Greetings,

I am wondering about a case I saw a long time ago, I'm pretty sure it was on UM where this guy named Ralph was being held in a motel room by agents of some sort. His last famous words to his wife were, "I'm dying, I never lied."

Then they killed him.

Any thoughts on that case and have their been any updates?

I think the guy's name was Ralph.

Cheers:)

This is the case of Ralph Sigler which is another case that has been missing from Lifetime's rotation (see "Group question" thread)

Ralph Sigler apparently worked for the US government in the 1960s during The Cold War. It is believed by some people that our government used Sigler as a liaison to infiltrate the KGB. He was found dead in his hotel room in what was ruled a suicide by electrocution. Prior to dying he made an urgent phone call like the one you described I believe to not his wife, but to a contact of some sort (could be wrong on this)

Sigler’s family believes he was murdered but nobody is sure by whom. If Sigler was in fact working for the US government it is possible his cover was blown and he was executed by the KGB. However, there is also the theory that Sigler might have been a double agent of some sort and was eliminated by our government because of that.

Thank you so much.....now it's all clear to me, so he WAS apparently working for the government?.........interesting

There is also a book that outlines his story and three others. It looks very interesting and is titled "WIDOWS - 4 American Spies, the wives they Left Behind, and the KGB's Crippling of AMERICAN INTELLIGENCE". Here is a little about the Ralph Sigler portion of the book:

"Widows" reaches a stunning climax with the harrowing tale of Ralph Joseph Sigler, the FBI and Army intelligence's premier double agent for a decade. Things suddenly began to go terribly wrong, and Sigler was found dead in a Maryland hotel room. He had been electrocuted. Although the FBI called it suicide, it wasn't. "Widows" reveals how Sigler, code-named Graphic Image, really died -- and why. A full portrait of the behind-the-scenes battles that destroyed careers and derailed much of Western intelligence, this is an important, facinating, and disturbing book.

I don't remember the line, but I could swear I've seen a case on Lifetime about a man named Ralph Sigler. Are you sure Lifetime never showed this one?

Yes it has been shown on Lifetime although I'm not sure how often.

Wow. They just showed this on spike. It's the first I ever remember hearing about it.

The first thing I noticed was the claim that he suicided, but his body was bruised and beaten, with broken teeth, scraped knuckles, and a broken nose. Seems like a weird way to kill yourself.

The second thing I noticed was that the method of carrying out the suicide was supposed to have been electrocution with a 110 lamp cord in a motel room. WTH? Is that the official coroner's ruling?

I've been zapped with 110 household current a few times. One time, I was applying wet wallpaper and the gooey paste got onto the outlet contacts and travelled up my wet arm. It was very unpleasant, but not burning and painful.

How the heck long would it take for someone to die from that kind of exposure? Seems like it would take long enough to induce noise and/or screaming, which would bring nosey people to find out what's going on. And depending on how updated the building's electrical work was, would have blown out the fuse or blown a circuit breaker.

It looks more like this guy was murdered elsewhere and was dumped back at the motel in a staged suicide scene. I wonder how he was able to call his wife with those last words. It's all very odd.

I don't know much about electricity but didn't he have one hand in a glass of water when he plugged in that lamp? I've heard of people being killed when taking a bath and an electrical appliance (plugged in) falls into the tub full of water. Not sure if the same kind of thing applies here.

It certainly is an oddball way to commit suicide.

Yep, they showed him holding a glass of water, and then in theatrical style, the "jolt" of electricity knocked him and his chair over, which threw the glass of water out of his hand.

But from personal experience, having a dripping wet arm and two dripping wet hands holding up an 8 foot long strip of sopping wet wallpaper backed with wet paste, and a huge glob of that paste landing on the exposed wires of the outlet, (no face plate on it) it doesn't have the force to make a big dramatic scene like that.

I sure would love to have some real knowledge of what that kind of electricity can actually do in the type of situation where it's claimed to have been used in this supposed suicide.

