DTF955
09-15-2007, 08:52 AM
Pediatricians don't just check physical health – they also talk to the kid, the parents, etc., and determine how a youngster is progressing. That in mind, I advise you to see my story http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2553312/1/Whos_In_Charge_Here for more detail, but in short, here’s what would likely happen, as further indication of how D.J. logicallly would have had to discipline Michelle:
At age 2 or so there might not be a huge problem yet, but by 2 and 3 months, D.J.’s checkup, there would start to be. The “Terrible Twos” are when children become independent, they learn it’s possible to say “no,” and they experiment, some a little, some a lot, with it, till they learn to balance the fact they have their own will with the fact they need to listen to Mommy/Daddy/whoever is caring for them. (Simple but fairly concise explanation.)
The doctor tells you this – just like a parent I know was told that her main job as the parent of a one-year-old would be “keeping him alive” the next year, because at that age, he would be into all sorts of stuff and have almost no self control. It would start to get better as he approached 2 & timeout was more effective, but he would still need sat in the corner or whatever punishment for only 1 thing at a time, till he got used to the rule.
Dr. Landress would have told Danny at her 2YO checkup that now was the time to start enforcing limits. Danny could always say, “Well, the guys and D.J., and even Steph (remember, he expected them to stop Michelle that one time) are helping with that.” Danny’d describe how they taught her to freeze, and he’d probably be satisfied. However, D.J. would be sure to bring it up at *her* checkup in February, if Danny wasn’t punishing Michelle yet *and* it had gotten too bad; and Doc would say, if you won't, Mr. Tanner, she'll have to. Michelle was either a super kid who would have needed maybe half a dozen timeouts in her life or she had to be corrected quite often by someone else because she needed it but was never corrected by the adults. I think I know which side most viewers are on. :-) Chances are, D.J. would have started before then.
Why not call it punishment? Doctors sometimes use the “2 I’s,” Isolate and ignore. Isolate is timeout – it can be considered punishment if longer than 1 minute per age, but it is very logical for Danny to insist it not be called that, & D.J. just swiftly removed Michelle from a scene and sat her in the corner if she was naughty. Her “first punishment,” then, was when it went from 3 up to 5 minutes in the corner. That’s a 67% jump, but logical, as timeout is "one minute per age," but parents had been sitting kids int he corner as punishment long before the concept of timeout. (For instance, the comic strip Dennis the Menace began in 1950, the first mention of the one-minute-perh-age concept of timeout was 1957. Our family used an isolated place as punishment for decades before that.)
Back to the doctor’s office, what I show at age 3 is what would happen; the doctor asks questions to see how her verbal skills are, she blurts something and it leads to a talk about how she views the world. She *has* to know an action is wrong because someone has taught her it’s wrong. Remember the T-Twos? She would *never* learn to obey unless someone made her obey, and taught her something bad (timeout, no dessert, etc.) happened when she didn’t. She would just keep doing what she wanted, and that doesn’t happen every episode.
So, the doctor would say she says what some kids say (“Mommy says it’s bad”/”Mommy’d put me in timeout”/etc.) with “D.J.” in place of “Mommy.”
Some say “Stephanie” would go there in place of "D.J.", I understand. I think Steph’s mind is too simple yet to devise a complex system, though for a few things (teaching her to freeze, etc.) she could probably do okay, like pretending with a doll. By the time Michelle's 4, then she's 9 and able to come up with plans like the Boy Who Cried Wolf or tricking Michelle to show her how bad it is to trick someone.
The doctor would notice a problem pattern by age three if Danny hadn't disciplined yet, and from here, would make note of it and see how she’s progressed each time at her next visits, and also ask Danny and D.J. (knowing she’s the authority) at other times. By season 4, he’d be concerned Danny waited till just a month earlier, but by age 5 would be saying, “Just keep being consistent, especially these next few years.” He might give some advice for when D.J. goes to Spain, too, as to how to keep Michelle being good. But, it would be okay if Danny doesn't avoid punishing over the next year or two. However, he would avoid it.
By age 7, we have a problem in logic. Michelle is, as stated, *much* better than a child was was never disciplined anyway, but now, we also have even better behavior than would be seen in a child not disciplined till almost 4 and disciplined very little at 5.5-6.5. I don’t think some can grasp what a child like that would be like. Everything would be a struggle. They would refuse *any* direction. There is *no*way* they would be able to simply accept an order. I know, you say “if we can’t imagine this, the writers couldn’t,” but that’s why I’ve always said, I think the writers knew, to a limited extent. They weren’t doing a variety show with skits, they were deliberately showing a child growing up.
What happened at Michelle’s 7YO checkup? I highly suspect the doctor had to be saying, “Look, Mr. Tanner, D.J. made her behave. Joey was too much a kid, Jesse didn’t want to be his own dad, neither of them ever disciplined anyone that young, you couldn’t stand to; the ultimate authority in her life is D.J.. You are still, to her, like a loving uncle would be to a normal kid; one who always has her best interests at heart. But, the reason she listens to you is D.J. has taught her she must.”
He would then tell Danny to start teaching her to make good choices. I think that’s what he did. Just like the clues (which are several) that she was obeying like a well adjusted little girl before her first punishment ever came from Danny, Danny suddenly lets her make a few decisions that are really odd. Keeping a mule in the home? Picking out the gift at Big Syd’s? The only logical reason is that he has to be letting her, on doctor’s orders, learn the consequences of her actions when she can learn that she doesn’t always make good choices.
Why didn’t the doctor order Danny to start disciplining? He would have; unless he knew someone else was already doing it. Indeed, there's something interesting in "Crimes and Michelle's Misdemeanor." Why does Danny say that Michelle's at an age when children push limits? If she never had any limits, there would be no limits to push.
