official thread for the hole in the ground gang. featured on UM 2/22/1989

discuss

:lol:

Update: I've finally got the book with the related chapter in my shopping cart at Amazon.

You'll have to let us know any more info it gives you in the book Awsi. Does anyone know if they were ever caught?

They were never caught. SiberianKiss has already read the book. I'm surprised he didn't provide info on what it said. Maybe he's too busy jousting on the USC football forum. They don't like some of my opinions over there, either. :lol:

It may be a while before I acquire the book. My shopping cart is $199.34. My current gift certificates settle at $85.88. Yesterday while leaning on one before paying a utility bill, I noticed the ripoff Coinstar machines provide Amazon gift certificates and at full value, without the 8.9% theft. I always have leftover change from the machines so today's brainstorm is to dump the daily allotment into a cup and then eventually turn it into the missing $114.

That strategy will probably last a few days until I realize how ridiculous it is.

Wow, never caught huh? Amazing. Although these guys seem smarter than average so I guess it shouldnt be surprising to me they havent been caught. I wonder if they started this up in any other parts of the country? It was a pretty intelligent way they went about the whole thing so that tells me they put a ton of studying and effort into it. They made millions of dollars so I guess they could live off it the rest of their lives if they wanted. How much did they make over the course of their robberies? 10 mil? I just remember it was millions of dollars. I would be very curious to see if these kinds of robberies happened in any other parts of the country or in Canada or Europe.

nm

by the end of this year, I think I will have found them, if I'm lucky. then i'm gonna write a book.

they didn't get that much $$$$$$, mainly because the feds were on to them in the middle of their second heist, they had JUST gotten into the vault when the bank manager was opening the vault door. So the tunnel boys had to run like hell for their freedom and leave behind all the loot. then the cops found the third tunnel, they did two at once, unreal. Unfortunately they didn't put much into the bank robbery aspect, only their awesome tunneling which is superb. If they had just paid a little attention to bank security details, they would've cleaned out both the second and the third bank and then they would've gotten about $20 million. The 2nd and 3rd tunnel failures robbed them of the notoriety this brilliant crime should've received. The first heist was a success though. All together, they got about $2.5 million total. Like $200,000 in cash and the rest is what they got from the safety deposit boxes.

they were the last ones to tunnel their way into any vaults in the US. i think law enforcement was kind of in awe of them, all that work, all that perfection, on the UM segment the detective that was on the case said "we view this as the crime of the century as far as burglaries are concerned." That's why this was featured in that book Awsi is gonna get. It was one of the cases that stuck with the FBI guys.

Awsi they're freaking stupid over at uscfootball.com well not all of them but a lot. i think your posts are way over their heads. seriously, i love your posts, you have an esoteric knowledge of sports betting.

Well, I'm $3 closer to the Amazon order after a change of pace last night.:D

Funny, I don't mind making dozens of sports bets on a single day but departing with money for a material exchange almost makes me twitch. Got to be plenty of value.

Yeah, SiberianKiss got it right. These guys would be alltime legendary if they had pulled off the second and third heists cleanly and made megamillions. It's got to be tough figuring out the security aspects and how they vary from bank to bank. It's not like you can ask what happens with alarms if you tunnel into the vault from below. Can you imagine the, "oh sh**!" reaction when they heard the bank manager opening the vault. :lol:

They were bright to do multiple tunnels at once. The crime is so unusual it's naturally going to send authorities scrambling to locate additional tunnels. And only certain areas and banks were potential targets given location of the storm drains. I think the segment said they picked a holiday weekend and no doubt would have cleared out both vaults if the security system hadn't detected them. No doubt they realized the other tunnel would be located, and they probably never went back to it. Imagine the frustration after all that effort. If I were authorities I would have placed cameras outside those tunnels for years, to see if anyone came to stop and look at the entrance in strange fashion.

Actually, I think the USC football forum is very high caliber. I respect many of the posters quite a bit and only a few are pathetic, like your stalker. Miami's board is good also. Both are considerably more impressive than the national forum. That's where the goofs hang out.

But the anti-Notre Dame ferocity on the SC board surprises me. I guess Charlie Weis contributes to that. It's okay for SC fans to be arrogant but others can't go that route. So now anything associated with Notre Dame sucks. Sorry, but that's not reality and I'm not going there. I'm also not going to hang around a thread and post dozens of times back and forth with people who disagree with me. I had more than my fill of that in the marathon DB Cooper threads on this forum last year. Now I prefer to make a lengthy post or two with my primary opinions then move to something else.

But just wait until I start posting on the political forum over there. I just discovered it. Man, will I make some pissed off new enemies. :lol:

Well, I'm $3 closer to the Amazon order after a change of pace last night.:D

Funny, I don't mind making dozens of sports bets on a single day but departing with money for a material exchange almost makes me twitch. Got to be plenty of value.