I sure would love to have some real knowledge of what that kind of electricity can actually do in the type of situation where it's claimed to have been used in this supposed suicide.

LOL...not planning on creating your own Unsolved Mystery I hope! :)

LOL @ my own real unsolved mystery!

After getting the weird tinglies I had from that 110 contact, electrocution does not seem like a pleasant way to go. If I have a choice, I'd rather snooze my way out.

Too bad my daughter just broke up with that electrician she was dating. I could have asked him a bunch of really awkward questions about how standard household electricity could be successfully manipulated to cause death. (Like he didn't already think I was creepy....)

Not sure if it matters for the death scenario but I think household current is actually 120 VAC. Some outlets are 220. That would be for your washer/dryer, things of that nature. It's different in other countries though. Although he died in the US so we're still talking about American standards.

I too have been electrocuted by household current (it doesn't feel nice), but obviously lived to tell the tale.

Assuming he was murdered, one would assume that the killers would stage the suicide in a way that was realistic and could actually cause death. Otherwise, what's the point?

You know Justin, that's got me to thinking about hotel/motel air conditioner -heater units.

All of the motels I've stayed in and some of the hotels I've stayed in have heater/air conditioners with the standard 220 line exposed to the room, like an electric dryer line looking plug.

I'm sure if I wanted to dig around, and make a mess, I could find the 220 that's hardwired to some some hotel room a/c units. (Or maybe they're just plug ins, too, but they're hidden away more neatly than the motels? I never thought about it.)

If Ralph Sigler was smart enough to be a double/triple agent, why was he tinkering around with a glass of water and a lamp? Why not strip the insulation off the A/C lines, wrap up in them, and plug in? No need for the water glass (which seems unneccessary anyway) and I think has a much better chance of success than the teeny lamp wire.

I don't think I've seen this segment. What group of stories does it appear with on Spike's UM?

http://elpasotimes.typepad.com/.services/blog/6a00d83451c9c869e200e551fdde0b8834/search?filter.q=ralph+sigler

A collection of archived articles about Ralph Sigler from the El Paso Times I found today. There's an article about the UM segment filming on the bottom of the page. Had no idea Ralph Sigler was a warrant officer, but I guess that makes sense.

I think I remember watching that episode when I was young. The secret service (or whatever he worked for) claimed) they had nothing to do about it.

My thoughts now think he likely found something out and was gonna go public with it.

The segment I've seen made no bones about the fact that Sigler was a double agent. His superior actually said he was the best they had for the decade that he was. The issue was whether or not he actually did give classified information to the KGB (he was supposed to only give them "dummy" intelligence). He failed several polygraphs, indicating that he did in fact give information to the KGB. Which makes this, IMO, most likely a suicide.

The segment I've seen made no bones about the fact that Sigler was a double agent. His superior actually said he was the best they had for the decade that he was. The issue was whether or not he actually did give classified information to the KGB (he was supposed to only give them "dummy" intelligence). He failed several polygraphs, indicating that he did in fact give information to the KGB. Which makes this, IMO, most likely a suicide.

I could see it going all ways myself. Polygraphs measure stress, not necessarily whether someone's lying. If Ralph believed he may have inadvertently leaked intel to the Soviets--even if he didn't--his polygraph would probably reflect stress. Intel is an extremely stressful line of work to be in, especially at the highest classification levels. There are SO many ways to mess up, miss something, forget a protocol. Even the best make a mistake every now and then.
All he had to do was BELIEVE he made a mistake in order to fail that test.

Supervisors and superiors in that field don't tend to be forgiving of error, and in most cases I think that's warranted. But I do believe it is a possibility that Ralph was assassinated by someone in the U.S. community (most likely in a non-official capacity), and that assassination was intentionally staged to look like a killing by the Soviets or a suicide. I also believe it is equally as likely he was, in fact, murdered by the opposing side or that he indeed committed suicide. All circumstances of the case make any of those three scenarios likely in my opinion.

justins5256 brought up a good point earlier. If Sigler was in fact murdered, why such an elaborate "suicide mock up" that doesn't even make any sense? Why not just hang him, or shoot him in the head? Stacking up the chairs to make it seem like an electrocution suicide make no sense, IMO.

