I was watching this case on UM today, I was wondering if anything has ever come up about this case. I believe it said in the segment that the police ruled it undetermined or something like that. That Gabriel Carrhotic,or whatever his name, sure was a weird guy in the way he talked about Kurt's father. I kind of felt sorry for Kurt's father and hoping that this case would eventually get solved.

One interesting thing I noticed about this case was either Robert Stack was pronouncing Gabriel Carrillo's name wrong or they misspelled his name. It clearly showed his name as Gabriel Carrillo in the segment, but Stack called him Carrhotic or something similar.

As far as the case goes, I really don't think there is anything unsolved or mysterious about it. It seems that he either fell or jumped off of their in a drunken stupor. There is no evidence at all that suggests he was involved in foul play.

His name was Gabriel Carrille he used the ancient welsh name Charottic, I don't know if that is the right spelling.

What struck me as weird in this case was the following: It was reported that he had trouble sleeping and supposedly went out for a spontaneous jog or something like that around 3 a.m. Now I could be wrong, but I don't know a lot of people that go from trying to sleep one minute, to doing rigorous physical activity the next, particularly in the middle of the night. I agree with one of the above posts in that he seemed like a good kid until he got mixed up in some bad stuff there at the end of his life.

just one comment.

kurts father couldnt fathom the thought that his expert swimmer, climber son would die doing either of those.

i assume the position that it is much more likely that a climber would die on a mountain and a swimmer would drown, simply because they do it more.

What struck me as weird in this case was the following: It was reported that he had trouble sleeping and supposedly went out for a spontaneous jog or something like that around 3 a.m. Now I could be wrong, but I don't know a lot of people that go from trying to sleep one minute, to doing rigorous physical activity the next, particularly in the middle of the night. I agree with one of the above posts in that he seemed like a good kid until he got mixed up in some bad stuff there at the end of his life.

This was one of my first few posts, and I think I'm going to end up having to retract what I said. I had mentioned that it was unlikely to get up in the middle of one's sleep and have the desire to do excercise. However, that happened to me just today. I woke up in the middle of my sleep as the power went off (still don't know what the cause of it was, probably a mouse in the transformer or something) and I can't sleep without the fan on. I was ticked at being woke up and I felt the need to go for a run or something. I don't know what it was. Maybe I figured running would get me tired again so I could fall back to sleep, or I just had a lot of frustration I wanted to burn off. Weird.

I just saw this case for the first time on crystaldawn's DVD Vol. 2. Here's my question: why is it always with the Satanism on this show? For the sake of reference, I've done internet searches for "Satanism" and "Church of Satan," etc. In an era when you can find any weird thing people want to do on the internet, there is precious little on any organized Satanic cult activity out there. I understand, of course, that if people are doing something truly illegal (sacrificing animals and the like) they might not want to make a public advertisement of same, but at the same time the "freedom of speech" we enjoy is exercised, often in extraordinarily graphic detail, on the internet all the time. And yet there really isn't much out there about "Black Masses" and the like. The one "church" operating under the name of "Church of Satan" is not really worshipping the Devil as a Christian would commonly understand that term, but more of a "natural spirit."

It just seems to me that whenever a teenager is murdered in this show, Satanism is one of three more or less "automatic" explanations that people seem to reach for. And yet, it seems to me that ACTUAL devil worship is exceedingly rare.

In this case, of course, McFall's father is linking the kid's interest in Dungeons & Dragons to the occult and ultimately to Satanism. This, to me, is a little like people who believe the Ouija board is a gateway to evil --- I don't think the mystical powers of the underworld can be conjured by a $10 board made by Milton Bradley anymore than I believe that pretending to be a dragon and rolling a 12-sided die, however weird-looking that object may be, can turn you into someone capable of channelling Beezlebub.

What I mostly curious about in this case is the kid's father's apparent disinterest in a more obvious motive for his murder (if he was murdered) or suicide --- a lover's quarrell. What 17 year old kid stays over at the house of a 35 year old man who is just a "friend"? Perhaps McFall was depressed that his firend simply left him out in the living room and went to bed --- i.e., he was hoping to have a romantic encounter --- and when it didn't materialize, he drove off in a huff, pounded a few beers, and decided to end it all (I also like McFall's father's contention that his son "didn't drink" --- sure buddy, you go right ahead and believe that if it makes you happy; he hangs out with all sorts of people over 21, he, according to you, was becoming interested in worshipping the Devil, but alcohol at 17? --- that's immoral). Alternatively, maybe he and his friend did go out there and get into some kind of altercation, and he ended up over the cliff.

I'm just stunned at how often "Satanism" or some variation on that theme comes up in these segments. From everything I can gather, it's not a common thing to do at all!

To answer your question regarding "Satanism": It was the times - In the eighties there was this paranoia about satanism especially around young adults like Kurt McFall. The fact that McFall was dabbling in religions that were not widely accepted by society at large or were thought to be cults I think added the whole "satanism angle" for this segment.

Personally I've always felt that Kurt McFall died in either exactly the way that Carrhotic said he did or in a similar fashion. I don't believe that Carrhotic or his religious group had anything to do with McFall's death. I found Kurt's friend who gave chapter & verse on satanism to be a bit creepy and although I do feel for Kurt's father I think that a lot of things he says seem to be typical parental overreactions or just a father working through his grief.

What I mostly curious about in this case is the kid's father's apparent disinterest in a more obvious motive for his murder (if he was murdered) or suicide --- a lover's quarrell. What 17 year old kid stays over at the house of a 35 year old man who is just a "friend"? Perhaps McFall was depressed that his firend simply left him out in the living room and went to bed --- i.e., he was hoping to have a romantic encounter --- and when it didn't materialize, he drove off in a huff, pounded a few beers, and decided to end it all (I also like McFall's father's contention that his son "didn't drink" --- sure buddy, you go right ahead and believe that if it makes you happy; he hangs out with all sorts of people over 21, he, according to you, was becoming interested in worshipping the Devil, but alcohol at 17? --- that's immoral). Alternatively, maybe he and his friend did go out there and get into some kind of altercation, and he ended up over the cliff.

Well, it is possible since this is San Fran we're talking about, which does have a high gay population. But I doubt it. A 35 year old and a 17 year old sexual relationship would have meant it was statutory rape. As has been mentioned before, Corrodic might appear to be a bit unusual to most, but I think he's relatively harmless.

the pre-series specials sure did have some freakishly cool music, like in this segment when Kurt's father visits his grave towards the end of the segment, and in the Dottie Caylor segment, about mid-way through when her actress gets off the train.

working an extremely rare evening shift, and it's BORING

reseraching cases online, and I found an article that claimed Kurt had a carving in his back, this might point more towards murder. Let me know if anybody wants links to this stuff.

Please post the link about Kurt McFall. Bizarre case.

The problem with a case like this is that all of the background info may be totally misleading- a bunch of red herrings. Really, almost anything is possible I think.

This reminds me of a case like Carson Prince, there were all these bizarre background situations about her mayor father and her drug-dealing boyfriend and where she was going when she was murdered because she wasn't where she was supposed to be, etc. but in the end, it was a totally random act of horrific violence by some stranger who was a serial killer.

Kurt's dad seems so pained in this episode. I wonder if he ever found any peace. It's like 25 years or so since his death (haven't watched that episode in a long time but I think it was early 80s).

Pretty interesting reading....here's the link:

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00Aa3f

Here is the link

http://www.modern-psychiatry.com/d_&_d_deaths.htm

Kurt' case is #19.

The paragraph does call Corrodic's group as a Satan worshiping group. I wish they gave more info, but they didn't. They seem to know some stuff not mentioned in the segment.

I wonder which article is more accurate. The one I posted said he had mysterious injuries on his back like he had been lashed with a whip.

This is pretty interesting...I was listening to my favorite radio show, the Armstrong & Getty show, via the podcast today and during the show a guy named "Matt from San Francisco" called and brought up the Kurt McFall case and claimed Kurt was his cousin.

THE CASE IS NOT DISCUSSED AT ALL BEYOND THE BRIEF MENTION but I just that it was pretty random. If you're interested, the guy "Matt" calls in at about 19:30 of ANG072307. Then a guy "Vincent" representing the Society of Creative Anachronism calls up to defend the club at about 34:30 and the hosts rib him pretty good. You can get it here:
http://www.talk650kste.com/cc-common/podcast/single_podcast.html?podcast=armandgettypodcast.xml Armstrong and Getty 072307-8am




All that aside, I would recommend these guys to EVERYONE who even slightly enjoys talk radio. They're both mid-western guys who relocated here to Sacramento about 10 years ago and now are broadcasting throughout the Central Valley and Bay Area. Conservative people think they're way too liberal and liberal people think they're way too conservative...which, to me, means they're just perfect.

Hey,

The modern psychology link refers to an article published about Kurt in the Chicago Tribune on 1/27/85. I just joined and searched their website but could not find the article after numerous searches. Hmmm. Would be worth tracking that article down but I didn't have any luck on their website... anybody got ready access to a library or want to give it a go on the Chicago Tribune's website? I didn't have much luck with an advanced search...

It's like 25 years or so since his death (haven't watched that episode in a long time but I think it was early 80s).

Summer of 1984.

There was a link to an article that was posted before, but I just wanted to sum up what it said. It sounds like the area where Kurt was found was known as a bad part of town in San Fran and a lot of suspicious and mysterious deaths were reported there:

"I wish there was a record of all the people who were murdered or disappeared out there in the last 30 years because it will be something like at least 50 or 60."

"One day she let me read the letters that they had been collecting and in one of them it described a satanic killing of a young boy by the name of Kurt McFall. I took this information to a teacher that we both had and she contacted his parents. The cop I was babysitting for was involved in the raid on the lady's trailer which inside was really gross (blood writing on the walls and feces on the floor.) The last I heard, she had given the name of some man in the LA area who was the leader but I dont know if anything ever came of it. In the letter she went into detail about them torturing him and then pushing him over the cliff. I know it had to be true because she had no way of knowing any of the information she knew."

^ Are we speaking of Korodic here? hmmm

Here's something I haven't mentioned before: According to Korrodic, McFall went out for a run, yet when his body was found, it was suggested that he was either swimming or rock climbing. Plus, his car was found at the top of the cliff. This would lead me to believe he wasn't running, and it doesn't tie into Korrodic's story.

How about the "These organizations don't make threats, they make actions"? Has anyone from such a group been charged or convicted of any serious crime?

I just watched this segement recently. According to unsolved mysteries Kurt had no traces of alcohol or durgs in his system when they did a autopsy.

Strangely, bottles of alcohol were found near his car. Now it is possible this was a popular teen or young adult hideout and they were left there. If someone was to have saved those bottles as evidence, which I highly doubt, I wonder if it would be possible to look for a print of one of the cult members. They then could place them in the area at the time of kurt's death.

One other detail was that his suit of armour was not inside his trunk of the car, but money was left in the glove compartment meaning a random robbery is unlikely.

I believe it is most likely Kurt had some sort of accident while at the beach late but he was not intoxicated...but the other evidence left at, or around the scene should have gotten a better investigation than it seemed too.

I just watched this segement recently. According to unsolved mysteries Kurt had no traces of alcohol or durgs in his system when they did a autopsy.

Strangely, bottles of alcohol were found near his car. Now it is possible this was a popular teen or young adult hideout and they were left there. If someone was to have saved those bottles as evidence, which I highly doubt, I wonder if it would be possible to look for a print of one of the cult members. They then could place them in the area at the time of kurt's death.

One other detail was that his suit of armour was not inside his trunk of the car, but money was left in the glove compartment meaning a random robbery is unlikely.

I believe it is most likely Kurt had some sort of accident while at the beach late but he was not intoxicated...but the other evidence left at, or around the scene should have gotten a better investigation than it seemed too.

I've thought about this case a lot over the years. I now believe that Kurt's death was an accident. When I re-watched the segment a few years ago, I noted that the re-enactment of the discovery of Kurt's car showed the driver's door hanging wide open. I think it's possible that a wino or maybe some teens found Kurt's unlocked car and took advantage of the situation. It was dark, so they could have missed the $20 in the glove compartment. The suit of armor was in a suitcase (or so I thought). A thief could have grabbed it thinking it was something far more valuable.

I remember wondering if Corrodic's cult was the "Satanic" organization Kurt's father and friend were referring to. I always thought the group seemed pretty benign, actually.

For what it's worth, I saw this story on the Spike network recently, and there was no update.

I remember wondering if Corrodic's cult was the "Satanic" organization Kurt's father and friend were referring to. I always thought the group seemed pretty benign, actually.

Oh yeah. The Kurt McFall segment is a prime example of "satanic panic." Carrhotic and his group might be pagans or wiccans, but they certainly didn't seem to be bloodthirsty, vengeful "devil worshippers."

If you're a member of a shady, pseudo-religious killing cult, why would you allow UM to film your ceremonies and the faces of all those in attendance? At least the alleged Son of Sam "organization" was supposedly meeting under the cover of darkness in some random corner of Untermeyer Park. Why would Carrhotic agree to an interview, and, indeed, why would he murder Kurt when he knew all suspicion would immediately fall on him afterward? I think he put it best himself: the whole thing is stupid.

I think Kurt's death was accidental. Always have.

I also think that Carrhotic wasn't hiding anything. He seemed very straight forward and didn't act like he was hiding anything.

Oh yeah. The Kurt McFall segment is a prime example of "satanic panic." Carrhotic and his group might be pagans or wiccans, but they certainly didn't seem to be bloodthirsty, vengeful "devil worshippers."
Totally agree. I don't think Carrhotic and his "cult" would hurt a fly.

i just saw this case once again...although it could be an accident certain details about the case seem odd

No alcohol/drugs found on his system

and i just think that if he were to fall from a cliff that high, he would have more injuries (broken skull, back, legs ect)

also, whats with the belt buckle being missing?

i think he was murdered but i don't see enough evidence to say that the cult he was in was responsible

I feel terrible for the father!

I just watched this segment. It was mentioned in this thread that Kurt was going for a run but in the segment he was found without shoes. Could the waterwaves be that strong to loose the shoes if it was indeed an accident?
Otherwise it is strange to go running without any shoes on íf no one else was involved and íf indeed it went like Carillo said. And if he did go for a run and left his shoes on the beach, why haven't they been found or are they found?

About 'the cult'. Is it possible Kurt was involved with another group beside the group of that Carillo guy? Pagans and witchcraft is another caliber than satanism. But maybe they didn't have figured that out in the 80's. ;)
And in the segment and in this article (http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1948&dat=19871121&id=oPIiAAAAIBAJ&sjid=dcwFAAAAIBAJ&pg=927,171726) it was stated what Kurt's father found in his son's room. Do these items belong with pagans, witchcraft or ...?

Unlike other posters I do trust Carillo as far as I can see him, so to speak.
I don't think he was a satanist or anything like that but when he talks the pupils of his eyes go left and right a lot of the time. As if he is nervous or does not stand fully behind what he is saying.

It certain is a mystery case but that goes for a lot of unsolved mystery cases. I guess that is the part that intrigue us all to discuss them.

(link) it was stated what Kurt's father found in his son's room. Do these items belong with pagans, witchcraft or ...?

Unlike other posters I do trust Carillo as far as I can see him, so to speak.
I don't think he was a satanist or anything like that but when he talks the pupils of his eyes go left and right a lot of the time. As if he is nervous or does not stand fully behind what he is saying.


I've never seen that news article about what his dad found in his room. It reads like so much of the Satan Panic stuff from the 1980s that looking back on it now it doesn't really help shed light on this case.

I'm a pagan myself and feathers rocks and a knife are about the most normal run of the mill stuff a ceremonial pagan would have. As for Carillo being nervous I think that's a normal reaction considering many were trying to paint him as a murdering demon worshiper.

It's a shame that this case spent so much time trying to paint some evil Satanic conspiracy about Kurt's death when it's far more likely it was just a random accident. I don't think his religion had anything to do with his tragically untimely end.

A few months ago, I had an interest in the case and did some online research. Here is the thread I started (I hope this link works)...

http://www.sitcomsonline.com/boards/showthread.php?t=258746&highlight=McFall

Not to rehash everything I said there but I did find a site that talked a little bit about Caradoc and his group. The most interesting tidbits were a mention of his passing of January 1, 2007. Also, an allegation that his ethics were questionable as he was known to have sexual relations with students. An allegation I found interesting since it was suggested in the segment that Kurt may have discovered something "unsettling" about the group.

All that being said, I would say I'm still feeling about 90/10 that Kurt's death was an accident unrelated to either Caradoc's Pagan group or the SCA.

Semi-OT but here is a picture of Caradoc playing the harp...

Also, an allegation that his ethics were questionable as he was known to have sexual relations with students. An allegation I found interesting since it was suggested in the segment that Kurt may have discovered something "unsettling" about the group

Good pull.

Lets say that he was involved in depraved sexual activity with students. It wasn't like he was a catholic priest or anything. Wouldn;t his religion provide a lot of leeway (if not outright condone) on that behavior.
Would info like that really be that damaging to his image?

It's a shame that this case spent so much time trying to paint some evil Satanic conspiracy about Kurt's death when it's far more likely it was just a random accident. I don't think his religion had anything to do with his tragically untimely end.

Well if a Catholic priest dies, isn;t the logical place for police to look be in his church?

If I were investigating I would definitely look into any religious organizations or any organizations period the victim was involved.

If a victim is involved in any type of extremist religious group, that group has to be cleared in the investigation. Whether it;s a Buddhist sect, Seventh Day Adventist, Satanist, Voodoo...etc..

I'm a pagan myself and feathers rocks and a knife are about the most normal run of the mill stuff a ceremonial pagan would have. As for Carillo being nervous I think that's a normal reaction considering many were trying to paint him as a murdering demon worshiper.

Carillo is more a person of interest because he knew Kurt very well. Pagan activities aside.

It's a shame that this case spent so much time trying to paint some evil Satanic conspiracy about Kurt's death when it's far more likely it was just a random accident.

1. I don;t think it;s as much a Satanic conspiracy as it may be one or two deranged individuals involved in the church.

2, It was believe that Yeshiva rabbi hid the killer of Chaim Weiss.Maybe Carillo is no different? Maybe he felt it was his religuous duty to hid the killer of Kurt to protect the pagan sect?

3. You see here's the thing....if Kurt;s death was a murder...the most likely suspect is a friend of his (male or female). Considering what Kurts activities were at the time, there is a good chance this friend may have been member of the cult. The murder itself might not have anything to do with the cult, but the murder may be a member of said cult who killed Kurt for personal reasons.

All that being said, I would say I'm still feeling about 90/10 that Kurt's death was an accident unrelated to either Caradoc's Pagan group or the SCA.


I'm starting to really lean that way. But I can only go 70/30 at this point. That darn car still bugs me! That and the marks on his body.

Why do I think of a medieval weapon when I think of those marks....:confused:

If I were investigating I would definitely look into any religious organizations or any organizations period the victim was involved.


Yeah as would I. But the fact that Kurt was involved in a religion others of the time viewed as 'dark and evil' may have resulted in several saying oh that has to be it!! As opposed to other more likely outcomes.

If a victim is involved in any type of extremist religious group, that group has to be cleared in the investigation. Whether it;s a Buddhist sect, Seventh Day Adventist, Satanist, Voodoo...etc..

Totally agree on that looking at the church/temple/coven/grove of the deceased is a good place to start.

What I can see from what he was involved in wasn't even that extremest . Kurt was a pretty run of the mill pagan from what we saw of him. Hardly the type to attract the crazier crazies of society. Maybe a few weirdos but I don't think he was putting himself into some dark dangerous sub culture.

Still doesn't matter where you are you can be killed getting the paper.

Carillo is more a person of interest because he knew Kurt very well. Pagan activities aside.

Oh yeah no doubt about it he had to be looked it. Last person to see him alive a good friend of his etc. It was not unwise to look at him.

2, It was believe that Yeshiva rabbi hid the killer of Chaim Weiss.Maybe Carillo is no different? Maybe he felt it was his religuous duty to hid the killer of Kurt to protect the pagan sect?

The Weiss case was another one that has stuck with me such a tragic one. A possibility is sure maybe Carillo hide a killer in his group to protect his order. But at a passing glance his group didn't seem nearly so structured or with that much of a central power structure as to allow that to go so smoothly.

If it were one or two members maybe. Never say never.

3. You see here's the thing....if Kurt;s death was a murder...the most likely suspect is a friend of his (male or female). Considering what Kurts activities were at the time, there is a good chance this friend may have been member of the cult. The murder itself might not have anything to do with the cult, but the murder may be a member of said cult who killed Kurt for personal reasons.

Again all very true. When a person dies the first persons looked too are often family and friends. But when somebody kills a friend it is often a crime of passion or a heat of the moment type of thing.

Kurt's death doesn't strike me as such a hotblooded killing it looks more to me like a robbery gone bad. Besides I think if someone set it up as a fake crime scene they would have done a better job of it.

No doubt though this is a strange case.

I lean more forward to Kurt having an argument with someone that night and that person pushed him in the heat of the moment. Maybe Kurt lost his balance and fell off the cliff. An argument that went wrong.

Just a theory: If that Carillo guy indeed had an interest in sexual relations with his group members or students then maybe he had it also in Kurt. Maybe Carillo thought it could work between the two of them because they get along so well. Carillo invites him over that weekend to make a pass on Kurt. When he does Kurt is startled. He did not know Carillo was gay and Kurt wants nothing to do with it. He runs off or drive off to the beach. Carillo follows him and the above (first paragraph) happens.

I lean more forward to Kurt having an argument with someone that night and that person pushed him in the heat of the moment. Maybe Kurt lost his balance and fell off the cliff. An argument that went wrong.

Just a theory: If that Carillo guy indeed had an interest in sexual relations with his group members or students then maybe he had it also in Kurt. Maybe Carillo thought it could work between the two of them because they get along so well. Carillo invites him over that weekend to make a pass on Kurt. When he does Kurt is startled. He did not know Carillo was gay and Kurt wants nothing to do with it. He runs off or drive off to the beach. Carillo follows him and the above (first paragraph) happens.

What you've explained above is the most likely murder scenario for Kurt McFall.

The only problems with the theory are:

1. This scenario is an accidental death...It assumes that the other person thought this was a murder and that Kurt was dead. Out of fear of a murder charge this person refused to come forward. I can see this scenario being the case for Carillo, but for a friend, I'm not sure that the friend wouldn;t call the hospital to try to rescue Kurt. I'm not saying it couldn;t happen, but I thought it should be mentioned.

2. If this is accidental death...is there really a crime here? This essentially is an accident that resulted from a fight. This is essentially a variation on the default theory that Kurt died in an accident.

