Does anyone know if there has been any new evidence or anything about the theory that the Zodiac killer and Unabomber were the same? I found that case very interesting. Just wanted to see if anyones heard anything...

Steve

I can't vouch for the quality of the site (maybe some of our resident Zodiac experts can), but Zodiackiller.com refers it's viewers to this site for Zodiac/Unibomber comparisons:
http://www.unazod.com/

I'm pretty sure Kaczynski has been thoroughly ruled out as a suspect, but that doesn't mean the comparisons aren't interesting.

I think Douglas Oswell has a new book on his theory of Unabomber as Zodiac. He was interviewed on the UM segment. Recently on the Zodiackiller.com message board he posted that his theory was in its infancy at that point and UM did not do a good job on the segment.

Well, it's a crappy theory so you have the problem of making chicken salad out of chicken ****. Hardly UM's fault.

I've mentioned before that Kaczynski always properly used "who" in reference to a person, while Zodiac butchered it with "that." Even in his phone call to police, Zodiac said, "I'm the one that did it." Gad. I can barely type that sentence, using that. Grotesque. Admittedly it's one of my pet peeves.

In a moment of high anxiety your natural tendency will flow to the surface. In Zodiac's case it was using the word "that" on the phone. I absolutely guarantee Kaczynski would have said, "I'm the one who did it." Zodiac also uses "that" often in his confirmed letters.

Meanwhile, these are examples from Unabomber's manifesto. I looked at this years ago when the Unabomber-as-Zodiac theory surfaced. I knew I had made a list. It was on an old Jaz drive that I no longer use but I dug it up recently. I looked at the manifesto, for the specific points Kacyzynski had to use either who or that. He gets it right every time. I started from the beginning and waited until I had about two dozen in the sample, then was satisfied and quit.

* "those of us who live in "advanced" countries"
* "the measures that those who hate the industrial system"
* "But not everyone who is associated with one of these movements"
* "Those who are most sensitive about "politically incorrect"
* "many of whom do not even belong to any "oppressed" group"
* "among university professors, who have secure employment"
* "majority of whom are heterosexual, white males"
* "not the sort of person who has an inner sense"
* "typically the kind of person whose feelings of inferiority"
* "benefit to the people whom the leftists claim"
* "accurate description of everyone who might be considered"
* "case of a man who can have anything he wants"
* "Given a person who devotes much time and energy"
* "But for most people who pursue them"
* "people who are deeply involved in surrogate activities"
* "Many people who pursue surrogate activities"
* "people who want peace and quiet"
* "people who use the devices are frustrated"
* "except for people who have a particularly strong drive"
* "Even most people who are in business for themselves"
* "designed to EXCLUDE those who have creativity"
* "many of the people who most need autonomy."
* "not even know the people who make them"
* "intended as propaganda by the people who make it."
* "not the primitive man, who has used his body daily"
* "who fears the deterioration of age"
* "who has never had a practical use for his body"
* "satisfied during his life who is best prepared"
* "These are docile types who would have been happy"
* "We do sneer at people who ARE content with servitude."
* "For example, those who have an unusually strong drive"
* "These are the people who aren't interested in money"
* "People who have medium susceptibility to advertising"

Does anyone know if there has been any new evidence or anything about the theory that the Zodiac killer and Unabomber were the same? I found that case very interesting. Just wanted to see if anyones heard anything...

Steve

Ted Kaczynski has never OFFICIALLY been ruled out as the Zodiac. The items purportedly said to have ruled him out are: 1) Fingerprints. The fingerprints that they have in the Zodiac case are NOT confirmed fingerprints of Zodiac. Of the few prints that they have of any of the crime scenes, no two match. 2) MO - they say the style of killing is not the same; however, this clearly is no reason to rule someone out - especially in light of the fact that there are several years between the Zodiac and Unabomber events. In Douglas Oswell's new book (THE UNABOMBER AND THE ZODIAC), he does an outstanding job of addressing this issue. 3) It is said that Kaczynski was "domiciled" elsewhere when the Zodiac killings occurred. This, too, is a very loosely devised reason for "excluding" Ted Kaczynski.