The segment also brought up that Sigler was going to be given immunity no matter what by the government, so I don't see how or why anyone would want him dead on th U.S. side. Especially if they never found out just what information he could have leaked.

justins5256 brought up a good point earlier. If Sigler was in fact murdered, why such an elaborate "suicide mock up" that doesn't even make any sense? Why not just hang him, or shoot him in the head? Stacking up the chairs to make it seem like an electrocution suicide make no sense, IMO.

The segment also brought up that Sigler was going to be given immunity no matter what by the government, so I don't see how or why anyone would want him dead on th U.S. side. Especially if they never found out just what information he could have leaked.
I think the external injuries casts doubt on the electrocution theory. Not to mention, it seems like one of the most ridiculous, elaborate ways for one to kill themself. My question is if there was an autopsy and if it determined 100% that he died from electrocution as the scene indicated or if he actually was beaten to death. I think if he was offed, it would have been by the other side, not the U.S. .

justins5256 brought up a good point earlier. If Sigler was in fact murdered, why such an elaborate "suicide mock up" that doesn't even make any sense? Why not just hang him, or shoot him in the head? Stacking up the chairs to make it seem like an electrocution suicide make no sense, IMO.

The segment also brought up that Sigler was going to be given immunity no matter what by the government, so I don't see how or why anyone would want him dead on th U.S. side. Especially if they never found out just what information he could have leaked.

I think that's a valid point. I don't think the U.S. itself would off Sigler in that manner at all. As you both have pointed out, it doesn't make sense, really, and it's rather public. I think it is possible, however, that someone working for the U.S. could have murdered him, not working in any official capacity or under any orders.

I think the external injuries casts doubt on the electrocution theory. Not to mention, it seems like one of the most ridiculous, elaborate ways for one to kill themself. My question is if there was an autopsy and if it determined 100% that he died from electrocution as the scene indicated or if he actually was beaten to death. I think if he was offed, it would have been by the other side, not the U.S. .

Knowing UM witholding information to pad their segments, my gut instinct tells me that the autopsy concluded death by electrocution and made no mention of other injuries. The investigating officer for the MD State Police said there were no such signs of the external injuries his family was reporting.

I just realized that I work 5 minutes away from the hotel where Sigler was found dead.

I just realized that I work 5 minutes away from the hotel where Sigler was found dead.

I'll alert the media

Have you two finished building the bunkbeds for your room? It'll give you so much more room for activities!

Have you two finished building the bunkbeds for your room? It'll give you so much more room for activities!

I'm getting a strong Beavis & Butthead vibe

I'm getting a strong Beavis & Butthead vibe

Nah. They're Dale and Brennan from Stepbrothers. They don't know it yet, but they're going to be besties. :)

I'll alert the media

Hey, it'll give you something to do since that investigative work seems to have slowed down to a slow crawl.

I'm getting a strong Beavis & Butthead vibe

I think the same thing every time I see you bump the Casie Nicole thread.

I think the same thing every time I see you bump the Casie Nicole thread.

I also think the same thing whenever I see your AVI, or your posts in the Tim Mcclure thread. Lol.

Also the Kurt Mcfall thread.

Lol.

Also the Casie Nicole thread for thinking a fat dude can swim like 8 hours straight

Way to go Beavis.

I also think the same thing whenever I see your AVI, or your posts in the Tim Mcclure thread. Lol.

Also the Kurt Mcfall thread.

Lol.

Also the Casie Nicole thread for thinking a fat dude can swim like 8 hours straight

Way to go Beavis.

I'm rubber and you're glue.