3. It is possible that Kurt could have gotten into a fight with someone and Kurt fell on his own without a push. Kurt while trying to back up may have lost his bearing and just fell off.

4. If Carillo is willing to be this devious to try to entice a young boy as well ...he could very well be devious enough to intentionally push Kurt intentionally to hid his activities. Perhaps this is a crime of passion caused by Carillo as a jilted lover. Being a Pagan, he does have a different and unique morality that he could use to justify this murder.

I do not necessarily see that as problems. Just points to consider if the theory holds up.

I guess my theory is in the base not a murder scenario: if the intent to kill wasn't there.
And I don't think there was intent. It was an heat of the moment thing. But if two people are arguing on a cliff and you push someone you could have known that person could fall and got seriously injured or die. I call that manslaughter.

Maybe that person or Carillo (which to me is the most likely suspect, not just a friend) thought no one would believe it wasn't intentional.
It is possible that after the fall he called out to Kurt but Kurt didn't answer. Carillo (also read: or another person, which I don't think but that is still possible but irritating to write over and over) was so startled and frightened that it went this way, and with Kurt not answering, he honoustly thought Kurt was dead. Maybe he stood on top of the cliff for a couple of minutes not knowing what to do. Should he go look? But in the dark that would be dangerous to do and maybe it was not even possible to climb down that cliff.

I guess not, so he fled the scene, back to his house. Or he fled immediately. I guess in that last case it did not come into his mind, at the moment, that Kurt maybe was just unconscious. If you are in some sort of shock I guess you'll assume the worse. And when you see the height of the cliff I can imagine you will think that a person would likely be dead.
Maybe later Carillo wondered if Kurt was even dead but did not dare to go back and later heard that Kurt was indeed found dead.

It is one thing as a man to have sexual feelings for younger men, another to prey on teenagers not yet young adults but it is an whole other area to be so devious that you would not try to help someone you pushed by accident of a cliff. Just let him lay there, possibly severely injured and otherwise dead. He could have gone for help or at least call anonimous from a payphone.
I guess he might have thought that at least Kurt could not tell on him, make him (look) ridiculous publicly for trying to hit on Kurt. Or that they would trace it back to him. I don't think he would have thought of that on forehand but maybe he thought of it when they argued on the cliff or at least after the fall. I'll will give him the benefit of the doubt that it did occur to him afterwards and that it was the reason he did not do anything to help Kurt.
But how you weigh it Carillo has some portion of deviousness in his body.

What the possible carving on his back or neck concerns. It is also possible he got that from the fall. If I remember well the cliff was not 100% straight down so it is possible Kurt fell, hit a sharp rock or something when he rolled over and over in his fall.

What the truth is, in every direction it is real sad someone that young did come to his end like this.

Maybe that person or Carillo (which to me is the most likely suspect, not just a friend) thought no one would believe it wasn't intentional.

I guess. But it's not like there is a murder weapon or anything.

The person could always say the guy fell off the cliff.

This isn;t like a child dying due to a blow from the parents. I'm not sure that being accused for murder is the first thing you think of.

Should he go look? But in the dark that would be dangerous to do and maybe it was not even possible to climb down that cliff.

Could have called the police and water rescue. I would think a friend would at least do that. Carillo probably wouldn't but I would think a close friend would. Curiously enough, this friend was apparently in the car with him and drove up with him. This had to be a fairly close friend.

What the possible carving on his back or neck concerns. It is also possible he got that from the fall. If I remember well the cliff was not 100% straight down so it is possible Kurt fell, hit a sharp rock or something when he rolled over and over in his fall.

Most likely it was rocks....but Kurt was involved with Medieval fighting. There were several unique weapons that may be able to produce similar wounds. I wonder if a mace would cause similar wounds....

this friend was apparently in the car with him and drove up with him.
Where did you find this info?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mastermind
this friend was apparently in the car with him and drove up with him.
Where did you find this info?


1.I'm assuming there were no tire marks or evidence of a second vehicle. (especially since this vehicle would be speeding off at the time.) Does anyone know if there was any evidence of another car. How common were vehicles on that path? What was the terrain?

2.There is more evidence of a second party in his car.

Just making a deduction that a friend didn;t drive up to meet him at the scene. That this friend drove up with him in Kurt's car.

When I read your message I assume you think a (close) friend of him did it.
Oké, let I go in that direction with you. (I don't think so but hé it can be possible.)

How did Kurt end up with this friend. In his car or with two cars?
According to Carillo, he was with him that weekend en Kurt only seems to have left in the middle of the night because it was too hot? (I don't believe that was the reason Kurt left but I'll use it for your theory.)

And what could be the reason that Kurt and that friend got in an arguement?
I can see it happen between Carillo and Kurt but I can't seem to fit a friend in, in that weekend and for what reason that person and Kurt could have an accounter.

I don't get why so many people here think this was an accident.

The people that knew Kurt best, including his anonymous friend that was scared for his life, and his father both think he was murdered, and I share this opinion, as well as the medical examiners. There's a reason he's scared for his life, and as he said, Kurt had been acing very strangely in the months leading up to his death, which caused him to lose a lot of his friends. Then there's this:

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00Aa3f

The murder scene just screams of a shoddy cover up. There were beer cans near the car yet the autopsy revealed there wasn't any alcohol in his system, so I'm pretty sure they were planted there to make Kurt look like he fell accidentily off the cliff due to his drunkeness. That or a person got in an argument with Kurt and pushed him off the cliff, and then promptly fled the scene in a flurry without regard for the car. A lot of questions remained unanswered. Why was he naked? Where was his belt buckle? If he went out for a run like Caradoc said, then why was his shoes missing? Why was his SCA armor missing from the trunk? Did the cuts on his back resemble injuries sustained during the fall or actual assault?

That Caradoc guy is such a suspicious character. If I had to take a guess, I'd say he had something to do with it. He either knew too much or got an some sort of argument I'd say. Or he was ritually sacrificed, but we'd need more information than that letter to know.

Kyte, your link doesn't work. I get a 404 message.
The beer in the car can also be put there by teenagers who found the abandoned car and used it to hang out. Unaware of the circumstances..
I don't know if it was murder of not. I just have my opinion and I thought a theory with it. I can be totally wrong. I don't know.

Kyte, your link doesn't work. I get a 404 message.
The beer in the car can also be put there by teenagers who found the abandoned car and used it to hang out. Unaware of the circumstances..
I don't know if it was murder of not. I just have my opinion and I thought a theory with it. I can be totally wrong. I don't know.

Fixed :)

When I read your message I assume you think a (close) friend of him did it.
Oké, let I go in that direction with you. (I don't think so but hé it can be possible.)


And what could be the reason that Kurt and that friend got in an arguement?
I can see it happen between Carillo and Kurt but I can't seem to fit a friend in, in that weekend and for what reason that person and Kurt could have an accounter.

Actually I don;t think anyone killed him at all. I believe it was an accident. I was following your line of thinking that he was murdered.

How did Kurt end up with this friend. In his car or with two cars?
According to Carillo, he was with him that weekend en Kurt only seems to have left in the middle of the night because it was too hot? (I don't believe that was the reason Kurt left but I'll use it for your theory.)

We have no idea what happened where Kurt left to time of death. Evidence in the car suggests potentially another person in the car, (who was drinking the beer in the car?). Kurt may have picked someone up. Since there is no evidence of another car, I have to assume that the other person was with him in a car.


And what could be the reason that Kurt and that friend got in an arguement?

Resons? I dunno....Girls, Drugs, money, who's the better fighter, Who's the best shortstop in the National League....male testosterone...homosexual advances...the reasons are endless as to why two males would want to engage in a fistacuffs. I once tried to stuff my 15 year old cousin in a garbage gan because he stole my Kangol hat once. Not the greatest motive at all but a fight ensued.

Keep in mind, were discussing the motives for a fight/argument. Not the motives for murder.


I can see it happen between Carillo and Kurt but I can't seem to fit a friend in, in that weekend and for what reason that person and Kurt could have an accounter.[/QUOTE]

Wouldn;t Carillo be considered a close friend???:confused: Why would his motives be any different from any other friend of Kurt's.

Kyte, I followed your link and saw that I already visited that page when I googled Kurt earlier. You think it was murder. What are your reasons for that or what is your theory?

Mastermind, I didn't think it was murder. I was more thinking about an arguement that accidently went wrong. You guess he either jumped or fell?
But why would he have climbed there when Carillo claims Kurt went out because he found it too hot? Why then would you go climbing? You only get it hotter then. And where were his shoes? He was found without. Climbing without shoes?
I don't think he just fell from the cliff. He knew the area. I find it hard to believe someone will fell, just like that, from a cliff without 'help'.

Who could he have picked up in the car after he left Carillo in the middle of the night? Nobody talks about seeing him after he left Carillo so if there was someone else he must have met him that night? According to interviews in UM he did not have close friends anymore because of his behaviour so I guess there was not anyone he was close enough to anymore he could call that late.
The car was abandoned for an amount of time. Maybe other kids, teenagers found the car and used it as a hangout?

Carillo doesn't sound as a close friend to me. More of the mentor of the group Kurt was seeing.

You guess he either jumped or fell?

That will perhaps be a mystery that will never be solved.

Unless your an insurance investigator, I really don;t think it matters, whether it was suicide or accident. (Those insurance companies are theives anyway, so let them pay any claims!!!:mad: )

I'm only interested if this is a murder rather than accident/suicide.


Carillo doesn't sound as a close friend to me. More of the mentor of the group Kurt was seeing.

There is an old saying in police work that if you've met someone more than twice in a non-business related matter...that person can be qualified as a "friend". I can;t remeber how many times I have heard someone say "he;s not really a close friend'...yet the person meets the guys seven times for no apparent business reason. Yeah, that person is qualified as a friend. :rolleyes:


Technically you could make an argument that anybody that you know that you care to put in your address book with no qualifier(plummer, doctor, etc.) is a friend.

I see John Doe listed in your address book and I see no qualifier and your other friends can tell me who that person is...that person is a friend.

Carillo would be qualified as a friend. Much like if I had found a rabbi, imam or priest name in your cell phone, I would consider that a person that could potentially be with you on a social call.


The car was abandoned for an amount of time. Maybe other kids, teenagers found the car and used it as a hangout?

Maybe these other kids that used the hangout where the ones he was with. Perhaps some girl at the spot that was left by her friends was picked up by Kurt.

I disagree with the friend part in this case. He seems more a teacher who learns a group of younger people stuff about a shared interest.

I disagree with the friend part in this case. He seems more a teacher who learns a group of younger people stuff about a shared interest.

I think they were friends. Didn't they have dinner and see a movie together the night Kurt died? That sounds more like a date! It's kind of unusual to see a middle-aged man and teenage boy out together like that.

I think they were friends. Didn't they have dinner and see a movie together the night Kurt died? That sounds more like a date! It's kind of unusual to see a middle-aged man and teenage boy out together like that.

And I think Kurt saw Carillo as a mentor but Carillo possibly had the hots for Kurt. To me that is different then being friends.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UMfan77
I think they were friends. Didn't they have dinner and see a movie together the night Kurt died? That sounds more like a date! It's kind of unusual to see a middle-aged man and teenage boy out together like that.


And I think Kurt saw Carillo as a mentor but Carillo possibly had the hots for Kurt. To me that is different then being friends.

I think we can all agree that Kurt and Carillo knew each other beyond being strangers. Can we settle on that?

And where were his shoes? He was found without. Climbing without shoes?

good point. Plus, Kurt never said he was going rock climbing, he said he was going for a run. I really have a hard time believing that he spontaneously decided to go rock climbing, and without shoes on to boot.

Exactly. But even running without shoes sounds strange to me. I still wonder, among other things, if he even left Carillo's house on his own accord. If something happened ín that house that might explain why he did not have them on. If he did leave I would say he wore shoes but where are they. Maybe not that important but it could explain which theory is the right one.

I think they were friends. Didn't they have dinner and see a movie together the night Kurt died? That sounds more like a date! It's kind of unusual to see a middle-aged man and teenage boy out together like that.That's what makes Carrillo seem so shady. When I first saw this case, I thought he seemed innocent. But after reading about how he had close relationships with his students and how he went out to dinner and a movie with Kurt. He gives off this Jim Jones persona. He's an individual who probably has no trouble taking advantage of his followers.

I haven't read through this whole thread yet, but I did follow a link in this thread and a link in another thread about Kurt.

They lead to comments on other sites and message boards. In two of the posts, I noticed that a person who claimed to have gone to high school with Kurt mentioned something about a crazy woman who stole meat from people's fridges on their porches.

Somehow or other, the person describes words written in blood on the walls of the crazy person's house and "faeces" on the floor. I thought it was odd that this person claimed to have gone to school in california with Kurt, but used a british spelling of the word feces.

I'm a midwesterner and am totally unfamiliar with the west coast. I noticed that a lot of brits live in washington and/or oregon, but in california, would they be teaching/using british spelling?

A different post just mentioned Kurt's stolen armor, and this person seemed more believable, but spelled it in the british style, "armour".

Is there any significance to this? Am I just ignorant of the local customs? Are people involved in the lifestyle that Kurt and his friends participated in more likely to follow bristish spelling?

Still reading through here... on page 3 right now, and I'm wondering, since Kurt participated in these battle reenactments, with folks who were realy into their gear, and seemed to be working toward becoming more authentic with their stuff...

Is it possible that maybe Kurt had planned (and maybe carrotic or some others of the group knew about this plan, and covered it up with the "he went for a 3am run" story) to participate in an unofficial battle re-enactment that got out of hand, and he ended up either accidentally or intentionally attacked too violently? Or maybe they thought it would have been cool to practice battle on the cliff edge for more of a thrill?

I'm still not sure on what was really going on here... foul play, accident, lover's quarrel, random attack, idk.... just throwing out some ideas.

A quote from a previous post in this thread: Being a Pagan, he does have a different and unique morality that he could use to justify this murder.

I hadn't thought about this until now.... (admittedly, I know next to nothing about the different types of pagan belief systems) but about 4 years ago, a pagan man murdered his girlfriend in a park near my house. The local suburban demographic was primarily a mix of different types of christians and non-religious people with a few buddhists and muslims making up the population.

According to him, because of their religious beliefs, he then placed her body into a small stream in the park, not in an effort to conceal the murder, but because this had something to do with funeral or body disposal rituals (aside from the murder) that were part of their religion. IIRC he performed some type of ceremony at the time he placed her in the stream.

Anyone know if this is just a lie or an excuse on the part of the murderer, to make himself seem more sympathetic after killing his girlfriend, or if these are valid religious beliefs?

Tying this to the subject, Kurt was dead, and his body was found in water. Could the murderer or accidental killer or witness to the fatal accident have placed Kurt's body in the water after his death as part of a pagan religious observance?

good point. Plus, Kurt never said he was going rock climbing, he said he was going for a run. I really have a hard time believing that he spontaneously decided to go rock climbing, and without shoes on to boot.

I, too, am having a hard time believing that Kurt specifically went for a solo rock climbing trip in the dark, in the middle of the night. I'm no rock climber but I've been to those indoor places with the fake rocks and harnesses and stuff. It seems just way too dangerous to do in the dark without equipment. Do traditional rock climbers do this activity at night?

And aren't we relying on only carrotic's statement that Kurt was restless, or too hot, or couldn't sleep, or some similar excuse that explained why he left the house in the middle of the night?

Is carrotic the only person who is giving this reason for Kurt leaving at night? Was there anyone else who heard Kurt announce his intent to leave for a while or are we relying completely on the word of the last man to see Kurt alive?

Btw, I think i read somewhere that the Cariadoc (the correct spelling) had died a few years ago, is this correct?

Btw, I think i read somewhere that the Cariadoc (the correct spelling) had died a few years ago, is this correct?

Yesterday, I also read that info on this site. I think the post linked to a wiki article but I didn't follow it. IIRC, the info was that he had passed on January 1, 2007.

Still reading through here... on page 3 right now, and I'm wondering, since Kurt participated in these battle reenactments, with folks who were realy into their gear, and seemed to be working toward becoming more authentic with their stuff...

Is it possible that maybe Kurt had planned (and maybe carrotic or some others of the group knew about this plan, and covered it up with the "he went for a 3am run" story) to participate in an unofficial battle re-enactment that got out of hand, and he ended up either accidentally or intentionally attacked too violently? Or maybe they thought it would have been cool to practice battle on the cliff edge for more of a thrill?

I'm still not sure on what was really going on here... foul play, accident, lover's quarrel, random attack, idk.... just throwing out some ideas.

possible, yes. but highly unlikely. the re-enactments they shown appeared to be very harmless, plus everyone was heavily armored.

A quote from a previous post in this thread: Being a Pagan, he does have a different and unique morality that he could use to justify this murder.

I hadn't thought about this until now.... (admittedly, I know next to nothing about the different types of pagan belief systems) but about 4 years ago, a pagan man murdered his girlfriend in a park near my house. The local suburban demographic was primarily a mix of different types of christians and non-religious people with a few buddhists and muslims making up the population.

According to him, because of their religious beliefs, he then placed her body into a small stream in the park, not in an effort to conceal the murder, but because this had something to do with funeral or body disposal rituals (aside from the murder) that were part of their religion. IIRC he performed some type of ceremony at the time he placed her in the stream.

Anyone know if this is just a lie or an excuse on the part of the murderer, to make himself seem more sympathetic after killing his girlfriend, or if these are valid religious beliefs?

Tying this to the subject, Kurt was dead, and his body was found in water. Could the murderer or accidental killer or witness to the fatal accident have placed Kurt's body in the water after his death as part of a pagan religious observance?

not actually, his body was shown on the beach.

Some points I'd like to bring up about this case.

-In the segment, they mentioned that Kurt had a lot of cuts and bruises. They suggested that Kurt could have been beaten up before being thrown into the ocean. However, I question this. As someone who's surfed before, I know it's easy to be injured at the beach. Strong tides can push anyone into large rocks, particular on the shore. Injuries can be the result.

-There's a LOT of Satanic Panic going on in the segment. Kurt's friend said that Caradoc's organization was dangerous and powerful. That's going overboard; it's not like they're a mafia. While Caradoc seems rather shady himself, I doubt the individuals involved in the cult were killing people.

It'd be interesting to see if this segment had been made today. There'd probably a lot less focus on the whole 'Satanism' aspect of the case.

There's a LOT of Satanic Panic going on in the segment. Kurt's friend said that Caradoc's organization was dangerous and powerful. That's going overboard; it's not like they're a mafia. While Caradoc seems rather shady himself, I doubt the individuals involved in the cult were killing people.

It'd be interesting to see if this segment had been made today. There'd probably a lot less focus on the whole 'Satanism' aspect of the case.

While I used to write this case off as a product of the times recently, I'm not sure if that stance is all together appropriate. If you google the case a bit you'll find a few accounts that connect Kurt McFall's death to Satanism. While it is extremely likely that McFall died of injuries related to a fall from the cliffs, there also seems to have been a lot of rumors around the time of Kurt's death that linked his demise to Satanism. I don't think these rumors should be necessarily dismissed offhand as a product of the times. I think given the circumstances surrounding Kurt's life around the time of his death it is possible that his death was related to some of the activities he was dabbling in. Unfortunately the only person who knows the full extent of whatever Kurt was involved in at the time is Kurt himself. There are other people who seem to have bits and pieces of information but nobody seems to have the entire picture.

In this case it could be something as simple as an accident or something as complex as the scenario that Kurt's friend described in the segment. One thing that I have picked up in reading about this case is the area where Kurt's body was found at the time was not exactly the safest place to be especially at night. Whether this was due to a high degree of Satanic activity around that area at that time I don't know. But judging from things I've read, any number of things could have happened to Kurt and later been staged to look like what Kurt's father termed "a phony scene".

While I used to write this case off as a product of the times recently, I'm not sure if that stance is all together appropriate. If you google the case a bit you'll find a few accounts that connect Kurt McFall's death to Satanism. While it is extremely likely that McFall died of injuries related to a fall from the cliffs, there also seems to have been a lot of rumors around the time of Kurt's death that linked his demise to Satanism. I don't think these rumors should be necessarily dismissed offhand as a product of the times. I think given the circumstances surrounding Kurt's life around the time of his death it is possible that his death was related to some of the activities he was dabbling in. Unfortunately the only person who knows the full extent of whatever Kurt was involved in at the time is Kurt himself. There are other people who seem to have bits and pieces of information but nobody seems to have the entire picture.

In this case it could be something as simple as an accident or something as complex as the scenario that Kurt's friend described in the segment. One thing that I have picked up in reading about this case is the area where Kurt's body was found at the time was not exactly the safest place to be especially at night. Whether this was due to a high degree of Satanic activity around that area at that time I don't know. But judging from things I've read, any number of things could have happened to Kurt and later been staged to look like what Kurt's father termed "a phony scene".Oh, I'm not writing off the whole Satanism link. It just seems questionable how the UM segment seems to paint Caradoc's group as being some sort of sinister, powerful organization. Back in the 80's, any sort of pagan group were seen as devil worshippers bent on destruction. I do think that Caradoc is a shady fellow who might know something about Kurt's death. He seems like an individual who could easily take advantage of his followers.

I've always wondered why his father let him stay with such a weirdo. Kurt was a teen, he was clearly older. Creepy indeed.

One interesting thing I noticed about this case was either Robert Stack was pronouncing Gabriel Carrillo's name wrong or they misspelled his name. It clearly showed his name as Gabriel Carrillo in the segment, but Stack called him Carrhotic or something similar.

As far as the case goes, I really don't think there is anything unsolved or mysterious about it. It seems that he either fell or jumped off of their in a drunken stupor. There is no evidence at all that suggests he was involved in foul play.
The man's name was Gabriel Carillo. His Craft name was Caradoc ap Cador. He died about two years ago.

One interesting thing I noticed about this case was either Robert Stack was pronouncing Gabriel Carrillo's name wrong or they misspelled his name. It clearly showed his name as Gabriel Carrillo in the segment, but Stack called him Carrhotic or something similar.

As far as the case goes, I really don't think there is anything unsolved or mysterious about it. It seems that he either fell or jumped off of their in a drunken stupor. There is no evidence at all that suggests he was involved in foul play.
Gabriel Carillo's Craft name was Caradoc ap Cador. He dies of AIDS about two years ago.

Gabriel Carillo's Craft name was Caradoc ap Cador. He dies of AIDS about two years ago.

That makes me think that perhaps he put the moves on Kurt while he was at his house, and he refused, so gabriel killed him. That or he was actually physically involved with him, and they were into some type of heavy bdsm and it went awry. Since he was underage, maybe gabriel freaked out and dumped his body either alone or with the help of others.
Somehow I think a fall from a cliff like that would cause him to break something, not just give him bumps and abrasions and especially strange carvings/flogging marks on his back.

