Just wondering if anyone here is looking forward to the David Fincher-directed Zodiac movie that comes out . I am a huge Fincher fan (Se7en, Fight Club, Panic Room) and honestly cannot wait for this film.

Here's a cool clip from the film I came across today....it kinda reminded me of UM because I can imagine something like this happening to people who take rides from strangers. Here's the clip in three different formats -

Quicktime -

http://www.zodiacmovie.com/public/video_files/zodiac_give_you_a_ride_lrg.mov

Windows Media -

http://mfile.akamai.com/17690/wmv/paramount.download.akamai.com/30/mp/zodiac/zodiac_give_you_a_ride_lrg.asx

Flash -

http://www.zodiacmovie.com/public/video_files/zodiac_give_you_a_ride.flv

Thanks for that clip, Fletch. It's a depiction of the Kathleen Johns incident, a true story. There is debate whether she actually encountered Zodiac that night, but my instinct is yes.

She died a few years ago. But shortly prior to that she was located by posters on the zodiackiller.com website and answered some questions about that night.

I want to see it, but in a way it kind of sucks because I have seen the zodiac cases profiled on so many tv shows that you pretty much know the whole story/all the murders and how they happened, and that it is still unsolved. So that part is kind of a bummer, but I am going to see it.

I like these type of movies so we'll probably see it.

I'll probably go see it because it always presents a different angle to the facts and every time I see a new crime doc or movie, I always learn something more that could've been left out in the previous documentary/movie. But, as hostedbyrobertstack stated, you pretty much know the whole story and it's still unsolved.

Just a heads up. Anderson Cooper on CNN is going to have an exclusive interview with a Zodiac survivor in a few minutes. It looks like it will be the male survivor of the famous Lake Berryessa attack, the one where Zodiac wore the hood. I forget his name. Last I heard he was a prominent physician and didn't want to speak about the Zodiac episode.

That attack had some similarities to the Tom Johnson attack that CRicci and SpaceInvarerz and others have debated, since both were told to get on their stomach and Zodiac slashed at them alternately with a long knife, killing the girl but the male survived.

I saw the segment. It was Bryan Hartnell from the Lake Berryessa attack. He is an attorney, not a physician.

They went back to the site, along with two of the original investigators. Not enough specific questions for my taste but that's typical.

Hartnell said he was never worried they would be attacked, even when they were bound with rope and placed on their stomachs. He said Zodiac began the attack without a word of warning, and Hartnell said he felt the fist, not the knife. So the knife is already inside him and he's feeling the fist. He was stabbed eight times and the girl more than that. She gave a description of Zodiac before she died the next day, since she saw Zodiac before he slipped behind a tree to put on the mask.

Looks like the movie is particular to detail and well done. I'm more inclined to see it now after watching the brief clips that are available. Robert Graysmith was also briefly interviewed on tonight's show, still apparently clinging to the Arthur Leigh Allen nonsense.

I've read a lot on the Zodiac and seen a couple documentaries as well. No doubt it's an interesting case, but the movie just doesn't look that good, imo. I'll probably wait until it's out on DVD and rent it if anything.

it'll be worth seeing just b/c of Fincher

hartnell didn't feel the stabbing? wow it didn't hurt? what?

what did cecilia give as the description?

what did that idiot graysmith say? lol saw him on the AMW thing the other night, that whole zodiac segment was absolutely horrible.

on the day of the berryessa attack, three girls who were there also reported being watched by some weird guy. the description of him looked a lot like allen, especially if allen was wearing a wig. hartnell reported he thought his masked attacker was wearing a wig.

They showed the sketch that was made from Cecilia's description. I've seen it before. Kind of a square face with short hair.

Graysmith focused on the significance of the Zodiac watch worn by Allen, supposedly how rare it was. He also said the newsroom was obsessed with Zodiac; that's all they talked about.

Hartnell said the Zodiac initially said there's nothing to worry about, I just want your money and car. They should have asked him about rest of the conversation. I've read it dragged on for a long time and included some weird claims, like he was an escaped convict from a different state.