I have just finished reading THE UNABOMBER AND THE ZODIAC, and it is an outstanding study on the comparisons of these two high profile killers. Not only was Kaczynski a professor at Berkley during known Zodiac events, he was a prolific writer, whose writing style bears unparalleled similarities to Kaczynski in handprinting, style, content, phraseology, use of allusion, etc., knowledge and use of code, and much, much more. The need that both of these known killers had to communicate to the media, police and victims, can not be understated. The desire to cause public panic by means of threats (only to retract them) if certain material was not "published" is unique.

In his new book, THE UNABOMBER AND THE ZODIAC, Douglas Oswell addresses these issues one-by-one in an oustanding culmination of his 11 years of continuous research on KNOWN materials of both killers. It's an outstanding read and one that should make anyone think twice as to whether or not Ted K could be the elusive Zodiac.

The Zodiac and Ted did not have completely different MO's. Many people forget that Zodiac sent in diagrams of bombs. He did not, admittedly, ever kill with a bomb as far as anyone knows, but the fact he sent in diagrams and made threats is interesting. The other connection I see between the two is that they were both more of terrorists than they were "serial killers." I say this because neither of them seemed to be "fetish killers" like Bundy, Gasey, Dahmer, Ridgeway, et al.

Linda said that the Unabomber has "never been officially ruled out," but I hear differently. I have read that the FBI investiagted this connection after Ted's arrest and ruled Ted K. out because he could be placed in other parts of the country during some of the Zodiac crimes. The Feds apparently have a strong alibi for him, which looks bad for the case of those wanting to connect the two.

Ted K. was one of the preminent mathematicians in America in his specific field. This causes some to say that it would take someone like him to create the cryptograms. The truth is it is MUCH easier to create a cryptogram than it is to solve one. It wouldn't take a math professor to do what Zodiac did. I know this to be a fact. Zodiac was intelligent, sure, but not a man with unrivaled intellect as many like to romanticize him to be.

Jack Levin (yes Jack Levin again) said that the "Zodiac murders were the most cerebral murders in American history." I disagree. Just because someone has not been caught doesn't make him/her a genius. Zodiac's own misspellings, improper grammar etc., leads me to believe he was no genius. Smart, yes, highly educated man of letters, no. Of course, one doesn't have to have good grammar to be brilliant, but most people who are brilliant do. It is also possible that Zodiac misspelled on purpose, but I find it unlikely because the man was such a meglomaniac. Interestingly, someone pointed out to me that Zodiac and Arthur Allen misspelled some of the SAME words in the same manner in their respective writings. They also had similar slang and unique forms of writing such slang.

One could take the position of Gareth Penn and say that all of Zodiac's letters contained intentional misspellings, not to throw the police off, but because the alphabetical characters themselves meant nothing and were just a latent mathematical code to be cracked. I find this far-fetched. One could probably find latent codes in this post if one looked hard enough. Ultimately it would mean nothing.

Linda said that the Unabomber has "never been officially ruled out," but I hear differently. I have read that the FBI investiagted this connection after Ted's arrest and ruled Ted K. out because he could be placed in other parts of the country during some of the Zodiac crimes. The Feds apparently have a strong alibi for him, which looks bad for the case of those wanting to connect the two.

None of the investigative teams has ANY alibi for Kaczynski stronger than the fact that is his "residence" was "elsewhere." They have NEVER been able to pinpoint his exact whereabouts at any of the key Zodiac events. Doug does an outstanding job of going beyond the surface to identify the areas in which the authorities "attempt" to rule TK out with the pathetically non-confirmed "fingerprints" of Zodiac, the issue of him being "elsewhere" and the classic MO differences.

Ted K. was one of the preminent mathematicians in America in his specific field. This causes some to say that it would take someone like him to create the cryptograms. The truth is it is MUCH easier to create a cryptogram than it is to solve one. It wouldn't take a math professor to do what Zodiac did. I know this to be a fact. Zodiac was intelligent, sure, but not a man with unrivaled intellect as many like to romanticize him to be.

You're right. It wouldn't take a math professor to write a code; HOWEVER, the fact that BOTH Zodiac and the Unabomber wrote (with the Unabomber writing extensively in code) is a remarkable parallel in and of itself. AND it just happens that TK wrote utilizing apparently complex codes, which we see as a trait of both Zodiac and Unabomber. It might be noted that the FBI said that they may never have cracked the Unabomber codes had a key to them had not been found in Ted's cabin.