That makes me think that perhaps he put the moves on Kurt while he was at his house, and he refused, so gabriel killed him. That or he was actually physically involved with him, and they were into some type of heavy bdsm and it went awry. Since he was underage, maybe gabriel freaked out and dumped his body either alone or with the help of others.
Somehow I think a fall from a cliff like that would cause him to break something, not just give him bumps and abrasions and especially strange carvings/flogging marks on his back.

While it might not be difficult to envision a possibility that Carillo might have made advances towards Kurt, I highly doubt he killed him, especially given the two scenarios presented. Why go so far as to kill Kurt over a rejection? There is no evidence at all whatsoever that Carillo was unstable or violent in any manner. The "BDSM" thing is also rather far-fetched, IMO, much for the same reason. It's wide speculation. Just because the man may or may not have been gay doesn't mean he was a probable total nutcase.

The marks on Kurt's back may be easily explained if he slid on his back down the cliff. IIRC, I don't know if it ever was revealed whether Kurt had broken anything or not. One would assume he would've sustained at least one fracture--likely what killed him--but I don't know if we were ever told about it.

I've always wondered why his father let him stay with such a weirdo. Kurt was a teen, he was clearly older. Creepy indeed.



I thought about this too then I had the thought that maybe Kurt and Carodac (sp??) had a more intimate relationship. Part of me thinks Kurt's death might have been a suicide. I think along the lines of this because maybe Carodac wanted to end things or didn't feel as strongly for Kurt as opposed to how Kurt may have felt. I think with his own feelings for this older man and trying to cme to terms with his sexuality at a time when it might have been very taboo to "come out of the closet", maybe that's what drove Kurt to suicide.

If it was foul play, I'm still going along the lines of an intimat relationship between Kurt and Carodac but maybe Kurt wanted to go public with what was going on between him and Caradic. Either that or quite possibly there were other young boys/men Caradic was also involved with. Kurt could have been killed in order to shut him up.

I thought about this too then I had the thought that maybe Kurt and Carodac (sp??) had a more intimate relationship. Part of me thinks Kurt's death might have been a suicide. I think along the lines of this because maybe Carodac wanted to end things or didn't feel as strongly for Kurt as opposed to how Kurt may have felt. I think with his own feelings for this older man and trying to cme to terms with his sexuality at a time when it might have been very taboo to "come out of the closet", maybe that's what drove Kurt to suicide.

If it was foul play, I'm still going along the lines of an intimat relationship between Kurt and Carodac but maybe Kurt wanted to go public with what was going on between him and Caradic. Either that or quite possibly there were other young boys/men Caradic was also involved with. Kurt could have been killed in order to shut him up.

It was never implicitly stated nor implied that Carillo OR Kurt were, or could have been gay. Related points:

1. One assumes Kurt's death probably has little to do with a sexual or romantic relationship between Carillo and himself, as there is, really, no actual evidence of this. All theories stemming from it are wild speculation not based on known fact.

2. Again, just because someone is attracted to members of the same sex doesn't make them mentally disturbed, prone to jealous fits, or whatever BS some elements of the true crime media absolutely love to play up because homosexuality is still so "taboo" in our culture.



My theory is the one I think makes the most sense, logically: Kurt left the apartment. Kurt went to the beach. Kurt accidentally fell off the cliff. Kurt died as a result. There is nothing else to suggest a strong alternate theory. Nothing that's satisfied me, anyway. It was an accident.

It was never implicitly stated nor implied that Carillo OR Kurt were, or could have been gay. Related points:

1. One assumes Kurt's death probably has little to do with a sexual or romantic relationship between Carillo and himself, as there is, really, no actual evidence of this. All theories stemming from it are wild speculation not based on known fact.

2. Again, just because someone is attracted to members of the same sex doesn't make them mentally disturbed, prone to jealous fits, or whatever BS some elements of the true crime media absolutely love to play up because homosexuality is still so "taboo" in our culture.



My theory is the one I think makes the most sense, logically: Kurt left the apartment. Kurt went to the beach. Kurt accidentally fell off the cliff. Kurt died as a result. There is nothing else to suggest a strong alternate theory. Nothing that's satisfied me, anyway. It was an accident.

I don't think that anybody is singling out gays in this poster.
They are probably picking the very implied "homoerotic" vibe that episode had.
While I don't think that Carrillo had anything to do w/ Kurt's death (which evidence points to as either being an accident or suicide) I DO think that there was an intimate relationship between the two.

I think Carrillo found that by starting a pagan-styled organization and gathering a bunch young impressionable teens and men, he could certainly indulge his..."preferences." And Kurt's intersecting w/ his group was just a random occurrence.That, of course, UM played up to the hilt.

I don't think that anybody is singling out gays in this poster.
They are probably picking the very implied "homoerotic" vibe that episode had.
While I don't think that Carrillo had anything to do w/ Kurt's death (which evidence points to as either being an accident or suicide) I DO think that there was an intimate relationship between the two.

I think Carrillo found that by starting a pagan-styled organization and gathering a bunch young impressionable teens and men, he could certainly indulge his..."preferences."
And Kurt's intersecting w/ his group was just a random occurrence.That, of course, UM played up to the hilt.

It's pretty easy to find information on Caradoc's cult, although I have little tolerance to read their new-age mumbo-jumbo; nonetheless, it looks pretty obvious that it's not some evil satanist cult, just run-of-the-mill neo-pagan beliefs. Sex appears to play a large role in their worship and rituals, so it wouldn't be surprising if Kurt & Caradoc and/or others in the organization had been "intimate."

This said, I don't think Kurt's death was a homicide; it looks like an accident the father had trouble accepting. The father comes across, frankly, as someone not involved in Kurt's actual life - and in his guilt, perhaps, is trying to find a scape-goat.

Two points I'd like to bring up about this case.

-I find the whole idea that Kurt wanted to go for a swim at a beach during the night very questionable. Especially when one considers that San Francisco almost never has hot nights, even during the summer. Usually, it's cold or cool. Kurt wanted to jump in the cold water then enjoy the cold air? Also, why bother driving to the beach when someone can just take a cool shower?

-Caradoc seems more suspicious than I initially thought. During the entire interview with UM, he's constantly looking away from the camera. His explanation of Kurt going to the beach is odd as well.

Yeah, Carrhotic (? sp) was the one who made that claim, wasn't it?

I don't believe it and I think he might have had some associates/possible followers (more physically fit/agile than himself) that he called to rough up McFall, which ultimately led to his death. My guess is that Carrhotic was gay and made a pass at Kurt that night. When Kurt refused, I think Carrhotic might have called up these associates and made something up about Kurt committing an unspeakable sin against their Pagan religion or some crap like that.

I know that Carrhotic has since died. I wonder if he ever made a confession to anyone (outside of my theory of the alleged associates) or if he had writings that confessed or insinuated to having Kurt killed.

Two points I'd like to bring up about this case.

-I find the whole idea that Kurt wanted to go for a swim at a beach during the night very questionable. Especially when one considers that San Francisco almost never has hot nights, even during the summer. Usually, it's cold or cool. Kurt wanted to jump in the cold water then enjoy the cold air? Also, why bother driving to the beach when someone can just take a cool shower?

-Caradoc seems more suspicious than I initially thought. During the entire interview with UM, he's constantly looking away from the camera. His explanation of Kurt going to the beach is odd as well.

I can actually remember two very warm nights in San Francisco although this was in the late 1990's. And there are numerous people in SF that swim in the ocean regardless of the temperature.It wouldn't be MY choice, but who knows what people will do?

I think Kurt and Gabriel Carillo had a relationship that Kurt was ashamed to admit to his father and peers. Maybe he was chastised for it and decided to take his own life...I don't see how or why foul play would have been involved. Kurt and "Caradoc" knew each other long enough to know what sexual orientation each other where, so if "Caradoc" knew Kurt was straight why even make a pass at him? And if Kurt knew "Caradoc" was gay, would a pass at him really caused enough of a stir to cause "Caradoc" to order him murdered? And why would he even be staying at his apartment if he knew "Caradoc" had intimate feelings for him? Not that Kurt was homophobic or anything, but it certainly would be uncomfortable (if you were straight or gay) staying at someone's place who has feelings for you but they're not reciprocated.

I can actually remember two very warm nights in San Francisco although this was in the late 1990's. And there are numerous people in SF that swim in the ocean regardless of the temperature.It wouldn't be MY choice, but who knows what people will do?I'm not denying that SF has warm nights but I find that they tend to be rare. I checked out the weather on the date of Kurt's death, Sept. 10, 1984. It was around 60 F or so. I wouldn't think of that as being excessively warm. Not enough to warent a swim in the bay but that's just me.

Back on the subject of Caradoc. It's also possible that someone else in the cult possibly murdered Kurt. Caradoc being the leader of the cult, would have a lot of admirers. Perhaps someone in the cult saw that Caradoc favored Kurt over others. They could have become jealous enough to kill Kurt. Caradoc, fearing prosecution, had no choice but to cover up his death. This is just a thought.

It'd be interesting to hear from a former member of Caradoc's cult. They could shed light on the internal dynamics of Caradoc's cult which in turn could tell us about Kurt's death.

I'm not denying that SF has warm nights but I find that they tend to be rare. I checked out the weather on the date of Kurt's death, Sept. 10, 1984. It was around 60 F or so. I wouldn't think of that as being excessively warm. Not enough to warent a swim in the bay but that's just me.

I just watched this segment again and had the same thought you did, Zlatko. I agree with your findings. 60F is not excessively warm, nor would I imagine that someone from California would find that excessively warm. (I live in a much cooler environment and I would not classify 60F as "too hot to sleep.") However, I wish the UM segment had addressed the heat situation in the apartment building itself. Was the heat on? Was it broken and making the apartment really warm? If that was the case, it could have explained why Kurt would have left the apartment, saying that "it's too hot."

That aside... I might be missing something, but it seems like Caradoc was the last one who saw Kurt McFall alive. I, too, find it odd that the two of them went to dinner and a movie on the night before Kurt died. More so, I find it very strange that he was spending nights at Caradoc's apartment, especially given the age difference between the two.

I have many problems with Caradoc's story, all of which have previously been discussed in detail:

1. How does someone go running without shoes? (Unless... I have heard that if you're running in the sand, it's a better aerobic workout. I also have friends who subscribe to the theory that its better on your knees if you run barefoot. Maybe someone else can clarify that.) I cannot IMAGINE someone going rock climbing without shoes. That just seems like a bad idea in general.

2. What happened to his belt buckle? He had a belt on, but the buckle was missing, in addition to his shirt.

Actually, the more I think about this, it sounds to me like Kurt may have been asleep on the couch with his shoes and shirt off. I'm purely speculating here, but Caradoc may have made sexual advances on him that evening. Kurt said no, and perhaps that got Caradoc mad, since he had taken him out to dinner and a movie earlier and felt that Kurt "owed him". Maybe Caradoc attempted to use force on Kurt, which would explain how his belt buckle was missing/broken. I could see the two of them getting into a heated argument, with Kurt getting up and leaving the apartment without his shoes, socks, or shirt. Caradoc followed... they ended up on the cliff and Caradoc pushed him over out of fear that Kurt was going to tell.

There are too many unanswered questions in this case for me to think this was a plain accident. I don't think Kurt's death was a satanic ritual, but I believe that Caradoc knew more than he was letting on in his interview. I wonder if the police interviewed Caradoc's neighbors. Did they hear anything? Did they do a search of Caradoc's apartment, the last known location of Kurt? Did they find his belt buckle?

This is one of those segments to which I alluded in my "elided homosexual advances" thread. To me it seems obvious that Carodoc was gay, and McFall's spending the night in his apartment sent off several alarm bells. No evidence suggests they were lovers, but the episode omitted enough details to hint at a mystery that I don't think the evidence supports, which is to say: I see no evidence of foul play, only accidental death precipitated by feelings beyond young McFall's (he was a teenager, remember) ability to control.

I certainly respect your opinion, thinwhiteduke. I have a hard time believing it was an accidental fall, especially considering that they didn't find any alcohol in Kurt's system. Sad, I know, but if there had been even a trace of alcohol in Kurt's system, I'd be more likely to accept it was an accidental death.

Admittedly the segment looks spooky because of the Satanic Cult angle, and as a result the producers inserted a few clues which to my eyes look like red herrings.

For example, McFall's body found without shoes. What if the tide had stripped his body of shoes? It's certainly possible that in the middle of the night he put on his shoes without socks to go for a walk, then slipped down that cliff (causing the cuts and abrasions).

I don't deny that Caradoc didn't tell the whole truth: going for a swim in the middle of the night is bizarre. But I don't see any reason to suspect him of murder other than his wearing tacky glasses, chanting, and having a crush on McFall.

I can actually remember two very warm nights in San Francisco although this was in the late 1990's. And there are numerous people in SF that swim in the ocean regardless of the temperature.It wouldn't be MY choice, but who knows what people will do?

I've been living in SF all my life, and hot or cold, no one would ever in their right mind go out on a hike deep into Land's End at 3 in the morning. No one. If Kurt was having trouble sleeping, he'd probably have watched some TV or something; not venture off into a place notorious for abductions and murders alone and in the early hours of the morning.

I don't know what the hell you guys are thinking believing that this death was accidental and that Caradoc wasn't involved. The fact that his cult has openly admitted to participating in sexual rituals (and not just limited to heterosexual ones either), AND the fact that he was involved in sex scandals with several young and male members of his cult leads me to believe that it was pretty damn likely he was the one responsible for ending Kurt's life.

As stated by the others, I believe Caradoc made a pass at Kurt and Kurt was taken disgustingly aback by it. Feeling angry and betrayed, I believe that Caradoc probably rounded up a few of his guys and committed a sort of ritual type killing on him. After all, the injuries on his back did not reflect those of having fallen off the rocks, and more like those from a whip. It is highly plausible that it was from his own belt. Its clear to me that Kurt, like so many other adolescent boys, was feeling painfully lonely and in dire need of some friendship. When you're young and searching for guidance, going to a movie and having dinner with a grown man doesn't seem creepy. Not until you've caught on what that person's real intentions are.

Its hard to know that Caradoc's dead and justice will never be served, even if this case is solved. But, that's life.

I'm not denying that SF has warm nights but I find that they tend to be rare. I checked out the weather on the date of Kurt's death, Sept. 10, 1984. It was around 60 F or so. I wouldn't think of that as being excessively warm. Not enough to warent a swim in the bay but that's just me.

Back on the subject of Caradoc. It's also possible that someone else in the cult possibly murdered Kurt. Caradoc being the leader of the cult, would have a lot of admirers. Perhaps someone in the cult saw that Caradoc favored Kurt over others. They could have become jealous enough to kill Kurt. Caradoc, fearing prosecution, had no choice but to cover up his death. This is just a thought.

It'd be interesting to hear from a former member of Caradoc's cult. They could shed light on the internal dynamics of Caradoc's cult which in turn could tell us about Kurt's death.

I think the day this case will be solved is the day that one of the members is about to die of guilt and spills the beans on what really happened, because I damn well know at least one of the cult members knows how Kurt died and who did it. But cults are more secretive than Soviet Russia-era KGB, so its impossible that this will ever occur.

Let's not overestimate the power of this cult. From the visual evidence presented on UM, the cultists looked like your usual gaggle of nerds and malcontents. Is there something UM isn't showing?

The lifeguards that discovered Kurt's body noted that there appeared to be "no obvious external trauma" and that his body was in "fairly good condition". How on Earth could this be classified as a homicide? How exactly did Caradoc and his cult kill Kurt if his body was found in that condition? The coroner's report only noted cuts and abrasions on his back and made no mention of defensive wounds. And Kurt's father said in the segment that his son was physically able enough to hold his own and that it would have taken several people to overpower him. As creepy as Caradoc appeared to be, he also seemed to bring up a good point when he said if he wanted someone murdered, why would he do it to someone who was staying at his house and who's father knew he was staying there? I really think this was just a tragic accident, and the only reason it was profiled on UM was because of the whole cult angle.

I've been living in SF all my life, and hot or cold, no one would ever in their right mind go out on a hike deep into Land's End at 3 in the morning. No one. If Kurt was having trouble sleeping, he'd probably have watched some TV or something; not venture off into a place notorious for abductions and murders alone and in the early hours of the morning.
He was seventeen, right? An age at which lots of kids do stupid things, especially if, as you and I both claim, it looks like he fled Caradoc's apartment.

The fact that his cult has openly admitted to participating in sexual rituals (and not just limited to heterosexual ones either), AND the fact that he was involved in sex scandals with several young and male members of his cult leads me to believe that it was pretty damn likely he was the one responsible for ending Kurt's life.

Now we're getting something juicy! Have you a link?

After all, the injuries on his back did not reflect those of having fallen off the rocks, and more like those from a whip. It is highly plausible that it was from his own belt.

Was this mentioned in the coroner's report?

I was thinking about this case recently. I still believe that the evidence could just as easily point toward an accidental death.

It's not inconceivable that Kurt could have decided to go to the beach. Keeping in mind that the Coast Guard was not able to determine precisely where Kurt entered the water, I think he could have gone climbing on the rocks and lost his footing, or he could have jumped in to the water. In either event, I think Kurt wound up in the water and unconscious. He then drowned or died from blunt force trauma. The ocean currents could have separated his shoes and belt buckle from the body before it washed ashore.

There is no way to say the beer cans are related to Kurt McFall's death. The cans could have already been there when Kurt pulled up. Or, a wino or some teens could have disposed of the cans in or around Kurt's abandoned car - the car door was hanging wide open in the UM re-enactment. Someone could have been in Kurt's car. Further, the toxicology tests did not detect alcohol in Kurt's system. Assuming the abandoned car and beer cans were a "phony scene" as suggested by Kurt's father, what killer would leave the incriminating beer cans behind knowing that the victim had not actually consumed the alcohol?

Finally, if Kurt was in fear for his life because of some secret he uncovered in the cult, why would he willingly spend the night with the leader whom Kurt surmised was plotting to destroy him? I am also reminded of Caradoc's argument that Kurt's Dad knew Kurt was spending the night at Caradoc's apartment, would that really be the best time to commit a murder?

Is Caradoc a homosexual? I don't know and neither does anyone else posting here. He did die of AIDS and his religion supposedly did involve some sexual practices the details of which are unknown, so draw your own conclusions. Regardless, there is not one shred of evidence or proof that the man's sexual preference or the cult's alleged sexual practices have anything to do with McFall's death anymore than the "Satanic panic" inferences suggested by UM.

Let's not overestimate the power of this cult. From the visual evidence presented on UM, the cultists looked like your usual gaggle of nerds and malcontents. Is there something UM isn't showing?

So nerdy and softspoken people aren't capable of acting maliciously? If you ask me, those socially awkward types are the creepiest out there.

I was very worried about the malicious manner in which the woman in the D&D drag treated her hair.

The lifeguards that discovered Kurt's body noted that there appeared to be "no obvious external trauma" and that his body was in "fairly good condition". How on Earth could this be classified as a homicide? How exactly did Caradoc and his cult kill Kurt if his body was found in that condition? The coroner's report only noted cuts and abrasions on his back and made no mention of defensive wounds. And Kurt's father said in the segment that his son was physically able enough to hold his own and that it would have taken several people to overpower him. As creepy as Caradoc appeared to be, he also seemed to bring up a good point when he said if he wanted someone murdered, why would he do it to someone who was staying at his house and who's father knew he was staying there? I really think this was just a tragic accident, and the only reason it was profiled on UM was because of the whole cult angle.

Isn't it possible that this wasn't premediated? It's possible that Kurt and Caradoc and maybe in some other members of the cult got into an argument on top of th cliffs for whatever reason and Kurt was shoved and fell off the cliffs. If Kurt wasn't expecting the argument to get physical all it would take would be one good quick shove and there would be no defensive wounds and the marks would be the same as if he accidentally fell. If the murder wasn't planned then that would explain why Caradoc would be stupid enough to kill someone who was staying with him. Either the argument was spontaneous or they had only planned to scare him and things went wrong. Hell the could have been staging one of their battles or rituals, he was shoved during the course of it and fell. Stranger things have happened.

It's possible, but once again, as presented onscreen the only people who need fear Caradac's cult are nervous legislators.

Isn't it possible that this wasn't premediated? It's possible that Kurt and Caradoc and maybe in some other members of the cult got into an argument on top of th cliffs for whatever reason and Kurt was shoved and fell off the cliffs. If Kurt wasn't expecting the argument to get physical all it would take would be one good quick shove and there would be no defensive wounds and the marks would be the same as if he accidentally fell. If the murder wasn't planned then that would explain why Caradoc would be stupid enough to kill someone who was staying with him. Either the argument was spontaneous or they had only planned to scare him and things went wrong. Hell the could have been staging one of their battles or rituals, he was shoved during the course of it and fell. Stranger things have happened.

If this were true, how did they remove Kurt's shoes? Did they scale down the cliff to remove his shoes to make it look like he went swimming? Or did they forceably remove them before they pushed him? The latter is unlikely since there were no defensive wounds.

If this were true, how did they remove Kurt's shoes? Did they scale down the cliff to remove his shoes to make it look like he went swimming? Or did they forceably remove them before they pushed him? The latter is unlikely since there were no defensive wounds.


Yeah, but the first option is NOT out of the realm of possibility.

Here's my take based on the UM segment:

Carodac didn't kill McFall, but he lied about events that evening. He hit on McFall, who panicked and ran out of the house; this explains why he was found without shoes, socks, and shirt. He got in his car, drove out to that remote area to clear his head, and accidentally tumbled off the cliff.

The missing belt buckle is one of those red herrings UM liked to linger over. If police had found a lighter in McFall's pocket, Robert Stack would have intoned, "Curiously, a cigarette lighter was found in McFall's pocket. Kurt's father, however, said Kurt did not smoke."

Here's my take based on the UM segment:

Carodac didn't kill McFall, but he lied about events that evening. He hit on McFall, who panicked and ran out of the house; this explains why he was found without shoes, socks, and shirt. He got in his car, drove out to that remote area to clear his head, and accidentally tumbled off the cliff.

The missing belt buckle is one of those red herrings UM liked to linger over. If police had found a lighter in McFall's pocket, Robert Stack would have intoned, "Curiously, a cigarette lighter was found in McFall's pocket. Kurt's father, however, said Kurt did not smoke."

Things like that can be pretty significant though. If you're a Criminal Justice major like me, then you'll know exactly where I'm coming from.

