I know this has been discussed jillions of times, but after watching the trilogy again last night I have to pose this question/thought again:

How many times did Maddie sleep with Sam? Really, after rewatching the episodes, it seems to me that they only slept together once that night after the restaurant fiasco. I really don't believe that they slept together the first night (just doesn't seem like a Maddie type thing to do) and I don't think it happened after that because then she was out with David for their late night escapades. After that, the tension and fighting started to build and it just didn't seem like it happened at that point either. Also, how long do you think Sam was around? I always got the impression that it was for a weekend, or long weekend....did anyone think it was longer...a week perhaps? Even still, Maddie and David were together within days of when she was with Sam so how could she be so sure the father was Sam? We were given the impression that Maddie and David were having a physical relationship for at least a month to six weeks after that (boy would it have been nice to have seen some of that action!). I know it only takes one time, but really the odds are in David's favor. I'm saying all this knowing that David really was the father, my question really is more to how Maddie could have been so sure in her mind that Sam was. AND how David could have been convinced of it as well and not question it further.

Comments?

I usually just watch and enjoy and don't analyse too much. But, yes what you are saying makes some sense. I think the confusion is only in Maddie's head because she doesn't want to know. That is my very half hearted attempt at analysis

How many times did Maddie sleep with Sam? Really, after rewatching the episodes, it seems to me that they only slept together once that night after the restaurant fiasco. I really don't believe that they slept together the first night (just doesn't seem like a Maddie type thing to do) and I don't think it happened after that because then she was out with David for their late night escapades. After that, the tension and fighting started to build and it just didn't seem like it happened at that point either. Also, how long do you think Sam was around? I always got the impression that it was for a weekend, or long weekend....did anyone think it was longer...a week perhaps? Even still, Maddie and David were together within days of when she was with Sam so how could she be so sure the father was Sam? We were given the impression that Maddie and David were having a physical relationship for at least a month to six weeks after that (boy would it have been nice to have seen some of that action!). I know it only takes one time, but really the odds are in David's favor. I'm saying all this knowing that David really was the father, my question really is more to how Maddie could have been so sure in her mind that Sam was. AND how David could have been convinced of it as well and not question it further.

This again?

No matter how many times people come back to this, it seems they only want David to be the father. Point blank. They can never face up to the fact that Maddie had a life outside of her interaction with David, that other people were important to her and that she might do things that don't have anything to do with him.

It is entirely possible that Sam was the father. Here's how, and if you pay close attention to the show, and don't think of what you wish the plot would be, you'd see this too:

When she met Sam that first night, she obviously had gone off her birth control because she hadn't had a boyfriend in ages. So she wouldn't be prepared for it and wouldn't have any protection.

And you know what happens then.

(Also, notice how people get so all-fired torqued that Maddie did not 'prepare' for her surprise meeting and night with Sam, but they say nothing about how Sam himself was apparently equally unprepared, as was David a few days later? Why is this only the woman's responsibility? Boys can be boys, but women have to be perfect. Please.)

Why are people so convinced she could not have been with Sam on the first night?

She's an adult, and so is he, and what's wrong with that?

I think this is another case of people just not liking the idea, because they wanted her to be with David and nobody else. People never come up with any technical reasons or proof that it could not be true. It's just an inner revulsion.

However, by the middle of the week, when Maddie was more used to the idea of Sam being in town, she might have run off to the drugstore to get what she needed, and been able to say that any time she was with Sam after that, as well as the nights she was with David, she had something to use, hence she would not believe later on that David had gotten her pregnant.

Here is a very simple explanation as to her confusion of the potential fatherhood issue.

On the first night Sam was there, Maddie didn't have any means of protection. Later on, she did, but it failed.

There. No mystery, no contradictions, just bad luck.

You could almost laugh if it weren't such a punch in the gut.

When you add to this the medical fact that fertilization takes up to three days to take place, and it is not in fact instantaneous, you can clearly see that since Maddie was literally with Sam on one night and David the next, there is definite reason to be confused.

Why is it so all-fired difficult to think that the very first night Sam showed up, Maddie would have wanted to be with him?