I missed the AMW program. I've read elsewhere that it included some handwriting analysis, which would have interested me.

On zodiackiller.com there's a recent update that says a San Francisco paper recently discovered an old and apparently unopened Zodiac card which had been filed away. It was shown to the webmaster of Zodiackiller.com to verify authenticity. He thinks it is legit, and says the postmark on the envelope blew him away. That implies it came much later than known communication from Zodiac. There's a marathon thread on that message board speculating on the contents and significance of the recently discovered letter. The webmaster can't understand what's taking so long for the Chronicle to publish it. He agreed not to be specific and not publish images until the paper did.

The recently discovered card is from December 1990. If legit, that would be 16 years after the latest confirmed Zodiac communication. A partial image of the outside of the envelope is at this link:

http://zodiackiller.21.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=122

"It's a "Happy Holidays" greeting card, mailed from Eureka California in December 1990. Not sure which day in December. The envelope is red and it's one of those "From your secret pal" cards, similar to the Halloween card Zodiac sent Paul Avery in 1970. One stamp was used. No "Zodiac" name, nor cross-circle symbol.

Inside the card was a xerox of two USPS keys on a keychain. The keys were numbered and a strange object, possibly a penlight, was attached to the keychain. Nothing was written inside the card, only on the envelope."

Another heads up. Anderson Cooper on CNN will have another segment tonight on Zodiac survivor Bryan Hartnell. The program just started but that segment will be later in the broadcast.

I assume it will be different footage than they showed last week, since it has been promoted all weekend and last week's clips were frustratingly brief.

Lame. Identical segment from last week. Must have been an attempt to capitalize on the movie's publicity and spike ratings for tonight's broadcast.

I just saw that segment tonight. In fact, I taped it. I didn't know they previewed it last week so I didn't know the difference. Anyway, the interview with Bryan Hartnell was interesting in itself but pretty much the same information that we who study the Zodiac case already know.

I think, as you said Awsi, it was just an attempt to capitalize on the movie's publicity. I just took it as a preview for the movie......which I'm going to see this weekend. They showed a few scenes from the movie in the segment. The interview with a surviver was interesting, though. The first interview with a Zodiac surviver I've seen on TV......

I just saw that segment tonight. In fact, I taped it. I didn't know they previewed it last week so I didn't know the difference. Anyway, the interview with Bryan Hartnell was interesting in itself but pretty much the same information that we who study the Zodiac case already know.

I think, as you said Awsi, it was just an attempt to capitalize on the movie's publicity. I just took it as a preview for the movie......which I'm going to see this weekend. They showed a few scenes from the movie in the segment. The interview with a surviver was interesting, though. The first interview with a Zodiac surviver I've seen on TV......

Agreed. The segment itself struck me tonight as better than I remembered it from last week, but disappointing since it was a pure replay.

So much missed potential. Hartnell hasn't spoken about this case in over 37 years yet the questions didn't bring out anything new, as greatgarrett2 said. Ask Hartnell about distinguishing characteristics like voice or accent or mannerisms or certain phrases, or anything that he remembered about the encounter since the last time he spoke to authorities.

I'm surprised Mike Mageau hasn't surfaced on any of the shows. He survived the attack at the golf course and has been much more public than Hartnell over the years. Mageau was the guy who got in the back seat and flopped around to thwart the gunfire.

That was clever. While watching the Lake Berryessa clip I was wondering how I would have reacted. By myself I would have run to the water and dived in, staying under water as long as possible. Best of luck to a gunman who can overcome a moving target or someone who is submerged. But if I were with a date I guess you've got to stay there and be vulnerable. Depends on cuteness level.

Depends on cuteness level.

:lol:


As far as Mike Mageau is conernced, if he wasn't such a wuss and hadn't screamed out like he did, the Zodiac wouldn't have come back to fire some more rounds and Darlene may have lived.