Zodiac's own misspellings, improper grammar etc., leads me to believe he was no genius. Smart, yes, highly educated man of letters, no. Of course, one doesn't have to have good grammar to be brilliant, but most people who are brilliant do. It is also possible that Zodiac misspelled on purpose, but I find it unlikely because the man was such a meglomaniac. Interestingly, someone pointed out to me that Zodiac and Arthur Allen misspelled some of the SAME words in the same manner in their respective writings. They also had similar slang and unique forms of writing such slang.

One could take the position of Gareth Penn and say that all of Zodiac's letters contained intentional misspellings, not to throw the police off, but because the alphabetical characters themselves meant nothing and were just a latent mathematical code to be cracked. I find this far-fetched. One could probably find latent codes in this post if one looked hard enough. Ultimately it would mean nothing.

You need to analyze the Zodiac's correspondences thoroughly to realize that they are clearly misspellings. He tries to mask his writing by utilizing misspelling of common words, turning around and spellng those that are difficult (including hyphenating them) correctly. He utilizes punctuation correctly and his thoughts are clear and organized. His use of literary allusion is strong.

The writings of the Zodiac are numerous and are an extremely powerful tool to use in assisting to identify a suspect. In his book THE UNABOMBER AND THE ZODIAC, Douglas Oswell does an unbelievably thorough and highly educated job of breaking down KNOWN writings of both Zodiac and the Unabomber. Don't be fooled by a visual take of Zodiac's correspondences. There's more there than meets the eye.

Take a look at the following website for further information: http://unazod.com/

For those that are truly interested in trying to solve the Zodiac mystery, THE UNABOMBER AND THE ZODIAC must be read as it's an oustanding addition to assist in the analyzation of the crimes. The last chapter on probabilities is unique and sheds a final light on the comparisons of the two. The writer culminates his study by leaving it up to the reader to decide whether or not, after review of the comparisons, the Zodiac and the Unabomber could be one-in-the-same.
http://www.lulu.com/content/816188

Linda,

I do not deny the interesting similarities between the two. However, when one compares Arthur Allen's life, writings, interests etc., one can see even more paralells between him and Zodiac than one sees between Ted K. and Zodiac. Allen had the Zodiac watch, he told a family member he wanted to kill and call himself the Zodiac. He said he wanted to use a gun with a flashlight attached to it. He was familiar with "The Most Dangerous Game," a book Zodiac made reference to in his letters. When the police interviewed Allen he gave snide remarks and made many allusions to literature that the Zodiac mentioned in his letters (these letters were not public at the time). Police didn't figure out until after the interview how Allen had been toying with them and playing head games. Allen can definitely be placed in the area during all of the crimes. He lived next door to one of the presumed Zodiac victims and knew her personally. He was a convicted child molester and definitely had criminal tendencies. He is the only suspect out of the thousands to ever have a search warrant issued against him. Some of Allen's private writings used the phrase "Merry X-mass" just as Zodiac's. They both misspelled the word the same way.

Thye strongest evidence against Allen is the fact a family member told police the story about Allen claiming he wanted to kill people and call himself Zodiac. However, it is admitted that this guy did not like Allen and could have read Zodiac's MO in the newspaper. Nothing the cousin told police was unknown to the public. This is why I am not so sure Allen was guilty. My point is that circumstances are just that - circumstances. No one has ever presented any hard evidence (beyond heresay and similarities) against any suspect. My hunch is that the real Zodiac was probably never identified as a suspect, and if he was, is not on the major list of commonly known ones.

My point is that circumstances are just that - circumstances. No one has ever presented any hard evidence (beyond heresay and similarities) against any suspect. My hunch is that the real Zodiac was probably never identified as a suspect, and if he was, is not on the major list of commonly known ones.
ITA. Well said.