I was good friends with Kurt in high school. I was one year ahead of him. He used to ask me a lot of questions about spirituality, and the occult, (he knew I have a sister who was involved in the occult). We had many discussions about this topic. I asked Kurt quite bluntly if he was still a virgin, and he said yes. I warned him away from any occult activity, due to the fact that it was well known that there were/are satanic cults in SF, and they do practice sacrifice. A virgin would be like finding a gold bar to them. I explained to him how it works in those types of cults, and I verified with my sister that human sacrifice is alive and well and practiced still. I recommended to Kurt at the time that he do self-study rather than find a group to follow. I guess he didn't listen, to his detriment.

There are several people speculating about things involving Kurt and his personal life on this forum. I can tell you that a lot of this speculation is flat-out wrong. Kurt did not drink, ever. He did not do drugs, ever. He was a virgin, and he was heterosexual, not homosexual. He was a fairly quiet, intelligent guy, and he had a vast curiosity about life in general. He was kind of a 'nerd' type, but was also friendly and fairly popular in high school. He loved to have fun, and I saw him at some house parties, and some wrap parties given after school plays-I was into drama, as well as on the yearbook staff, and the newspaper staff. Kurt was into those things as well, and in my senior yearbook, there are a couple of club photos where we are standing by each other. At those parties, he never drank, he never smoked, he never drugged. We talked a lot because I never did those things either, and we shared a lot of interest in life. Kurt was also fairly naive, something I wasn't, due to our different upbringings.

What the show doesn't talk about, and what people who were close to Kurt knew, was that they discovered not only whip marks on his back, but carvings in his flesh that were ritualistic in nature. He died of massive blood loss, not drowning. His body was not damaged as would be typical of a fall down a cliff, and there wasn't any indication of water in his lungs. He was bled to death. And this was done with a knife. The police for some reason decided not to release this information to the general public, at the time, they stated it was because they had an active investigation going, and didn't want to release information that the killer would know, and they didn't want to panic the public. However, they did tell our school about what happened, and Kurt's dad knew about it, of course. I believe the police told the school in hopes that maybe one of Kurt's friends would have info that would lead to the killer. Obviously, the police never did make an arrest. Kurt's case is still unsolved, and anyone stating otherwise is lying. No one has ever been arrested or convicted in the murder of Kurt.

On a side note, when I was a junior in high school, I had gone to Fort Funston with my best friend and her family. Fort Funston has these bunkers, all lined up that go underground. The Fort isn't used as a military base anymore, and in fact, they had welded all the thick steel doors shut on the bunkers. While we were walking around, my friend and I got bored, and started running ahead of the rest of her family. We would run from one bunker to the next, running down the steps to the steel doors, slap our hands against the door, and run up the steps to the next bunker to repeat the process. At about the 5th bunker, we ran down the steps, slammed our hands on the door, and it popped open a little. It surprised the hell out of us, because the welding around the door looked intact, and it didn't look like it should be open. I found a big rock, and lugged it over, while my friend struggled to open the door more-it was very heavy. We muscled the door open, and used the rock to prop it open. Across from the open door was a wall, about 4 feet away from the door. There was this blackish-brown colored stuff all over the wall, it looked like someone threw paint on the wall. We walked in, and you could only move to the right of the opening, it was a hall that went about 10 feet. We walked down the hall, and the place opened up to the left into a huge room. In the center of the room on the floor was a huge circular stone, it was a white stone with a pentacle carved deeply into it. It was about 8 feet around. In the carved pentacle, there was more of the brownish-black substance dried and thick. We realized it must be blood, which meant what was on the wall had to be blood too. It scared the crap out of us. We ran and got her parents and her sister, and took them back to the bunker so they could see it. We were all freaked out and scared, and decided to leave immediately. We removed the rock and let the door swing shut. When we got back to my friend's house in Concord, her mom called the park rangers in SF and reported what we found. They never followed up with us, we have no idea if they checked it out, or even though we were serious at all.

I always wondered if the people who were doing sacrifices there were the same ones who murdered Kurt. His body was found close to where this bunker was.

Empresssheryl,

Thanks for your post. I have always had an immense interest in Kurt's case, so hearing from someone who knew Kurt personally was really cool. Did you ever meet or have any interaction with Gabriel Carillo aka Caradoc, the leader of the cult Kurt was involved with?

Also, do you know the official status on Kurt's case? Is it still being investigated by anyone? If I remember correctly, the coroner ruled "undetermined" with regard to Kurt's death and the case went to the homicide division of the SF PD, but what happened after that? Do you think the police botched it or didn't investigate? It always seemed odd to me that the case just sort of went into limbo after that.

Do you know Kurt's Dad or how he's doing today? I always felt really bad for him. He seemed like a good father from what little we saw of him on UM.

The police for some reason decided not to release this information to the general public, at the time, they stated it was because they had an active investigation going, and didn't want to release information that the killer would know, and they didn't want to panic the public. However, they did tell our school about what happened, and Kurt's dad knew about it, of course. I believe the police told the school in hopes that maybe one of Kurt's friends would have info that would lead to the killer. Obviously, the police never did make an arrest.

Is this common practice?

Echoing Justin's statements thank you for your posting Empresssheryl. This is now the second report/confirmation we have about satanic activity in the SF area in the mid eighties in particular around the area where Kurt McFall was found.

To have now two reports linking satanic activity to his case unfortunately leads me to believe that Kurt did not die of natural causes. I'm not entirely sure if I've heard about the details about the abrasions on Kurt's body before but obviously now we have the UM segment, the various reports found via Google and now this account all linking Kurt's death to satanism.

A few points: Given that everything I've read about Kurt's death and satanism is true then first off the UM segment was poorly produced. I'm not blaming UM for this as Empresssheryl mentions the police held back information from the public but the segment does lead the average viewer to believe Kurt's death was an accident. There is no plausible evidence in the segment that Kurt was into satanism (other than the word of his friends and family) and the activities that Kurt was involved in while some might perceive as eccentric were also portrayed as quite harmless.

Second I wonder why there was never a more aggressive investigation into Kurt's death? If satanism can be linked to Kurt's death then Kurt's father is completely correct when he stated "This case needs to be investigated as a murder". I also remain confused as to this day as to why the police in this case refused to cooperate with UM and grant them an interview as to the progress of the case. Strange.

The link we are missing here is what exactly were the activities Kurt McFall was involved in prior to his death. If we assume his death is linked somehow to Satanism...was Carillo's group as alleged on UM a satanic cult or were the people who murdered Kurt just linked to Carillo's group and murdered Kurt on their own initiative?

I was good friends with Kurt in high school. I was one year ahead of him. He used to ask me a lot of questions about spirituality, and the occult, (he knew I have a sister who was involved in the occult). We had many discussions about this topic. I asked Kurt quite bluntly if he was still a virgin, and he said yes. I warned him away from any occult activity, due to the fact that it was well known that there were/are satanic cults in SF, and they do practice sacrifice. A virgin would be like finding a gold bar to them. I explained to him how it works in those types of cults, and I verified with my sister that human sacrifice is alive and well and practiced still. I recommended to Kurt at the time that he do self-study rather than find a group to follow. I guess he didn't listen, to his detriment.

There are several people speculating about things involving Kurt and his personal life on this forum. I can tell you that a lot of this speculation is flat-out wrong. Kurt did not drink, ever. He did not do drugs, ever. He was a virgin, and he was heterosexual, not homosexual. He was a fairly quiet, intelligent guy, and he had a vast curiosity about life in general. He was kind of a 'nerd' type, but was also friendly and fairly popular in high school. He loved to have fun, and I saw him at some house parties, and some wrap parties given after school plays-I was into drama, as well as on the yearbook staff, and the newspaper staff. Kurt was into those things as well, and in my senior yearbook, there are a couple of club photos where we are standing by each other. At those parties, he never drank, he never smoked, he never drugged. We talked a lot because I never did those things either, and we shared a lot of interest in life. Kurt was also fairly naive, something I wasn't, due to our different upbringings.

What the show doesn't talk about, and what people who were close to Kurt knew, was that they discovered not only whip marks on his back, but carvings in his flesh that were ritualistic in nature. He died of massive blood loss, not drowning. His body was not damaged as would be typical of a fall down a cliff, and there wasn't any indication of water in his lungs. He was bled to death. And this was done with a knife. The police for some reason decided not to release this information to the general public, at the time, they stated it was because they had an active investigation going, and didn't want to release information that the killer would know, and they didn't want to panic the public. However, they did tell our school about what happened, and Kurt's dad knew about it, of course. I believe the police told the school in hopes that maybe one of Kurt's friends would have info that would lead to the killer. Obviously, the police never did make an arrest. Kurt's case is still unsolved, and anyone stating otherwise is lying. No one has ever been arrested or convicted in the murder of Kurt.

On a side note, when I was a junior in high school, I had gone to Fort Funston with my best friend and her family. Fort Funston has these bunkers, all lined up that go underground. The Fort isn't used as a military base anymore, and in fact, they had welded all the thick steel doors shut on the bunkers. While we were walking around, my friend and I got bored, and started running ahead of the rest of her family. We would run from one bunker to the next, running down the steps to the steel doors, slap our hands against the door, and run up the steps to the next bunker to repeat the process. At about the 5th bunker, we ran down the steps, slammed our hands on the door, and it popped open a little. It surprised the hell out of us, because the welding around the door looked intact, and it didn't look like it should be open. I found a big rock, and lugged it over, while my friend struggled to open the door more-it was very heavy. We muscled the door open, and used the rock to prop it open. Across from the open door was a wall, about 4 feet away from the door. There was this blackish-brown colored stuff all over the wall, it looked like someone threw paint on the wall. We walked in, and you could only move to the right of the opening, it was a hall that went about 10 feet. We walked down the hall, and the place opened up to the left into a huge room. In the center of the room on the floor was a huge circular stone, it was a white stone with a pentacle carved deeply into it. It was about 8 feet around. In the carved pentacle, there was more of the brownish-black substance dried and thick. We realized it must be blood, which meant what was on the wall had to be blood too. It scared the crap out of us. We ran and got her parents and her sister, and took them back to the bunker so they could see it. We were all freaked out and scared, and decided to leave immediately. We removed the rock and let the door swing shut. When we got back to my friend's house in Concord, her mom called the park rangers in SF and reported what we found. They never followed up with us, we have no idea if they checked it out, or even though we were serious at all.

I always wondered if the people who were doing sacrifices there were the same ones who murdered Kurt. His body was found close to where this bunker was.

Wow, this is some story. I camped at Fort Funston at elementary school, and thank God I didn't run into the same **** you did.

I'm even more convinced now that McFall didn't die of natural causes.

What the show doesn't talk about, and what people who were close to Kurt knew, was that they discovered not only whip marks on his back, but carvings in his flesh that were ritualistic in nature. He died of massive blood loss, not drowning. His body was not damaged as would be typical of a fall down a cliff, and there wasn't any indication of water in his lungs. He was bled to death. And this was done with a knife. The police for some reason decided not to release this information to the general public, at the time, they stated it was because they had an active investigation going, and didn't want to release information that the killer would know, and they didn't want to panic the public. However, they did tell our school about what happened, and Kurt's dad knew about it, of course. I believe the police told the school in hopes that maybe one of Kurt's friends would have info that would lead to the killer.

I too appreciate your post, empressharyl, but I would have to disagree with this part. The police are not going to withold information to not "panic the public" and then release this information to a school full of teenagers. What better way to spread panic than to tell a bunch of high school gossipy teenagers? Isn't it more likely that what was being spread around in the school was the result of speculation and rumors about what happened to Kurt? All of these carvings on the flesh and whip marks where not reported by the lifeguard who discovered Kurt's body. He stated on UM that his body did not have any apparent signs of external trauama, other than a few cuts, and his body was relatively clean. I'm sure the lifeguard would have noticed ritualistic cuts on Kurt's body. And they did state on UM that he died from blood loss, but that could have been the result of an accidental fall from the cliff. Do you believe that Caradoc had a hand in Kurt's death?

It is very interesting hearing from somebody that knew Kurt. It is always hard to really know "what" these individuals featured on the show were actually like, what their personality was like, what their voices sounded like, what their senses of humor were like, and so on. I wish more people who knew the victims personally would post on this board. I definitely think everyone here somewhat "attaches" themselves to the victims and almost feels as if they know them. So, I think it is great when it happens and it really gives us some insight that we may have not thought of before. It is also very interesting in regards to the satanic carvings, as I had no clue on that beforehand. The whole situation is very interesting and very tragic. Do you happen to know what Kurt's dad is up to these days? Is he still in the area, still pushing for an answer in this case?

I too appreciate your post, empressharyl, but I would have to disagree with this part. The police are not going to withold information to not "panic the public" and then release this information to a school full of teenagers. What better way to spread panic than to tell a bunch of high school gossipy teenagers? Isn't it more likely that what was being spread around in the school was the result of speculation and rumors about what happened to Kurt?

Exactly my problem with the poster's theory. Why on earth would you withold information from the public yet confide in the intelligence, diligence, and sensitivty of high school students?

I too appreciate your post, empressharyl, but I would have to disagree with this part. The police are not going to withold information to not "panic the public" and then release this information to a school full of teenagers. What better way to spread panic than to tell a bunch of high school gossipy teenagers? Isn't it more likely that what was being spread around in the school was the result of speculation and rumors about what happened to Kurt? All of these carvings on the flesh and whip marks where not reported by the lifeguard who discovered Kurt's body. He stated on UM that his body did not have any apparent signs of external trauama, other than a few cuts, and his body was relatively clean. I'm sure the lifeguard would have noticed ritualistic cuts on Kurt's body. And they did state on UM that he died from blood loss, but that could have been the result of an accidental fall from the cliff. Do you believe that Caradoc had a hand in Kurt's death?

I wouldn't put too much stock in the lifeguard's assessment of the body. I would be more interested in reading the coroner's report of the body because a layman's viewpoint is often subjective.

Being that empressharyl knew Kurt I'm guessing that he/she was privy to information not disclosed in the UM as to the exact nature of these abrasions. RS described them as numerous cuts and abrasions scoring Kurt's body which to me sounds significant. Also remember Kurt apparently "bled out" significantly prior to his death (according to empressharyl it was the cause of his death) and I wonder if just simple abrasions caused from a fall would have caused him to lose that much blood? I'm not saying it isn't possible but I'm thinking perhaps Kurt had far deeper wounds which were created with some type of intention behind them.

As far as the police go...I still find it odd that in a case of the death of a teenager where there was at least the suspicion of foul play that they wouldn't have one representative appear on nationally broadcasted television program to discuss the case. So that being said I'm not exactly sure what to make of the police's handling of this case.

Since this case has been brought back up again I thought I might revisit the scene where Kurt's car was found on the night of his death. UM notes that the scene yielded a number of interesting clues:

- Kurt's car was found interestingly enough abandoned on a golf course
- Scores of empty beer bottles were found in and around Kurt's vehicle
- His prized suit of armor was missing from the trunk
- His belongings (keys, cash, license) were found scattered inside the car
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The question of inebriation looms large over this case. If Kurt was indeed inebriated at the time of his death it would probably explain both the beer bottles scattered around his car, the place where Kurt's car was located and also the likely cause of Kurt's death.

The problem is that according to Kurt's father, the autopsy didn't find any alcohol in Kurt's system and certainly not enough alcohol to justify a scenario that would have Kurt consuming all of the beer bottles found around his car.

The first question that comes to mind is why was Kurt's car found on a golf course to begin with. Why would anyone park their car there knowingly unless they were inebriated?

Next if we can dismiss the notion that Kurt was drunk it also makes an accident falling off the cliffs extremely unlikely as only a fool would go rock climbing (especially in an area in which they were unfamiliar with) under the cover of darkness.

According to empressharyl Kurt did not drown, so we can dismiss the fact that a late night swim gone wrong was the cause of Kurt's death.

The fact that Kurt's car was found in disarray could prove to be a red herring in enough of itself due to the time lapse in time between finding Kurt and locating his vehicle. The UM segment mentions that Kurt's car was found one full day after he died so that leaves at least a 24 hour window in which vandals could have rifled through Kurt's car. This leaves the possibility open that the reason Kurt's car was found in disarray could have had nothing to do with how he died. It does not however explain why the car at the bizarre spot where it was located.

What is interesting however is that (as far as we know) no items seem to have been missing from the car except for Kurt's suit of armor. The keys, license and even money that Kurt kept in the glove compartment while found in disarray were all left intact. I'm assuming that the vehicle was found unlocked or otherwise compromised when it was located due to the fact that there were beer bottles found inside the vehicle as well.

Finally it is interesting to note that articles of clothing were missing from Kurt's body. His shirt, socks, shoes and belt buckle were all missing. While it is possible that Kurt drove to the beach without a shirt the disappearance of the other items are somewhat disturbing. I suppose we can write them off as being lost at sea but for me the missing belt buckle especially is intriguing. If Kurt was indeed murdered by a Satanic cult would these items be things that they would want to retain as remnants of their human sacrifice?
======================
I think what we have here folks is a homicide. Kurt was likely beaten/stabbed/cut and then left to bleed out near the ocean hoping that tide would erase possible forensic evidence that might have been left on the body.

The state in which his car was found could either be a "phony scene" as his dad alleges set up by the killers to make it look like Kurt's death was the result of him being inebriated or it could just be the case of people stumbling on the car after it was abandoned on the golf course and unknowingly compromising the crime scene.

I probably ascribe to the former scenario of it being a "phony scene" but given that Kurt's vehicle was not located for 24 hrs, anything is possible.

Empresssheryl,

Thanks for your post. I have always had an immense interest in Kurt's case, so hearing from someone who knew Kurt personally was really cool. Did you ever meet or have any interaction with Gabriel Carillo aka Caradoc, the leader of the cult Kurt was involved with?

Also, do you know the official status on Kurt's case? Is it still being investigated by anyone? If I remember correctly, the coroner ruled "undetermined" with regard to Kurt's death and the case went to the homicide division of the SF PD, but what happened after that? Do you think the police botched it or didn't investigate? It always seemed odd to me that the case just sort of went into limbo after that.

Do you know Kurt's Dad or how he's doing today? I always felt really bad for him. He seemed like a good father from what little we saw of him on UM.

Hi there,

I did not know Gabriel Carillo. As a trained therapist, I will say that in watching the UM interview with him, it is clear that he is lying. His body language, and his inability to stop the shifting in his eyes in a specific direction, along with his microexpressions give him away. I do not know how involved he was with Kurt's death, though I do believe he was involved somehow. I do know that the cult he began still exists. SFPD in my opinion botched this investigation. But, if you look at the fact that only about 36% of all murder cases in SF get solved, then botching murder investigations is par for the course for this police department. (That number has increased slightly since 2004)

Kurt's case is still considered open, as far as I know. I do not believe it is being actively investigated, though, it is just 'open'. The only reason I know this is because I have a couple of friends who work for SFPD, and who work in City Hall in SF.

I do not know Kurt's dad. I feel bad that he has never received any closure in this matter, and it also saddens me to see people trying to paint his son in a light that he doesn't belong in. As Tom McFall said in the UM interview, Kurt had no drugs or alcohol in his system, and he was an experienced mountain climber and diver. He would not have done something as stupid as going to a cliff at Land's End, and get drunk and fall off of a cliff.

Plus, the evidence simply doesn't point to that anyway. They never ruled homocide for sure as cause of death, I don't know why. Maybe because SFPD thought that keeping it 'undetermined' would make someone get sloppy, and get caught. I also don't know why they decided to release information to the high school that they considered was too sensitive to release to the public at large, but that's what they did. Personally, I think it was a chance they took to try to find someone who knew what happened that was close to Kurt.

Exactly my problem with the poster's theory. Why on earth would you withold information from the public yet confide in the intelligence, diligence, and sensitivty of high school students?

I believe the police took the chance hoping to find a close friend of Kurt's who might know something important. Also, friends of Kurts already knew most of those details-I can only assume they found out from Kurt's dad, or other relatives of Kurt.

It does make SFPD look fairly incompetent in how they handled his case, and I don't know how much actual effort they put into the case overall. Their murder conviction rate is abysmal, at the time it was about 36% at best.

Is this common practice?

I have no idea, as I am not a police homocide investigator. It seems kind of stupid to me that they would do this, honestly. But the reality is that the kids who knew Kurt were already aware of most of it. I assume they got the info from Kurt's dad, or relatives.

Echoing Justin's statements thank you for your posting Empresssheryl. This is now the second report/confirmation we have about satanic activity in the SF area in the mid eighties in particular around the area where Kurt McFall was found.

To have now two reports linking satanic activity to his case unfortunately leads me to believe that Kurt did not die of natural causes. I'm not entirely sure if I've heard about the details about the abrasions on Kurt's body before but obviously now we have the UM segment, the various reports found via Google and now this account all linking Kurt's death to satanism.

A few points: Given that everything I've read about Kurt's death and satanism is true then first off the UM segment was poorly produced. I'm not blaming UM for this as Empresssheryl mentions the police held back information from the public but the segment does lead the average viewer to believe Kurt's death was an accident. There is no plausible evidence in the segment that Kurt was into satanism (other than the word of his friends and family) and the activities that Kurt was involved in while some might perceive as eccentric were also portrayed as quite harmless.

Second I wonder why there was never a more aggressive investigation into Kurt's death? If satanism can be linked to Kurt's death then Kurt's father is completely correct when he stated "This case needs to be investigated as a murder". I also remain confused as to this day as to why the police in this case refused to cooperate with UM and grant them an interview as to the progress of the case. Strange.

The link we are missing here is what exactly were the activities Kurt McFall was involved in prior to his death. If we assume his death is linked somehow to Satanism...was Carillo's group as alleged on UM a satanic cult or were the people who murdered Kurt just linked to Carillo's group and murdered Kurt on their own initiative?

I don't know if Carillo's group has any black magic/satanic elements to it, but it does still exist. Here is a link to one of the pages of his cult's site- http://www.feritradition.org/witcheye/ironpent.html

I believe that SFPD really didn't investigate this murder as well as they should. If you watch the UM story on Kurt, you will hear things that don't mesh with what they are trying to say is an accident. Things like 'he died of massive blood loss', and 'his body was in fairly good condition'. If he fell down a rocky cliff, he would have had lots of broken bones, and most likely, a broken neck. But he didn't have those injuries. And if he drowned, and had only minor lacerations as they tried to claim, then he would have had water in his lungs, and he certainly wouldn't have died from massive blood loss. It's clear that they are doing a cover-up. Why, I don't know. Maybe because they wanted to sweep it under the rug, due to the nature of his death.

Wow, this is some story. I camped at Fort Funston at elementary school, and thank God I didn't run into the same **** you did.

I'm even more convinced now that McFall didn't die of natural causes.

I never did go back to Fort Funston after that. What I saw was very frightening, and especially after talking to my sister and finding out that there are active cults in SF who do sacrifice, it was enough to keep me away. I did tell Kurt about all of this, I wish he would have listened to me.