He was the love of her life up until that point. According to the story, he was her boyfriend for a number of years around the years they went to college and the years afterward. Then he shows up by means that were never made quite clear to us viewers (he's just at her house in that scene; we never see the actual time they bumped into each other, and Maddie's explanation the next day holds absolutely no water with me). I don't know about you, but if a man I once loved and hadn't seen in years suddenly bumped into me one night, I'd be plenty emotionally effected.

Why is it assumed Maddie has to be this sacred person without a love life? Can we stop thinking this is "kind of icky" about her?

Notice, nobody says anything bad about Sam or David for that. Just Maddie.

Sam is not just some person she met for the first time ever that night and took home because she was really drunk. She had known him for thirty years.

Odds, schmods. 'Odds' do not exist. Parenthood takes exactly one cell from each person.

There are people out there who try and try and try to have a baby, but they do not succeed, and have to go to a clinic. So the number of times people can be together has zero to do with who makes someone pregnant.

If you think about the story, it makes more sense for Sam to have been the father, because when Maddie lost the baby, it would be a symbolic destruction of his presence.

Really, I don't know how the poor woman didn't shoot herself while all this was going on. Then again, they like David, because he's a man, and he's cute. David can literally sleep with a total stranger and repeatedly drive Maddie's car into a wall, for ******'s sake, but they don't see why she wouldn't want to be with him!

Hell, I know I would have taken a gun to my head at some point during all this, but she didn't.

Yet people feel sorry for David, because he's a man and he's cute.

Go figure.

I think the confusion is only in Maddie's head because she doesn't want to know. That is my very half hearted attempt at analysis

:rolleyes:

This is JMHO : I believe that the paternity issue was made known in the episdoe AWWAV. BW plays baby Hayes and is shown pictures of his parents: Maddie and David. If it was Sam's baby i believe that would have been addressed. And we would have been shown pictures of Maddie and Sam and the baby wouldn't have looked like David meaning BW wouldn't have been dressed as a baby. I believe Maddie was unsure who the baby's father was. She does mention to Walter on the train about sonagrams and calendars and David being in the right place at the wrong time. So who knows if she really knew who the father was. This is just my belief on my interpretation of the show's story on this. Everyone else can have their own interpretation. I hope that GGC is really doing the commentary on AWWAV and addresses this paternity issue if we are lucky.

Father also means the person who is going to raise the baby.

Although neon000 has made all valid points, the fact still remains that in the end Glenn made it crystal clear that David was in fact the father by having Bruce/David portray Baby Hayes plus as the icing on the cake we have `Jerome` confirm this in his little speech to Baby Hayes about his parents. If anyone else out there has any doubts there is an interview over on DavidandMaddie.com with Glenn in which he is asked about the parentage and ( this is from the horse`s mouth ) he said himself that the reason we see Bruce/David as Baby Hayes was so we would then know that David really was the father .
Go look for yourselves . so by reading that interview there is no doubt what so ever
David was the father.!

But hell at the end of the day it was a TV show so nothing was as it seemed and up untill A Womb.... i don`t think even Glenn much less the other writers had really decided on which way to go with it and that`s why there was so much inconsitency around this whole paternity issue.
But hey everyone has the right to free speech! So i won`t be too harsh on neon000.http://www.moonlighting21.com/issue3/ggc_interview_pt3.pdf. Just to push the point home feel free to click on this link to read in another interview done by Glenn confirming who actually was the father.

That interview was not available to us at the time of the original airing of the show, now, was it? So how fair are you?

No i know that but i`m just replying to the above post that you made thats all. I was only trying to be helpfull by clearing this issue up once and forall.
Don`t be angry with me !:confused: :wave:
Ok i`ll retract the word harsh ... wrong choice of words. perhaps? It`s probably my dry british humour! It was mean`t as a jest.

After reading what you said in your PM to me just now, you not only contradict yourself, but you have some nerve. Out of respect for you, which you have not shown for me, I will not copy and paste what you said in the PM. However, you apparently think it is okay to lose your temper *there* and get all hot under the collar, but you act all friendly and apologetic here in front of everybody else?