Arthur Leigh Allen was the closest suspect the authorities had to matching anything remotely Zodiac-like back in the 70’s. At that time, and even into the 90’s, when he begged people to believe he wasn’t the Zodiac, the police found absolutely no hard evidence to tie him to the crimes and made no attempt to charge him. He was weird and a pedophile; he was not a known killer nor was there ever any indication that he had an absolute desire or demanding need to communicate (in order be heard) through writings; nor was there ever any indication that he wrote in code. Yes, he had a Zodiac watch and yes, there was hearsay from people who said he wanted to call himself the Zodiac and kill people and said he “wanted” to use a gun with a flashlight attached to it. But, Ted absolutely communicated through writing, Ted did write in code (and thousands of pages of it), Ted did use a gun with a flashlight attached to it (in his diaries, he noted that is how he hunted rabbit/squirrel), Ted positively used literary allusion and Ted was familiar “The Most Dangerous Game.” And, Ted, in his own hand-writing through his diaries relating to a period in the 60's, said he had a desire to kill anyone he just didn't like. Ted also demanded publication of his written manifesto upon pain of further killings as did the Zodiac when he threatened the school bus full of children, only to retract his threat by telling the cops that if they thought he would take on a school bus like he said he was going to, they deserved to have holes in their heads. The known writings (and there are numerous) of both Zodiac and Kaczynski, bear such striking resemblance in tone, content, phraseology, punctuation, hand-printing and allusion that you must consider the fact that (at the very least) Ted could be the writer of the Zodiac communications.

If one believes that the DNA that was extracted from known Zodiac envelopes back in 2001 was truly that of the Zodiac, then Arthur Leigh Allen has been eliminated as a suspect. Unfortunately, Ted’s DNA was never compared (and if it was, it’s being kept as a guarded secret) for surely if it had been compared and found to not be a match, authorities would leap at the chance to say, “Sorry, the Unabomber is NOT the Zodiac.”

These are just a few similarities between the Unabomber and the Zodiac. There are many more. Ted should remain a powerful suspect in the unsolved Zodiac crimes until such time as there is hard evidence to convict a suspect either currently known or unknown, to date. DNA might just prove to be that hard evidence.

Ted K. looks nothing like the Zodiac sketches. The only similarity was that they were both white males. Ted K's face is too elongated and his hair was too dark. Ted may have worn similar glasses, but those glasses were common in the 60's.

There are more similarities between Allen and Zodiac I did not mention previously. The police, when they issued one of the search warrants against Allen, found a pair of shoes that were quite rare. These shoes matched perfectly the footprints left at one of the Zodiac scenes - same size and make exactly. The chances of Zodiac and Allen owning the same size of this rather rare shoe (in the same city) is unlikely. These shoes are the closest thing to physical evidence linking someone to the crimes that has ever been uncovered in the case.

I often wrestle between Zodiac being Allen and Zodiac being an unknown, unidentified person. I think one of the two scenarios is likely to be true. I think none of the popular suspects, besides Allen, are convincing (though all do have "weird" similarities here and there). The fact that all of these men have weird similarities to Zodiac shows you that weird similarities mean nothing (unless Zodiac was a composite character played by a gang of psychopaths).

I don't hold out hope that the man will ever be indentified short of a death bed confession. The DNA may or may not be the smoking gun. You have to remember that the DNA may not be able to be used for identification since the DNA from the letters would have to be compared to known suspects. I have a feeling all of these suspects would be ruled out (which would help matters), but I think that is all it will do - rule people out. To identify the real killer, his DNA fingerprint would need to be held in some database. I doubt this would be the case because if he had been arrested in his past, he would have been arrested before any such databanks became common practice. It is doubtful, even if he is still alive, that the Zodiac is still out committing crimes. I would wager this man has never seen the inside of a jail cell, at least not for any major crime. This makes the DNA match unlikely, unless Zodiac is one of the major 5 or 6 suspects, which I doubt.

Allen looks nothing like the Zodiac sketches either.

Basically, sketches are what they are - sketches - and oftentimes don't provide a perfect image of a suspect; HOWEVER, after having said that, the original sketch of Zodiac was changed at some point to correct the chin to a markedly "heavy and squared-off chin," extremely Ted K like.

As it relates to the shoes found from Allen, you are talking about military wingwalkers. If these shoes had matched EXACTLY, they probably would have been used to arrest him. They may have been similar in size; HOWEVER, Ted K, too, wears a size 10 or 10-1/2 (which I believe is the size of the prints found at one of the crime scenes. Interestingly, take a look at this pic of a pair of home-made shoes that Ted K built to "avoid" footprint detection. (smaller soles beneath http://cbs5.com/slideshows/local_slideshow_332010422/view?slide=5

If someone wanted to disguise their footprints, it would seem easier to wear a pair of shoes that were a couple of sizes too big... But can you believe someone going to this amount of trouble of making your shoe size appear too "small" to keep their footprints in question? (I'm definitely NOT saying that Zodiac did this, but I still find it interesting that someone may be that creative, in any case)...