I was all excited when, on the front page of the zodiackiller website, Tom had this big news about a newly discovered Zodiac letter, especially when he said he was shocked by the date. I really wanted it to be past 1992 and for it be an authentic Zodiac without a doubt so that way Allen could be cleared as a suspect once and for all. But it's hard to say if that's even from the Zodiac plus it was only 1990. I'll defer to Voight on this one though, he thinks it's real. Still doesn't clear anybody though. I always thought the only suspect that was any good was Allen but even with him there was a lot that didn't make sense. I don't think he can be cleared with 100% certainty but it probably wasn't him. None of the other suspects ever made any sense to me. Either Allen or it's some random person that nobody has ever suspected.

They have the clip of Arthur Leigh Allen from that interview in the early '90s before he died. Why didn't CNN show it to Hartnell and ask if the voice, or Allen himself, matched his memory from Lake Berryessa?

I agree Allen is probably the best suspect among the named suspects but I doubt it was him. The most interesting aspect to me pointing to him were the symbols at the end of one of his letters that can be manuevered to form "Leigh," the name he went by. That was cleverly done on zodiackiller.com at one point although I'm not sure it's still there.

You're pretty harsh, SiberianKiss, calling Mageau a wuss. :lol: I agree it wasn't ideal strategy to scream and therefore verify you're still alive, prompting Zodiac back to the car, but damn those bullets might have stung a bit.

My instinct is the December 1990 card is legit. I was impressed with some of the analysis on the new zodiackiller.com message board, that a copycat would feel compelled to force some of Zodiac's old stuff including the symbol. No need to do that if you're Zodiac and it's been 16 years. I was going to register and post that theme until I saw it deep into the thread.

I'm convinced serial killers can quit. And my instinct has always been that Zodiac knew how lucky he was at the Presidio and didn't want to take a chance like that again. He verified the sketch from the teenagers looked just like him but said that's only how he looks when, "I do my thing." BS. In other words, that damn sketch looks exactly like me and I can't believe no one is turning me in.

He went through the motions with Kathleen Johns but it turned into nothing but a rage against an inanimate object, burning her car. Then he hides behind cards and letters for years, threatening words and turning up the supposed body count. By 1990 he's well into middle age and aware of technological advances so he doesn't dare take any real chances but sends a a basic card with a mysterious picture of two keys to post office boxes. He's a bit surprised when it earns no press but he's already got Graysmith's 1986 book out there, his infamy cemented and sure to grow in legend as long as there's no capture. Jack the Ripper never makes it out of the 19th century if identified at the time.

oh yeah what about you and swimming off into the sea to leave behind a girl that wasn't cute? :lol:

Allen also looks NOTHING like the Stein suspect composite sketch. Allen is bald and fat, the picture is of a slim man with a crew cut. Allen does, however, look a lot like the Berryessa case when the three girls reported some weird guy watching them. Especially considering everyone said he was wearing a wig, Allen would look just like that with a wig. Hartnell even said it looked as if Z was wearing a wig behind that crazy mask and his thoughts on the one who stabbed him and killed his girlfriend fit in with Allen's physique.

If what everyone says about how the Mageau/Farren incident is true, it sure seems like DF knew her killer. The convo was along the lines of Wuss Mageau :lol: wondering who the hell that was parked right behind them while Darlene just seemed annoyed and not really commenting.

I'm surprised you think the Kathleen Johns incident was a real Zodiac thing. Most don't. He never gave any intimate details in his letters, just what anyone would know from reading the paper. Who knows. There is one case from 1963, that I definitely believe was commited by the Zodiac, the Domingos/Edwards murder. Very similar to the Berryessa. Look that up if you don't know.

Do you think Cherry Joe Bates was a Zodiac victim?

oh yeah what about you and swimming off into the sea to leave behind a girl that wasn't cute? :lol:

Allen also looks NOTHING like the Stein suspect composite sketch. Allen is bald and fat, the picture is of a slim man with a crew cut. Allen does, however, look a lot like the Berryessa case when the three girls reported some weird guy watching them. Especially considering everyone said he was wearing a wig, Allen would look just like that with a wig. Hartnell even said it looked as if Z was wearing a wig behind that crazy mask and his thoughts on the one who stabbed him and killed his girlfriend fit in with Allen's physique.