What am I supposed to think? Who are you, really?

Notice there were zero personal comments by me against anyone in my initial post. Everything I said was in general, in reaction to things that people usually say about this plot point. I called no one by name.

Everything I said was an abstract point about the show in general. But *you* had to take it somewhere else.

This is ridiculous.

I don't care if anyone agrees with me. I really don't. For what it's worth, I work in a medical lab and we see a zillion pregnancy tests a day. But that's beside the point.

It was ultimately just a personal opinion about a ******* tv show.

I am no longer a member of that other board. Also, how the hell am I supposed to check interviews and keep notes on them and bring copies when I try to state a personal opinion somewhere else? What is this, a PhD dissertation? Traffic court? Hello? I don't cross-reference opinion posts on a message board, thank you.

The fact that you had to take it to a personal level is absurd. I won't put up with this double standard anymore.

Goodbye.

Oh for petes sake,
how could anything i wrote be deemed as getting personal and taking it `somewhere else` that`s just silly,you post you p.o.v and then i post mine and if we differ so what ,it`s all fun and games thats all.And besides i posted the friendly reply before i`d read your ranting in the p m`s, stupid me i thought that we were all mature adults and i was trying to be diplomatic.If it makes you feel any better i`ll change the caps ok.!!
I won`t be losing any sleep over it. And do you have to keep using swear words , it isn`t very nice .

Bye neon000:wave:

Thanks Laura for the link to that article. I probably read it awhile ago but i guess i forgot about it. I think that Glenn sure cleared that up well! Thanks again!

Sorry to keep harping on about this topic but it`s really annoyed me the way neon000 has brought her personal points over on to here. I think it`s very rude to slate people in full public view and just because she doesn`t use names it doesn`t mean that she hasn`t got personal before( what about pasting individual members comments ) isn`t that kinda personal?She keeps saying how some people are`nt very nice but it`s her that`s using all the swear words.
I hope no one else feels this way but if anyone else does feel the same way about me as neon000 please speak up . i won`t mind . Iv`e always thought that i was fair and honest and showed a common courtesy to all you guys out there.

All I can say, is that I never doubted the baby's paternity. I always thought it was David's.

I know I did all the analysis years ago, and I am sure I don't remember the hundreds of reasons that I used to come to that conclusion.

I just remember one reason, and it's the one I hold on to......I have always felt that Maddie lied to David. I think she had a better idea of who was the father than she let on, and she lied. My opinion started with "Tracks", and just crystallized when David asks again, and she denies his paternity, but won't meet his eyes.

But would our Maddie lie? Hell, yes, especially if it takes her off the hook of any controversy or emotional upheaval.

My source? My gut......sorry, that's all I have!

Just wanted to say AMEN to Diane! :)

I've tried to figure this out for years. But after listening to the Season 4 commentaries, I realize that even the writers are still struggling to explain it. :confused:

This again, indeed! The baby was David's. "Womb" shows that fact as clearly as a TV show can. GGC said it. It is so. I find expressing "opinions" on the subject odd, since this was not a TV show that lived in a factual netherworld where up is down, the sky turns purple and the island vibrates. (If you want that visit the LOST forum, those people are CRAZY! :crazy:)

The debatable questions here are when it happened? Did Maddie really think otherwise? And if so, why?

I think behaving as though your fellow posters are attacking Maddie when the question of paternity (a well-settled question, I might add) is even broached is unreasonable. I didn't even see anyone attacking Maddie! Secondly, we are probably all women here. We get how pregnancy works... thanks. We get that sleeping with an old, unrequited love on a whim doesn't make Maddie a whore. However, knowing all of that... does not make the baby Sam's and does not, neon000 make your condescention okay, whether it is directed at any one person or not.

I have enjoyed your posts here and on ther other board immensely, which is why I've been loath to say anything confrontational in the past. You are full of p*** and vinegar, and I, for one, think that is GREAT! (Though I'm honestly not sure if that well-intentioned compliment will offend you, too.) However, when another poster can't even ask a few simple questions without getting spanked, maybe it is time for you to take your dolly and go home.

