stopped using the card and the trail went cold. That tipping of the hand by police allowed Sinclair to remain free for four more years and kill several more people.

Sinclair was arrested in Alaska on August 13th, 1990. He had gone on the run after the murder of the college student in November of 1989. The student as I said had disappeared while jogging on thanksgiving eve 1989. She was home in Deming on break from her first semester of college. Her body was found in the Nooksack River on November 27th, 1989, that river flows near Deming. She had been raped and strangled. Sinclair died of a heart attack in jail at the age of 44 on October 30th, 1990.

they'll probably never be solved

If there is DNA evidence remaining, there is always a chance.

Something I've learned recently is the way guys in prison will "take the fight" out of an opponent. If they get control, or just the upper hand, and are on top of someone while wrestling, there are various ways they pounce on the stomach in order to take the wind out and usurp the energy of who they're attacking.

It could be a series of bruises on Jay as well as the possibility it could be actualy physical evidence.

Something I've learned recently is the way guys in prison will "take the fight" out of an opponent. If they get control, or just the upper hand, and are on top of someone while wrestling, there are various ways they pounce on the stomach in order to take the wind out and usurp the energy of who they're attacking.

It could be a series of bruises on Jay as well as the possibility it could be actualy physical evidence.

Very interesting. For the life of me I never had any sort of idea what the whole "suspect-has-probably-been-in-prison" speculation could be about besides maybe the manner in which the bindings were created (which, honestly, still doesn't automatically suggest the work of a prisoner in and of itself). Wondering about what it could possibly be has always kind of freaked me out.

Very interesting. For the life of me I never had any sort of idea what the whole "suspect-has-probably-been-in-prison" speculation could be about besides maybe the manner in which the bindings were created (which, honestly, still doesn't automatically suggest the work of a prisoner in and of itself). Wondering about what it could possibly be has always kind of freaked me out.
were they able to determine anything with those greeting cards the victims families were getting? Are they still receiving them or has it stopped?

Read this thread: http://www.sitcomsonline.com/boards/showthread.php?t=277789

There are links to a lot more information about the case as well as the resolution regarding the letters. The long and short of it is, the man who was writing the letters to the victims' families was mentally ill and had nothing to do with the murders.

Very interesting. For the life of me I never had any sort of idea what the whole "suspect-has-probably-been-in-prison" speculation could be about besides maybe the manner in which the bindings were created (which, honestly, still doesn't automatically suggest the work of a prisoner in and of itself). Wondering about what it could possibly be has always kind of freaked me out.

Reading the other thread on this double-murder I suspect it's the fact that Jay's mouth had been crammed until he suffocates that lead the police to believe the killer(s) were from the prison system.

It's a suicide method found from time to time, in which inmates would stuff their mouths full with paper until they choke, but it could also be used both to silence and punish inmates who babble too much or are a general nuisance. As the inmate needs to be maintained it has to be done by sitting on or blocking the victim's belly, which can provoke bruises.

What I wonder, however, is was Jay killed while Tanya was being raped, or was he tied off and brought to Bellingham, tortured on the way there and finally dumped there?

In one of the articles I read, the authorities surmise that Jay was killed first while Tanya was tied up and then raped and killed at a different location. I thought that Charles Sinclair might have been responsible for these horrendous acts, but did anyone else see an article somewhere that stated DNA evidence proved he wasn't the perpetrator in this case?

Does anyone else see some possible similarities between this case and the Mike Riemer/Diana Robertson case? While the majority of the board thinks Riemer is the murderer of Diana and Ruth Cooper and Stephen Harkins (couple murdered in a similar way as Diana), there are still some things about this case that could suggest the same serial killer. In every case, it appears like the woman in the couple is the target, there is some type of strangulation involved, and there's an apparent attempt to conceal the vehicles. And Tonya was found first, and Jay became a suspect until he and his vehicle were found at a later date and a different location. Not to mention the fact that all of these killings took placed in Washington. I know Jay and Tanya were killed in a different manner, but these killings took place years after the Robertson/Cooper/Harkins homicides. Perhaps the killer changed his method of killing people.

Reading the other thread on this double-murder I suspect it's the fact that Jay's mouth had been crammed until he suffocates that lead the police to believe the killer(s) were from the prison system.

It's a suicide method found from time to time, in which inmates would stuff their mouths full with paper until they choke, but it could also be used both to silence and punish inmates who babble too much or are a general nuisance. As the inmate needs to be maintained it has to be done by sitting on or blocking the victim's belly, which can provoke bruises.


Thanks, Drakken. That's interesting (definitely morbid, but interesting nonetheless); I'd never heard of that before.


Does anyone else see some possible similarities between this case and the Mike Riemer/Diana Robertson case? While the majority of the board thinks Riemer is the murderer of Diana and Ruth Cooper and Stephen Harkins (couple murdered in a similar way as Diana), there are still some things about this case that could suggest the same serial killer. In every case, it appears like the woman in the couple is the target, there is some type of strangulation involved, and there's an apparent attempt to conceal the vehicles. And Tonya was found first, and Jay became a suspect until he and his vehicle were found at a later date and a different location. Not to mention the fact that all of these killings took placed in Washington. I know Jay and Tanya were killed in a different manner, but these killings took place years after the Robertson/Cooper/Harkins homicides. Perhaps the killer changed his method of killing people.

I've thought about that many, many times before. There are interesting similarities, especially the females being seperated from the males in all cases. (Correct? I was under the impression Cooper was found about a mile away from Harkins.) I do concede that if it's the work of a serial killer, he might have changed his MO as the Cook/Cuylenborg murders were committed later in 1987. But I've never been totally convinced the Cooper/Harkins homicides are related to Diana Robertson's death and Mike Riemer's disappearance in the first place. I think Mike and Diana were murdered by someone they knew. I'd be interested to know if there are similar "couple" murders dating back to the same period in southern British Columbia. Jay and Tanya did supposedly meet their killer on the ferry to Washington state, after all.