If what everyone says about how the Mageau/Farren incident is true, it sure seems like DF knew her killer. The convo was along the lines of Wuss Mageau :lol: wondering who the hell that was parked right behind them while Darlene just seemed annoyed and not really commenting.

I'm surprised you think the Kathleen Johns incident was a real Zodiac thing. Most don't. He never gave any intimate details in his letters, just what anyone would know from reading the paper. Who knows. There is one case from 1963, that I definitely believe was commited by the Zodiac, the Domingos/Edwards murder. Very similar to the Berryessa. Look that up if you don't know.

Do you think Cherry Joe Bates was a Zodiac victim?

Look, cute or not I'd tell her to similarly sprint for the water. If she hesitates and stays there, then that's her spine. If really cute and reasonably light, I might carry and toss. :lol:

I think Zodiac started with the first two known murders at Lake Herman Road. At that point he's looking to escalate and terrorize, especially with a signature attack. After the Presideo, Zodiac has achieved the very rare status of two signature events, Lake Berryessa and the Presidio murder of Paul Stine. IMO he realized it was nothing but downhill from there, leading to inevitable capture if he persisted.

Like I said in the previous post, I'm convinced Zodiac was stunned and somewhat scared that the image looked just like him. He's hid behind darkness and a disguise in his first three events. Now he's not only lucky to escape but he's got an accurate sketch out there. He's proven sloppy all along, leaving two people alive and being seen by the black guy at the phone booth, describing his car. Plus he was sloppy when the phone rang back. This is a smart guy as evidenced by the ciphers and radian, which I believe is absolutely legit. Once he's achieved two signature events and widespread notoriety including a memorable nickname, no sense to go on and press your luck.

The Kathleen Johns episode wasn't that long after the previous murders. IMO he hadn't decided to "retire" as such yet, and was trying to summon another big event, but once he didn't finish that he realized he was mostly going through the motions. Much safer and almost as satisfying to taunt police for years. Johns identified him immediately based on the sketch. What was Zodiac supposed to do, brag about letting a woman and her baby slip away from him, the big bad serial killer? His fury led him to burn the car. That's not unlike some of the things he did after previous incidents when the adrenaline is still flowing, like writing on the car, going back to shoot Mageau and Darlene, mopping up Stine's car and ripping his shirt, and making the phone call. I'd be less convinced it was Zodiac if the guy hadn't gone back, for no apparent reason, to burn the car. Maybe he feared leaving fingerprints on the tire he worked on.

Look at the EAR/ONS. Many crimes and escalating in risk. Then he takes a 5-year break and instead of a couple he ends up killing a teenage girl in his final murder, after apparently waiting for her male companion to leave. That's not much different than Zodiac. His version of the lone teenage girl would have been Kathleen Johns but once that failed he was able to stop.

I don't think Zodiac had anything to do with Cheryl Jo Bates. I looked at the grammar and style of the desktop notes and letters and it didn't match known Zodiac writings. Plus, why wouldn't be brag about that? He's writing down his previous murders on the door of the car and writing letters saying what ammo he used. I suppose it could be argued he thought he was in more jeopardy in Riverside and could be identified if tied to that crime, but I reject that. I think it's much more logical he killed then killed quickly again, not a three year break post-Riverside.

The original post was about the new Zodiac movie so I thought Id share my thoughts on the subject.

In short, I saw the movie and thought it was terrific. Yes, the movie doesnt tell you anything new (anyone who has read the Greysmith books or frequents the ZodiacKiller.com website will recognize the names, letters, suspects, story line etc.) but it really doesnt matter. The acting is very good and Fincher is an excellent story teller.

Jake G. plays the cartoonist Greysmith and as he becomes more and more obsessed with the Zodiac I found myself feeling the same way. The movie draws you into this fascinating mystery. So for Zodiac fans or anyone interested in true crime, pay the $10 and see it. You'll be glad you did.

Christopher
PS The reviews for the movie have been very very good so I guess Im not the only person who liked it.

