I was just watching some later episodes and then some really early episodes featuring Clayton and it's truly amazing how he went from confident and cocky in the beginning to insecure and troubled in the later episodes.

Do you think Benson's rise to where Clayton aspired to while Clayton remained in what he thought was a "lower" position was the cause? I do think Clayton probably hid his insecurities better in the earlier episodes but could hide them no longer as the series progressed. I think it even got to the point where the other people at the mansion sort of felt sorry for him.

I’ve been watching Season 6 shows. Tonight I watched "Jung at Heart” and as he was having his breakdown, I recall thinking about how he'd been years before. I don't remember the ep, but the time when Clayton asked Benson to use his influence on the Governor to suggest him as candidate for Lt. Gov. Obviously, he was very ambitious, and to see how Benson of all people ended up getting a position he coveted must have been so bitter.

And then later he loses what he thought was a sure-shot deal when his father chooses Benson over him as C.E.O. of the family business. Talk about a major blow!

I can see the others feeling sorry for him -- but not necessarily Benson so much. A complex mix of ability, ambition, connections, and plain good fortune all aided to have Benson rise high: from a young man angry that he didn’t get promoted because he was black to Lt. Governor (and possibly Governor depending on who won the final election). Having passed through all that, I sort of think he wouldn’t feel as sympathetic as others might.

Generally to me, Clayton became a more sympathetic character as time went on, and Benson less so.

+++

And on another related topic:
Benson and Clayton continually told each other their shortcomings throughout their acquaintance. Did they ever heed the truth in their words? B/c I think there was some truth in those gibes.

You're right, in the beginning it was fun to watch Clayton being torn down all the time but as the series progressed and I got to know the character better, I really did start to fill sorry for him.
Yes on the surface Clayton was pompous but on the inside he was a very insecure and tormented man. After all he obviously hadn't been very successful as an attorney and for whatever reason he wasn't a partner in the family business. For all we know the Governor's aide job may have been a postion of last resort.
I agree that watching Benson rise from obscurity to the postion of Lt. Governor must have been major blow to what was left of his self-esteem. Benson and Kraus never missed an opportunity to torment him and Katie was down right merciless.
No wonder he started to breakdown in the end. :stressed:

Yes on the surface Clayton was pompous but on the inside he was a very insecure and tormented man.

This is the feeling I got, especially as the show progressed. I think he used his uppity & snobby attitude as a way to mask his insecurities.

And I think as time went on and the staff started learning things about him (especially his upbringing and lack of validation from his father) they began to see why he was the way he was and it seemed like they sort of cut him a little slack because of it.

I can see the others feeling sorry for him -- but not necessarily Benson so much. A complex mix of ability, ambition, connections, and plain good fortune all aided to have Benson rise high: from a young man angry that he didn’t get promoted because he was black to Lt. Governor (and possibly Governor depending on who won the final election). Having passed through all that, I sort of think he wouldn’t feel as sympathetic as others might.

That's interesting because I did at times sense some compassion towards Clayton from Benson. I think about the episode when Clayton wanted to become Budget Director and Benson tried to convince the committee to grant the nomination. Benson told the Senator who made a disparaging remark, "I resent that. While Clayton Endicott may be a lot of things, his patriotism is beyond question." He really went to bat for him there when he could have said the hell with it and walked away.

Or how about when Benson helped Clayton get his job back after Clayton resigned to work with his father....it was Benson who urged Clayton to talk to the Governor and Clayton was really upset and on the verge of tears. Again Benson could have dismissed Clayton but instead chose to help him.

Finally, the episode of the helicopter crash. Benson seemed compassionate as he ran to Clayton who was in shambles trying to get help. To be honest with you, I thought Benson actually showed more compassion towards Clayton than the Governor did a majority of the time.

I do agree that Benson became more self-righteous as the show went on. I think maybe as he went further up the ladder, his ego grew a bit. And maybe that wasn't entirely his fault. As you mention, he did struggle in the beginning with discrimination, so maybe now he felt vindicated in a sense and it was hard to conceal his pride.

After reading, replying and really thinking about it. I've come to the conclusion that maybe my favorite TV series might have been guilty of setting a bad example for society.

What I'm talking about is how the writers basically turned Clayton into a scapegoat. Someone that could be bullied and taunted by others for their own pleasure. Come to think of it, many sitcoms have used scapegoat creators for laughs over the years.