Yeah, SiberianKiss got it right. These guys would be alltime legendary if they had pulled off the second and third heists cleanly and made megamillions. It's got to be tough figuring out the security aspects and how they vary from bank to bank. It's not like you can ask what happens with alarms if you tunnel into the vault from below. Can you imagine the, "oh sh**!" reaction when they heard the bank manager opening the vault. :lol:

They were bright to do multiple tunnels at once. The crime is so unusual it's naturally going to send authorities scrambling to locate additional tunnels. And only certain areas and banks were potential targets given location of the storm drains. I think the segment said they picked a holiday weekend and no doubt would have cleared out both vaults if the security system hadn't detected them. No doubt they realized the other tunnel would be located, and they probably never went back to it. Imagine the frustration after all that effort. If I were authorities I would have placed cameras outside those tunnels for years, to see if anyone came to stop and look at the entrance in strange fashion.

Actually, I think the USC football forum is very high caliber. I respect many of the posters quite a bit and only a few are pathetic, like your stalker. Miami's board is good also. Both are considerably more impressive than the national forum. That's where the goofs hang out.

But the anti-Notre Dame ferocity on the SC board surprises me. I guess Charlie Weis contributes to that. It's okay for SC fans to be arrogant but others can't go that route. So now anything associated with Notre Dame sucks. Sorry, but that's not reality and I'm not going there. I'm also not going to hang around a thread and post dozens of times back and forth with people who disagree with me. I had more than my fill of that in the marathon DB Cooper threads on this forum last year. Now I prefer to make a lengthy post or two with my primary opinions then move to something else.

But just wait until I start posting on the political forum over there. I just discovered it. Man, will I make some pissed off new enemies. :lol:



No no all they needed to know is if the bank they were gonna rob used the time lock on their vaults. Then there wouldn't be any way to open it when they were in there. B of A has never used the time lock. It wouldn't be too hard with a bank branch that size and thousands of employees past and present to find out that info. Even if they robbed it anyway without the time lock, what they should have done is purposely set off the alarms ahead of time so on vault-busting day, the bank managers would've just thought it was a false alarm and thought there was a malfunction. This is what they inadvertently did during the first (successful) job. The alarms went off there too. However, in the week before the big weekend, their tools and digging was causing major problems with the bank. The power went out, it was because the tunnel boys tapped into their power system to run their tools. Other weird things were happening too. Lots of false alarms. And of course there was no way to open the vault to check.

You're right in that, for the first job, they planned it on Memorial Day weekend so they would have one more day to break into more safe deposit boxes. But they had trouble drilling up with the core bit so they had to cut their way through alllllll that concrete by hand when they were right under the vault. That took an extra week. Amazing! Can you imagine just sitting there for hours and hours sawing away in some man-made tunnel?

As for the third tunnel that they had completed but never got the chance to break into, what happened was...when the cops found it, see they were digging under a real busy street in Los Angeles. So they had to have engineers check out and see if it was possible for somebody driving to fall through the asphalt and into the tunnel. So there was a huge traffic jam and people going in and out of the sewers. Then the news got a hold of it and they couldn't keep it a secret. Another thing mentioned is that they had no place to hide a stakeout team in the sewers even if they kept it a secret.

I know what you mean when you talk about how frustrated they were after all that work. The first one was a success but they were really amateurs when it came to robbing banks. They didn't bring proper tools to bust into the safety deposit boxes and couldn't get them all. That's something the FBI noticed right away. Amazing tunnelers but amateur robbers. For the second and third tunnels though, they brought much better box-busting tools with them. If only they had purposely set off the alarms a week before. They would've cleaned out both banks. I wish they would've hahaha. In the second robbery, they did get $98,000 though. They had to haul ass outta there obviously.

see my avatar Awsi? that's the composite sketch of the suspect they showed on the UM segment. what i don't understand is Robert Stack said "sales people came up with two different composite sketches of the same man." How can you have two different sketches of the same guy? The faces are similar but the hair is completely different. Doesn't make sense to me. Maybe long periods of time had passed from when certain witnesses sold them the tools and the ATV's? Another thing, maybe they are brothers, two different people but related?

I personally think there was three of them, maybe 4 but that's it. the book said perhaps 4-5. There was definitely a look-out up top at all times. I think there were two guys digging and one guy up top....3 total.

I finally got the book and read the Hole in the Ground Gang chapter. SiberianKiss described the basics very well. It looks like what foiled the sewer rats was too much focus and ability regarding the tunneling but no emphasis or knowledge about banks and their security system.

The first one in '86 went well but they didn't capitalize as much as they could have via less than ideal tools. They pried open the smaller safety deposit boxes which was an inferior strategy. It made the surrounding boxes unavailable due to the flanges of jagged metal suddenly covering them up. For every box they opened they closed off access to the ones on top, bottom and sides of the opened one. More sophisticated bank robbers like the Dinsio gang from Ohio used a sledgehammer and a two-headed punch.

In the first robbery the diamond-studded core bit also slipped and they couldn't steady it while trying to drill upward through the 18 inch bottom of the vault. That foiled the plans to hit on the long Memorial Day weekend. They had to spend an extra week chipping away at the vault floor with concrete saws and hand drills. Keep in mind they were working in less than ideal conditions. The tunnel was described as being 3 feet by 3 feet in some areas, properly rounded and not square to lessen likelihood of collapse, then somewhat bigger in others including occasional chambers. The chamber underneath the vault was 4 feet wide and 5.5 feet high. So unless these were midget bandits they were forced to crouch and hold heavy tools above their heads for long periods. It had to be excruciating labor.