I'm rubber and you're glue.
:p :p ;)

I found this (https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1977/02/08/an-agents-suicide/24147cde-632c-4d11-97e2-f0517315db42/?utm_term=.2f45fa3963b6) Washington Post article about Sigler's death which was written in 1977. Some highlights:

Mrs. Sigler believes that her husband's death may fit into a pattern of deaths of American intelligence agents beginning in 1975, but extensive checking by the The Washington Post with authorities here and in Washington disclosed no connection between her husband's death and anyone else's. In some cases, there was no official record of deaths Mrs. Sigler had alluded to.

Sources in Washington close to the CIA said they think any U.S. government complicity in Sigler's grisly death is "highly improbable."

According to Grimes. Sigler had a "loose tongue" when drinking and U.S. agents learned that the Russians had gotten Sigler drunk. Sigler was told during his Ft. Meade questioning, according to this version, that he would never again be able to function as an agent - a factor that might have driven him toward suicide, in the Army's account to Diamond.

According to investigators, Sigler left this note in his hotel room written in longhand on hotel stationery:

"1. I don't know what I'm guilty of.

2. Then why the positive response?

3. Acting?

4. Lying?

5. Don't know the difference?"

6. Too bad!

I've given up all hope. I wish I knew. I wish I knew. I tried too hard. I'm dead."

I haven't seen the segment in a long time and plan on watching it later, so I'm not sure if it mentions the suicide note or not, but I thought that was interesting.

I found this (https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1977/02/08/an-agents-suicide/24147cde-632c-4d11-97e2-f0517315db42/?utm_term=.2f45fa3963b6) Washington Post article about Sigler's death which was written in 1977. Some highlights:

I haven't seen the segment in a long time and plan on watching it later, so I'm not sure if it mentions the suicide note or not, but I thought that was interesting.

That's interesting. I wonder why UM didn't mention the note?

I found a very lengthy article, but I can't link to it because it's a paid subscription, and it's too long for me to screenshot. Anyway, it had several details left out of the UM segment:

-Sigler was an immigrant from Czechoslovakia.

-A Soviet defector named Nicholas Shadrin, who was described as "one of Sigler's counter-intelligence colleagues", had left the Soviet Union and moved to the US in the 60's. In 1966, Shadrin grew tired of the US, and was desperately seeking to get US security clearance. Due to his past as a Soviet citizen, he was denied time and time again. The FBI came calling and had asked Shadrin to identify Soviet agents and to contact them on the FBI's behalf, so Shadrin did it in an effort to win the US government over. He never got the clearance he wanted, so he grew tired of the US yet again and wanted to leave and go to Sweden in 1974. When he sought help to leave the US, the FBI & CIA told him that there was one final mission for him, which was to go to Vienna and meet Soviet agents there. Shadrin jumped at the chance, and his wife went with him to enjoy the skiing in Austria. Just 2 hours after checking into the hotel in Vienna to meet up with his soviet contact, Shadrin disappeared and was never seen again. The only connection between Sigler and Shadrin referenced in the article was that both men had went to Vienna to meet Soviet contacts. The only thing is that Sigler went a year earlier, and wasn't threatened or harmed in any way (and also had his wife with him), and he returned home safe.

-The failed polygraph in San Francisco referenced in the segment was somewhat untrue. Sigler went to San Francisco for a routine polygraph, and failed. Since he had an impeccable record, those administering the test thought something went wrong with the machine, so they gave it to him again, and he failed. They still couldn't believe it, so they gave him the test a 3rd time and he failed again. Sigler had no explanation, so they told him to go home and think about what was bothering him and that they would give him more tests a week later at Ft. Meade, MD.

-In Ft. Meade, Sigler failed 3 more tests. He admitted that he broke a rule about keeping operational notes at his house. Evidently, Sigler kept a detailed journal, and planned on using his notes to one day write a book about his career as a double agent. Sigler was told to call his wife and let her know that an agent would be by their house to retrieve the notes, which then happened. The government told Sigler that had he cooperated and told the truth to them about everything, "the situation could be salvaged."