I too appreciate your post, empressharyl, but I would have to disagree with this part. The police are not going to withold information to not "panic the public" and then release this information to a school full of teenagers. What better way to spread panic than to tell a bunch of high school gossipy teenagers? Isn't it more likely that what was being spread around in the school was the result of speculation and rumors about what happened to Kurt? All of these carvings on the flesh and whip marks where not reported by the lifeguard who discovered Kurt's body. He stated on UM that his body did not have any apparent signs of external trauama, other than a few cuts, and his body was relatively clean. I'm sure the lifeguard would have noticed ritualistic cuts on Kurt's body. And they did state on UM that he died from blood loss, but that could have been the result of an accidental fall from the cliff. Do you believe that Caradoc had a hand in Kurt's death?

Well, you can disagree if you want, but that's how it happened. In my opinion, SFPD bungled this investigation badly, so it's not that surprising that they would consider it a chance worth taking to inform the school in hopes of finding a friend of Kurt's who may know something. Kurt did not have any injuries that are consistent with a fall down a cliff. No broken bones, no broken neck. The lacerations that were on his back were more consistent with whip marks, and weren't deep enough for him to bleed out. He was stabbed. That's what killed him. I don't know if Carillo killed him outright, but I do believe he was involved.

It is very interesting hearing from somebody that knew Kurt. It is always hard to really know "what" these individuals featured on the show were actually like, what their personality was like, what their voices sounded like, what their senses of humor were like, and so on. I wish more people who knew the victims personally would post on this board. I definitely think everyone here somewhat "attaches" themselves to the victims and almost feels as if they know them. So, I think it is great when it happens and it really gives us some insight that we may have not thought of before. It is also very interesting in regards to the satanic carvings, as I had no clue on that beforehand. The whole situation is very interesting and very tragic. Do you happen to know what Kurt's dad is up to these days? Is he still in the area, still pushing for an answer in this case?

I don't know Tom McFall. I wish I did, if only to reassure him that his son was a great person. Kurt was seeking spiritual guidance. He was interested in more earth-based religions, and due to his fantasy gaming, he was also interested in the possibility of the paranormal and magic. Like I said, we had several discussions about this. Kurt knew that I am very spiritual, and have experience with the paranormal. As a teen, I studied this subject a lot-and I still do. I have never practiced anything remotely like witchcraft, or magic spells, or conjuring, nor have I ever been involved in any religion or cult, but my oldest sister was a trained and active priestess at the time, and I watched her do these things. I tried to encourage Kurt on a solitary path of study, and referred him to books for knowledge. I discouraged him from joining any groups or cults, for the reasons I outlined before. I just knew he was too naive to really understand the potential danger.

Kurt got involved in jousting, because of his fantasy games, and his liking of Renaissance Faires. That really had nothing to do with his spiritual quest, and he did not adopt any midieval religions, such as UM suggested.

Kurt did not have any injuries that are consistent with a fall down a cliff. No broken bones, no broken neck. The lacerations that were on his back were more consistent with whip marks, and weren't deep enough for him to bleed out. He was stabbed. That's what killed him. I don't know if Carillo killed him outright, but I do believe he was involved.

According to the autopsy report Kurt died from "multiple traumatic injuries and severe blood loss", and they do not make any mention of him being stabbed. If Kurt were in fact stabbed to death, why would the police rule this as anything other than a homicide? And don't you think Tom McFall would have appeared on camera and stated this outright, that his son was stabbed so it couldn't have been anything but murder?

empressharyl, thank you for all the information you've provided.

I'm just curious but was Kurt really putting himself in danger by joining Caradoc's group? You mentioned that such satanic groups or cults practice sacrifice on virgins. I tend to see such ideas as hysteria, however, I want to know your opinion on the matter.

According to the autopsy report Kurt died from "multiple traumatic injuries and severe blood loss", and they do not make any mention of him being stabbed. If Kurt were in fact stabbed to death, why would the police rule this as anything other than a homicide? And don't you think Tom McFall would have appeared on camera and stated this outright, that his son was stabbed so it couldn't have been anything but murder?

As I stated before, details were withheld from the general public. I have no idea if Tom McFall went along with that, or if he did make a statement that was later edited out of the episode. It's clear that Tom knew Kurt was murdered, and he asserted this on camera. I did not know Tom, and I was not there when they filmed this episode, so I cannot possibly be the proper person to ask about what was in his head, and why it did not appear in the episode.

empressharyl, thank you for all the information you've provided.

I'm just curious but was Kurt really putting himself in danger by joining Caradoc's group? You mentioned that such satanic groups or cults practice sacrifice on virgins. I tend to see such ideas as hysteria, however, I want to know your opinion on the matter.

I do not know how Carillo ran his group, I was not involved in it, nor was I involved in any other cult. I have a sister who was involved in a black magic cult, and she is highly trained. It's pretty clear that Kurt did put himself in danger with Carillos cult, since he ended up dead. I have studied cults, and I can tell you that from my knowledge from my sister, and from my studies, cults do indeed practice sacrifice. Usually, they sacrifice animals, or they do 'mock' sacrifices of children which involve torture and sexual molestation. However, there are some cults that sacrifice humans by killing them. What's unusual about Kurt's death is the date that he died. From what I know about cults, they will sacrifice on specific 'holy days', and that does not fit with the timing of his death.

In any sacrificial situation, a virgin, or an innocent, is considered very powerful magic. This is why animals and children are used most frequently. To find a virgin who is older, such as Kurt, only increases the power in the eyes of the cultists.

If you don't want to believe any of this, you don't have to. But there are plenty of books out there about cults. There are even books written by people who were victims of cults 'sacrifice' and sexual torture as children. Also, in the 70's, there was a film called 'Faces of Death'. In this film, there is one scene where the filmmaker shows a cult, in SF, who is engaging in necrophilia, and the actual eating of parts of a person that they have killed. The filmmaker states it is a body that was 'stolen', but it's clear from the film that it is a freshly killed person.

I do not know how Carillo ran his group, I was not involved in it, nor was I involved in any other cult. I have a sister who was involved in a black magic cult, and she is highly trained. It's pretty clear that Kurt did put himself in danger with Carillos cult, since he ended up dead. I have studied cults, and I can tell you that from my knowledge from my sister, and from my studies, cults do indeed practice sacrifice. Usually, they sacrifice animals, or they do 'mock' sacrifices of children which involve torture and sexual molestation. However, there are some cults that sacrifice humans by killing them. What's unusual about Kurt's death is the date that he died. From what I know about cults, they will sacrifice on specific 'holy days', and that does not fit with the timing of his death.

In any sacrificial situation, a virgin, or an innocent, is considered very powerful magic. This is why animals and children are used most frequently. To find a virgin who is older, such as Kurt, only increases the power in the eyes of the cultists.

If you don't want to believe any of this, you don't have to. But there are plenty of books out there about cults. There are even books written by people who were victims of cults 'sacrifice' and sexual torture as children. Also, in the 70's, there was a film called 'Faces of Death'. In this film, there is one scene where the filmmaker shows a cult, in SF, who is engaging in necrophilia, and the actual eating of parts of a person that they have killed. The filmmaker states it is a body that was 'stolen', but it's clear from the film that it is a freshly killed person.Once again, thanks for the information.

Did the police try to get ahold of Carrillo's group members? It's strange to me that Kurt was involved in such a cult, yet all that was presented in the UM segment was Carrillo's thoughts. I wonder if any of the former members in the group have something to say about Kurt's death.

Gabriel Carrillo is now dead, so they should be willing to spill the beans on any shady stuff.

Once again, thanks for the information.

Did the police try to get ahold of Carrillo's group members? It's strange to me that Kurt was involved in such a cult, yet all that was presented in the UM segment was Carrillo's thoughts. I wonder if any of the former members in the group have something to say about Kurt's death.

Gabriel Carrillo is now dead, so they should be willing to spill the beans on any shady stuff.

I really don't know any details of how the police ran the investigation. I know they contacted school officials, and I know they talked to a couple of Kurt's friends. I am assuming they probably interviewed Carillo, since he was the one Kurt was with the night he died. The police did not cooperate with UM at the time-remember that this episode was filmed only 3 years after Kurt died. I don't know anyone who was a member of Carillos group at the time, I do know someone who is a member now, but I don't know him well, and I am not in a position to ask him questions about this. I doubt he knows anything anyway, because he's a bit too young to have been any part of the group at the time Kurt was murdered.

I do know that cults make their members do blood oaths not to speak of anything that happens within their meetings or rituals. This is pretty standard for cults. They tell the members that their souls will be permanently 'doomed' somehow, should they break the oath. And considering that people would have to be fairly gullible to be involved in a cult in the first place, I could see how a fear like that would prevent anyone from talking.

Once again, thanks for the information.

Did the police try to get ahold of Carrillo's group members? It's strange to me that Kurt was involved in such a cult, yet all that was presented in the UM segment was Carrillo's thoughts. I wonder if any of the former members in the group have something to say about Kurt's death.

Gabriel Carrillo is now dead, so they should be willing to spill the beans on any shady stuff.

If you accept the poster's information, one is almost forced to conclude the police deliberately did not investigate this crime for motivations unknown, as one is not stabbed multiple times "accidentally"

I am skeptical, but certainly admit I lack the familiarity with the actual case file to dispute the claims at issue.

Just wondering, but which high school did Kurt McFall attend? I've lived in SF almost all my life and I'm curious to know.

Also, in the 70's, there was a film called 'Faces of Death'. In this film, there is one scene where the filmmaker shows a cult, in SF, who is engaging in necrophilia, and the actual eating of parts of a person that they have killed. The filmmaker states it is a body that was 'stolen', but it's clear from the film that it is a freshly killed person.

"Faces of Death" was a fake movie. While I do believe there were and still are active cults to this day, I do not believe Kurt was any type of human sacrifice. "Caradoc" made a good point in his UM interview, "If I wanted to murder somebody, the last person I would murder would be somebody who was staying at my house and whose father knew that he was staying in my house."

As to the beer bottles scattered around Kurt's car, this is what is very puzzling about the case. Could it have been some type of accidental death, but whoever was involved wanted to cover it up so they set the car up and staged the scene? Who else would want to steal his suit of armor other than other people interested in the medieval period? Or another possibility is someone (possibly a group of drunk teenagers) stumbled upon the car and decided to rifle through the the trunk and found the armor and decided to steal it. This would explain the beer bottles being found in and around the car. And Kurt's body was found directly below where his car was parked, so it seems likely that he drove it there. Had his body been found anywhere else, then obviously somebody else was involved and had driven his car to the golf course. Maybe this golf course was a popular place for teens to hang out because of the scenic view of the ocean?

Although the segment mentioned beer bottles scattered around the car, it didn't specify how. The car could have pulled into an area with a lot of trash; it's common to find beer bottles in public areas like beaches. I don't think there's anything suspicious about them in this case.

Although the segment mentioned beer bottles scattered around the car, it didn't specify how. The car could have pulled into an area with a lot of trash; it's common to find beer bottles in public areas like beaches. I don't think there's anything suspicious about them in this case.

They were found in his car as well as around it.

Was alcohol found in his system?

Was alcohol found in his system?

No according to his father the autopsy did not find alcohol in Kurt's system. That is essentially what makes this case so mysterious. If Kurt was drunk it would explain where his car was found, the beer bottles in and around the car and would also explain him making the decision to go rock climbing in the middle of the night as well as facilitating him falling off the cliffs.

But Kurt didn't have alcohol in his system so you can rule any theory regarding impaired judgment due to intoxication out.

No alcohol was found in his system, according to his father. Do we have a more reliable source? Is this supposition in the police report?

No alcohol was found in his system, according to his father. Do we have a more reliable source? Is this supposition in the police report?

Well his father cited the autopsy in informing the audience that there wasn't any alcohol in Kurt's system so unless Kurt's father is lying then there wasn't any alcohol in his system.

It's difficult to find any reliable sources for this case outside of the word of Kurt's family and friends because the San Francisco PD refused to participate in the segment and to my knowledge have never commented publicly on their findings in this case.

For that reason alone, I would love to see the coroner's report for this case so we can determine the exact nature of the abrasions found on Kurt's body as well as the possibility of any other injuries that could have been caused from a fall from the cliffs.

Kurt went to Clayton Valley High School in Concord, CA. It's in a middle-class area, a good neighborhood.

Well his father cited the autopsy in informing the audience that there wasn't any alcohol in Kurt's system so unless Kurt's father is lying then there wasn't any alcohol in his system.

It's difficult to find any reliable sources for this case outside of the word of Kurt's family and friends because the San Francisco PD refused to participate in the segment and to my knowledge have never commented publicly on their findings in this case.

For that reason alone, I would love to see the coroner's report for this case so we can determine the exact nature of the abrasions found on Kurt's body as well as the possibility of any other injuries that could have been caused from a fall from the cliffs.
I believe what Tom said about no alcohol or drugs being in Kurt's system. As I said, I saw him in several situations outside of school where he could have easily used, and he never did.

If you accept the poster's information, one is almost forced to conclude the police deliberately did not investigate this crime for motivations unknown, as one is not stabbed multiple times "accidentally"

I am skeptical, but certainly admit I lack the familiarity with the actual case file to dispute the claims at issue.
I don't know if SFPD deliberately didn't investigate as they should, or if they simply didn't have the manpower and funds to do a proper investigation. As I said, at the time, there was only about a 36% arrest rate for murder, at best. SFPD, like Oakland PD, has problems with solving crimes, due to the sheer number of people vs. police, and a constant budget crisis. They may have done the best they could, with what they had. I work with troubled youth/gangsters, and it's an 'open secret' that if you want to get away with murder, you do it in Oakland and San Francisco. This has also been confirmed by police that I know and have worked with in both cities.

"Faces of Death" was a fake movie. While I do believe there were and still are active cults to this day, I do not believe Kurt was any type of human sacrifice. "Caradoc" made a good point in his UM interview, "If I wanted to murder somebody, the last person I would murder would be somebody who was staying at my house and whose father knew that he was staying in my house."

As to the beer bottles scattered around Kurt's car, this is what is very puzzling about the case. Could it have been some type of accidental death, but whoever was involved wanted to cover it up so they set the car up and staged the scene? Who else would want to steal his suit of armor other than other people interested in the medieval period? Or another possibility is someone (possibly a group of drunk teenagers) stumbled upon the car and decided to rifle through the the trunk and found the armor and decided to steal it. This would explain the beer bottles being found in and around the car. And Kurt's body was found directly below where his car was parked, so it seems likely that he drove it there. Had his body been found anywhere else, then obviously somebody else was involved and had driven his car to the golf course. Maybe this golf course was a popular place for teens to hang out because of the scenic view of the ocean?
As far as I know, Land's End is not a popular place for teens to hang out and party at. They usually prefer the Haight district for this.

"Faces of Death" was a fake movie. While I do believe there were and still are active cults to this day, I do not believe Kurt was any type of human sacrifice. "Caradoc" made a good point in his UM interview, "If I wanted to murder somebody, the last person I would murder would be somebody who was staying at my house and whose father knew that he was staying in my house."

As to the beer bottles scattered around Kurt's car, this is what is very puzzling about the case. Could it have been some type of accidental death, but whoever was involved wanted to cover it up so they set the car up and staged the scene? Who else would want to steal his suit of armor other than other people interested in the medieval period? Or another possibility is someone (possibly a group of drunk teenagers) stumbled upon the car and decided to rifle through the the trunk and found the armor and decided to steal it. This would explain the beer bottles being found in and around the car. And Kurt's body was found directly below where his car was parked, so it seems likely that he drove it there. Had his body been found anywhere else, then obviously somebody else was involved and had driven his car to the golf course. Maybe this golf course was a popular place for teens to hang out because of the scenic view of the ocean?
Remember, there were more than one 'Faces of Death' movie. The first one was real. The others were staged.

"Faces of Death" was a fake movie. While I do believe there were and still are active cults to this day, I do not believe Kurt was any type of human sacrifice. "Caradoc" made a good point in his UM interview, "If I wanted to murder somebody, the last person I would murder would be somebody who was staying at my house and whose father knew that he was staying in my house."

As to the beer bottles scattered around Kurt's car, this is what is very puzzling about the case. Could it have been some type of accidental death, but whoever was involved wanted to cover it up so they set the car up and staged the scene? Who else would want to steal his suit of armor other than other people interested in the medieval period? Or another possibility is someone (possibly a group of drunk teenagers) stumbled upon the car and decided to rifle through the the trunk and found the armor and decided to steal it. This would explain the beer bottles being found in and around the car. And Kurt's body was found directly below where his car was parked, so it seems likely that he drove it there. Had his body been found anywhere else, then obviously somebody else was involved and had driven his car to the golf course. Maybe this golf course was a popular place for teens to hang out because of the scenic view of the ocean?
Also, people often do stupid stuff like kill someone when it will be obvious that they would be the prime suspect. I don't believe Carillo is telling the truth about what happened the night Kurt died, nor do I give him much credit for intelligence.

None of the Faces of Death movies are real. First, if a film crew knowingly filmed a sacrifice, they'd be just as liable as those who committed the murder. You can't film a murder and distribute it as part of a film without facing the same consequences as the murderer. Second, no group would allow a sacrifice to be filmed. Generally speaking, those who would do such a thing wouldn't be concerned with filming it, getting the lighting right etc... That's evidence that can be used against them and any group practicing this sort of thing would want as little evidence as possible floating around. You're free to believe it is real, but there is actually proof out there that it isn't. Many of the books on the subject have also been debunked. I have quite an extensive collection of those books and the books debunking them. It makes for some pretty interesting reading when you are privy to the real actions of the supposed victims around the time they were supposed to have been being tortured by some Satanic cult.

Moving along. I happen to be a Pagan, so I think I can speak with authority on what we do and what we don't do. First and foremost, we do not practice any form of sacrifice. Now, the sex issue is where the waters get muddy. Some groups do incorporate sexual activity. Many of them are following the tradition of Gerald Gardner, Ray Buckland and their ilk. It is not expressly forbidden, but it is not required either. I won't say that sex is not a part of ritual for some groups, because it is. I will say that I have never seen it done. Normally, it is practiced by one or two types of Pagans. You have your doing everything I can to piss of the uptight people types and those who follow Gardner et al. The rest of us don't bother with that stuff because, well, there's no need to. Some will say it enhances the ritual or whatever. Personally, I find that an excuse to get some and nothing more.

In all honesty, if most non-Pagans attended one ritual of ours, they would get something completely different from what they expect. In fact, they would probably be bored and disappointed because no naked people are running around engaging in wanton sex. You'd see pretty much what you see in any religious celebration.

Now, the morality comment from a few pages back rubbed me the wrong way. So do all of the references of this "cult." It is true that our faith is different and it teaches us to interact with those around us differently, however, our morals are generally the same. We do not take kindly to anybody engaging in sexual relations with under-aged people for starters. The people who find that sort of thing "liberating" or whatever face the scorn of the rest of us and usually end up with a police office on their doorstep. Also, a different religion does not a cult equal. It's kind of like if I were calling protestants a cult. That would offend protestants. We get lumped into groups all of the time which do not fit us.

I will wind up this novel very shortly, I promise. I have one more point to address. What people often consider proof of "Satanic" activity is usually kids screwing around. The Church of Satan in SF has a building in which to practice. They don't need to go out in the woods for such things. They do not condone sacrifice or anything of the sort. Are there mixed up kids out there skinning animals and claiming they are Satanists? Absolutely. Are they really Satanists? Not by a long shot.

The armor missing bit, is quite easy to explain if you know a thing or two about the SCA. Armor is more expensive then you would imagine. It is extremely pricey. Somebody probably stole it from the car to either sell at an event or to use. I'm not kidding, the stuff costs a fortune. The more authentic it is, the more it will set you back. People make a great deal of money on Ebay selling SCA armor. Makes we wish I would have learned how when my ex dragged me to so many of their events.

None of the Faces of Death movies are real. First, if a film crew knowingly filmed a sacrifice, they'd be just as liable as those who committed the murder. You can't film a murder and distribute it as part of a film without facing the same consequences as the murderer. Second, no group would allow a sacrifice to be filmed. Generally speaking, those who would do such a thing wouldn't be concerned with filming it, getting the lighting right etc... That's evidence that can be used against them and any group practicing this sort of thing would want as little evidence as possible floating around. You're free to believe it is real, but there is actually proof out there that it isn't. Many of the books on the subject have also been debunked. I have quite an extensive collection of those books and the books debunking them. It makes for some pretty interesting reading when you are privy to the real actions of the supposed victims around the time they were supposed to have been being tortured by some Satanic cult.

Moving along. I happen to be a Pagan, so I think I can speak with authority on what we do and what we don't do. First and foremost, we do not practice any form of sacrifice. Now, the sex issue is where the waters get muddy. Some groups do incorporate sexual activity. Many of them are following the tradition of Gerald Gardner, Ray Buckland and their ilk. It is not expressly forbidden, but it is not required either. I won't say that sex is not a part of ritual for some groups, because it is. I will say that I have never seen it done. Normally, it is practiced by one or two types of Pagans. You have your doing everything I can to piss of the uptight people types and those who follow Gardner et al. The rest of us don't bother with that stuff because, well, there's no need to. Some will say it enhances the ritual or whatever. Personally, I find that an excuse to get some and nothing more.

In all honesty, if most non-Pagans attended one ritual of ours, they would get something completely different from what they expect. In fact, they would probably be bored and disappointed because no naked people are running around engaging in wanton sex. You'd see pretty much what you see in any religious celebration.

Now, the morality comment from a few pages back rubbed me the wrong way. So do all of the references of this "cult." It is true that our faith is different and it teaches us to interact with those around us differently, however, our morals are generally the same. We do not take kindly to anybody engaging in sexual relations with under-aged people for starters. The people who find that sort of thing "liberating" or whatever face the scorn of the rest of us and usually end up with a police office on their doorstep. Also, a different religion does not a cult equal. It's kind of like if I were calling protestants a cult. That would offend protestants. We get lumped into groups all of the time which do not fit us.

I will wind up this novel very shortly, I promise. I have one more point to address. What people often consider proof of "Satanic" activity is usually kids screwing around. The Church of Satan in SF has a building in which to practice. They don't need to go out in the woods for such things. They do not condone sacrifice or anything of the sort. Are there mixed up kids out there skinning animals and claiming they are Satanists? Absolutely. Are they really Satanists? Not by a long shot.