Does all of this have anything to do with the increased bullying and teasing in our schools over the years.

Any thoughts? :rolleyes:

After reading, replying and really thinking about it. I've come to the conclusion that maybe my favorite TV series might have been guilty of setting a bad example for society.

What I'm talking about is how the writers basically turned Clayton into a scapegoat. Someone that could be bullied and taunted by others for their own pleasure. Come to think of it, many sitcoms have used scapegoat creators for laughs over the years.

Does all of this have anything to do with the increased bullying and teasing in our schools over the years.

Any thoughts? :rolleyes:

I'm not sure I'd agree with that, blink....mainly because Clayton made such a bad impression when he first got to the mansion that he kind of made himself a target. Just like with Kraus, Benson found it amusing that he could annoy her so much and I think the same thing happened with Clayton.

One thing I would say in Clayton's defense, however, is that the Governor did show obvious favoritism towards Benson on more than one occasion. Obnoxious as Clayton could be, he should have been treated more professionally at times. Maybe if he was, a lot of the insecurity and childishness we saw from him in the later seasons would have been avoided.

is that the episode where Clayton think's he is is Benson

Finally, the episode of the helicopter crash. Benson seemed compassionate as he ran to Clayton who was in shambles trying to get help. To be honest with you, I thought Benson actually showed more compassion towards Clayton than the Governor did a majority of the time.

I do agree that Benson became more self-righteous as the show went on. I think maybe as he went further up the ladder, his ego grew a bit. And maybe that wasn't entirely his fault. As you mention, he did struggle in the beginning with discrimination, so maybe now he felt vindicated in a sense and it was hard to conceal his pride.

Well as we now know from Bob Fraser's account on the whole matter I'm certain that his loss bid for Governor would've caused him to scale back a bit and be a Lobbyist.

As for Clayton I somehow knew he was never all that he claimed to be in later years. When he cracked he decided to just to let all his defenses down and he didn't care what anyone thought of his actions.

What I'm talking about is how the writers basically turned Clayton into a scapegoat. Someone that could be bullied and taunted by others for their own pleasure. Come to think of it, many sitcoms have used scapegoat creators for laughs over the years.

Does all of this have anything to do with the increased bullying and teasing in our schools over the years.

Any thoughts? :rolleyes:

No. Scapegoats have always been part of our society. It was definitely prevailent in Movies and Radio back in The 40's. So one didn't have anything to do with the other.

is that the episode where Clayton think's he is is Benson

Yes!

Lisa, you still have to check out Season 4 of the Bob Newhart Show because Rene A. plays an arrogant French psychologist in one episode. It is entitled "Shrinks Across the Sea". Rene plays off Bob Newhart very well.

Also, who could forget Rene as Louis the singing chef in The Little Mermaid?? :rofl: I love it!!!!

Lisa, you still have to check out Season 4 of the Bob Newhart Show because Rene A. plays an arrogant French psychologist in one episode. It is entitled "Shrinks Across the Sea". Rene plays off Bob Newhart very well.

Also, who could forget Rene as Louis the singing chef in The Little Mermaid?? :rofl: I love it!!!!

I have to check those out. They sound hilarious! :lol:

Also have to see the "Jeffersons" episode he is in. I guess he plays an inspector (also arrogant, I think). He must just look the part or something. :lol:

I have to check those out. They sound hilarious! :lol:

Also have to see the "Jeffersons" episode he is in. I guess he plays an inspector (also arrogant, I think). He must just look the part or something. :lol:
You've NEVER seen the Little Mermaid, Lisa? :eek2: You have to hear Rene sing!!!

that was a very funny episode when Clayton throught he was Benson

You've NEVER seen the Little Mermaid, Lisa? :eek2: You have to hear Rene sing!!!

Honestly, I don't think I have or if I did, it was so long ago I don't even remember anymore.

I'm guessing he's a pretty good singer? :confused:

Honestly, I don't think I have or if I did, it was so long ago I don't even remember anymore.

I'm guessing he's a pretty good singer? :confused:

He's pretty good - he even does that "French laugh" - haw haw haw!!! :rofl:

He's pretty good - he even does that "French laugh" - haw haw haw!!! :rofl:

I'm gonna have to check that out!

(Add it to the list) :D :p

I'm gonna have to check that out!

(Add it to the list) :D :p
Good girl, Lisa!!!! ;) :D :rofl: