I was curious if anyone had some more specific info on this case:

" Missing Persons: Pat Farmer who lived in Hobbs, New Mexico, reportedly kidnapped her 4 year old grandson, Jared while she was babysitting him for his mother Ladonna Morrow. Apparently Farmer was not pleased that her daughter was getting a divorce and concocted a bizarre scheme that included exposing Jared to satanism and allegations of sexual abuse. "

The only update I could find was from a poster in this forum stating Jared had been re-united with his mother. Does anyone know how much time passed before they were re-united? Also was Pat Farmer ever charged or prosecuted. I can't seem to find any info. I emailed several sources in Hobbs N.M. but they don't seem to have any information oddly enough.

I remember seeing the update but I honestly can't remember what became of Pat. I think it was a few years but in the update Jared still looked like a little kid.

Pat should rot for what she did to LaDonna. Making up stuff that she was abusing him or a Satan worshiper is beyond evil and beyond bizarre. How could you go so far to frame your own daughter like that? That woman is seriously messed up. I hope she did do time.

Yes, I would also be interested in wondering what happened to Pat Farmer. In the UM update, they only focused on Jared being reunited with his mother and father and didn't say what happened to the Satanic Grandma. She definitely deserved some hard prison time for what she did, that's for sure. I bet she got a slap on the wrist though. That old manipulative sad sack is probably dead by now.

Wasn't this story made into a Lifetime movie? Dang, I can't think of the name.
Good movie, though.

Wasn't this story made into a Lifetime movie? Dang, I can't think of the name.
Good movie, though.

"A Kidnapping In The Family". It starred Tracy Gold and says on IMDb it was fact based.

"A Kidnapping In The Family". It starred Tracy Gold and says on IMDb it was fact based.


Yessss!! I should have known the master herself would know. ;)

Note that a user comment has dismissed the MOW because "it is hard to believe it was based on truth, and even more difficult to develop empathy for Tracey Gold's character, and the Kate Jackson character, as evil Mom accusing her daughter of satanic rituals is way too over the top to be believable."

Ah, the irony.

I want to know what was running through Pat Farmer's head as she came up with a scheme like this.

I want to know what was running through Pat Farmer's head as she came up with a scheme like this.

I got the impression while watching this segment that Pat Farmer was a controlling sort who felt it was her way or no way. LaDonna rebelling and doing her thing went against her sensibilities and ticked her off. Getting Jared was her way of raising a child "right" and to get back at her daughter. That's my opinion at least.

I got the impression while watching this segment that Pat Farmer was a controlling sort who felt it was her way or no way. LaDonna rebelling and doing her thing went against her sensibilities and ticked her off. Getting Jared was her way of raising a child "right" and to get back at her daughter. That's my opinion at least.

Eerily like the Baskin Case, and unfortunately many custody cases. :(

I saw an update that Jared was reunited with his mother within a few weeks. Unlike the poor Baskins, who are still waiting for a resolution.

The movie "A Kidnapping in the Family" was a composite based on actual cases. Well, that's what it said.

I am very pleased that the judge in this case acted more wisely than Judge Corlew did in the Baskin case. He had the brains to put the child in custody of the court while the charges were being investigated. Something which I believe Judge Corlew should have done.

I read in the newspaper years ago about another nutty grandmother who abducted her grandchild. In consideration of her great age, (around 80, I think) the judge sentenced her to sew a quilt for charity in lieu of a prison sentence.

I don't think Pat Farmer would have been that lucky. Strange we can find no information on Pat's fate. Did she serve a prison sentence, or did fate intervene and she, say, died before she could be brought to trial?

I got the impression while watching this segment that Pat Farmer was a controlling sort who felt it was her way or no way. LaDonna rebelling and doing her thing went against her sensibilities and ticked her off. Getting Jared was her way of raising a child "right" and to get back at her daughter. That's my opinion at least.

That's not all. Pat Farmer was outraged at her daughter's divorce (why I don't know) and that was where the trouble started. LaDonna said her relationship with her mother was always "stormy" (I sure would like to know more about what she means by "stormy"). Pat's opposition to the divorce marked the point of no return.

Okay, I got it! This is what happened to Pat Farmer! I found it over at www.akidnappinginthefamilymovie.blogspot.com , and here it is, copied and pasted for your perusal here!


5-YEAR-OLD REUNITED WITH MOM FOR THE FIRST TIME IN 19 MONTHS
By Karen Owen, staff writer
Published: Sunday, Aug. 23, 1992 12:00 a.m. MDT

Five-year-old Jared Lee Peters spoke to his mother for the first time in 19 months early Saturday morning. He told her he had looked for her everywhere he went and he knew his grandmother had taken him away.

Jared's grandmother, Patricia Farmer, 60, was arrested Saturday in Salt Lake City by FBI agents and Salt Lake County deputy sheriffs. A viewer had recognized Jared on the television show "Unsolved Mysteries" and notified authorities.The boy was taken from New Mexico in December 1990, said Lt. Les Dudley of the Lea County Sheriff's Department in New Mexico. The reunion with his mother, Ladonna Morrow of Lovington, N.M., occurred Saturday after officers arrested Farmer, who is Morrow's mother.

Dudley told the Deseret News that Farmer failed to return Jared from a court-appointed visit 19 months ago because she believed her daughter was abusing the boy and was involved in satanic worship.

Before the child was taken, New Mexico authorities conducted an investigation that included meetings with the boy and home visits. They found nothing to make them think the child was abused, Dudley said.

"However, until the day she dies, Patricia will think she did the right thing," he added. Since that time the story has been broadcast on "Unsolved Mysteries" twice and on "The Maury Povich Show."

The first time "Unsolved Mysteries" aired it, Farmer must have seen the promo the night before, Dudley said. People in Louisiana recognized Farmer and her grandson the night the show ran in its entirety, but by then Farmer had picked up and moved. New Mexico authorities believe she has lived in Mississippi, Texas, Utah and maybe two other states since that time, Dudley said.

A few months after Jared was reported missing, Farmer met up with another daughter, who was 16 and listed as a runaway, and the girl's boyfriend. They all lived together in some of the locations, Dudley said. But in the Salt Lake area the two youths lived with Jared in Kearns and the grandmother lived on the other side of the valley, Dudley said.

Farmer's younger daughter refused to give details about the incident. She said she and her mother have been living in Salt Lake City since December 1991. "My mother is not a crazy lady - she had good reasons for what she did. I just don't want to say anything that could end up hurting her."

The boy was in good condition Saturday when FBI agents and deputy sheriffs arrested Farmer.
Dudley said New Mexico officials are waiting to see if Farmer fights extradition before they take further action. She is being held in the Salt Lake County Jail for investigation of custodial interference and kidnapping charges.


Update

Patricia Joan Farmer was released from Federal Prison on 05-03-1991.

On the Lifetime Movie site for this movie Joan's other daughter says the following:

"this is amanda the real daughter that was with my mother and nephew. My sister played by tracy gold, real name ladonna is a liar, the movie was a lie, if you want the real story give me a call at 505-391-6824 but it will cost you!! i was the one who helped my mother take my nephew.!! also my e-mail address is derrickamandax1@netzero.com"
Posted by Traciy Curry-Reyes at 10:12 AM 0 comments


If anyone wishes to follow Amanda up on her offer, please let us know what she says, if anything. That's assuming the offer is genuine and not a hoax.

Thanks for posting that! Wow, I had no idea LaDonna's daughter helped her abduct Jared. Maybe she should have gotten some jail time too.

It sounds like it was Pat Farmer's daughter--LaDonna's sister--that helped with the abduction. There's really no doubt in my mind that LaDonna and Jared were the victims here. As soon as I hear accusations of ritual child sex abuse complete with satanic rituals and child sacrifice, I am 99% sure that it is a bunch of hooey. The number of innocent people who went to prison based on those fabrications--and the number of children who were practically brainwashed into believing it happened to them--is staggering.

Thanks for posting that! Wow, I had no idea LaDonna's daughter helped her abduct Jared. Maybe she should have gotten some jail time too.

She probably did. It doesn't sound like the grandmother was in prison for long. Could be typical modern jurisdiction or early release due to prison overcrowding. Or maybe the grandmother had developed some medical condition so she was released early.

Let's just hope that neither the grandmother nor the aunt tried to snatch the child again. He and his mother probably changed their names and relocated somewhere.

I have made contact with someone who loved in Pat Farmer's hometown of Lovington. They were only a child themselves at the time of the case, but they tell me that "I remember at the time of this incident everyone was making a big deal about this grandma kidnapping her [grand]son... my parents would scare me by actually driving by her house."