Possibly becasue he'd been warned by the pediatrician that this was an age when she would test even D.J.; and that if he didn't start before, it was *vital* he start to enforce limits then, or risk losing any chance to become the main authority figure in her life.
At age 2 or so there might not be a huge problem yet, but by 2 and 3 months, D.J.’s checkup, there would start to be. The “Terrible Twos” are when children become independent, they learn it’s possible to say “no,” and they experiment, some a little, some a lot, with it, till they learn to balance the fact they have their own will with the fact they need to listen to Mommy/Daddy/whoever is caring for them. (Simple but fairly concise explanation.)
The doctor tells you this – just like a parent I know was told that her main job as the parent of a one-year-old would be “keeping him alive” the next year, because at that age, he would be into all sorts of stuff and have almost no self control. It would start to get better as he approached 2 & timeout was more effective, but he would still need sat in the corner or whatever punishment for only 1 thing at a time, till he got used to the rule.
Dr. Landress would have told Danny at her 2YO checkup that now was the time to start enforcing limits. Danny could always say, “Well, the guys and D.J., and even Steph (remember, he expected them to stop Michelle that one time) are helping with that.” Danny’d describe how they taught her to freeze, and he’d probably be satisfied. However, D.J. would be sure to bring it up at *her* checkup in February, if Danny wasn’t punishing Michelle yet *and* it had gotten too bad; and Doc would say, if you won't, Mr. Tanner, she'll have to. Michelle was either a super kid who would have needed maybe half a dozen timeouts in her life or she had to be corrected quite often by someone else because she needed it but was never corrected by the adults. I think I know which side most viewers are on. :-) Chances are, D.J. would have started before then.
Why not call it punishment? Doctors sometimes use the “2 I’s,” Isolate and ignore. Isolate is timeout – it can be considered punishment if longer than 1 minute per age, but it is very logical for Danny to insist it not be called that, & D.J. just swiftly removed Michelle from a scene and sat her in the corner if she was naughty. Her “first punishment,” then, was when it went from 3 up to 5 minutes in the corner. That’s a 67% jump, but logical, as timeout is "one minute per age," but parents had been sitting kids int he corner as punishment long before the concept of timeout. (For instance, the comic strip Dennis the Menace began in 1950, the first mention of the one-minute-perh-age concept of timeout was 1957. Our family used an isolated place as punishment for decades before that.)
Back to the doctor’s office, what I show at age 3 is what would happen; the doctor asks questions to see how her verbal skills are, she blurts something and it leads to a talk about how she views the world. She *has* to know an action is wrong because someone has taught her it’s wrong. Remember the T-Twos? She would *never* learn to obey unless someone made her obey, and taught her something bad (timeout, no dessert, etc.) happened when she didn’t. She would just keep doing what she wanted, and that doesn’t happen every episode.
So, the doctor would say she says what some kids say (“Mommy says it’s bad”/”Mommy’d put me in timeout”/etc.) with “D.J.” in place of “Mommy.”
Some say “Stephanie” would go there in place of "D.J.", I understand. I think Steph’s mind is too simple yet to devise a complex system, though for a few things (teaching her to freeze, etc.) she could probably do okay, like pretending with a doll. By the time Michelle's 4, then she's 9 and able to come up with plans like the Boy Who Cried Wolf or tricking Michelle to show her how bad it is to trick someone.
The doctor would notice a problem pattern by age three if Danny hadn't disciplined yet, and from here, would make note of it and see how she’s progressed each time at her next visits, and also ask Danny and D.J. (knowing she’s the authority) at other times. By season 4, he’d be concerned Danny waited till just a month earlier, but by age 5 would be saying, “Just keep being consistent, especially these next few years.” He might give some advice for when D.J. goes to Spain, too, as to how to keep Michelle being good. But, it would be okay if Danny doesn't avoid punishing over the next year or two. However, he would avoid it.
By age 7, we have a problem in logic. Michelle is, as stated, *much* better than a child was was never disciplined anyway, but now, we also have even better behavior than would be seen in a child not disciplined till almost 4 and disciplined very little at 5.5-6.5. I don’t think some can grasp what a child like that would be like. Everything would be a struggle. They would refuse *any* direction. There is *no*way* they would be able to simply accept an order. I know, you say “if we can’t imagine this, the writers couldn’t,” but that’s why I’ve always said, I think the writers knew, to a limited extent. They weren’t doing a variety show with skits, they were deliberately showing a child growing up.
What happened at Michelle’s 7YO checkup? I highly suspect the doctor had to be saying, “Look, Mr. Tanner, D.J. made her behave. Joey was too much a kid, Jesse didn’t want to be his own dad, neither of them ever disciplined anyone that young, you couldn’t stand to; the ultimate authority in her life is D.J.. You are still, to her, like a loving uncle would be to a normal kid; one who always has her best interests at heart. But, the reason she listens to you is D.J. has taught her she must.”
He would then tell Danny to start teaching her to make good choices. I think that’s what he did. Just like the clues (which are several) that she was obeying like a well adjusted little girl before her first punishment ever came from Danny, Danny suddenly lets her make a few decisions that are really odd. Keeping a mule in the home? Picking out the gift at Big Syd’s? The only logical reason is that he has to be letting her, on doctor’s orders, learn the consequences of her actions when she can learn that she doesn’t always make good choices.
Why didn’t the doctor order Danny to start disciplining? He would have; unless he knew someone else was already doing it. Indeed, there's something interesting in "Crimes and Michelle's Misdemeanor." Why does Danny say that Michelle's at an age when children push limits? If she never had any limits, there would be no limits to push.
Possibly becasue he'd been warned by the pediatrician that this was an age when she would test even D.J.; and that if he didn't start before, it was *vital* he start to enforce limits then, or risk losing any chance to become the main authority figure in her life.