I'll include several smaller posts instead of marathon ones. But here's a funny note regarding the first robbery; a bank manager who was working late heard noises several times and reported them to the central security offices. She described them as a grinding sound. He checked his sensors and assured her nothing seemed askew, that the sound sensors in the vault had not been activated.

Get this, he told her what she was hearing was probably just a rat running around inside the walls. :lol:

She was flabbergasted and even held the phone up against the vault so the guy downtown could hear the sound, but since his monitors still showed nothing and the noise soon stopped, she gave up.

Here's something that SiberianKiss mentioned but I didn't fully grasp until reading the book. What foiled this crew was lack of knowledge regarding different practices than standard by Bank of America, specifically not using the time lock on the vault door. At the end of each business day the manager typically sets the time lock to make the vault inaccessible until the morning of the next business day. Once the time lock was set the vault couldn't be opened even in a dire emergency, other than by drilling out the vault door.

That aspect acted as a comfort zone to robbers tunneling from below. Even if they tripped alarms or caused other noises they knew the vault likely would not be suspected as a source since it was time locked shut. Also no one could disturb them inside the vault, as long as they were in there during off hours, i.e. a weekend.

The first bank caper was at First Interstate Bank in Hollywood. They followed the typical practice regarding time locking the vault. That's why the bank manager could only listen to the suspicious noises and hold the phone to the vault door for the person at central security to hear. But the tunnel gang was pathetically unaware that their second target, a Bank of America at the corner of Pico and La Cienega, did not follow the same procedure. Bank of America was skeptical of the time lock approach so they stayed away from it in favor of a double combination approach with two employees knowing separate sections of a vault combination. That allowed after-hours access in case of emergency.

So when the sewer rats were in that Bank of America vault in August 1987 they probably weren't overly concerned until they heard the tumblers moving and realized the vault was about to spring open. At that point they had to scram, and left behind many items including plenty of cash on the counters of the vault.

The other completed tunnel -- never used -- was beneath a savings and loan in Beverly Hills. That savings and loan was open on Saturday. So the plan no doubt was to clean out the Bank of America on Friday night and throughout Saturday, and then hit the savings and loan on Saturday night and into Sunday. On Monday morning both capers would have been discovered virtually simultaneously and the robbers become world famous, the biggest bank robberies in history with a take of $10 to $25 million.

BTW, I agree with SiberianKiss that likely 3 robbers were involved, not the 4-5 suspected in the book. Two tunnelers and one guy observing above and giving info via walkie-talkie.

I'd also guarantee it took longer for the tunnels to be dug than the author guesses. He thinks weeks, maybe months. I'd say several months. That type of backbreaking work in tight and dark claustrophobic spaces requires taking a break, and breaks of many days to regroup mentally and physically. You can't simply estimate how many feet they probably worked per day and then multiply by number of days it required. They'll run into unexpected obstacles along with the physical exertion. It takes time to plan the next move and make adjustments from your original ideas. Plus there's also factors of daily lives, things you want to do or need to do apart from nightly tunneling. If a friend or relative wants to visit or go somewhere you can't make excuse after excuse of never being available. With at least three guys you multiply that reality by 3+. And once in a while the outside of the sewer was probably simply not available due to unexpected activity or cars parked where they normally would not be. Inexperienced robbers like that are going to be suspicious and cautious when something looks different along their point of entry and exit.

oh great posts, this is the best UM

I drove by the 2nd and 3rd banks today, they're still there, the 2nd one is still a Bank of America, the other one is different now. I'm sure very few people ever realize when they drive by that that was the last bank anyone ever tunneled their way into, at least here in the USA.

damn i wish they would've hit both and succeeded. if only they had put even 1/10th as much work into bank security procedure as they did in tunneling.

That chapter was great to read. The author provides plenty of filler but it's interesting and well written filler.

In the Hole in the Ground Gang chapter he tells all about the famous Laguna Niguel robbery in 1972, the Dinsio gang entering through the roof top. That robbery is featured in shows on Court TV and the Discovery Channel. The basics are all the same in the book but one thing amazed me.

I assumed the finger prints -- found on the dishes in the dishwasher that was never turned on -- were gathered shortly after the crime. But this book says the break in the case was a similar robbery in Lordstown, Ohio 6 weeks after Laguna Niguel. Only at that point did the authorities have names to check and traced them to southern California. When they finally found the condo they saw the dishwasher had not been turned on.

So that means the dirty dishes sat there for 2 months after the robbers departed. Hard to believe. It was described as a plush condo even though it rented for only $500 per month at the time, which shows how much has changed in 35 years.

oh great posts, this is the best UM

I drove by the 2nd and 3rd banks today, they're still there, the 2nd one is still a Bank of America, the other one is different now. I'm sure very few people ever realize when they drive by that that was the last bank anyone ever tunneled their way into, at least here in the USA.

damn i wish they would've hit both and succeeded. if only they had put even 1/10th as much work into bank security procedure as they did in tunneling.

That's exactly what I was thinking while reading the chapter. DAMN. Why didn't they get away with it?

It would have been a legendary caper along the lines of DB Cooper. Plus in this one you've got a true whodunit not an obvious case of someone doing it again months later.

Plus, look at it this way; if they had gotten away with it they most likely would have been caught by now. Extremely likely. The case would have been so high profile the focus would have been 100 fold. Amateur sleuths would have looked into it relentlessly.