-The next day after the failed polygraphs in Ft. Meade, one of his interrogators took Sigler out drinking for 6 hours and tried to get him to loosen up and admit why he kept failing the tests. Sigler told him that he was confident that he would be able to pass another test. 2 days later, he took 3 more tests and failed those as well. At this point, they decided to try hostile interrogation to get out of Sigler why he kept failing. During the interrogation they uncovered that a KGB agent had been making payments to Sigler's mother in Czechoslovakia, which Sigler never informed the army about. Sigler called his daughter shortly after the interrogation and was described as sounded "defeated", and that he had asked her what she was going to do with her life before the phone went dead. Sigler then called his wife (as shown in the segment), and said "I'm dying, the army killed me."

-Sigler's wife received a letter (after Sigler was found dead) written by him 3 days before he died and it said:

Dear Ilse:

Should anything happen to me, suicide, death, or accident, sue the US Army for being the cause, naming specifically the following as defendants:

Maj. Gen. CJ Le Van
Maj. Gen. Aaron
Col. Grimes
Maj. Noel Jones
CW4 Shaffenstall
CW4 Zapata
Francis J. Prasek, FBI

In addition, request all papers picked up by John Shaffenstall on 9 April, 1976 be returned to you. Love, Ralph

PS - Get a respectable lawyer. Your boss should be able to recommend a good one. If nothing happens to me and I return, give this back to me.

-2 autopsies were performed. The MD State Medical Examiner concluded suicide, but the one done by the Walter Reed Medical Center determined that Sigler was "severely beaten before electrocution". There was also a ton of alcohol found in Sigler's body, enough to make the pathologist note that "his motor function was so impaired he could not carry out the scheme police described to kill himself."

-The head of army intelligence, Maj. Gen. Harold Aaron had written a secret memo after Sigler's death summing up what happened, and it said in part:

Unexpectedly, Sigler indicated deception in major areas of information provided to US intelligence, included unreported contacts with the KGB, failure to report KGB tasking, and passing unauthorized information to the Soviets. Confronted with the deceptive responses, Sigler denied loyalty to the Soviets but made admissions concerning false reporting of money paid him by the Soviets and reported falsely concerning a US Army member he had recommended to the KGB as a recruitment target.

It is believed that Sigler finally realized that whatever it was he was withholding would eventually come out and for reasons known only to him, he chose to kill himself rather than allow this to happen...at no time was any pressure applied to Sigler nor was he threatened in any way. He was told repeatedly that we could live and worth with anything he had said or done, so long as we knew the true facts."

That same week, the same guy who wrote the memo, recommended (glowingly, which was odd) that Sigler be awarded the Legion of Merit.

-And one thing not mentioned in the article but mentioned in the UM segment was that Sigler's hotel room was double locked from the inside. If that's true, I don't see how this could be anything other than a man who killed himself because he feared he was going to be viewed as a traitor.

Either I completely forgot or I just did not know that he was from Czechoslovakia. Interesting....

This case is par for the course for American intelligence back during the cold war. Here was a guy, part of Army Intelligence. He was such a good asset that the FBI wanted him. You had the CIA, FBI and military intelligence all fighting for talent during this period. They rarely cooperated and it led to the death of many a US asset. The death of Mr. Sigler was due to the intelligence communities incompetence. There are many more deaths like his that happened here in this country and many more overseas. The damage that Hanson and Ames did alone will never be fully told by the US government. And we know about those guys. Imagine the ones they caught before it hit the press. The lord bless us and save us

Either I completely forgot or I just did not know that he was from Czechoslovakia. Interesting....

I don't think they mention it in the segment at all, from what I remember.

I don't think they mention it in the segment at all, from what I remember.
That would be a big thing to mention. That would effect the credibility of the segment. Was he a citizen or a resident alien or citizen?

That would be a big thing to mention. That would effect the credibility of the segment. Was he a citizen or a resident alien or citizen?

He came over to the US as a kid, so he eventually became a citizen. But it does slightly bolster the credibility of the theory of him becoming a traitor when you tie it in with the KGB giving his mother money to live off of (his mother stayed in Czechoslovakia).