Sounds like Pat Farmer has become an ogress in her hometown! Everyone in Lovington remembers her as a monster and her name a byword for evil (as it should).

But then, does everyone in Lovington regard Pat as a monster? In the parallel Baskin case (big news right now because the grandfather is caught) there are people in Murfreesboro and elsewhere who think the grandparents were right to kidnap the grandchildren, that they wouldn't have acted without reason, and just because the courts cleared the parents of child abuse does not mean they were not child abusers. So I wonder if there are some people in Lovington who believe Pat Farmer did the right thing in kidnapping her grandson, that there must have been some truth in the allegations against LaDonna or the grandmother would not have acted as she did. Certainly the younger daughter believes the grandmother did the right thing and possibly other relatives do as well. And although LaDonna is cleared, is there still a taint of suspicion hanging around her, are some people still whispering about her?

Wonder where Pat Farmer is now? She is probably dead or in a nursing home somewhere. LaDonna must be still estranged from her sister, who believed the charges against her and even abetted the mother in the kidnapping, despite the fact that Jared wasn't happy about the business and was glad to return to his mother. Jared would be grown by now but I wonder what his relationship with his auntie is?

I don't think anyone should take this person, Ladonna's sister, up on her "offer". I defintely would not trust a person, even if it is the real deal, when he or she says: "It will cost you!" That does not sound like someone who has an honest story to tell, if that person really believes "A Kidnapping in the Family" is a lie.

I just wish I knew what was added to the movie for "melodramatic purposes". Somehow I doubt the character of Jack was a real person. I never saw the Unsolved Mysteries episode for this case.

By the way, while it is true that courts clear allegations on child abuse that may have happened, it is also true that people, whether they are relatives or neighbors, also abuse the system and claim child abuse when there is none. There have been plenty of cases like that. Grandma may have done this because she did not like here daughter for whatever crazy reasons she had. Just because it is a grandparent does not mean he or she is telling the truth. Innocent parents end up having these allegations on their records for the rest of their lives, even if they are groundless. It is a terrible thing to have to go through if one is innocent.

I don't think anyone should take this person, Ladonna's sister, up on her "offer". I defintely would not trust a person, even if it is the real deal, when he or she says: "It will cost you!" That does not sound like someone who has an honest story to tell, if that person really believes "A Kidnapping in the Family" is a lie.


Yes, definitely do not this person up on the offer! Besides, I have been having another look at it and there are several comments that question the authenticity of the person claiming to be Ladonna's sister and the telephone number itself. The authenticity of the comment about Pat Farmer's release from jail is also in question because of conflicting dates. This means we have no reliable information about what happened to her.

Looks like Ladonna has gotten in a little trouble. Sources say she is now Ladonna Chew and was arrested recently:

http://thepittsburggazette.com/two-more-arrests-made-in-undercover-operation-p10500-1.htm

Whoops. Yeah, that is definitely her. Luckily Jared is grown up at this point.
Wonder where she went wrong?

There was chat online that Jared (apparently spelled Jerad) is now grown and seems to say that Ladonna was the one who caused the problems. See this other link:http://akidnappinginthefamilymovie.blogspot.com/2009/01/5-year-old-reunited-with-mom-for-first.html

Who was saying he was shown satanic shows/movies? Was it just LaDonna telling everyone (and the police) this?

She has been busted for drugs, this at least is a known fact...and one of the threads (that seemed to know a lot of correct info, like La Donna's new last name) says Jared told him that his mother beat him.

So maybe UM had the completely wrong end of the stick with this one, and the grandma really did have a good reason for putting the snatch on him.

I grew up in Lovington and knew LaDonna very well. Amanda is telling the truth. LaDonna is wild, lazy, arrested for drugs. She got her children taken from her 4 neglect and when Jared did come home she neglected him to the point of losing custody to Jareds father. she didn't take care of Jared like a mother should and people who know her know that. Her husband at the time would be in the other room and LaDonna would yell at him to come change Jareds diaper when she was sitting right beside him or even holding him. He is a excellent father. What Pat did she did out of love for Jared, she loves him and wanted him raised right, but LaDonna was too wild and had other plans, being a mother came second or even third in her life. And I have people that will tell you the same thing. So please get all the facts before you judge Pat or Amanda they are good people and only want whats best for Jared, and her other children from her 2nd marriage, that didn't last either, got to be a reason to have 2 failed marriages, atleast the third one is still intact, but i don't how, he must not care! Pat was upset with the 1st divorce because he was the best thing that ever happened to LaDonna, he is a great guy. And I can guarantee you LaDonna was never a victim, however, Jared was. So in my eyes Pat was trying to do the best thing for Jared by taking him away from his mother atleast he was loved and cared for as long as he was not with Ladonna. Any questions let me now.