And these guys inevitably make a basic mistake, like the wife of the Trench Coat robber who complained about the workmanship on her cash-bought custom home and the builder turned her in as suspicious.

LOL. The author wasn't exactly impressed with the quality of tips he got from UM. I'll include what he wrote, word for word:

"In 1989, eighteen months after the second set of tunnels, Dennis Pagenkopp and the Burglary Special guys got the NBC reality crime show Unsolved Mysteries to do a segment on the three tunnel jobs. The show generated a couple hundred telephone tips, but it was the usual tipster circus; tunnel rats, troglodytes, Chinese commies burrowing through the earth. One caller insisted, for reasons that were unclear, that it was Hopi Indians. Absolutely nothing solid to work with.

"And it still goes on. Every time that Unsolved Mysteries episode is repeated in syndication -- the last time was in 1998 -- more hopeless tips trickle in."

The book, BTW, was published in 2003. It was a segment that Lifetime seemed to run very seldom.

The author stresses that the statute of limitations has run out, and that even if they confessed all he could do was congratulate them and buy them a no-hard-feelings beer.

Yeah, right. I'd love to wager on that. You know damn well they would find some trumped up semi-related charge. Hell, they tunneled underground and broke into property. They filed off serial numbers and used false names while buying the equipment, including the amusing name Robert Spaulding to buy the ATVs. I'm sure the robbers got a kick out of that. Spaulding was the name of the Hollywood street where they tunneled into the first bank.

How could they not pay attention to bank security? I'll have to ask them when I find them. It's really a miracle that they didn't succeed, if only they would've set off the alarms several times right before they busted in, then LE would think it was a false alarm when they really did get inside the vault. How could they be so brilliant with one aspect of it and ignore the other? A real shame.

One interesting note...in the Hollywood job, there were 4 safety deposit boxes that the owners didn't report any losses. Perhaps they had something stolen and valuable in those boxes and couldn't tell the authorities about it. The author mentioned that.

At least they did one though and it was successful. They pulled off a multi-million dollar bank heist. How many people can say THAT?

I dunno if they would've been caught. Back in 1986, it's not like it is today, no internet and all that, news doesn't travel as fast. I mean the first one was a success and it hardly generated anything in the newspapers past a day or two. I looked it up, hardly anything. And the FBI didn't even come close to catching them. Do you think it would've been as famous as D.B. Cooper? They definitely had better tools to break into ALL the safe boxes this time around for TWO banks. I can't believe they did two banks at once hahaha. What balls. One heist sounds hard enough, especially all that digging in the sewers. For the second one (they did get like $98,000 at least) and the third that never was....the newspaper attention was also very little. Maybe about a week's worth. And only a vague reference that they were connected to the Hollywood job a year before. Plus after 1992, they couldn't be charged with the crimes because of the statute of limitations. *edit* yes even if they couldn't throw them in jail, I'm sure they could make life very difficult for those fellows. Robert Spaulding yeah hahahahaha. The UM segment was interesting too.

the author is hilarious, lol the tipsters. he's funny throughout the whole book. By the way, I liked his fictionalized version of who they were and how it went down.

The Hole in the Ground Gang are still legends! Perhaps they read this board?

I'm not saying they would have been caught immediately unless they really screwed up. But combine the exponentially increased legend and focus, plus millions of available dollars and all the enticements, and yeah I think it's likely they would have been nabbed. The book indicates they were able to trace several purchases and got a basic description -- white males, early 30s, slim and muscular, construction-like clothes, no accent, short hair in a long hair era, and one guy said they looked military like Top Gun types.

Plus there is one partial fingerprint, from one of the Suzuki Quad ATVs.

Hey SiberianKiss, I was startled that the following chapter dealt with a major robbery in the University Village at USC in 1997. Obviously an inside job and $722,000 taken from a Bank of America. Which bank is that, if you know? There was one near the pizza place/bar on the west side of the UV. That one was closer to Century Apartments, where I lived first. The other bank was near the Burger King, at the corner on the east side of the UV, smack across the street from the entrance to campus if coming from places like the Row or Troy Hall. Last time I was there that bank had become a Denny's, of all things. That was the bank I used as a student. From the description I couldn't tell which bank was robbed. My instinct is the Bank of America was the larger one, not the one that became a Denny's.

nm

yeah you had it right, the west side (not the one near the Denny's) the one on the corner of Jefferson and McClintock, right across from Webb Tower (Webb is next to Fluor Tower) and also across from where you can drive into USC and yes near the Century apts. It's still there, a Bank of America.

Thanks SiberianKiss. You jolted my memory with some of those familiar names. The bank I used was on the corner of Jefferson and Hoover. That became a Denny's. The Bank of America was near the apartment complex called Cardinal Gardens. Some real babes lived there, when I was at Century. I have no idea if those places still have the same names. The tower you call Fluor must be the one I knew as Residence West in the '80s. It was side by side with Webb Tower.