He came over to the US as a kid, so he eventually became a citizen. But it does slightly bolster the credibility of the theory of him becoming a traitor when you tie it in with the KGB giving his mother money to live off of (his mother stayed in Czechoslovakia).
No doubt.

It's funny how much of this wasn't mentioned in the UM story... So he was from Czechoslovakia, huh? Interesting.

It's entirely possible that parts of all of the theories are true. It definitely sounds like Ralph may have been withholding information to his bosses, whether it was giving away secrets or not. It's also possible that the KGB roughed him up and THEN he committed suicide. As for the marks on his head and his teeth, if he fell from a height of 4-5 feet (with the chairs stacked up) and landed on his head, it surely would have done damage. Without seeing how much damage the body had, we can't be sure.

I have a hard time getting around the double locks in the room. I can't see a scenario where someone could get out of a hotel room with the deadbolt and chain locked. Unless it had a false ceiling or vent that you could crawl through.

I think Ralph was getting pressure from both sides, and killed himself in that bizarre manner so people would think the government did it to him. That would make him look like a hero and possible give his family death benefits.

Suicide by electrocution is incredibly rare. Ralph was nearing full retirement from the army. His end was in sight. So he decides to stage an elaborate suicide that is extremely painful and possibly not even effective? Not a chance. People are way over thinking this entire case yet again. If his wife wasn't so vocal about her husband the army would have swept this under the rug. My money is on soviet agents doing this. How they were tipped is anyone's guess. More sloppiness in the Intel community. The list of us assets burned and then killed during this time period is shocking

Suicide by electrocution is incredibly rare. Ralph was nearing full retirement from the army. His end was in sight. So he decides to stage an elaborate suicide that is extremely painful and possibly not even effective? Not a chance. People are way over thinking this entire case yet again. If his wife wasn't so vocal about her husband the army would have swept this under the rug. My money is on soviet agents doing this. How they were tipped is anyone's guess. More sloppiness in the Intel community. The list of us assets burned and then killed during this time period is shocking
this case will always have a cloud over it no matter what one believes. I don't know what happened to him. I definitely think the fact that UM left off that bit that he was from a different country is important. but with that said we would need more info on that.

In my opinion everything you just said is every bit as much of a guess as it is to say that he committed suicide.

this case will always have a cloud over it no matter what one believes. I don't know what happened to him. I definitely think the fact that UM left off that bit that he was from a different country is important. but with that said we would need more info on that.

In my opinion everything you just said is every bit as much of a guess as it is to say that he committed suicide.

My comments on the us assets in the intelligence community here and abroad that were rounded up by the soviets during the cold war and killed is NOT a guess. There are more than a few books from legitimate authors that detail these deaths in the Intel community. No guessing going on there. As I said earlier, Aldrich Ames and Robert Hanson are just 2 who did incredible damage. If you don't know who they are you'd be more informed after reading what those 2 did. There were others besides those 2.

My comments on the us assets in the intelligence community here and abroad that were rounded up by the soviets during the cold war and killed is NOT a guess. There are more than a few books from legitimate authors that detail these deaths in the Intel community. No guessing going on there. As I said earlier, Aldrich Ames and Robert Hanson are just 2 who did incredible damage. If you don't know who they are you'd be more informed after reading what those 2 did. There were others besides those 2.
I get that. And there could be some truth to that. But people also write books to make money. A lot of Military conspiracy books and documentaries are on par with UFO conspiracy. Believe what you will...

I get that. And there could be some truth to that. But people also write books to make money. A lot of Military conspiracy books and documentaries are on par with UFO conspiracy. Believe what you will...

Well never in a million years would I have believed that people wrote books to make money! Can you imagine that. I guess every book should be discounted because someone wrote it for monetary gain. Wow dude. Maybe you should do a little research on the major players in the spy games during the Cold War. Start with James Jesus Angleton. Although the definitive bio on him is exhaustive and not for those use to reading tabloids.