Oh GOD. I'm having flashbacks to the Baskin thread that was hijacked by the Maples.

The Baskin and Wacker threads certainly come to mind as areas to avoid if you value unbiased logic.

Hey as long as we don't hear personal accounts about having Taco Bell lunches with LaDonna, we're okay, right? :lol:

I grew up in Lovington and knew LaDonna very well. Amanda is telling the truth. LaDonna is wild, lazy, arrested for drugs. She got her children taken from her 4 neglect and when Jared did come home she neglected him to the point of losing custody to Jareds father. she didn't take care of Jared like a mother should and people who know her know that. Her husband at the time would be in the other room and LaDonna would yell at him to come change Jareds diaper when she was sitting right beside him or even holding him. He is a excellent father. What Pat did she did out of love for Jared, she loves him and wanted him raised right, but LaDonna was too wild and had other plans, being a mother came second or even third in her life. And I have people that will tell you the same thing. So please get all the facts before you judge Pat or Amanda they are good people and only want whats best for Jared, and her other children from her 2nd marriage, that didn't last either, got to be a reason to have 2 failed marriages, atleast the third one is still intact, but i don't how, he must not care! Pat was upset with the 1st divorce because he was the best thing that ever happened to LaDonna, he is a great guy. And I can guarantee you LaDonna was never a victim, however, Jared was. So in my eyes Pat was trying to do the best thing for Jared by taking him away from his mother atleast he was loved and cared for as long as he was not with Ladonna. Any questions let me now.

Thanks for posting about your knowledge of the people involved. I am curious what you know or think about the satanic worship angle of this story. According to UM Pat would show Jared satanic videos so he would have some knowledge of it and then falsely said that Ladonna was involved in that to help her case. Although I'm not sure what I think about the grandma's motive in this case I am starting to think UM went out of their way to make Ladonna appear a saint when some accounts on here are starting to make me think otherwise. Being arrested on a drug charge doesn't help either.

Am I the only one who doesn't find these recent revelations surprising?

Abduction scenarios involving non-custodial parents, grandparents or other caregivers are seldom cut and dry, even if UM presents them that way.

Obviously, the abductors have reasons (whether rational or not is debatable) for doing what they do in these situations. While it's easy to judge and assume that the UM presentation is on target, who really knows?

These cases involve family dynamics that we will never be privy to. For that reason, I have a hard time casting judgment on what some of these grandparents did. From a legal standpoint, what they did is wrong. Beyond that, who knows?

It sounds like it was Pat Farmer's daughter--LaDonna's sister--that helped with the abduction. There's really no doubt in my mind that LaDonna and Jared were the victims here. As soon as I hear accusations of ritual child sex abuse complete with satanic rituals and child sacrifice, I am 99% sure that it is a bunch of hooey. The number of innocent people who went to prison based on those fabrications--and the number of children who were practically brainwashed into believing it happened to them--is staggering.

When someone cries "Satanic abuse!" I know they're making up the accusations. It's a moral panic just like the witch trials. You would think people learn from history but sometimes not.

Here's what I'll say. Lets assume Ladonna is a bad mother, did drugs, and was neglectful. That still doesn't excuse Pat for what she did. If anything, her behavior makes me less shocked that Ladonna is screwed up.

If all that stuff about Ladonna was true, then why didn't Pat bring that stuff up? Why did she go the extra mile to accuse her of molestation & devil worship? Drug use & Neglect should be enough and puts her 100% in the right, again, assuming what is being said about Ladonna in this thread is true. But by doing what she did, it only makes her out to be the bad one and puts the law on Ladonna's side.

Lets just say they're both nutty buddies and hope that the kid turned out OK in spite of it all.