Here are the dimensions and some specifics of the two tunnels they used:

* First tunnel: trapezoid 20 x 25 foot hole in bottom of vault, then a hollow chamber 4 feet across and 5.5 feet high immediately below vault, then a narrow passageway 3 feet high and wide leading to a chamber slightly larger than the first, then another 3 foot hole slanted sharply downward for 7 to 8 feet, ending in another large chamber with a 12 foot ceiling. That's where they tapped into the underground power line to run the power tools, the top of that large chamber. Next was another narrow passageway sloping gently downhill until it levels out and becomes much higher. Every 20 feet or so, shelved niches were formed into the walls to place lanterns until the power source could be tapped. It ended at a hole cut into the side of a concrete pipe, 4.5 feet in diameter, a pipe that was part of the network of storm sewers. The tunnel was 100 feet long

* Second tunnel: shorter than the first, 70 feet. Larger and more sophisticated, 4 feet wide in most areas and at least 5.5 feet high throughout. This one had 2x4s used for shoring in some areas, and electric lights strung along the ceiling, powered by gas generator. They found superior ways to secure the boring machine and core bit steady to cut a perfectly round 18 inch hole. A major difference was at the beginning of the tunnel. The opening to the storm sewer was only 18 inches, drilled through 10 inch thick reinforced concrete. That forced improvisation, namely wheelbarrows that had to be cut into sections and then bolted back together with metal straps.

The estimate in the first tunnel was it took approximately 1500 wheelbarrow trips. A 2 foot mud flow was found downstream from the tunnel.

Oh yeah, author Wlliam Rehder ripped First Interstate Bank for the cheap reward in the first caper, a mere $20,000 in a multi million dollar theft. :lol:

This heist took place the weekend that I got married. My Aunt was visiting from L.A. for my wedding, she was the Manager or Assistant Manager of that branch! So I vividly remember this case.

She was quite shocked. This case has never been solved.

This heist took place the weekend that I got married. My Aunt was visiting from L.A. for my wedding, she was the Manager or Assistant Manager of that branch! So I vividly remember this case.

She was quite shocked. This case has never been solved.

AWESOMETASTIC!

Which heist? the successful one? in 1986 of June 7-9? or August 22 of 1987? (they did get about $100 K at least before law enforcement got wise to them)

The Hole in the Ground Gang are still legends! Perhaps they read this board?

No doubt. Seriously. There's almost nothing on the internet regarding their case so that's got to be frustrating. If you do a search all it unveils is a few references to that Rehder book, primarily the listing at Amazon.com.

Otherwise this board is the only place it is being discussed. They knew UM featured them so everything funnels here, just like their downstream dirt. :lol:

They're probably laughing at our incorrect guesswork. And it's got to bring back devastating memories of how close they were, but just too sloppy and unprepared in a few critical areas, foiling the crime of the century.

Like you said, even the current bank employees probably don't even know what happened there, or could have. Meanwhile, if they had pulled it off clean, those banks would be on the celebrity tour maps.

Sorry guys :welcome:

I scoured the internet for a long time looking for ANYTHING on the Tunnel Boys but nothing except like you said, mainly amazon listings for the book and just mentioned the name of the chapter, that's it.

There was one exception though. A long time ago, I found something on Court TV, show called Impossible Heists. They re-created the conditions from a cool heist or something that thieves ripped off and had two teams try to duplicate the feat and the first team to do it wins. The pilot episode was a re-creation of the 1986 Hollywood bank job! I never saw the episode as I found this long afterwards. Here is an old link I just found...

http://www.courttv.com/press/impossible_heists_101403.html

I scoured the internet for a long time looking for ANYTHING on the Tunnel Boys but nothing except like you said, mainly amazong listing for the book and just mentioned the name of the chapter, that's it.

There was one exception though. A long time ago, I found something on Court TV, show called Impossible Heists. They re-created the conditions from a cool heist or something that thieves ripped off and had two teams try to duplicate the feat and the first team to do it wins. The pilot episode was a re-creation of the 1986 Hollywood bank job! I never saw the episode as I found this long afterwards. Here is an old link I just found...

http://www.courttv.com/press/impossible_heists_101403.html

Good find. Too bad it was the pilot. On the website they have descriptions of the 5 real heists that the 5 episodes were based on, including links to articles on those cases. But naturally they ignore the pilot. I don't give a dank about the antiseptic recreations. Looks like that program was too ambitious and only lasted 5 episodes.

I hope the other poster replies to you. We need the aunt to get on here and blurt out more details. Maybe that would be like Barry Melrose also. I can't keep track of all the concerns and vague references. We need dirt.

The UM segment was very cool to watch because they showed photos of the tunnels and the hole in the vault and the busted safe boxes. The tunneling really was a stroke of genius.

And they showed the composite sketches which wasn't mentioned in the book. The pictures confuse me though because, like we talked about, it's supposed to be two sketches of the same man. But the hair is completely different!? Plus the author said the descriptions given by the salespeople were SHORT hair in a long hair era. One of the sketches the guy has long hair.

The UM segment was very cool to watch because they showed photos of the tunnels and the hole in the vault and the busted safe boxes. The tunneling really was a stroke of genius.

And they showed the composite sketches which wasn't mentioned in the book. The pictures confuse me though because, like we talked about, it's supposed to be two sketches of the same man. But the hair is completely different!? Plus the author said the descriptions given by the salespeople were SHORT hair in a long hair era. One of the sketches the guy has long hair.

I'd say the guy on the left has long hair. That's my theory, and it belongs to me.