I've thought about that many, many times before. There are interesting similarities, especially the females being seperated from the males in all cases. (Correct? I was under the impression Cooper was found about a mile away from Harkins.) I do concede that if it's the work of a serial killer, he might have changed his MO as the Cook/Cuylenborg murders were committed later in 1987. But I've never been totally convinced the Cooper/Harkins homicides are related to Diana Robertson's death and Mike Riemer's disappearance in the first place. I think Mike and Diana were murdered by someone they knew. I'd be interested to know if there are similar "couple" murders dating back to the same period in southern British Columbia. Jay and Tanya did supposedly meet their killer on the ferry to Washington state, after all.

Yes Harkins was found a mile away from Ruth Cooper. And obviously even though Riemer has never been found, if he's dead his remains were in a different location than where Diana's body was found, since there was an extensive search of the area. Just the way the investigator in the Robertson homicide said the hairs on the back of his neck stood up when he saw the sock used in the Ruth Cooper homicide tell me that this was the work of the same psychopath.

I just thought it was interesting that in each murder, a victim is found near their respective vehicles...Jay was found with his van, Diana was found by Riemer's truck, and Harkins was found in the bed of his truck. And as you pointed out, the females were all separated from their male companions.

EDIT: Actually Jay was not found by his van, but he was found in an area close by.

i just watched this episode and was immediately intrigued (maybe because i know that part of washington state). someone provided a link, supposedly, to the individual responsible for writing the letters to the family, but the link seems dead. does anyone have additional information on that?

as many have expressed, i'm also curious what led investigators to conclude the murderer was most likely a former inmate. would really love to see this case closed.

I did read an article awhile back, they did find the letter writer, but I have no idea how to find it again but I will try.

Turns out the letter writer was not the killer, just some whack job in Canada who apparently had to much time on his hands. I think the article said he tried to contact Jay and Tanya's families and apologize but was never able to reach them. He did express remorse apparently, I'm not sure if any charges have been filed against him.

Its to bad it turned out not to be the killer, but after DNA proved not to be the same as that found on the bodies its not particularly surprising. This must have been added to later broadcasts of this case, because I'm fairly certain DNA technology was not sophisticated enough when this story originally aired in a Robert Stack version to determine this. It was around 1990 or so when in originally came on.

I thought Farina might say something about the letter writer being found but he didn't do that update, which was a little surprising because he has added footnotes from time to time what has been going on with cases in recent years, the Kevin Poulson update about him turning his life around was one example.

Even so, I continue to be of the firm opinion if they are going to run the Unsolved Mysteries show, they need to reactivate the 1-800 number, show new stories, and only rerun the ones that haven't been solved, as well as keeping them updated. I'm sure others agree with me.

someone provided a link, supposedly, to the individual responsible for writing the letters to the family, but the link seems dead. does anyone have additional information on that?

If you have the url of the dead link, you may be able to copy and paste it into the Way Back Machine, which can sometimes bring up parts or whole copies of info on old websites.

http://www.archive.org/web/web.php

thanks tracylynns. will try that

they recently repeated this episode. sadly, there are still no updates

"Jay and Tanya did supposedly meet their killer on the ferry to Washington state, after all."


There was a news piece that aired within the past couple years or so (a local news segment to the area of the murders) (it's online) where they brought the murders up and the reporter stated that it was believed that the killer (or killers) might have actually confronted Jay and Tanya while they were in the van on a downtown street in Seattle, waiting there overnight (can't remember what they were waiting to get).

So, it seems kind of fuzzy on when the murderer actually first met or confronted them.

Also, it seems kind of vague on what exactly Jay and Tanya's plans were for the trip: were they going to get something/do an errand for Jay or Tanya's father (I believe), was it supposed to be a romantic one-night camping trip, or was it somehow supposed to be both mixed together?

I know UM pushed the theory that the killer was given a ride by the couple, but it's entirely possible that he coerced them to let him in the van (Seeing as he had a gun). This is one very cold-blooded killer. He had a gun, and chose to strangle and beat Jay, a much slower and tortuous MO . It seems the completely opposite of the couples in the woods murders, in which the women were killed more violently and at least one of the men was shot. Also, were Diana and Ruth sexually assaulted? That really seems like Tanya and Jay's killer's motive. I really don't think there's enough evidence to indicate it's the same perp.

I know UM pushed the theory that the killer was given a ride by the couple, but it's entirely possible that he coerced them to let him in the van (Seeing as he had a gun). This is one very cold-blooded killer. He had a gun, and chose to strangle and beat Jay, a much slower and tortuous MO . It seems the completely opposite of the couples in the woods murders, in which the women were killed more violently and at least one of the men was shot. Also, were Diana and Ruth sexually assaulted? That really seems like Tanya and Jay's killer's motive. I really don't think there's enough evidence to indicate it's the same perp.

Beating , torturing, strangling and raping is a more sexually satifying way of killing , if you are a sexual sadist or serial killer. Its also more quieter and can be done inside a van without arousing suspicion especially if the killer killed them in an urban area were gunshots would have attracted attention and lead to someone dialling 911.

Strangulation and beating is also more up-close and personal for the killer (hence more gratifying) compared to say pointing a gun from a distance and discharging a bullet into your victim .......

I would agree this killer is/was one cold blooded individual and having served time in prison must have added to this. I suspect this killer raped women and/or girls and then served time then learnt his lesson and decided "next time there wont be any survivors" . ..