The armor missing bit, is quite easy to explain if you know a thing or two about the SCA. Armor is more expensive then you would imagine. It is extremely pricey. Somebody probably stole it from the car to either sell at an event or to use. I'm not kidding, the stuff costs a fortune. The more authentic it is, the more it will set you back. People make a great deal of money on Ebay selling SCA armor. Makes we wish I would have learned how when my ex dragged me to so many of their events.
To be honest, you are being defensive of your beliefs for no reason. At no point was Kurt involved in Paganism. He was beginning to study Paganism, as well as Druidism, witchcraft, and other forms of earth-based religions. What he was actually involved in was a cult. Not a religion. So, defending your religion is kind of ridiculous, as it has absolutely nothing to do with how Kurt was murdered, nor is anyone pointing to your religion as the cause of his murder. The fact that your religion, or even the Church of Satan does not practice sacrifice has nothing to do with what Kurt was involved in. He was not following any of these religions! So, why waste time defending something that has nothing to do with Kurt, or why he was murdered? It seems pretty strange that you're using this forum to stand on a soap box and preach about irrelevant topics.

Regardless of the fact that some people want to lump all religions together as cults, does not change the fact that Kurt was murdered in a sacrificial way, and was involved in a cult that killed him. No one here has pointed at you, or your religion, and said you are responsible.

No offense, but is it a "fact" that McFall was murdered in a "sacrificial" manner?

I don't know if SFPD deliberately didn't investigate as they should, or if they simply didn't have the manpower and funds to do a proper investigation. As I said, at the time, there was only about a 36% arrest rate for murder, at best. SFPD, like Oakland PD, has problems with solving crimes, due to the sheer number of people vs. police, and a constant budget crisis. They may have done the best they could, with what they had. I work with troubled youth/gangsters, and it's an 'open secret' that if you want to get away with murder, you do it in Oakland and San Francisco. This has also been confirmed by police that I know and have worked with in both cities.

Regardless of SFPD's ability, if they knew there were multiple stab wounds on the body, as you claim, yet ruled the death "accidental", a cover-up is the only logical conclusion.

Regardless of SFPD's ability, if they knew there were multiple stab wounds on the body, as you claim, yet ruled the death "accidental", a cover-up is the only logical conclusion.

Yes and if this was a "sacrificial" murder, what motive would the SFPD have in covering it up? I can understand them not commenting on the case on UM since it was an active investigation, but to cover it up?

And as far as Carodac looking "suspicious" in that clip, lots of people act guilty and aren't.

Yes and if this was a "sacrificial" murder, what motive would the SFPD have in covering it up? I can understand them not commenting on the case on UM since it was an active investigation, but to cover it up?

Therein lies the problem for this and the multitude of other conspiracy theories put forth on UM and this Board, since if SFPD covered up evidence of a sacrificial murder, the logical conclusion is that the SFPD is in league with a satanist cult.

Is this possible? Anything's possible. Is it at all likely? Not in my opinion.

Therein lies the problem for this and the multitude of other conspiracy theories put forth on UM and this Board, since if SFPD covered up evidence of a sacrificial murder, the logical conclusion is that the SFPD is in league with a satanist cult.

Is this possible? Anything's possible. Is it at all likely? Not in my opinion.

That's generally the premise the more "vocal" conspiracy theorists fall back on. When the whole Satanic Panic thing began, people began questioning inconsistencies quite a bit. The answer they got was that everyone was in on it. Entire police departments, judges, high ranking government officials. Even an FBI agent who published a report that stated there was no evidence of such activity was said to have been in on it. While it is possible that certain police officers conspire to get away with certain illegal activities, I find it highly improbable that an entire police department much less government agencies would conspire in such a way.

Though I have enjoyed UM for many years, I've always been disappointed when they played up conspiracy theories. I know, they make for good TV, but they don't make for accurate TV. When one hopes to solve a murder or a missing persons case via a television program, accurate should trump sensational every time.

That's generally the premise the more "vocal" conspiracy theorists fall back on. When the whole Satanic Panic thing began, people began questioning inconsistencies quite a bit. The answer they got was that everyone was in on it. Entire police departments, judges, high ranking government officials. Even an FBI agent who published a report that stated there was no evidence of such activity was said to have been in on it. While it is possible that certain police officers conspire to get away with certain illegal activities, I find it highly improbable that an entire police department much less government agencies would conspire in such a way.

Though I have enjoyed UM for many years, I've always been disappointed when they played up conspiracy theories. I know, they make for good TV, but they don't make for accurate TV. When one hopes to solve a murder or a missing persons case via a television program, accurate should trump sensational every time.

I couldn't agree more.

Since a "conspiracy" is legally defined as any two or more people working together in a criminal objective, many UM cases prob. are technical conspiracies, but can anyone name ANY proven wide-scale conspiracy involving government, law enforcement, cults, white slavery rings, etc., etc. that kills people and commits crimes?

Given the number of people these conspiracies MUST involve, that no credible evidence has EVER been discovered is, to me, and IMO any rational person with a modicum of critical thinking, a fatal defect.

I do separate out, however, what might be called "CYA conspiracies" - i.e., cases where law enforcement bungled an investigation and then tried to cover-up their ineptitude. Certainly a few notable UM's fall into this category.

I couldn't agree more.

Since a "conspiracy" is legally defined as any two or more people working together in a criminal objective, many UM cases prob. are technical conspiracies, but can anyone name ANY proven wide-scale conspiracy involving government, law enforcement, cults, white slavery rings, etc., etc. that kills people and commits crimes?

Given the number of people these conspiracies MUST involve, that no credible evidence has EVER been discovered is, to me, and IMO any rational person with a modicum of critical thinking, a fatal defect.

I do separate out, however, what might be called "CYA conspiracies" - i.e., cases where law enforcement bungled an investigation and then tried to cover-up their ineptitude. Certainly a few notable UM's fall into this category.

I also think that a majority of this board cries "conspiracy" when a police department commits a blunder, or makes a mistake. They're human, too. Was there ever another "mysterious" disappearance or murder with someone involved in Caradoc's cult? I don't think so, or else he would have been investigated further.

I just saw this case for the first time on crystaldawn's DVD Vol. 2. Here's my question: why is it always with the Satanism on this show? For the sake of reference, I've done internet searches for "Satanism" and "Church of Satan," etc. In an era when you can find any weird thing people want to do on the internet, there is precious little on any organized Satanic cult activity out there. I understand, of course, that if people are doing something truly illegal (sacrificing animals and the like) they might not want to make a public advertisement of same, but at the same time the "freedom of speech" we enjoy is exercised, often in extraordinarily graphic detail, on the internet all the time. And yet there really isn't much out there about "Black Masses" and the like. The one "church" operating under the name of "Church of Satan" is not really worshipping the Devil as a Christian would commonly understand that term, but more of a "natural spirit."

It just seems to me that whenever a teenager is murdered in this show, Satanism is one of three more or less "automatic" explanations that people seem to reach for. And yet, it seems to me that ACTUAL devil worship is exceedingly rare.

In this case, of course, McFall's father is linking the kid's interest in Dungeons & Dragons to the occult and ultimately to Satanism. This, to me, is a little like people who believe the Ouija board is a gateway to evil --- I don't think the mystical powers of the underworld can be conjured by a $10 board made by Milton Bradley anymore than I believe that pretending to be a dragon and rolling a 12-sided die, however weird-looking that object may be, can turn you into someone capable of channelling Beezlebub.

What I mostly curious about in this case is the kid's father's apparent disinterest in a more obvious motive for his murder (if he was murdered) or suicide --- a lover's quarrell. What 17 year old kid stays over at the house of a 35 year old man who is just a "friend"? Perhaps McFall was depressed that his firend simply left him out in the living room and went to bed --- i.e., he was hoping to have a romantic encounter --- and when it didn't materialize, he drove off in a huff, pounded a few beers, and decided to end it all (I also like McFall's father's contention that his son "didn't drink" --- sure buddy, you go right ahead and believe that if it makes you happy; he hangs out with all sorts of people over 21, he, according to you, was becoming interested in worshipping the Devil, but alcohol at 17? --- that's immoral). Alternatively, maybe he and his friend did go out there and get into some kind of altercation, and he ended up over the cliff.

I'm just stunned at how often "Satanism" or some variation on that theme comes up in these segments. From everything I can gather, it's not a common thing to do at all!


you really think people are going to post their satanic activities online for people like you to research? lmao

you really think people are going to post their satanic activities online for people like you to research? lmao
Sure. You think people are going to create message boards so that people can discuss the minutiae of moribund cases?

everything on the net can be traced, remember that

...I don't see any reason to suspect him of murder other than his wearing tacky glasses...

I shouldn't be laughing here, but those 10 years out of date glasses he was sporting were kinda funny. :D

Some thoughts on Kurt McFall I sent to another poster some time ago. Figured I would post them since the thread was bumped and to see what you guys think...

I watched the segment again over the weekend. I still believe that the known evidence points toward an accidental death. One of the issues I have grappled with in the past is trying to wrap my mind around just how Kurt died, but after reassessing all the facts I think I have a good idea.

Before I begin constructing a theory, I like to establish a timeline of key events in the case. One interesting thing I noticed that I hadn’t caught on previous viewings was an error in the segment itself. Stack reported Saturday’s date as both September 8 and September 10. September 8, 1984 did fall on a Saturday; likewise the 10th fell on a Monday. I have made the appropriate corrections to the timeline below.

Saturday, September 8, 1984 – Kurt drives from his home in Concord to San Francisco to spend the evening with his friend and mentor Gabriel “Caradoc” Carrillo.

Early Sunday morning around 12am – Kurt went swimming at Ocean Beach.

Early Sunday morning around 3am – according to Carrillo, Kurt knocked on his bedroom door and said he couldn’t sleep so he was going to the beach. I should add the disclaimer here that this event is based on Carrillo’s account. Since Carrillo is a suspect in Kurt’s death, I don’t want to take this as gospel, but I am including the time as a reference and for clarity.

“The following evening” (Stack’s words) I assume late Sunday, September 9, 1984 – Kurt’s car is located abandoned on a golf course overlooking the ocean.

Monday, September 10, 1984 – Kurt’s body is discovered by bird watchers. At approximately 10:15am, his body is recovered by the Coast Guard.

Obviously, any theory has to fit this timeline. I think it is reasonable to assume that whatever event or events caused Kurt’s death occurred on early Sunday morning, and no later than Sunday evening when his car was picked up. The Coast Guard officers indicated that Kurt’s body was in good condition and appeared as if it had been in the water for “some time”. Kurt’s back was covered with cuts and abrasions. Kurt’s shirt, shoes, socks and belt buckle were missing.

The location in which Kurt’s body was found was described as a cove. Here is a wiki article on coves with a photograph and a description of just what kind of topography constitutes a cove.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cove
Also, I do not know how accurate the re-enactment portions of the UM segment are, but I think it is reasonable to assume that the scenes depicting the recovery of Kurt’s body were likely filmed in the exact location his body was found, or a similar one. I generally don’t like basing a theory on anything shown in a re-enactment as there is no way to say with any degree of certainty just how accurate the re-enactment is to the facts of the case. I am reminded, however, of Karl Malden’s remark in one of the specials that the events have been recreated “in precise detail”. I can’t explain why, but a part of me believes that those early specials – likely created in an attempt to pitch the series to NBC - just may have had the best and most accurate and detailed re-enactments in the history of the series. Just a personal observation.

Moving along, I think we have to defer to Carrillo’s statements, as they are the only clues we have as to Kurt’s activities that weekend. I hate doing this, but we have no other evidence to rely on. A couple comments on Kurt’s seemingly unusual 3am decision to go to the beach: having been born and raised in South Florida, less than a 30 minute drive from the coast, I can’t stress enough just how instrumental the beach is to the lives of the teenagers growing up and living in this area. Most weekend activities are centered around, or involve the beach in some form. It is not unusual to go to the beach in the morning and spend a few hours there before leaving to go shopping or out to eat, only to return to the same or a different beach later that evening. It also isn’t uncommon to keep extra swim trunks or a change of clothes on hand. In the segment, Stack mentions that Kurt went to the beach around midnight on Sunday. Therefore, I don’t find it inconceivable that Kurt spontaneously decided to return to the beach that evening after he realized he couldn’t sleep.

A second point about the beach: in South Florida, most (all?) of the public beaches close at sunset. The beaches are then patrolled by the local police department who WILL hassle you if they find you on the beach past closing time. I don’t know if this is normal in San Francisco, but I don’t think it’s out of question. Also, I will say that if you are a teenager, out past curfew, and looking to chill at the beach, you quickly learn the “sweet spots” that are not heavily or routinely patrolled. This may explain why Kurt’s car was found abandoned in such an unusual location. Also, if Kurt planned to go swimming, which I believe he did, then he may have been forced to choose a spot that while having access to the ocean – wasn’t exactly direct access – he may have had to climb down the cliff to get to the water. If the location matches what was depicted on UM, then he most certainly would have had to scale down the side of a cliff. Given that he was an experienced climber (according to his father) this probably wouldn’t have been an obstacle to Kurt and maybe he took it as a small challenge.

Taking all that into account, I envision Kurt driving to the beach intending to go for a quick swim. He parks his car on the golf course, either to avoid cops, or because it is a nice “scenic overlook” with a bit of a climb down to the beach. As he plans on going swimming, Kurt can’t take his car keys with him into the water, so he has no choice but to leave the car unlocked and the keys inside. I think Kurt took off his shirt and perhaps loosened his belt in anticipation of removing his pants to go swimming. It isn’t indicated if Kurt was wearing swim trunks under his jeans, but I wouldn’t rule it out. I also suppose it is possible he may have decided to go swimming nude – the location was an enclosed cove and it was 3am.

In any event, I think Kurt slipped on the rocks and slid down the cliff on his back. The cliff is mostly jagged rock formation. These rocks can be extremely sharp. About 15 years ago, I slipped and fell on similar rocks in the ocean and sliced up my side and stomach very badly. I’ll never forget the experience. It is no joke. These rocks likely caused the many (likely vertical) cuts and abrasions on Kurt’s back and caused him to bleed profusely. I think that Kurt could have lost his shirt during the tumble. His initial instinct would have been to grab a hold of something, anything, to stop himself from falling. If he was holding his shirt, he would have loosened his grip on it. I think the tumble could have also separated the belt buckle and shoes from Kurt’s body – he may not have been wearing socks to begin with, we don’t know. Unfortunately, I think the shock and impact of the fall rendered Kurt unconscious and he bled out, right there, at the bottom of the cliff below the spot his car was parked. His body wasn’t recovered for over 24 hours so the tide could have taken care of the blood, his belt buckle, the shirt and his shoes.

The most troubling aspect of the entire case is the discovery of Kurt’s car. However, we know it was probably unlocked and unattended for a little under 24 hours. There is no telling who could have come along and taking advantage of the situation. It may have been a vagrant. As some have speculated, it could have been drunken teenagers. Being careless drunks committing a minor crime, they could have left the beer bottles behind. They may have stolen Kurt’s suit of armor thinking it was something valuable or because they thought it was “cool” and took it just because. In any case, I think the scene was compromised, so any evidence collected from the car is contaminated and likely worthless.

In summation, I don’t see any evidence that would preclude Kurt’s death from being an accident.

While I think the cult aspects are compelling, I just see them as window dressing here. There are many things about the cult angle that don’t make sense.

- If Kurt was murdered, how did the killers create the injuries, cause the death and “stage” things in such a manner that they would be consistent with a fall from a cliff and seasoned investigators would be fooled in to ruling it an accident?

- If the car was staged to make it appear that Kurt had been drinking and being reckless that night, why leave behind the beer cans? The cans could contain incriminating evidence such as fingerprints or saliva. Also, no alcohol was found in Kurt's body when it was autopsied. Alcohol is easily detectable and the lack of it in his bloodstream, yet the discovery of the beer cans would look pretty darn suspicious.

- If Kurt was in fear for his life, as his anonymous friend suggested, why would he willingly go spend the weekend with Carrillo?

- If Carillo planned to kill Kurt as some sort of “sacrifice” why invite Kurt to stay at his apartment knowing full well that he would be the prime suspect?

Something else - I don’t know about you guys, but I just don’t see Carrillo as a murderer. I know that may seem laughable, but I’ve watched the segment probably a hundred times since the early nineties, and I’ve never gotten the “vibe” about Carrillo that I have about other suspects who proclaimed their innocence on UM. I think his explanations are sound and rational. He spoke about his religion and group and even permitted UM to film one of their meetings, why do all this if you have a something to hide? He doesn’t strike me as the arrogant sociopathic “I’m smarter than the cops” type either. I realize these are subjective observations on my part, but I figured it couldn’t hurt to throw them out there since we’re having this discussion.

I also think it is important to remember that at the time Kurt died and the UM segment produced and aired, the United States was still in the throes of “Satanic Panic”. There have been numerous studies conducted in the years since that have shown there is no basis in many of these beliefs and that the Satanic Panic era as a whole was a widespread case of mass hysteria. Unfortunately, I think that since Kurt was dabbling in witchcraft and other religions that we as outsiders still don’t have a firm grasp on, his death will always be synonymous with Satanism and the occult. However, there is not one shred of convincing or irrefutable proof that these allegations are true.

That sounds convincing. I grew up and still live in Miami, by the way, so I know what you mean about the irresistible pull of the beach.

great post Justin!

one thing that might support the accident theory: although Kurt wasn't tired enough to sleep, he still may have been groggy, after all it was past 3 a.m. So while he may have been able to descend the rocks under normal circumstances, maybe he was tired enough that it caused his balance to be thrown off and he fell.

and his dad said he was an experienced swimmer and climber, so that makes it more likely that he was at the beach on his own accord, as opposed to him say, being killed elsewhere and dumped at the beach.

I agree with justins5256 on this one, every single sign points to an accidental death in this case. Seems fairly logical to me that if Kurt went out swimming at midnight, it wouldn't seem that odd for him to go back out for a swim at 3 in the morning. Especially if he had problems sleeping. Also the cuts on Kurt's back were consistent with a fall.

Has anyone ever run across info about Kurts mom? I don't recall anything being said about her in the segment. Was she out of Kurt's life? Passed on? Too broken up by her son's death to appear on camera?

What was the condition of Kurt's hands? If he fell off the cliff and sustained the abrasions to his back as a result, wouldn't his hands show major signs of clawing at the rocks and dirt? Even in a suicide, it might be a natural response to reach out while sliding down the cliff.

One interesting thing I noticed about this case was either Robert Stack was pronouncing Gabriel Carrillo's name wrong or they misspelled his name. It clearly showed his name as Gabriel Carrillo in the segment, but Stack called him Carrhotic or something similar.

As far as the case goes, I really don't think there is anything unsolved or mysterious about it. It seems that he either fell or jumped off of their in a drunken stupor. There is no evidence at all that suggests he was involved in foul play.
The show stated that he had no alcohol in his system, so no, he wasnt drunk.

I agree with justins5256 on this one, every single sign points to an accidental death in this case. Seems fairly logical to me that if Kurt went out swimming at midnight, it wouldn't seem that odd for him to go back out for a swim at 3 in the morning. Especially if he had problems sleeping. Also the cuts on Kurt's back were consistent with a fall.
Having grown up in San Franciso, I doubt seriously that Kurt went swimming in the freakin' FREEZING water of the SF Bay. It is literally too cold in the SUMMER to swim. No one swims in the SF Bay without a wetsuit. Hardly anyone enters the SF Bay except surfers. Teenagers do not hang out at the beach there, unless they travel south to Santa Cruz.

I agree with justins5256 on this one, every single sign points to an accidental death in this case. Seems fairly logical to me that if Kurt went out swimming at midnight, it wouldn't seem that odd for him to go back out for a swim at 3 in the morning. Especially if he had problems sleeping. Also the cuts on Kurt's back were consistent with a fall.
The police say the car was staged, so how does this fit in with your theory of an accidental death?

The police say the car was staged, so how does this fit in with your theory of an accidental death?
I don't believe in Satanic twaddle, but according to UM's version of the police report what looks "staged" actually looks like the sort of randomness from which police try to draw coherence.

The police say the car was staged, so how does this fit in with your theory of an accidental death?

Kurt was missing for an entire weekend. Who's to say that someone didn't come up on Kurt's abadoned car, rifle through it, perhaps discarding some of the beer cans found around his car, and also decided to swipe his suit of armor? And it was Kurt's father, not police, who said the scene was staged.

Kurt was missing for an entire weekend. Who's to say that someone didn't come up on Kurt's abadoned car, rifle through it, perhaps discarding some of the beer cans found around his car, and also decided to swipe his suit of armor? And it was Kurt's father, not police, who said the scene was staged.

This scenario has crossed my mind as well given as you mentioned the length of time Kurt's car was missing. The problem I keep coming back to with this theory though is the twenty dollar bill. You would think someone who would've rifled through someone else's car, the first thing they would have tried to confiscate would have been money.

This scenario has crossed my mind as well given as you mentioned the length of time Kurt's car was missing. The problem I keep coming back to with this theory though is the twenty dollar bill. You would think someone who would've rifled through someone else's car, the first thing they would have tried to confiscate would have been money.

I suppose it's possible that the money was simply overlooked. I wish UM would have went into greater detail about the condition in which his car was found and all of the items (if there were any more) that were missing from the vehicle.

Now that Gabriel Carrille, aka Gabriel Charottic is dead, that pretty much seals it for this case. I'm afraid he was the only one who knew what really happened (as in he was responsible), and now he is gone.

Very interesting, reading through this thread. I was a good friend of Kurt. Cutting to the chase, my assumption was always that he probably took his own life or had an accident on the cliffs. I have no evidence of this, but it always felt right and fit with what I knew of Kurt.

Kurt was a very serious guy. He was a bit of a loner, or maybe I should say an independent type. Independent enough to stand out in high school because he did not try to fit in.

I would describe him as adventurous and a risk taker. (I would not be especially surprised to learn that he DID try to go rock climbing at lands end. He was that kind of guy.)

Kurt was going through MAJOR life changes during the summer between Junior and Senior year. He had always been fairly "straight laced," but he became very much the opposite. I had been fooling with pot and alcohol for years, but I never knew Kurt to do that. Then, over that summer, he had some pot and shared it with me and we ate a bunch of cool whip at his condo. Weird to remember that now...

Anyway, he changed a lot and didn't seem completely happy about it. I remember that he wanted to be in the CIA. I don't know if he really meant that, but it didn't seem out of the question. He was that kind of guy. Then, that summer, it seemed like he had given up on being serious and was drifting. He specifically said something about not being able to be in the CIA now that he had used drugs (we were kids, we thought we knew how things worked). I guess now, as an adult, I would describe him as lost. He had become unmoored and was drifting.

Kurt was never a "happy" person to begin with. His family life seemed a bit cold. I can't remember if he lived with his mom or his dad in a condo in Concord, near what is now the Sleep Train Pavillion. I was there a handful of times and didn't see much of whichever parent it was. Most of the rest of my friends, I knew their parents. Just a random thing, but it makes me think now that he might have been a bit alone.