The baby was and always will be David's. Baby David is clearly shown in A Womb With A View.

I think Maddie always knew whose baby it was.

Do you think that straight-as-an-arrow, perfect to a T, Eagle Boy Scout astronaut Sam would have unprotected sex?

Let's see if we all can remember which beloved characters had unprotected sex always and often! :lol:

Let's see - was it Maddie and David?:D :wave:

In order to deal with problems with the real life pregnancy, the writers during season 4 had to come up with something. So they made Maddie confused. She wasn't confused. She ran home so that she could avoid dealing with the issue - that she was pregnant with David's baby, and she thought that David would be irresponsible.

Just my opinion - hit me baby once more time!:crazy:

Let's see if we all can remember which beloved characters had unprotected sex always and often! :lol:

Let's see - was it Maddie and David?:D :wave:

:lol: :lol: :lol: That`s so funny! . Personally even if we didn`t have confirmation from Glenn himself or Bruce portraying Baby Hayes i think the writers were laying the tracks for David being the father even before Maddie knew she was pregnant. Take for example the little chat that David and Maddie have about birth control in To Heiress.... now why would the writers have David mention that he hadn`t used a condom during their little agenda`s unless it was instrumental to Maddies pregnancy. another example is in Tracks.... again why would the writers put all these marker dates in the dialogue , ( Maddie saying exactly how far along she was and then David correcting Maddie on exactly how long Maddie had been in Chicago. ) I say that they did all of this so we would figure it out ourselves and come to the right conclusion.
Because of all these clues it really frustrates me that after all the ground work that the writers had laid out for us , they then have Maddie tell David that he isnot the baby`s father!.My theory is that there were two groups of writers working on this storyline (one that had David as the father and the other that had Sam as the father and they both got the storylines intermingled.)

"I think the writers were laying the tracks for David being the father even before Maddie knew she was pregnant. Take for example the little chat that David and Maddie have about birth control in To Heiress.... now why would the writers have David mention that he hadn`t used a condom unless it was instrumental to Maddies pregnancy."

Exactly! That scene was so telling (and fantastic!!! - one of my all time Moonlighting favorite scenes).

My feeling is that David is the father. Like Diane, I am going with my gut instinct. That said, I am also thinking from the writers point of view. I don't think even they knew who the father was until Glen wrote WOMB. I think it was intentional for the audience to be confused becasue that way the writers were offered an out either way. Sam or Davids? The truth is you could make a case for either man to be the father. In my opinion it was intended that way.

I think you're right. My problem with the writing is how adamant Maddie is that it's Sam's. If she didn't know, I could accept that, but I think they wrote her lines very badly in Season 4 . I also always believed it was David's even before WOMB because I think when Sam showed up and wanted to rekindle things with Maddie, he's the kind of guy who would have come prepared. David, on the other hand, expected Sam there that night and didn't exactly plan for that night. But he wasn't going to turn it down once things started to happen!!

I agree that Maddie probably knew who the father was, but didn't really want to face the fact. I do remember her in Tracks dreaming about David becoming a father and then turning into an apple pie-no passion kinda guy. She was initially confused and dazed, and then seemed to make a decision that it couldn't have been David's no matter what.

I agree with adyjdy and Laura and Kis....

:wave:

Mul

Hi, folks! :wave: I just found this site a couple days ago. I'm "maddieaddisonjr" on the davidandmaddie.com site.

Well, my take on the paternity question is this: In "Tracks" Maddie tells the staff that she's just under five months. She has been gone, as David makes clear in the same episode, for four and a half months.. David told Mr. Hayes in "Father Knows Last" that he and Maddie had been together for a month or three weeks - I forget which - before she went to Chicago. There's no way David could not be the father and it makes no sense to have Maddie be confused about it when she herself knows what happened and when. She doesn't need an obstetrician to confirm it. So if the idea is that she was lying for the reasons she gave to Agnes in "Eek A Spouse!" it still doesn't speak well for the way the character is now being written and I do like Maddie even though I've been critical of some of her behavior at the very end of season three and throughout season four.