Here's what I'll say. Lets assume Ladonna is a bad mother, did drugs, and was neglectful. That still doesn't excuse Pat for what she did. If anything, her behavior makes me less shocked that Ladonna is screwed up.

If all that stuff about Ladonna was true, then why didn't Pat bring that stuff up? Why did she go the extra mile to accuse her of molestation & devil worship? Drug use & Neglect should be enough and puts her 100% in the right, again, assuming what is being said about Ladonna in this thread is true. But by doing what she did, it only makes her out to be the bad one and puts the law on Ladonna's side.

Lets just say they're both nutty buddies and hope that the kid turned out OK in spite of it all.

Exactly. The ends just didn't justify the means. Why trump up more accusations and subject a child to that nonsense? IMHO, they are both as bad as each other.

I got the impression while watching this segment that Pat Farmer was a controlling sort who felt it was her way or no way. LaDonna rebelling and doing her thing went against her sensibilities and ticked her off. Getting Jared was her way of raising a child "right" and to get back at her daughter. That's my opinion at least.

Some parents are pathological narcissists...LaDonna said in the episode that she and her mother were friends as long as she went along with her mother's ideas. When she left her marriage, her mother didn't approve of her choice and decided to punish her. I wonder what happened to Pat Farmer. If I were her daughter, I would have made her life very uncomfortable...if the police wouldn't do anything, I would have sued her in civil court for damages, taking everything she had down to the chewing cum wrappers in her purse - even if I lost I would have dragged her through it for my day in court.

This case and the other evil grandmother/grandparents case (forgot the name at the moment) that UM covered make me sick. And in both cases, all the grandparents have to say is "Satanic Cult" and it works like dollar bills. Are those cults really that common and does no one think to look at the accuser as the satanic one?

If I recall, there was an era there for a bit where it seemed that blaming things on cults or satanism was all the rage. Not that it didn't happen, but it did seem to be an all-too-easy fall back for people who wanted to make accusations or even for the police trying to label a crime.

If I recall, there was an era there for a bit where it seemed that blaming things on cults or satanism was all the rage. Not that it didn't happen, but it did seem to be an all-too-easy fall back for people who wanted to make accusations or even for the police trying to label a crime.


I think you are absolutely right. I remember reading a book that I bought at the supermarket when my family was shopping called, "Michele Remembers", it must be out of print now but this was during the 80's. It was a woman who in her therapy sessions recalled her family being involved in a Satanic cult. It would be interesting to find out if anything in the book was corroborated, but some of the things she described were just so out of control, hard to forget to this day. I think there were people on Phil Donahue and the other talk shows who were talking about it more, and there are quite a few UM episodes where the speculation was that it may have been a satanic cult. it seems to be a short hand for evil, and scares everyone to death.

I think maybe there is less of it now then there was then. It's one thing for a child to say they have been molested, but these grandmothers who coach their grandkids into talking about Satan and pentagrams, it seems so ludicrous that the judge wouldn't investigate further or throw the whole thing out. I mean, come on, how many Satanists can their be? But maybe in some parts of the country it is more prevalent. I had a huge fight with my mother when I was in high school during the 80's because some friends asked me to play Dungeons and Dragons and I think the Satanic Cult fear made her freak out and beg me not to.

I'm kind of amazed that there are apologists for the grandmother. I totally understand that UM left a lot of information out of the segment, and that in Pat Farmer's mind she was doing the "right thing", but that still does not make what she did excuseable. The most glaring point is that by all accounts, Jared's father was a good father and a stand up guy. So if LaDonna really was an unfit mother, why not help the father get custody? And when the father called BS on Pat Farmer's story, she started to accuse him of satanism! I have no sympathy for her, because the whole "satanic" angle she made up should speak volumes about her mindset and her character.

I think you are absolutely right. I remember reading a book that I bought at the supermarket when my family was shopping called, "Michele Remembers", it must be out of print now but this was during the 80's. It was a woman who in her therapy sessions recalled her family being involved in a Satanic cult. It would be interesting to find out if anything in the book was corroborated, but some of the things she described were just so out of control, hard to forget to this day.

I seem to remember a series of debunkings throughout the '90s concerning a lot of things that were claimed in that book.

There's also a pretty definitive article by a Wiccan police officer who has written multiple books for law enforcement about Wicca and other forms of paganism. After studying the book and doing his own research, he pretty well puffed the card house down:

http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=cabc&c=whs&id=4349


I seem to think Michelle Smith's psychiatrist eventually married her as well.