He stood out at school. He seemed impervious to the BS of high school, though. He seemed beyond it, like he knew better things were ahead. Then, I always wondered if maybe he had lost that belief a bit, and that was what had happened.

I don't remember the police telling us anything interesting at school, like has been previously posted here. I was interviewed by SFPD in San Francisco, I went to Kurt's funeral, I discussed it endlessly with all the rest of his friends. There was never anything weird or Satanic as far as I remember, and I would. I don't know anything about the person posting those things, and maybe I am the one who is wrong, but I would suggest taking them with a grain of salt.

I would not be surprised if Kurt was expressing interest to some older student about spiritual things, but I don't think that was a large part of his life. I never heard about it, anyway.

I don't know for certain who the secret friend in the segment was (haven't seen it for years) but I *think* I know, and I would not take that testimony too seriously. I have no first hand info, but it seemed to me like that person was just enjoying the spotlight, and if it's the person I think, that would be in character.

I was not surprised that Kurt was involved with the SCA people. He showed me some stuff, and it seemed cool. It was a very "in character" think for Kurt to get involved with.

I don't guess we will ever know, but I think and always thought that there was not much mystery to Kurt's death. I never decided whether I thought it was an accident or a suicide. How would we ever know, unless he told someone (which would not have been like Kurt, I don't think). I and my friends always assumed that the police investigated so closely for two reasons: First, becuase Kurt had spent the night with an adult. In retrospect, that seems even weirder now than it did then. Second, Kurt had always been so straight-laced, so it seemed unlikely that he would end up like he did.

To me, though, that last is the key. Kurt was a bit different, never fit into the school scene (at least not like we all wanted to), but he dealt with it by seeing himself as better than all that. When I last saw him, he seemed to see himself as "fallen." No longer exceptional.

I was too young to know what a neat guy he was. He was, though. Personally, I think it was just a bad combination of events (which ones I don't know, but probably nothing so interesting as Satanic Murder) and a slip between the cracks, and we lost him.

If his family or other friends read this, please know I cared about Kurt, too, and he was definitely a special person.

Very interesting, reading through this thread. I was a good friend of Kurt. Cutting to the chase, my assumption was always that he probably took his own life or had an accident on the cliffs. I have no evidence of this, but it always felt right and fit with what I knew of Kurt.

Kurt was a very serious guy. He was a bit of a loner, or maybe I should say an independent type. Independent enough to stand out in high school because he did not try to fit in.

I would describe him as adventurous and a risk taker. (I would not be especially surprised to learn that he DID try to go rock climbing at lands end. He was that kind of guy.)

Kurt was going through MAJOR life changes during the summer between Junior and Senior year. He had always been fairly "straight laced," but he became very much the opposite. I had been fooling with pot and alcohol for years, but I never knew Kurt to do that. Then, over that summer, he had some pot and shared it with me and we ate a bunch of cool whip at his condo. Weird to remember that now...

Anyway, he changed a lot and didn't seem completely happy about it. I remember that he wanted to be in the CIA. I don't know if he really meant that, but it didn't seem out of the question. He was that kind of guy. Then, that summer, it seemed like he had given up on being serious and was drifting. He specifically said something about not being able to be in the CIA now that he had used drugs (we were kids, we thought we knew how things worked). I guess now, as an adult, I would describe him as lost. He had become unmoored and was drifting.

Kurt was never a "happy" person to begin with. His family life seemed a bit cold. I can't remember if he lived with his mom or his dad in a condo in Concord, near what is now the Sleep Train Pavillion. I was there a handful of times and didn't see much of whichever parent it was. Most of the rest of my friends, I knew their parents. Just a random thing, but it makes me think now that he might have been a bit alone.

He stood out at school. He seemed impervious to the BS of high school, though. He seemed beyond it, like he knew better things were ahead. Then, I always wondered if maybe he had lost that belief a bit, and that was what had happened.

I don't remember the police telling us anything interesting at school, like has been previously posted here. I was interviewed by SFPD in San Francisco, I went to Kurt's funeral, I discussed it endlessly with all the rest of his friends. There was never anything weird or Satanic as far as I remember, and I would. I don't know anything about the person posting those things, and maybe I am the one who is wrong, but I would suggest taking them with a grain of salt.

I would not be surprised if Kurt was expressing interest to some older student about spiritual things, but I don't think that was a large part of his life. I never heard about it, anyway.

I don't know for certain who the secret friend in the segment was (haven't seen it for years) but I *think* I know, and I would not take that testimony too seriously. I have no first hand info, but it seemed to me like that person was just enjoying the spotlight, and if it's the person I think, that would be in character.

I was not surprised that Kurt was involved with the SCA people. He showed me some stuff, and it seemed cool. It was a very "in character" think for Kurt to get involved with.

I don't guess we will ever know, but I think and always thought that there was not much mystery to Kurt's death. I never decided whether I thought it was an accident or a suicide. How would we ever know, unless he told someone (which would not have been like Kurt, I don't think). I and my friends always assumed that the police investigated so closely for two reasons: First, becuase Kurt had spent the night with an adult. In retrospect, that seems even weirder now than it did then. Second, Kurt had always been so straight-laced, so it seemed unlikely that he would end up like he did.

To me, though, that last is the key. Kurt was a bit different, never fit into the school scene (at least not like we all wanted to), but he dealt with it by seeing himself as better than all that. When I last saw him, he seemed to see himself as "fallen." No longer exceptional.

I was too young to know what a neat guy he was. He was, though. Personally, I think it was just a bad combination of events (which ones I don't know, but probably nothing so interesting as Satanic Murder) and a slip between the cracks, and we lost him.

If his family or other friends read this, please know I cared about Kurt, too, and he was definitely a special person.

Thank you so much for posting, nothereforlong. We appreciate you sharing your memories of Kurt and your thoughts on what might have happened. I too think it was probably an accident. I never bought the satanism angle and the SCA just is what it is.

Kurt sounded like someone whose company I would like to keep. Thanks for letting us know a little bit about him.

I stumbled on this article a friend of Kurt's wrote earlier in the year. It's a very good read, well written, somtimes sentimental and sometimes funny despite the serious nature. It should be noted that most of the responses to it are troll infested.

http://slopeofhope.com/2013/03/my-youthful-friendship-with-death.html

I am curious what the writer means by "weird sex" and wonder if that related to Kurt's death at all.

Yes, this continued mention of "weird sex" annoys me. Did these people have sex in King Arthur drag?

your posts are hilarious thinwhinduke. Do you think Kurt and Gabriel had relations?

If I were to judge by the info presented in the episode, I'd say Something Weird happened between them that night. I don't believe in ritual disembowelment or dancing with cloven feet -- that's eighties bull****.

I wonder what the Dad's reaction was to his son sleeping over at an adult's house. I think a parent would be naturally curious about such an arrangement, if not, outright angry at the idea.

I wonder what the Dad's reaction was to his son sleeping over at an adult's house. I think a parent would be naturally curious about such an arrangement, if not, outright angry at the idea.Just food for thought, but I wonder how honest Kurt was with his family. I don't know all the details about the case, but perhaps Kurt didn't fully inform his family about Carradoc and his group.

At Kurt's age, it would not surprise me if Kurt was a bit secretive about his life given that he was becoming more independent.

I find this entire case really odd. Almost as odd as Carradoc. I mean, he said that Kurt wanted to swim in the freezing bay waters....now that's weird...

I find this entire case really odd. Almost as odd as Carradoc. I mean, he said that Kurt wanted to swim in the freezing bay waters....now that's weird...

Yeah that does seem weird. Although I should point out that Kurt was found without a shirt or shoes/socks on. He probably would have taken those things off if he went for a swim. I wonder if there's a possibility he could have been attacked by a sea creature or something.

I wonder what the Dad's reaction was to his son sleeping over at an adult's house. I think a parent would be naturally curious about such an arrangement, if not, outright angry at the idea.

I have wondered this too. Tom McFall didn't seem like he was the biggest Gabriel Carrillo fan in the world, but I'm only going on his impression of the group and Carrillo's comment that McFall found him a "convenient" person to blame for Kurt's death.

Yeah that does seem weird. Although I should point out that Kurt was found without a shirt or shoes/socks on. He probably would have taken those things off if he went for a swim. I wonder if there's a possibility he could have been attacked by a sea creature or something.

Since moving to Hawaii and being in the midst of a surfing culture for the first time, there are news stories from time to time about sharks and shark attack survivors. One thing they have all had in common thus far is that they are typically very visibly scarred or maimed. Often reconstructive surgery was involved because the injuries were so severe. For that reason, I tend to think Kurt was not attacked by anything in the water. Kurt had bruises and scratches, but he wasn't chewed up.

I used to think Caradoc's explanation of Kurt's death seemed plausible (he mentions getting pulled in by an undertow), but then I realized the coroner said he died from mulitple injuries and blood loss. I tend to think he simply fell over the edge, and that the reason he was found in only his jeans was because he intended to go for a swim. And Caradoc does bring up an excellent point at the end of the segment, "If I wanted to murder somebody, the last person I would murder would be somebody who was staying at my house and whose father knew that he was staying in my house. I mean, the whole thing is stupid."

I used to think Caradoc's explanation of Kurt's death seemed plausible (he mentions getting pulled in by an undertow), but then I realized the coroner said he died from mulitple injuries and blood loss. I tend to think he simply fell over the edge, and that the reason he was found in only his jeans was because he intended to go for a swim. And Caradoc does bring up an excellent point at the end of the segment, "If I wanted to murder somebody, the last person I would murder would be somebody who was staying at my house and whose father knew that he was staying in my house. I mean, the whole thing is stupid."

I found his explanations quite plausible as well.

I don't have much to add at this point to what others (or even I myself) have already said but I've been thinking about Kurt a lot lately. Over the years in regards to this case, I've been prone to vacillate in regards to what may have happened or what did happen to Kurt. At the moment, I'm leaning towards believing something of a sinister nature may have taken place here.

I think even if we throw all the Satanic overtones involved in this case out, we are left with as RS stated, a young man who drifted from the world in which he was raised into a world that quite frankly that very few people around him understood. Everything I've ever read about this transformation in Kurt McFall describes it as being severe enough to have not only dominated his psyche but also alienate him from his once familiar surroundings. Maybe that means something, maybe that means nothing. But if something sinister did happen to Kurt McFall, what is truly disturbing is the fact that the people who knew him best during the latter part of his life have never been able to offer up anything as detailed regarding his character when compared to those whom we have heard from. What led Kurt McFall to join these groups? What were his relationships with those people within these groups? What exactly went on in these groups that may have potentially led to McFall's death?

I've actually never read anything about the transformation in Kurt's psyche, but I'm interested. Could you post something that touches on this specifically? I've apparently been missing this in my own research.

I honestly don't think there was anything "sinister" about Caradoc's group, or more obvious, the Medieval group that Kurt was a member of. I think the majority of the people found their practices "weird" or "offbeat", and didn't understand the appeal of them, so when Kurt wound up dead they were an easy target to facilitate the blame of his death. Remember Michael Johnston and Rochelle Robinson? Their segment was filmed in the early 90's, IIRC, and UM made such a huge deal about them playing "Magic: The Gathering". Back in the early 90's it was more of an underground type of thing that not many people understood the appeal of. But as it caught on, it became more and more popular as the years passed. Can you imagine if there was a true crime show that was produced today were a couple was found murdered in 2013 and they tried to say it may have been the result of playing "Magic" and hinted at cult like activities?! People have a tendency to place some sort of odd or semi-mysticism on these activities/things that they don't understand, which is exactly what I think the people who knew Kurt were doing with Caradoc's group.

First off, just to address some the things that have been said...

I agree with everyone that said the satanic panic angle of this case was ridiculous but....I find Caradoc's relationship with Kurt, well, a bit shady.

I read on Gabriel Carillo's obituary that he had a male partner. This kind of makes me wonder what kind of relationship Kurt had with Gabriel. After all, Kurt allegedly went to the movies with Gabriel. If Kurt was undergoing some sort of identity crisis, it would not surprise me if Kurt looked up to Gabriel as some sort of mentor, or maybe another type of figure in his life.

IMO, there is much more to this case than meets the eye. It would be interesting to hear from the people who were involved in Gabriel's group at the time of Kurt's death.

I've actually never read anything about the transformation in Kurt's psyche, but I'm interested. Could you post something that touches on this specifically? I've apparently been missing this in my own research.

I think the link I posted the other day has some mentionings of it.

http://slopeofhope.com/2013/03/my-youthful-friendship-with-death.html

One nugget from that article I found particularly interesting that I missed before: it said that Kurt vastly preferred hanging out with the author and his group of friends over his divorced dad's place. It kind of sounds like the relationship between Kurt and his father was strained, and not being around his mother may have been a factor of that.

I read on Gabriel Carillo's obituary that he had a male partner. This kind of makes me wonder what kind of relationship Kurt had with Gabriel. After all, Kurt allegedly went to the movies with Gabriel. If Kurt was undergoing some sort of identity crisis, it would not surprise me if Kurt looked up to Gabriel as some sort of mentor, or maybe another type of figure in his life.

I just read his obituary. Sounds like he had many talents. I must admit I got a kick out of the end of his interview where he says "bbbbuuuutttt, I am in no way responsible for Kurt's death." and then kind of shrugs his shoulders at the whole thing.

Most people on here think Gabriel is innocent, but I just can't shake the feeling that something weird happened at his home that night. Perhaps he didn't kill Kurt himself, but I do wonder if he knew more than he let on.

Well if Kurt's relationship with his father was strained, it doesn't surprise me at all that he was hanging out with Caradoc. He probably looked up to him as a mentor type figure. The article written by Kurt's friend says he would talk about everything that the ordinary 16 year old boy would talk about (girls, girls, and more girls). I don't get the impression at all that there was anything sexual between Kurt and Caradoc.

I just read his obituary. Sounds like he had many talents. I must admit I got a kick out of the end of his interview where he says "bbbbuuuutttt, I am in no way responsible for Kurt's death." and then kind of shrugs his shoulders at the whole thing.

Most people on here think Gabriel is innocent, but I just can't shake the feeling that something weird happened at his home that night. Perhaps he didn't kill Kurt himself, but I do wonder if he knew more than he let on.I concur. As I said before, it would be very interesting to hear from the people who were involved in Caradoc's group.

Even though the whole satanic panic aspect of the case was amped up, it's not unusual to find power hungry individuals try to control people in such groups. I'm not saying Caradoc is bad person, but I still wonder what kind of person he was. It would be easy for him to influence the young people around him.

It seems like Kurt trusted and looked up to Caradoc as a kind of role model figure or something...

Well if Kurt's relationship with his father was strained, it doesn't surprise me at all that he was hanging out with Caradoc. He probably looked up to him as a mentor type figure. The article written by Kurt's friend says he would talk about everything that the ordinary 16 year old boy would talk about (girls, girls, and more girls). I don't get the impression at all that there was anything sexual between Kurt and Caradoc.

I tend to agree. He's kind of weird. I don't think Kurt's father particularly cared for him. But I don't get the feeling that there was anything more to that relationship than a mutual interest in pagan religion (going on the things said in the segment, it sounds like it was probably Wicca, specifically) and possibly other intellectual mutualities.

I think this was touched upon by another poster years ago, and while my knowledge of SCA and things related to it is minimal at best, I do know that those suits of armor (Kurt's was missing out of his vehicle and likely stolen) are VERY expensive, sometimes running well in excess of $1,000. I do have to wonder if that may have been another possible motive for Kurt's murder, if he was in fact murdered. It would also explain why the $20 bill was left behind, it was chump change compared to the suit. Although I do believe that if the suit was stolen, someone would likely have to know that 1) the suit was very expensive, 2) Kurt had it in his trunk. I can't discount the possibility of bums stumbling on it, but who knows. So many possibilities with this case.

The suit of armor is an interesting lead and I wonder how much LE devoted to it, and if it turned up anywhere. There is an interesting caveat to it: it would have to fit someone of Kurt's size in order to be of much use to them. A morbidly obese person, for example, wouldn't fit in it. There also aren't millions of them floating around.

Investigators found beer cans scattered around his car, IIRC, and the segment showed the driver's door open. Wouldn't surprise me if some teenagers stumbled upon the car, riffled through it and took the armor. I've always thought the missing armor was a red herring in this case.

One nugget from that article I found particularly interesting that I missed before: it said that Kurt vastly preferred hanging out with the author and his group of friends over his divorced dad's place. It kind of sounds like the relationship between Kurt and his father was strained, and not being around his mother may have been a factor of that.

Perfectly normal teen behavior. I didn't want to hang out with my parents at McFall's age either.

Thank you so much for posting, nothereforlong. We appreciate you sharing your memories of Kurt and your thoughts on what might have happened. I too think it was probably an accident. I never bought the satanism angle and the SCA just is what it is.

Kurt sounded like someone whose company I would like to keep. Thanks for letting us know a little bit about him.
I knew Kurt too.

Friends since 7th grade and pallbearer at his funeral. Visited his gravesite today while visiting other (live) friends as well in the area.

My experience with Kurt was the same, if not nearly identical. I knew Kurt lived with his Dad (whom I only met at the funeral) in his condo. His Mom lived in a separate house in Concord (don't remember her either - Kurt once played house there for a few days with a girlfriend while Mom was away somewhere for a week or so).

We all played D&D, played war games for fun. Smoked herb, drank beer, went to parties, went to school dances and did our best in school to the probable surprise of our respective parents.

I didn't know about the SCA (I seem to recall hearing about this as more war game stuff done with some Kurt's other friends) and definitely not the Wicca stuff until years later. I am not surprised about not knowing as we all kept parts of ourselves in different circles of friends separate from other parts of our lives and the people in this parts of our lives in those tough years of finding ourselves in high school.

Kurt was a good guy, a bit quirky - aren't we all?

I think of him often and the things he has missed out in a future he never had the opportunity to live. It has been 29 years and I have never forgotten Kurt and the impact this had on his friends. Having kids of my own now - I can only imagine how his parents must feel (I still remember the look on their faces as we carried the casket to the grave and I will remember that look forever and hope that that will never be me with our children).

I have read all the posts and the theories and etc. I agree with the earlier poster as I always thought that this was an accident or a suicide and really hoped the former as the latter is all the more tragic. Like many others, Kurt and I drifted apart that last summer as he was busy with other things. We all were.

Kurt was shaky and seemed spooked the first week of high school that year. Looking back and with years of experience now with me, I can see that he was very anxious and seemed to be having anxiety issues. I knew that he had started getting into some other things over the summer but didn't really know what for sure as we weren't talking much.

My biggest regret is wishing I had talked to him more at school that last week before that last weekend. May be this would have made a difference. May be.

I have volunteered for years with high school kids and now watch our own children grow up and enter this ever so much more complicated world. Thinking of what happened with Kurt - I am always thinking now of where I may be able to make a difference. Perhaps this is Kurt's legacy for me.

As the person at the memorial park told me today "You never forget the people in your life who left at a young age." Sad but very true.

re-watched. For as many times as I've seen this segment, I picked up some new things.

Stack: "Kurt planned to spend the night at Carrodic's house. They had dinner. Went to a movie..."

Quite honestly, that sounds like a date. But perhaps I'm just over-analyzing. Nowadays, homosexuality is a lot more discussed and accepted. But back then, it wasn't. Maybe in San Francisco, but I'm doubting Kurt, assuming for a second he was gay, 1) realized it, 2) acted upon it, and with a nerdy, pudgy older man. Possible, but highly unlikely.

I used to think Carrodic was this corny, yet harmless character based on his interview. But after hearing the comments about how he came on to students, I'm getting bad vibes off him. I couldn't help but notice in the segment practically all of the people sitting in the circle chanting "Oh Hail, Mother of Earth" all looked incredibly young. Something just doesn't sit right.

Not to get too sexually graphic here, but if Kurt had "bottomed", I'm betting the person conducting the autopsy would have found evidence of that. The cuts and abrasions also bothered me.

I'm not ready to dismiss the possible Satanic connection though. Sure, the SCA and Dungeons and Dragons are harmless enough, but what about the stuff Kurt's dad found in his room? The violent drawings, the doodads, I think something was going on there that wasn't exactly normal.

Also, I couldn't help but notice that his car appeared to be stuck in the mud and required a tow truck to pull it out. Would Kurt have done that?

I would be interested in knowing if a time of death was ever established. I think that could be important. It's possible Kurt was dead before 3 a.m. when Carrodic alleged he went out for a swim, and Carrodic waited until the middle of the night to dump the body when there would be no one around.

I have no idea what to make of the cuts and abrasions. On one hand, it was labeled his cause of death, along with acute blood loss, but the lifeguard says the body was in reasonably good shape. I have no reason to doubt him. Perhaps the water washed away any evidence of that though, so the cuts looked clean. Perhaps he acquired them beforehand. Who knows.

This may be getting down in the weeds, but Carrodic claimed that Kurt knocked on his door at 3 a.m. and stated "it's too hot in here, I'm going swimming." That seems odd. Why didn't he just ask for a fan, or the air conditioning to be turned on, or even open a window? Going out and swimming at that time of night is just strange, especially since he won't be able to see to swim. I'm completely baffled now.

where's thinwhiteduke74?

re-watched. For as many times as I've seen this segment, I picked up some new things.

Stack: "Kurt planned to spend the night at Carrodic's house. They had dinner. Went to a movie..."

Quite honestly, that sounds like a date. But perhaps I'm just over-analyzing. Nowadays, homosexuality is a lot more discussed and accepted. But back then, it wasn't. Maybe in San Francisco, but I'm doubting Kurt, assuming for a second he was gay, 1) realized it, 2) acted upon it, and with a nerdy, pudgy older man. Possible, but highly unlikely.

I don't know. I mean, I understand where you are coming from. On the other hand, I always figured that maybe Kurt looked up to Caradoc as an older, wiser mentor-type figure and nothing more.

I have no idea what to make of the cuts and abrasions. On one hand, it was labeled his cause of death, along with acute blood loss, but the lifeguard says the body was in reasonably good shape. I have no reason to doubt him. Perhaps the water washed away any evidence of that though, so the cuts looked clean. Perhaps he acquired them beforehand. Who knows.

There are shots shown during the segment of what I presume is the area near where Kurt's body was recovered. There are a lot of pointy-looking rocks. I always figured he slipped and skidded down the cliff on his back. That would likely explain the cuts and abrasions.

This may be getting down in the weeds, but Carrodic claimed that Kurt knocked on his door at 3 a.m. and stated "it's too hot in here, I'm going swimming." That seems odd. Why didn't he just ask for a fan, or the air conditioning to be turned on, or even open a window? Going out and swimming at that time of night is just strange, especially since he won't be able to see to swim. I'm completely baffled now.