I have not seen the movie, and will wait for the DVD.

I want to see it, and the fact that I know the whole story does not deter my interest. However, I have heard that the entire movie is based on the hypothesis that Arthur Allen was the perp. Is this true? If so, I think that sorta sucks because there are other good suspects with just as many suspcious circumstances that make them strong suspects.

Without giving away any of the movie, is it based entirely on Arthur Allen? Or does it just sorta hint, at the end, that it was him?

IMO, this movie should be done without naming a suspect, or if you do, then name all the major ones.

I saw this movie last week, and I have to say I wasn't very impressed. For one thing, it was about 2 and a half hours long, WAYY too long, it lost my interest at times and I am even into that stuff...also, too long to go w/o going to the bathroom, so you're pretty much forced to miss a few minutes of it. The movie feels like you're watching three different movies when you leave, the murders, the investigation, and then graysmiths investigation. Also, the way they made the movie, they make you BELIEVE that allen is the killer, so everyone leaves thinking "theres no way he isn't the killer", which kind of sucks because I know how hollywood likes to persuade people like that. It was entertaining, but I would rather watch the UM segment, more to the point:)

Awsi, I agree with most of your analysis..

I have always thought that the Zodiac does NOT match the profile of your average serial killer. Most serial killers have certain "fetishes." Gacey had a fetish for young men, so did Dahmer. That's all they killed. Bundy had a fetish for young women and even killed many that looked very similar to each other (the dark haired women with parts in their hair. It has been theorized because they looked like his mom). Bundy almost invariably raped his victims and was a sexual sadist. There is nothing in the Zodiac case to suggest any "fetish." I have heard experts say he was a sexual sadist, but where is there evidence of that? He never raped any victims nor were there sexual overtones to any of the murders.

I think this man was driven more by the events proceeding the murders than by the murders themselves. He was driven by the fame. His letters prove this. His MO was more about playing games with the police than about doing the actual killings. His killings were quite sloppy and he acted inexperienced according to witnesses. He left two victims alive (or 3 if you count Johns). He was not a very good killer! I also do not see this guy as being the charming type like Bundy. He probably was not a good talker.

If I had to give this guy a "diagnosis" I would say it was narcissism. He had a superiority complex and exhibited it by flaunting his intelligence. He probably had low self-worth and felt he could be validated by outsmarting the "blue meannies." Again, he was obviously sick in order to murder innocent people he didn't know, but I still think his end game was not really the killing. He was too calculating and not impulsive enough to be the average serial killer. Really, I sometimes am torn on just how smart this guy was. I have always been confused by a guy who can create ciphers and then a guy who makes obvious misspellings in the same letter (easy words too). This seems contradictory. Some say he misspelled on purpose, but if so, why? He obviously showed intellectual fortitude with his ciphers, so why misspell? I think he wanted the cops to know he was smart, so intentionally misspelling doesn't fit.

I think this guy took great pride in his intellect and his ability to create ciphers and to lead the police down the wrong path. I would bet that this guy probably associated himself with other people like him (smart, nerdy types but who were underachievers like him). I don't buy Rodelli's notion that he was some successful millionaire. I bet he didn't make that much money. Again, I think he was an underacheiver and worked a job vastly below his ability. Perhaps he had a chip on his shoulder about this and wanted to prove himself in this sadistic way.

If I was an investigator, I would probably look into the San Fran Mensa chapter. Mensans are almost invariably narcissistic and only join clubs like that for validation (I know because I used to be a member of several IQ clubs like Mensa). Mensans are also usually underachievers in the real world (sorry to any Mensans here, I know some of you do have real careers). It is interesting because one of the famous amateur investigators of this case is a Mensan, is from San Fran, and is the about the age of what the Zodiac would be. He is also the guy to uncover the radian aspect of the Zodiac's letters. He also has written many scholarly papers on esoteric literature that the Zodiac referenced in his letters. Don't any of you Zodiac sleuths find this interesting? ;)

The original post was about the new Zodiac movie so I thought Id share my thoughts on the subject.