When I googled the names I came up with interesting info...FB being the most interesting.

When I googled the names I came up with interesting info...FB being the most interesting.

Care to share what info you found?

Care to share what info you found?

Curiosity got the best of me, so I looked Ladonna up on FB myself. There are photos of both Pat and Ladonna's sister Amanda, as well as Jerad, and they're all recent. Looks like they're all pretty happy, but there's no telling anything from a picture--nor is it anyone's business, I suppose.

I pretty much agree with what justin posted above. We'll never be privy to the intricacies and details, and that's fine.

I do personally believe there's a bit of truth on both sides, though. Pat may have kidnapped her own grandson, but Ladonna's made some mistakes, too. I have a much easier time reconciling that in my mind than Pat simply being a domineering lunatic and Ladonna being completely beyond reproach.

Curiosity got the best of me, so I looked Ladonna up on FB myself. There are photos of both Pat and Ladonna's sister Amanda, as well as Jerad, and they're all recent. Looks like they're all pretty happy, but there's no telling anything from a picture--nor is it anyone's business, I suppose.

I pretty much agree with what justin posted above. We'll never be privy to the intricacies and details, and that's fine.

I do personally believe there's a bit of truth on both sides, though. Pat may have kidnapped her own grandson, but Ladonna's made some mistakes, too. I have a much easier time reconciling that in my mind than Pat simply being a domineering lunatic and Ladonna being completely beyond reproach.

Jerad and both her other son's have fb's as well..

Curiosity got the best of me, so I looked Ladonna up on FB myself. There are photos of both Pat and Ladonna's sister Amanda, as well as Jerad, and they're all recent. Looks like they're all pretty happy, but there's no telling anything from a picture--nor is it anyone's business, I suppose.

Nice to know that everyone seems to be happy and fine these days. I try to look these people up on FB and I always come up with nothing.

Nice to know that everyone seems to be happy and fine these days. I try to look these people up on FB and I always come up with nothing.

I hope that this is OK... http://www.facebook.com/ladonna.chew

In the UM segment, Pat Farmer makes Jared watch videos about satanism.

Anyone know what the video is that Jared is watching?

Am pretty sure the voice on the video is Bill Schnoebelen.

Just recently watched this case, and did some research concerning Patricia Farmer's fate. In doing this, I read somewhere that Jared/Jarad eventually ended up back with her Grandmother after all, and that he didn't care for his Mother and wanted nothing to do with her (or something to this effect)

Is there any truth to this?

Someone above said the boy is seen currently on Ladonna's Facebook so it could be true.

In the UM segment, Pat Farmer makes Jared watch videos about satanism.

Anyone know what the video is that Jared is watching?

Am pretty sure the voice on the video is Bill Schnoebelen.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

In the UM segment, Pat Farmer makes Jared watch videos about satanism.

Anyone know what the video is that Jared is watching?

Jesus, I hope not.

What's the story with Bill Schnobelman?

Is Pat Farmer still alive?

http://www.examiner.com/article/a-kidnapping-the-family-based-on-pat-farmer-unsolved-mysteries-story Interesting link

As of 2018, he's friends on FB with his stepdad, but not his momma. She posts family pics of all of them together, but never just the two of them. Also, a little internet sleuthing turned up that Pat Farmer remarried and her husband has since passed away, as has LaDonna's dad and her oldest sister.

I always thought it was obvious that the mother was an absent junkie, who prioritized partying/hanging out and the grandmother took Jared away from her because she was inattentive. I mean he even went back to her, so it's obvious that was the reason.

Or maybe she did it for Satan. 666.

Y'all seriously looked up there Facebook accounts?

Y'all seriously looked up there Facebook accounts?

Public info.. No different than searching through newspapers of the past.

though, it should cause people to think about what they put on Facebook and who they allow to access that info.

I have found a large number of my family on Facebook. Just started talking to someone who is a 4th cousin whose branch of the tree was lost after his Great grandfather moved to Arkansas, and later his grandfather moved to Texas.

Well, it was lost to the rest of the family.. I mean, they knew where they were, obviously.. But he had no ideas regarding his family tree back prior to his Grandfather.. Got a good laugh after I showed him the family castle in Scotland (It's a pile of rocks)