The shoes found in Allen's home were the exact same size. 10 1/2 I believe.

Again, I am not trying to make the case for Allen being Zodiac. I am simply pointing out that several suspects including Allen, Ted K., Kane, Mr. X, and others all have "striking" similarities. Not all of them are Zodiac, and indeed, probably none of them are.

I will concede, however, that the one thing Ted does have going for him is that he is a known killer.

Have you ever read the psychiatric report that was done after Ted's arrest? I believe it can still be found online.

Allen looks nothing like the Zodiac sketches either.

And Kaczynski didn't look like the Unibomber sketch! :lol:

And Kaczynski didn't look like the Unibomber sketch! :lol:


wasn't that sketch done long ago? he was caught many years after the witness saw him and it did end up being the unabomber he saw?


anyways, while I don't think Kazynski was the Zodiac, I was just pointing out to whoever said TK doesn't look like the sketches, just saying that Allen doesn't look anything like the sketches either. The only composite sketch ever done of the Zodiac was in the Stine murders. The sketch is of a lean-faced guy with a square jaw and a crew cut. Allen was a bald fat azz.

I will concede, however, that the one thing Ted does have going for him is that he is a known killer.

Have you ever read the psychiatric report that was done after Ted's arrest? I believe it can still be found online.

I have read Sally Johnson's Psych report on Ted - more than once over the years. The report is quite interesting in and of itself and reveals some interesting insight into the mind of Ted Kaczynski. Douglas Oswell, in his new book, The Unabomber and the Zodiac, points out that within Dr. Johnson’s report, there’s an interesting revelation that is almost overlooked as it relates to TK’s feelings in the early 1970’s – well before the Unabomber struck.

From the Sally Johnson Report:
He wrote in his journal about him not fitting into organized society and not wanting to fit into it, and seeking avenues of escape from it. In his words in the early 1970s, he wrote "True I would not fit into the present society in any case but that is not an intolerable situation. What makes a situation intolerable is the fact that in all probability, the values that I detest, will soon be achieved through science, an utterly complete and permanent victory throughout the whole world, with a total extrication of everything I value. Through super human computers and mind control there simply will be no place for a rebellious person to hide and my kind of people will vanish forever from the earth. It's not merely the fact that I cannot fit into society that has induced me to rebel, as violently as I have, it is the fact that I can see society made possible by science inexorably imposing on me."

Near the end of his autobiography in 1979, Mr. Kaczynski describes his motives for writing, to include that he intended to start killing people and that when caught, he was concerned people would perceive him to be a "sickie." His writings were an effort to prevent the facts of his psychology from being misrepresented. He also describes some type of relief, sexual or otherwise, he obtains by writing. He describes his sources of hatred as his perceived social rejection and the "fact that organized society frustrates my very powerful urge for physical freedom and personal autonomy." He also describes experiencing anger from other sources and then turning his hatred towards organized society.

Note that although the Unabomber attacks didn’t begin until approximately 1978, Ted’s own words in the early 70’s indicate that he has already rebelled “violently.” In what manner had he rebelled this way? And, what were the “other sources” that made him turn his hatred towards organized society?

I have been intrigued by the study of Ted Kaczynski and especially the similarities shared between both he and the unknown Zodiac Killer. The study of each alone is fascinating; however, the parallels of the two combined are extraordinary.

wasn't that sketch done long ago? he was caught many years after the witness saw him and it did end up being the unabomber he saw?

The sketch was prepared after the Unabomber was seen by a witness to the bomb that exploded in 1987 and injured a computer store worker. The famous Unabomber sketch depicts a suspect with a striking, square jaw, parallel to the Zodiac sketch which sports the same, striking, square jaw. Ted was actually identified initially, though, through his writings; in particular, his Manifesto when he demanded it be published. His brother's wife, initially recognized similarities in the context and had her husband, David, read it. After realizing that there were several writing traits and similar views within the document that were definitely Ted-like, he went to someone who could compare known writings of his Ted to the Manifesto written by the Unabomber. When the results came back in the positive, he felt he had to notify authorities.