Yeah, I kept reading and reading and expecting someone to say they had actually seen the movie. You're right, it's getting great reviews, including an "A" in The Onion, and they hate every movie that's ever been made.

I guess some of what I've written below is sort of spoiler-ish if you don't know anything about the case, or would just prefer to judge the movie for yourself....




I saw it tonight, and I agree that it was an excellent movie. I knew just about everything involving the Zodiac case that was featured in the movie, but I still found it entertaining, suspenseful, and creepy. My friend, who knows just as much about the Zodiac, had more of a "meh" reaction. If you don't buy ALA as the Zodiac, then you might not like the movie.

I thought Robert Downey Jr. was absolutely brilliant. Mark Ruffalo was great. The murder scenes were horrifying and graphic. The dude who played ALA was creeptastic. Ione Skye played Kathleen Johns...who knew she was still acting??

A couple inconsistencies:
The guy who plays ALA was very very very bald. In the movie, I don't think they ever showed a composite sketch with the crew cut, but they mentioned the crew cut. There's no way that the movie ALA could have had a crew cut just a couple years before...which is weird since from the Graysmith's point of view, he is the Zodiac.

I noticed that in the scene at the hardware store, ALA's name was spelled "Lee" and not "Leigh" on his shirt. I guess it's possible that he could have gone by "Lee," but it just caught my eye.

They mention that DNA cleared ALA at the end of the movie, but they never mentioned the partial palm print that didn't match him either.

Awsi, I agree with most of your analysis..

Well, I had to check upthread to see what my analysis was. :lol:

I appreciate the movie reviews. I'm not an ALA guy but that's who you're going to get in a movie based on a Graysmith book. I definitely want to see it and Ione Skye is a plus. I watched that clip but had no idea it was her until watching it again after nohwheregirl's reply. But the gambler in me is inclined to wait until my Hawaiian cruise next month. They might show Zodiac aboard the ship. If not I could wait for the DVD to come out and someone upload it to torrent or P2P. Always looking for an edge. :D

I should have mentioned in the previous post that I think Kathleen Johns' pregnancy and having the baby girl in the car contributed to Zodiac's indecision and wandering. That's a fairly standard opinion but I think it's valid. No way he could have known about either one when he's motioning her to stop.

I'm stumped regarding the misspellings. Thiussat has mentioned that angle a couple of times. Could have been intentional, playing around with authorities and simply part of the puzzle.

Gareth Penn's work on the radian is the most overlooked aspect of the Zodiac case, IMO. Did they ever mention the Mt. Diablo radian in the movie? Probably not, since Penn's findings didn't surface until the early '80s. Zodiac specifically mentioned a radian along with a map highlighting Mt. Diablo, then provided an additional clue in a subsequent letter when seemingly no one paid any attention to his initial reference.

I appreciate the movie reviews. I'm not an ALA guy but that's who you're going to get in a movie based on a Graysmith book. I definitely want to see it and Ione Skye is a plus. I watched that clip but had no idea it was her until watching it again after nohwheregirl's reply. But the gambler in me is inclined to wait until my Hawaiian cruise next month. They might show Zodiac aboard the ship. If not I could wait for the DVD to come out and someone upload it to torrent or P2P. Always looking for an edge

Sounds like a fun trip, Awsi. I have always wanted to go to Hawaii, but, unfortunately, don't have the funds yet.

Just be careful, dude. Don't get too inebriated and fall over the rail. I am sick of seeing UM segments on missing cruise ship passengers. :lol:

Speaking of that, that recent case with that missing man (Smith I think is his name) who was on his honeymoon and was thrown overboard is a bit odd, isn't it? This would be a good case if UM is ever revived. I think one of the Russian dudes made a pass at his wife and a fight ensued.

Sounds like a fun trip, Awsi. I have always wanted to go to Hawaii, but, unfortunately, don't have the funds yet.