And as for Mr Sigler being born overseas, this was a plus. The Army was actively seeking eastern europeans to join the ranks of special forces and mililary intelligence during the cold war. And when I say special forces Im referring specificly to Green Berets. There are too many people that confuse special forces and special operations.

After youre done reading up on Jim Jesus Angleton I'll throw a few more names at ya. Angleton did a lot of damage because of what he was able to get away with for so many years. He was buddies with a guy you probably hold in high esteem, a one Kim Philby.

this case will always have a cloud over it no matter what one believes. I don't know what happened to him. I definitely think the fact that UM left off that bit that he was from a different country is important. but with that said we would need more info on that.

In my opinion everything you just said is every bit as much of a guess as it is to say that he committed suicide.

How dare you question LakeForestPI! We should all be grateful that he has decided to grace us with his presence. He is not to be questioned, second guessed or even debated with. We are mere mortals compared to him and his superior intelligence!

Well never in a million years would I have believed that people wrote books to make money! Can you imagine that. I guess every book should be discounted because someone wrote it for monetary gain. Wow dude. Maybe you should do a little research on the major players in the spy games during the Cold War. Start with James Jesus Angleton. Although the definitive bio on him is exhaustive and not for those use to reading tabloids.

And as for Mr Sigler being born overseas, this was a plus. The Army was actively seeking eastern europeans to join the ranks of special forces and mililary intelligence during the cold war. And when I say special forces Im referring specificly to Green Berets. There are too many people that confuse special forces and special operations.

After youre done reading up on Jim Jesus Angleton I'll throw a few more names at ya. Angleton did a lot of damage because of what he was able to get away with for so many years. He was buddies with a guy you probably hold in high esteem, a one Kim Philby.

i don't know who any of those people are. I personally do not trust all media(print or broadcast) that documents accounts of the US military at any point. They don't get it right today I'll tell you that. But that's just me. UM is the perfect example of the Hollywood effect. That's not to say I dismiss everything. I have read some good stuff and seen good coverage. The best book being written by Hal Moore and Joseph Galloway. We were soldiers once and young. One of the authors was a journalist that went to cover the Vietnam war I believe and endeared himself to a platoon commander. The other author was the platoon commander. So yes it is possible to find good media coverage of military.

I will admit I don't know much either about Ralph siegler as well. I give you the benefit of the doubt on this one that you believe he was killed and that could be possible.

I don't know where you are going with the special ops comment. I saw you posting in another thread and I found your posts to be a bit strange in regards to military. It's like you know some of what you are talking about then you say something to water down your post.

How dare you question LakeForestPI! We should all be grateful that he has decided to grace us with his presence. He is not to be questioned, second guessed or even debated with. We are mere mortals compared to him and his superior intelligence!

:clap

I will admit I don't know much either about Ralph siegler as well. I give you the benefit of the doubt on this one that you believe he was killed and that could be possible.

I don't know where you are going with the special ops comment. I saw you posting in another thread and I found your posts to be a bit strange in regards to military. It's like you know some of what you are talking about then you say something to water down your post.

I brought up Special Forces aka Green Berets as an example of the Army recruiting eastern euros during the cold war. The green berets were formed in 1952 to fight and train forces behind the iron curtain during the cold war. Army intelligence also wanted eastern Europeans born behind the iron curtain. This talk about him being from Czechoslovakia and was he or wasn't he a US citizen is a red herring. He was exactly the type of person the army wanted during this period. The FBI also wanted his expertise. God only knows if the CIA played a role in any of it. These agencies fought one another for talent during this time period. My whole premise is that there was too much sloppiness on the part of the US Intel agencies and this led to there being a leak that Soviet Intel seized up. This is what caused his death. In my opinion.

:clap
:thanks:

No more Lake forest.

This is my favourite suicide or not case as I can see a good case for both sides.
The double locked door pushes me to go for suicide. The annoying thing about these cases is the lack of a resolution as nothing changes.