Also, all brontosauruses are thin at one end, much MUCH thicker in the middle, and then thin again at the far end. That is the theory that I have and which is mine, and what it is too.

I read plenty of the book tonight and finally flipped through the whole thing once I realized he doesn't use a single photo. That's a strange choice. Just imagine how effective pictures of the tunnels and the entrance to the sewers would have been. A photo of a big hole in the bottom of a bank vault could have been the cover shot.

Yeah, I'm starting to appreciate the UM segment more and more. They should have had an update or a new little blip of info every week.

bump.

I miss Awsi Dooger.

Awsi, if you're still posting, send me a PM!

PS - Let's talk about the tunnel burglars. There's a poster here whose aunt was the bank manager at one of those banks...

PPS - Has this case been profiled on the new UM?

There are some crimes that deserves not to be solved...this is one. They had style, skills and they did not "hurt" anybody. Even the detective in the UM segment admired them. Let them live the good life :lol:

Well, I'd be happier to let this one go "unsolved" and let the guys go on living a good life, if I happened to be a really, really, really close friend who would be benefitting from their visits to the bank vault. Otherwise, I'm a just a nosey person who wants to know who did it, how they did it, what it was like while they were doing it, and what the heck were they thinking!?!

http://books.google.com/books?id=OzTKhqhGCroC&pg=PA150&lpg=PA150&dq=Hole+in+the+Ground+Gang&source=bl&ots=BR74KdCBSO&sig=0_in0iSGU3VIVRVC-pzxd8bF2wM&hl=en&ei=42unSYumE4zRnQfLmJXnDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=5&ct=result

http://books.google.com/books?id=OzTKhqhGCroC&pg=PA150&lpg=PA150&dq=Hole+in+the+Ground+Gang&source=bl&ots=BR74KdCBSO&sig=0_in0iSGU3VIVRVC-pzxd8bF2wM&hl=en&ei=42unSYumE4zRnQfLmJXnDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=5&ct=result

Thanks for that link but the 2 pages that actually describe the guys breaking into the vault are missing.

So, they NEVER caught these guys?? You think they are mob guys or what?

Well, I'd be happier to let this one go "unsolved" and let the guys go on living a good life, if I happened to be a really, really, really close friend who would be benefitting from their visits to the bank vault. Otherwise, I'm a just a nosey person who wants to know who did it, how they did it, what it was like while they were doing it, and what the heck were they thinking!?!

LOL! Good one. We don't mind them getting away with it if we got a cut of the loot, huh?

Even the FBI agent in that book link said he admired the robbers balls and determination. I just don't see how these guys will EVER be caught since NO ONE knows WHO they are except the robbers themselves.

So unless the robbers feel guilty and turn themselves in we'll probably never know. Unless that small chance that they bragged to someone about it and they tell on them but it's been over 20 years so what is the statute of limitations on bank robbery?

BTW, I really don't think the robbers will feel guilty about robbing a BANK because banks have just gotten BILLIONS in bailout money and they've been screwing the public for years!

but it's been over 20 years so what is the statute of limitations on bank robbery?

I was wondering about that, too.

Where are our in house lawyers? We need some more free legal advice. lol

Since these bank robberies were federal crimes, I'd guess that there's no limit and the thieves are always at risk of arrest.

I was wondering about that, too.

Where are our in house lawyers? We need some more free legal advice. lol

Since these bank robberies were federal crimes, I'd guess that there's no limit and the thieves are always at risk of arrest.

Just because they are federal crimes doesn't mean there are no statute of limitations. I'm pretty sure most federal crimes do have statutes of limitations except the very serious ones that involve bodily harm.

These guys are probably pretty close to being safe of not being prosecuted at all. After 30 years has passed I doubt they'd still prosecute at all even if they went to police and ADMITTED they did it. LOL

bump.

I miss Awsi Dooger.

Awsi, if you're still posting, send me a PM!

PS - Let's talk about the tunnel burglars. There's a poster here whose aunt was the bank manager at one of those banks...

PPS - Has this case been profiled on the new UM?

When did Awsi leave? Did he give a reason?

Wiseguy182, if you are retired from this forum then why are you posting here??

The real reason I retired was because I was being bullied by a troll named IreneParalegal, who bullied quite a few people on SO. She got away with it because she had friends in high places. Ironically, those friends in high places ended up being on the receiving end of some of the bile she was spewing at other people. Irony can be so ironic sometimes.
Right, Irene's gone, and I'm an Administrator now. She sure showed me, and TJ, lol.

PPS: I absolutely love the people that claim my retirement thread was a grab for attention. Awwwww. Thanks, Wiseguy! Love you too, buddy! Kisses!

Wait, wasn't this thread about the tunneling bank robbers? This is one of my favorite segments. I felt like even LE had a good amount of respect for these guys, despite the fact that they are criminals.

Just because they are federal crimes doesn't mean there are no statute of limitations. I'm pretty sure most federal crimes do have statutes of limitations except the very serious ones that involve bodily harm.

These guys are probably pretty close to being safe of not being prosecuted at all. After 30 years has passed I doubt they'd still prosecute at all even if they went to police and ADMITTED they did it. LOL

I have a question...I understand the statute of limitations not allowing for prosecution after a certain time. But what happens if the police DO discover who it was after the fact? Can they still seize the money?