Just be careful, dude. Don't get too inebriated and fall over the rail. I am sick of seeing UM segments on missing cruise ship passengers. :lol:

This will be my first trip to Hawaii, finally completing all 50 states. Don't worry, I don't drink. I also apparently won't gamble. The ship is called the Pride of Hawaii and it doesn't look like they have a casino. Two years ago on the Norwegian Star to Alaska I was the only vulture onboard who had a clue about the bonus machines. They had about 20 of them and I was paying for my trip and excursions via the winnings, literally walking up to plays that guys would be shoving people out of the way to get to here in Las Vegas. Unfortunately, I also probably won't be playing golf. I've been checking green fees and they are obscene. Well, maybe a bucket of balls on the range. :lol:

The recently discovered card is from December 1990. If legit, that would be 16 years after the latest confirmed Zodiac communication. A partial image of the outside of the envelope is at this link:

http://zodiackiller.21.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=122

"It's a "Happy Holidays" greeting card, mailed from Eureka California in December 1990. Not sure which day in December. The envelope is red and it's one of those "From your secret pal" cards, similar to the Halloween card Zodiac sent Paul Avery in 1970. One stamp was used. No "Zodiac" name, nor cross-circle symbol.

Inside the card was a xerox of two USPS keys on a keychain. The keys were numbered and a strange object, possibly a penlight, was attached to the keychain. Nothing was written inside the card, only on the envelope."

I just listened to a radio interview with Tom Voight (of zodiackiller.com) from the website where he talks about the card. I had to paste the URL directly into my media player to get it to run.

http://www.zodiackiller.com/kslg.mp3

If it's legit, then it could be huge. I think that it's a BIG IF at this point! I do find it interesting that the card basically surfaced as a result of the release of the Zodiac movie.

Sounds like a fun trip, Awsi. I have always wanted to go to Hawaii, but, unfortunately, don't have the funds yet.

Just be careful, dude. Don't get too inebriated and fall over the rail. I am sick of seeing UM segments on missing cruise ship passengers. :lol:

I forgot to mention I saw Zodiac on my trip. The darn ship didn't even have a theater so those freebie plans were scrapped. But luckily it showed up at a dollar theater on Waikiki Beach a few days before my vacation ended.

IMO, it was a very good movie. I can't remember one of that length, 2.5 hours, where I never looked at my watch and got antsy. It actually seemed to pick up pace as it went along.

The murders were dealt with very early. I was surprised they spent so much time on dubious and irrelevant aspects, like the bogus call to Melvin Belli. But it was 90% about the investigation and the people impacted by it, and not the crimes themselves, so I guess they had to include things that seemed important at the time. I didn't realize they would spend some time on a second suspect, Rick Marshall. The scene with the Graysmith character in the basement and scramming out of the house on a rainy night when he thinks he may be in Zodiac's presence was probably the most chilling of the movie.

I wasn't familiar with Mark Ruffalo. He was phenomenal as investigator Dave Toschi. But I thought Robert Downey predictably overacted his part. I was rooting for his character to depart early. That newsman was different but I've read plenty about this case and Downey took it to a level I've never seen attributed to Avery.

Oh yeah, regarding falling off a ship don't let anyone pretend that can't happen innocently. I took many walks around the perimeter of the ship and found myself sticking closer to the inside wall every time. We had numerous stretches of very high winds, and at one point the ship tilted noticeably. I would have hated to be out on those decks at that point. During a performance I attended in the showroom there was a loud bang and lunge of the ship, prompting the guy doing the magic act to stop his performance and ask, "What was THAT?"

Several times there were notes on the doors leading outside that the outside decks were closed due to high winds. But it was hardly enforced. In fact, that was comical. One side of the ship would have the signs and the other would not. Meanwhile, you could go outside and loop the ship without knowing the other side had warning signs like that.

There may be 2000+ passengers on a trip like that but it's ludicrous to think there has to be a witness. On my first trip around the ship late at night on the first day I was laughing to myself, that if I fell overboard right then and there there's no way in hell anyone would know.

I enjoyed it but I'm kinda glad it bombed. I wish Fincher wouldn't have based his Z movie off of that douche Graysmith.

They should've included the Lake Herman Road murders.