Zodiac's MO also fits into the psych report of Ted K. Someone who feels socially isolated like Ted would likely find young people at lovers lanes tempting targets. But then again, many serial killers posess a similar psychology.

It just appears to me that Zodiac's correspondence letters were a bit too banal to be from Ted. Ted, in his known Unabomber writings, seems a bit, shall we say, more mature. Ted also had a political/social agenda. The Zodiac seemed to have no agenda other than terrorizing the city and making fun of the "blue meannies." Again, the Zodiac seemed sort of like an overgrown child in his writings.

The "Deer Lodge, Montana" comment reported by one of the survivng victims is a point of contention. My memory is not perfect on this since it has been a while since I read about it, but either the witness has retracted the "Deer Lodge" statement or the police report detailing the "Deer Lodge" statement was in error. It seems like the police report may have erroneously named "Montana" as the state, but the witness remembers another state being mentioned. At any rate, this Montana connection is a strong point of debate.

It just appears to me that Zodiac's correspondence letters were a bit too banal to be from Ted. Ted, in his known Unabomber writings, seems a bit, shall we say, more mature. Ted also had a political/social agenda. The Zodiac seemed to have no agenda other than terrorizing the city and making fun of the "blue meannies." Again, the Zodiac seemed sort of like an overgrown child in his writings.

Ted's formal writings are definitely more "mature" in their presentation; however, many other documents written by Ted (letters, journals, etc.) display similar, sarcastic tone, and on occassion, immaturety in their nature. THE UNABOMBER AND THE ZODIAC does an outstanding job in addressing the writings of both Zodiac and Ted Kaczynski.


The "Deer Lodge, Montana" comment reported by one of the survivng victims is a point of contention. My memory is not perfect on this since it has been a while since I read about it, but either the witness has retracted the "Deer Lodge" statement or the police report detailing the "Deer Lodge" statement was in error. It seems like the police report may have erroneously named "Montana" as the state, but the witness remembers another state being mentioned. At any rate, this Montana connection is a strong point of debate.

The initial police report indicated that while they were waiting for the ambulance (9/27/69), Officer White tried to speak with the victims and Bryan Hartnell said that the suspect said he was an ex-co from Colorado. However, the next day in the hospital, Bryan elaborated by saying that the suspect told him he had escaped from ________ Lodge State Prison, Montana. He couldn't remember what Lodge, but the report states that it could possibly be "Deer Lodge," Montana. I think (but am not positive) that even at a later date, Bryan concurred that it was something Lodge, Montana, but I don't have date on this additional statement.

The sketch was prepared after the Unabomber was seen by a witness to the bomb that exploded in 1987 and injured a computer store worker. The famous Unabomber sketch depicts a suspect with a striking, square jaw, parallel to the Zodiac sketch which sports the same, striking, square jaw. Ted was actually identified initially, though, through his writings; in particular, his Manifesto when he demanded it be published. His brother's wife, initially recognized similarities in the context and had her husband, David, read it. After realizing that there were several writing traits and similar views within the document that were definitely Ted-like, he went to someone who could compare known writings of his Ted to the Manifesto written by the Unabomber. When the results came back in the positive, he felt he had to notify authorities.

striking square jaw??? there's nothign striking about a square jaw, anybody who's lean has a square jaw.

the unabomber can be placed away from the bay area at the time of some of the zodiac crimes.

striking square jaw??? there's nothign striking about a square jaw, anybody who's lean has a square jaw.

That is a prominent feature that was captured particularly from the original sketch drawn of the Zodiac; the re-do of the sketch most-prominently displayed a striking square jaw. By itself, a square jaw means nothing; combined with multiple other similarities (and I don't mean necessarily physical features), it adds one more parallel to narrowing down the field.

the unabomber can be placed away from the bay area at the time of some of the zodiac crimes.

The Unabomber can MOST DEFINITELY NOT BE PLACED away from the Bay area. He may have been SAID to have moved, but that's all... Kaczynski has most definitely NOT been pinned down to an exact location during ANY of the Z events or mailings of the Z's correspondences.