I have a question...I understand the statute of limitations not allowing for prosecution after a certain time. But what happens if the police DO discover who it was after the fact? Can they still seize the money?

Who is going to keep money sitting around for decades?? Most or all of the money would be gone anyway. But once the statue of limitations is over I'm pretty sure there is nothing they can do since they can no longer arrest you.

Who is going to keep money sitting around for decades??

Someone whose waiting for the status of limitations to expire. ;)

Someone whose waiting for the status of limitations to expire. ;)

But they need to get rid of in case they are caught. So the best way to get rid of it is to spend it. Spending cash because it leaves no paper trail like a check or credit card would.

I think they spent it.

Do you guys think they spent it foolishly, like maybe they ran off to Vegas acting like big spenders... Bought fancy cars, gold and diamond jewelry, went on big vacations, and ran through the cash fast?

Or do you think that since they worked so hard to get it, and were patient in working for it, that they spent it carefully and made it last so they could live off of it?

Right now, I'm undecided...

I think they spent it.

Do you guys think they spent it foolishly, like maybe they ran off to Vegas acting like big spenders... Bought fancy cars, gold and diamond jewelry, went on big vacations, and ran through the cash fast?

Or do you think that since they worked so hard to get it, and were patient in working for it, that they spent it carefully and made it last so they could live off of it?

Right now, I'm undecided...


Reading the book that was posted about Where the money is, true tales from the bank robbery capital of the world one of the authors theorizes about the heists and the cash, that the robbers really didn't end up with that much money. Didn't think it added up to enough to retire on.

For the Memorial Day 1986 robbery of First Interstate they got away with $172,000. He thinks that equipment for the heist was about $20,000, there were living expenses during the two months of digging, he thinks there were about 5 people involved, split up it's about $30,000 each for two months work. A nice chunk in 1987, but not a huge amount. He said there were things from safe deposit boxes, but the items would be hard to get rid of and some of the things, he didn't even think the robbers were sophisticated (or professional) enough to know if they were valuable or not.

For the heist on 8/22/87 of the Bank of America they got out with only
"$98,000 - minus expenses, split 4 or 5 ways" (Pgs. 192-195).

Interesting book, just read the chapter on the tunnel heists.

He ends the chapter this way:
"And so, in my imagination, I see a trailer sitting in a mobile home park in Pahrump, Nevada, or ouside Bakersfield, cooking in the sun. Inside, it's clean and orderly, the home of a guy who is disciplined, meticulous, a man who lives by himself and likes things just so. There's a small TV, a mustard-colored couch, a fridge well stocked with beer, a battered hard hat sitting on a Formica table, and a pair of dusty work boots resting on a dull green linoleum floor. It's a totally unremarkable place, with almost nothing at all to indicate that its occupant once did something amazing.

But in the bedroom, on top of a particle-board chest of drawers full of tightly rolled socks and neatly folded underwear, there's an old book of poetry that someday the man who lives here might just read. And over the bed, encased in a Wal-Mart fame and hanigng from a nail driven into the wood veneer paneling, there's an untitled sketch of a young woman, a kind of free-flowing line drawing, a series of loops and swirls that show the idea of the woman more than the details of her. He's been dragging it around with him for years now, and while he doesn't know much about the drawing, he likes it. It's important to him. It's by some guy named Matisse."

one of the authors theorizes about the heists and the cash, that the robbers really didn't end up with that much money. Didn't think it added up to enough to retire on.

For the Memorial Day 1986 robbery of First Interstate they got away with $172,000. He thinks that equipment for the heist was about $20,000, there were living expenses during the two months of digging, he thinks there were about 5 people involved, split up it's about $30,000 each for two months work. A nice chunk in 1987, but not a huge amount. He said there were things from safe deposit boxes, but the items would be hard to get rid of and some of the things, he didn't even think the robbers were sophisticated (or professional) enough to know if they were valuable or not.

For the heist on 8/22/87 of the Bank of America they got out with only
"$98,000 - minus expenses, split 4 or 5 ways" (Pgs. 192-195).

Really glad you brought that up. I always wondered about that--doesn't seem like a very brilliant plan to me at all, as all that would've cost tremendous amounts of money, labor, and manhours. Actually, it was quite a stupid idea. I never understood why so many people thought that heist was so incredibly prodigous.

Sounds like interesting reading!

The statute of limitations ended in 1992.

The heist would've been more successful if they had brought better tools to break into the safety-deposit boxes. Their next heist would've been extremely lucrative had they paid more attention to bank security detail. They could've busted two bank vaults and they had brought much better tools to break into all the boxes plus 2 vaults would equal a lot more cash. They didn't pay attention to basic bank security unfortunately (hey bank robbers, if you're reading, send me a PM, I'd like to hear about it, I promise I'll keep your secret)

Still, they successfully pulled off a multi-million dollar bank heist. And never got caught. Not bad...not bad at all.

Brillant crime

I love this case, it's like your so much in awe of them you never want them to get caught. :lol:

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2011/01/03/20110103argentina-bank-robbery-tunnel.html

Was this heist more impressive or the one with the fast drying glue on the alarms? I thought that guy was brilliant as well. And the authorities couldn't find him either when they thought they had him trapped inside still (although I think he slipped out in the time the manager saw him in the window).