I enjoyed it but I'm kinda glad it bombed. I wish Fincher wouldn't have based his Z movie off of that douche Graysmith.

They should've included the Lake Herman Road murders.

It did bomb, didn't it? Cost something like $85 million to make and grossed in the low 30s last I checked.

Yeah, I was surprised they left out the first confirmed murders. I guess Fincher wanted to be true to history and without a survivor or witness there was too much guesswork and speculation regarding what happened on Lake Herman Road.

Actually, it's remarkable we know as much as we do. If he kills Mageau and Hartnell and the kids don't look out of the window in San Francisco, every scene is mostly guesswork. For instance, we would have no clue he wore the hood at Lake Berryessa. I wonder how Zodiac would have dealt with that, wearing his signature costume and no one to elevate it to legend?

SiberianKiss, I read Hartnell's early account of the dialogue at Lake Berryessa. It was a hoot, for such a tragic event. Hartnell was sarcastic and disagreeable with Zodiac. Check out this link. "B" is supposedly what Hartnell said just before the stabbings, and "A" is Zodiac:

http://www.zodiackiller.com/LBReport27.html

Oh yeah, if you want another wimp for your wikipedia entry, use Ronald Fong. He's the guy who came upon Hartnell and Shepard at Lake Berryessa while he was in his boat with his son, but was too scared to come ashore and admitted he sat in his boat for 10-15 minutes before deciding their screams and claims were legit. He then rowed two miles to contact someone. Cecilia died two days later from blood loss and shock, so that extra 10-15 minutes was potentially vital. BTW, a Ronald Fong with the exact middle initial and birth year (1930) is still listed living in San Francisco, if you check Zabasearch.

hahahahahaa yeah good points. was pretty funny account Hartnell gave. He must've been all doped up on morphine and other painkillers. That interview was right after when he was in the hospital right?


Oh yeah, if you want another wimp for your wikipedia entry, use Ronald Fong. He's the guy who came upon Hartnell and Shepard at Lake Berryessa while he was in his boat with his son, but was too scared to come ashore and admitted he sat in his boat for 10-15 minutes before deciding their screams and claims were legit. He then rowed two miles to contact someone. Cecilia died two days later from blood loss and shock, so that extra 10-15 minutes was potentially vital. BTW, a Ronald Fong with the exact middle initial and birth year (1930) is still listed living in San Francisco, if you check Zabasearch.


HHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHA great point! I'll have to credit you on my wimpiness scale for my wikipedia entry. Seriously, did that fool think all the blood was staged? And yes that probably had a damning effect on poor Cecilia. 15 minutes perhaps would've helped her a great deal in her battle for survival, IDIOT. This is worse than Mageau. At least Mageau had a few stingers. What did that idiot Fong in the boat have to worry about? Think about it, why couldn't he just go for help right away. What was the point of sitting in the lake doing nothing and watching if he wasn't gonna eventually go on shore to help?

Ronald Fong should be held liable for Cecelia's death.

Yep, that interview was in the hospital. Ha! Great point about the morphine and pain killers. I didn't think of that. I can picture a doped up college kid giving a glossy portrayal, no doubt subconsciously.

I still wish Anderson Cooper had quizzed Hartnell more thoroughly and specifically during the interview prior to the Zodiac movie being released.

When I read the police report and Hartnell said the boat waited 15 minutes before leaving for help, I assumed it was absurd exaggeration brought upon by shock and pain. I thought it was probably more like 5 minutes. But when you read Fong's version later in the police report, he comes up with the same 10-15 minute estimate. Unreal.

They should've included the Lake Herman Road murders.

I read tonight they shot that Lake Herman Road scene and it was included in the long version of the movie, but cut out of the theatrical release for time purposes.

Just an FYI: Fincher's Zodiac (based on the Graysmith book) is now on Netflix streaming! Guess what I'm watching tonight...

I've read the book since I watched the movie and wasn't that impressed, really. The movie is much better and has since developed kind of a cult following (how could it not?). Of course, we know it's not ALA, so the movie is anti-climactic, but that's real life.