Yeah, I always felt like LE was kind of impressed with them (for lack of a better term). It has that "I drink your milkshake" vibe to it. :) It's one of my favorite cases for sure.

I hate to be gross...but given that these tasks would have taken endless hours to complete, it's obvious that trips to the bathroom would be impossible;I wonder if the FBI got any DNA from the..."waste"... that these guys left behind.

Oh this crime was impressive. Not to pat criminals on the back but geez these folks were smart, cunning and clever.

necro-BUMP

these guys were geniuses, although after doing the math as was done earlier, they may not have turned a hefty profit after all the ATV and massive drill purchases. It had to have been split between multiples, and after the last attempt went awry, they were likely out of a good bit of anticipated net income.

necro-BUMP

these guys were geniuses, although after doing the math as was done earlier, they may not have turned a hefty profit after all the ATV and massive drill purchases. It had to have been split between multiples, and after the last attempt went awry, they were likely out of a good bit of anticipated net income.

I remember watching this episode as a kid and being amazed at the ingenuity here, and wondering why these guys didn't continue their schemes. Upon recently re-watching the episode as an adult and paying attention to the finer details and the profits obtained in these heists, coupled with the exposure as the police became wary to the scheme, and I understand why they decided to hang it up.

Great case though.

I'll mention that a few months ago I was contacted via private message by a producer who is planning to make a documentary on this case. He found this old thread and wanted to know if I had any theories on the case. I told him that SiberianKiss was much more of an authority, and had in fact visited all the sites and taken pictures. I happened to have those pictures, courtesy of an email exchange with SiberianKiss many years ago. I was shocked I still had the pictures but when I found them I forwarded them to the producer. He was thrilled and wanted to talk to SiberianKiss. I'm not sure if he did.

Anyway, I thought it was an interesting development. I have not heard anything further, nor do I know the timetable or any specifics. Obviously it could fall apart, or simply not have enough new info to warrant the documentary.

I wasn't asked not to mention it here, so now I have.

I just watched this segment and damn, I'm honestly very impressed. I know I've seen it before, but it's been a while. They put so much time and effort into committed a genius crime. I'm guessing the perps worked construction and knew exactly what they were doing. I don't think they were the average petty crime criminals. It wouldn't surprise me if these were the only crimes these two ever committed.

In the words of Ron Burgundy: "I'm not even mad, that's amazing."

I've always been fascinated by this one. The statute of limitations for whomever it was to be charged with anything expired in 1992.

http://articles.latimes.com/2009/dec/27/local/la-me-then27-2009dec27

While the second burglary incident was fresh, authorities made a stunning discovery -- a third tunnel, which stopped near a vault at a Union Federal Savings and Loan on Wilshire Boulevard in Beverly Hills.

That vault hadn't been entered; perhaps the burglars decided not to stretch their luck.

Whatever the case, they were never caught and the statute of limitations on their crimes ran out in 1992.

I think the two were cops or atleast knew someone inside. For them to stop after being so close either they died or knew inside Intel how much heat was on them and maybe spooked.

Is it just me or do the two composite drawings of the suspects look like the exact same person with different hair?

https://www.wptv.com/news/state/tunnel-found-leading-toward-bank-in-pembroke-pines

Back at it

https://www.wptv.com/news/state/tunnel-found-leading-toward-bank-in-pembroke-pines

Back at it

Interesting read, but it’s definitely not “our” boys this time. This job was botched way before the tunnel was even completed, hence the sinkhole. Our guys dug perfect tunnels and didn’t screw up.

I showed this episode to our 15 yr old son. Since he considers bank robbing a victimless crime he was all for the bank robbers tunneling under there and stealing the cash. lol

He especially liked that they were never caught.

So as a civil engineer I want to add my two cents in here. I'm going to say that these guys more than likely had a background in either engineering, surveying, or construction. What they accomplished was incredibly impressive, even more impressive considering the technology readily available at the time.

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that they had access to the original plans of the sewer tunnels and access to the architectural plans of the banks. For me to do it I would want to know where the outside wall of the tunnel sits in relation to the right-of-way line of the street. Also knowing the depth of the sewer at the location would be helpful in planning out the dig. But, I would definitely need to know where the bank vault lies in the building as well as the elevation of the floor of the bank. So once I have those things and I've gone through the effort of translating those measurements down from the mouth of the tunnel to the spot where I want to start my excavation it's just down to doing the excavating and making sure that the tunnel isn't deviating off course.

So for suspects I'd start my search with employees of the county and city departments of public works, employees of engineering consultants that did work in those cities, and the employees of construction / architectural / engineering firms that worked on any recent construction projects within the vicinity of the banks. To me those are the only people who would be able to easily access those plans without raising any suspicion. Could it have been done without those plans? Sure, but it would have been an order of magnitude more difficult.

It's too bad they didn't get more.

Bad? They are parasites who stole other people's money. Sure we can admire their planning & execution, but like others who have been elevated to hero status-Great Train Robbers, Hatton Garden Heist Pensioners etc they are just a bunch of criminals taking something that others worked hard for & it wasn't all rich people who could 'afford to lose it' either-but often just regular people who had entrusted the bank with looking after their life savings etc. If somebody had tried stopping them on the way out they would likely have shot that person & like the train robbers they would be murderers.