I think the segment also mentioned he had hit the beach at midnight too. Maybe he couldn't sleep and decided to head out again?

Here's something I've always considered when discussing this case: if you take away Kurt's association with "Caradoc", this would be nothing more than a guy who fell off a cliff and died accidentally. Knowing UM's penchant for playing up the "satanic" aspect of certain cases, I'm not surprised that they injected as much of this (even mentioning his involvement with the SCA) as possible into the segment. Think about it: would it really be smart for "Caradoc" and his "cult" to murder Kurt on the same day he told his father he would be spending the night at his house!? Not to mention murder him in a way that would fool members of the coast guard into thinking Kurt fell over the cliff and died accidentally. In the words of "Caradoc", "the whole thing is stupid."

Here's something I've always considered when discussing this case: if you take away Kurt's association with "Caradoc", this would be nothing more than a guy who fell off a cliff and died accidentally. Knowing UM's penchant for playing up the "satanic" aspect of certain cases, I'm not surprised that they injected as much of this (even mentioning his involvement with the SCA) as possible into the segment. Think about it: would it really be smart for "Caradoc" and his "cult" to murder Kurt on the same day he told his father he would be spending the night at his house!? Not to mention murder him in a way that would fool members of the coast guard into thinking Kurt fell over the cliff and died accidentally. In the words of "Caradoc", "the whole thing is stupid."

Exactly. Also, if Kurt was in fear of his life, as the one friend alleged, why would he willingly go spend the evening with Caradoc anyway?

There are shots shown during the segment of what I presume is the area near where Kurt's body was recovered. There are a lot of pointy-looking rocks. I always figured he slipped and skidded down the cliff on his back. That would likely explain the cuts and abrasions.

The thing is though, not only did he not say he was going rock climbing, but he wasn't wearing shoes. I can't imagine him climbing the sharp rocks barefoot as that would have no doubt been painful. I wonder what his feet looked like when they found him. And again, you have the nighttime angle -- would Kurt go rock climbing when he can't see? It would have been extremely dangerous.

In Carrodic's defense, he describes Kurt as "bright" and didn't seem to have any personal animosity towards him, even after Kurt had left the group. But on the other hand, if Kurt's visit to him wasn't related to the Wiccan group, you have to wonder what the nature of their relationship/his visit was.

The thing is though, not only did he not say he was going rock climbing, but he wasn't wearing shoes. I can't imagine him climbing the sharp rocks barefoot as that would have no doubt been painful. I wonder what his feet looked like when they found him. And again, you have the nighttime angle -- would Kurt go rock climbing when he can't see? It would have been extremely dangerous.

Shoes could have come off during the tumble and fall and been whisked away by the current.

Who knows what visibility was like? He did go swimming/surfing at midnight too.

In Carrodic's defense, he describes Kurt as "bright" and didn't seem to have any personal animosity towards him, even after Kurt had left the group. But on the other hand, if Kurt's visit to him wasn't related to the Wiccan group, you have to wonder what the nature of their relationship/his visit was.

With both parties dead, it's not like we'll ever know.

wiseguy182, you brought up an interesting point. Most of the members in Caradoc's group were young people. Maybe I'm over analyzing the case, but it's kind of strange since most people involved in paganism are usually older. Perhaps Caradoc had a specific interest in recruiting young people. Obviously the whole satanic panic angle is overblown, but it wouldn't surprise me if Caradoc wanted some form of control over his disciples.

Also, I still find it very strange that Kurt McFall would want to go for a swim in the freezing SF waters. SF is chilly at night, even during the summer months. If they were in Concord, I would think otherwise...

Shoes could have come off during the tumble and fall and been whisked away by the current.

Perhaps. But it seems unlikely he would lose both shoes, unless they were flip-flops or some other loose fitting footwear. And wouldn't there be blood evidence on the rocks?

The more I think about it, the more I think his death was foul play and that the entire scene is staged.

I don't believe he intended to swim at 3, nor do I believe he swam at midnight. Remember, all of that stuff is coming from Carrodic, and if he's responsible, everything he says should be taken with a grain of salt. I don't believe he would have braved the freezing waters, done it in the middle of the night when vision is poor (and it was also not allowed according to one poster) and scaled rocks in bare feet to get there. He was also wearing pants and not, say, a swim suit or swimming trunks or anything of that nature. And why didn't he carry a towel to dry off with? Nothing about the scene or manner in which Kurt was found jives with the theory he went or intended to go swimming.

The more I think about it, the more I think foul play was involved. This was one of the biggest cities in the most populated state in the union. It was middle of the night. Land's End is known to be a particularly dangerous section of San Fran. Combine all that, and I think he ran into someone dangerous. Who that was exactly, I don't know. If the comments that his body was scored with weird carvings and whip lash marks are true, I could see that coming from Carrodic or a member of his group or I could just as easily see that as being a random perp. IMO, the missing armor suit is the most crucial piece of evidence in this case, and police should have explored that in detail. It's very expensive. Heck, it may have even been worth more than the car he was driving. It's doubtful a random bum would have swiped it as it's not the typical item you try to sell at a pawn shop, I'm betting the person who stole it knew its value or wanted it for themself. The car door being open also indicates to me Kurt left it open in a hurry or was removed from the car by force. As far as the car being littered with beer cans, it reminds me of a scene from Karate Kid, and I have to wonder if that was the movie Kurt and Carrodic went to see. It was the breakaway hit of the summer of 84 and my favorite movie of all time. Little piece of trivia I'm interested in knowing.

Btw, does anyone know why Hillary Powers was allegedly furious at her portrayal? All her segment consisted of was her mentioning Kurt was very talented and that his death didn't relate to SCA that she knew anything about. Not sure why she would be upset at that. Unless she was expecting her full interview to be played, but it didn't seem like she had that much to contribute anyways.

EDIT: I found another article that briefly mentioned Kurt and all the other weird murders at Land's End, and there is also supposedly a haunted cave in that area. Shudders.

Powers was upset because she felt UM attempted to portray the SCA as an ominous organization by only showing part of her interview in which she was donned in red costume garb, which she felt might seem "satanic" or the like to the average viewer. IIRC from the article I read about it (and it's more than likely linked somewhere in this thread), it was at the suggestion of UM staff that she don her SCA costume. I even think some of her interview had been filmed in her office while she was dressed in everyday attire, but none of that footage actually ever made it to the segment.

ETA: Found the link.
http://www.sitcomsonline.com/boards/showthread.php?t=258746

ah, I see, thanks. I guess you could say she was "red hot" about it. :lol:

Rapidly approaching the 30th anniversary.

The more I think about it, the more I think foul play was involved. This was one of the biggest cities in the most populated state in the union. It was middle of the night. Land's End is known to be a particularly dangerous section of San Fran. Combine all that, and I think he ran into someone dangerous. Who that was exactly, I don't know. If the comments that his body was scored with weird carvings and whip lash marks are true, I could see that coming from Carrodic or a member of his group or I could just as easily see that as being a random perp. IMO, the missing armor suit is the most crucial piece of evidence in this case, and police should have explored that in detail. It's very expensive. Heck, it may have even been worth more than the car he was driving. It's doubtful a random bum would have swiped it as it's not the typical item you try to sell at a pawn shop, I'm betting the person who stole it knew its value or wanted it for themself. The car door being open also indicates to me Kurt left it open in a hurry or was removed from the car by force. As far as the car being littered with beer cans, it reminds me of a scene from Karate Kid, and I have to wonder if that was the movie Kurt and Carrodic went to see. It was the breakaway hit of the summer of 84 and my favorite movie of all time. Little piece of trivia I'm interested in knowing.

Nothing I've read about this cult suggests it practiced or endorsed mutilation or sacrifice.

Wasn't Caradoc simply involved in "New Age" movements and paganism? Nothing violent in nature at all.

Wasn't Caradoc simply involved in "New Age" movements and paganism? Nothing violent in nature at all.

I did some research one night over the weekend about Carrillo's group based on an old thread in which justin posted some particularly interesting links (I linked it above in my last post).

Carrillo and his group practiced witchcraft in the Feri tradition. The tradition is considered non-Wiccan, meaning that its practitioners do not adhere to the beliefs and tenets of that religion (or any particular religion in general--they just plain practice witchcraft). Apparently, Carrillo was initiated into this tradition by the actual founders of the movement themselves in the early '70s. Carrillo's group--or coven--was known (and is known today) as Bloodrose, and has had considerable influence on the Feri tradition as a whole. I think I read on some Feri website that it has initiated more members than any other coven within the tradition.

Two things I found rather interesting about Feri is that firstly, it places a large emphasis on sensuality and sexual mysticism, and secondly, it does not subscribe to the Law of Threefold Return.

Personal feelings about human sexuality, morality, and ethics aside, religious and spiritual groups or movements that emphasize sexual intercourse or acts as having great potential for spiritual enlightenment and experience tend to have problems with abuse accusations. Whether the majority of them are legitimate or not is something I have no way of knowing, but they do happen frequently, from guru discipleships to pagan groups such as these. Perhaps Kurt could have been uncomfortable with some of the coven's practices--whether it was absolutely consensual practices between competent adults, or actual possible criminal acts.

The Law of Threefold Return is a religious or spiritual concept in some forms of witchcraft--particularly Wiccan witchcraft--that holds that whatever force one releases out into the world, be it for good or evil, will return to that person "threefold". For example, if one decides to curse or hex an individual, object, or event, he or she should be prepared for that negative energy to come back to him/her with increased force--or that the negative force will affect one's body, mind, and soul--or that it will return in the next life (if one subscribes to the notion of reincarnation). I know there's a lot of controversy about the concept in Wicca and witchcraft, and please bear in mind, I'm not a pagan nor a witch. But the tenet does appear to conform to the mores of common human decency: you do bad, you get bad, so don't do bad. I have absolutely no reason at all whatsoever to believe that the vast majority of Feri traditionalists feel completely morally unconstrained to hex stuff left and right, but it would seem that it would be relatively easier to use the comparatively loose structure of the tradition as cover for dark deeds. Perhaps Kurt could have even felt uncomfortable with something related to that. Just thinking aloud.

The Law of Threefold Return is a religious or spiritual concept in some forms of witchcraft--particularly Wiccan witchcraft--that holds that whatever force one releases out into the world, be it for good or evil, will return to that person "threefold". For example, if one decides to curse or hex an individual, object, or event, he or she should be prepared for that negative energy to come back to him/her with increased force--or that the negative force will affect one's body, mind, and soul--or that it will return in the next life (if one subscribes to the notion of reincarnation). I know there's a lot of controversy about the concept in Wicca and witchcraft, and please bear in mind, I'm not a pagan nor a witch. But the tenet does appear to conform to the mores of common human decency: you do bad, you get bad, so don't do bad. I have absolutely no reason at all whatsoever to believe that the vast majority of Feri traditionalists feel completely morally unconstrained to hex stuff left and right, but it would seem that it would be relatively easier to use the comparatively loose structure of the tradition as cover for dark deeds. Perhaps Kurt could have even felt uncomfortable with something related to that. Just thinking aloud.

Slow day at work today and I was thinking about this case...

Granted, I know a miniscule amount about Wicca and witchcraft, but following the logic about the Threefold Return posted above, wouldn't practitioners of the faith be more inclined to do good deeds? To believe the reverse, if something negative is done, it's coming back threefold, no?

So, if the cult did murder McFall, what would happen to the murderers?

Interesting note: This thread was started on the same day I joined the forum. April 11, 2006.

Was Kurt ever checked for signs of sexual trauma?

Was Kurt ever checked for signs of sexual trauma?

Unfortunately, there is virtually little information about the McFall case itself outside the UM segment and a few brief articles online, plus more stuff that is about the various groups (SCA and the Bloodrose group) but the latter don't mention McFall at all.

In short, it is unknown if what you are asking was done.

I've watched this case numerous times, and I've read through this entire thread and I can't for the life of me figure out how anyone could think this was a suicide/accident. I'm also completely baffled that a lot of people think that "Caradoc" was innocent because he didn't seem threatening. A lot of people don't seem to be a murderer but they are, you can't put anyone above suspicion because of a TV interview.

While speaking of Caradoc, I have a strong feeling that he's guilty of Kurt's death. Look at his interview closely he's clearly lying. His eyes move side to side constantly, and he stutters a great deal. Also, he was the last person to our knowledge to have seen Kurt alive, we have his testimony only - which should be taken with a grain of salt.

Kurt's lack of clothing, Gabriel's story, and the scene of the car doesn't make sense. He went out for a swim or run, but didn't have a shirt? Socks/footwear? And a missing belt buckle? It's also interesting to note that his driver's license was found on the floor and his keys on the passenger seat, someone else obviously did this. And why the missing belt buckle? Kurt wasn't killed on that beach. it seems like Kurt was killed elsewhere and someone panicked and quickly dumped him there and staged that phony car scene.

In closing, Caradoc should've been considered extremely dangerous. He's a cult leader. It doesn't matter to what group/religion because cult leader's thrive on mind control and ego. He also was reported for having sexual contact with minors, so why anyone think he didn't do it because "he said he didn't" is beyond me. All cult/religious leaders should be considered dangerous. Never underestimate the power of a cult leader. Gabriel, and Kurt went to a dinner and a movie, then Kurt turns up dead. I'm willing to bet either there was a sexual encounter gone wrong, or Kurt was attacked while sleep or in a rage after he turned down his advances. It really seems odd that they went on a "date" and Kurt was killed shortly after.

Kurt was murdered, and the murderer died a few years ago.

Nah. Cult leaders are often kooks but their fashion sense is often the most dangerous thing about them.

Nah. Cult leaders are often kooks but their fashion sense is often the most dangerous thing about them.

:rolleyes: Look at how many Cult-like deaths/suicides have taken place over the years. Look at the amount of families that get driven apart because of cults. A 30-year old man hanging around teens isn't clearly all there.

Lots of people are terrible on camera -- liars and honest men. Shifty eyes aren't suspicious. This man was accused of killing a teen who was a member of his warlock wannabes. Of course he'd lose his cool.

Lots of people are terrible on camera -- liars and honest men. Shifty eyes aren't suspicious. This man was accused of killing a teen who was a member of his warlock wannabes. Of course he'd lose his cool.

Shifty eyes are indeed a sign of suspicion. They're not ALWAYS suspicious, but it is without doubt a sign of suspicion. Even then there's a lot more to Caradoc than his "shifty eyes".

You seem to keep downplaying Caradoc's role for what reason I don't know. Just because someone looks like a "nerd" or "harmless" doesn't mean that they're not dangerous. I thought that was obvious.

As I've stated all cult groups/activity are dangerous. Caradoc was a pedophile. It was known that he came on to the CHILDREN of his group. He isn't just some harmless nerd with funny glasses. I should elaborate that I don't think all pedophiles are murderers, but given the fact Caradoc was a pedophile, a cult leader, and the last person who seen Kurt alive after they had gone on a date, it's pretty clear cut.

I'm sure a lot of people thought Marshall Applewhite from the Heaven's Gate group was just a harmless, kooky, crazy, Star Trek obsessed old man, but look at the mass suicide he led.

Never underestimate anyone.

I've read about that guy. It's probable that he hit on and possibly had sex with these young men. I said it upthread.

I've read about that guy. It's probable that he hit on and possibly had sex with these young men. I said it upthread.

Uh huh. So, if you read about him why exactly do you think he's innocent? Serious answer, please. No "he looks weird and like a nerd". In fact, no one in this thread gave a serious answer to why they think he's innocent other than "he looks goofy" and "he said he didn't do it because he said Kurt's father knew he was at his house".

I'm really confused as to why the majority think he's innocent. I've read the thread, but it seems like his role is downplayed but he was a Wiccan or a nerd.

It's not that I think he's innocent; it's that the evidence points to accidental death, not murder. The episode's hysterical tone (SATANIC CULT WHOA NELLY!) didn't help, but then again why would we watch the show if it played like a documentary?

It's not that I think he's innocent; it's that the evidence points to accidental death, not murder. The episode's hysterical tone (SATANIC CULT WHOA NELLY!) didn't help, but then again why would we watch the show if it played like a documentary?

True, they definitely cheesed it up with the over-the-top Satanic Panic stuff, but you're right it does draw in the viewers.

Also, I very much respect your opinion, I wasn't trying to argue or shoot you down, I was just very curious as to why people thought his death was accidental. I tried to go with that scenario but, like someone else had mentioned here Kurt's clothing doesn't match that he was going for a "swim" or a "climb". It feels like someone just quickly dumped him there, which explains just him wearing pants and nothing else.

Anyway, guess we'll never know what the real truth is.

True, they definitely cheesed it up with the over-the-top Satanic Panic stuff, but you're right it does draw in the viewers.

Also, I very much respect your opinion, I wasn't trying to argue or shoot you down, I was just very curious as to why people thought his death was accidental. I tried to go with that scenario but, like someone else had mentioned here Kurt's clothing doesn't match that he was going for a "swim" or a "climb". It feels like someone just quickly dumped him there, which explains just him wearing pants and nothing else.

Anyway, guess we'll never know what the real truth is.
The lack of clothing on the body and the injuries make me question how it could be accidental.

The lack of clothing on the body and the injuries make me question how it could be accidental.

Bingo. It's a clear cut case of murder. Anyone saying otherwise was clearly fooled by the phony car scene. I'm not saying Caradoc 100% killed Kurt, but someone did.

How could you defend it was an accident when he wasn't wearing any shoes/socks? I could buy the missing shirt if it was hot like Caradoc claimed, but driving on a hot night with no socks or shoes? And why would someone leave the house without a belt buckle? That also seems hard to lose in the water if your belt was fastened.

And if Kurt was drinking all of that beer where did he get it from? Wasn't he a minor? Unless he got it from Caradoc it was strange that a minor had that much beer, unless he paid someone to buy it for him, but it is odd.

If you think about it logically nothing makes sense. He was supposedly going out for a "swim" or a "run" but ended up drinking a ton of beer shirtless/shoeless instead and accidentally fell to his death? That whole explanation is just lazy. That theory doesn't match up with the abrasions on his back/shoulders and lack of clothing.

Don't believe in the words of a stuttering, nervous acting pedophiliac cult leader.

Bingo. It's a clear cut case of murder. Anyone saying otherwise was clearly fooled by the phony car scene. I'm not saying Caradoc 100% killed Kurt, but someone did.

How could you defend it was an accident when he wasn't wearing any shoes/socks? I could buy the missing shirt if it was hot like Caradoc claimed, but driving on a hot night with no socks or shoes? And why would someone leave the house without a belt buckle? That also seems hard to lose in the water if your belt was fastened.

And if Kurt was drinking all of that beer where did he get it from? Wasn't he a minor? Unless he got it from Caradoc it was strange that a minor had that much beer, unless he paid someone to buy it for him, but it is odd.

If you think about it logically nothing makes sense. He was supposedly going out for a "swim" or a "run" but ended up drinking a ton of beer shirtless/shoeless instead and accidentally fell to his death? That whole explanation is just lazy. That theory doesn't match up with the abrasions on his back/shoulders and lack of clothing.

Don't believe in the words of a stuttering, nervous acting pedophiliac cult leader.

I could see him getting drunk and falling to his death accidentally. Parents don't always know their kids well and he could have done it. But losing clothes and the abrasions..ah no.

I could see him getting drunk and falling to his death accidentally. Parents don't always know their kids well and he could have done it. But losing clothes and the abrasions..ah no.

I never stated that Kurt didn't drink. I also didn't state that his father knew he didn't drink. My question was where did a minor get that much beer from at 3 in the morning? Maybe from Caradoc, or someone else, but I find it weird that a 17 year-old not only got that much beer at 3 a.m. but drunk all of it. He looked like a light weight to me.

My main point being was that he was going for a run/swim but instead drunk what seemed like a lot of beer by himself at 3 am. Where did a minor purchase beer from? And he was allowed in the liquor store shirtless, and shoeless? Maybe he took it from somewhere, but I'm just wondering where he got it from. It seems like we forget he was a minor. You need an ID for alcohol.

Also - why would a 17 year old drink beer alone? I didn't begin drinking alone until a later age....college.

Teens typically drink with their peers, gaining acceptance or solidarity with an "in group".

I don't buy that his dad's statement that McFall didn't drink. Reminds me of Sova's parents, when Dorothy stated that Kurt Sova did not drink. Yet his friends all agreed that he did. I am sure he drank, but not alone, and not in that quantity.

I wrote somewhere else once that I sorta have the impression that Kurt McFall and his father's relationship was rocky. That might explain why he was around the older dude. But the idea that a minor was staying at Caradoc's place nerves me.

I drank alone at 17 when my parents were out. I'd sneak beers. Not a big deal.

I can't remember if I've commented on this case before, but I just re-read a synopsis of the segment and to me Kurt's death is INCREDIBLY suspicious.

First of all, a teenage boy hanging out in an older man's apartment? So obviously this Carrillo guy is into teen boys and just happens to also be a cult leader (cult leaders are notorious for being sexually abusive of cult members). Hmm.

Secondly, Kurt wanted to "go swimming" at 3am? IN SAN FRANCISCO??!! The water is cold as hell and the place where he was found was not exactly a tranquil swimming hole but rather a choppy and freezing nightmare. There is 100% no way Kurt voluntarily went for a swim that night, even if he was beyond wasted.

I can't remember if I've commented on this case before, but I just re-read a synopsis of the segment and to me Kurt's death is INCREDIBLY suspicious.

First of all, a teenage boy hanging out in an older man's apartment? So obviously this Carrillo guy is into teen boys and just happens to also be a cult leader (cult leaders are notorious for being sexually abusive of cult members). Hmm.

Secondly, Kurt wanted to "go swimming" at 3am? IN SAN FRANCISCO??!! The water is cold as hell and the place where he was found was not exactly a tranquil swimming hole but rather a choppy and freezing nightmare. There is 100% no way Kurt voluntarily went for a swim that night, even if he was beyond wasted.

Also, add to the fact that some people think he went for a climb on that cliff without shoes. But I agree with all of your points. In all of my posts I kept trying to hammer home the severity of how dangerous cult leader's such as Carrillo are. Most cult leaders come off as eccentric weirdos but most are abusive, and have humungous egos. They thrive on power trips, and controlling others. I don't see how people believe his testimony so blindly, I guess it's the lack of evidence of murder, but even then this case doesn't smell right.

I wrote somewhere else once that I sorta have the impression that Kurt McFall and his father's relationship was rocky. That might explain why he was around the older dude. But the idea that a minor was staying at Caradoc's place nerves me.

Absolutely. You could tell he had little to no idea about what Kurt was doing. Maybe his father was away at work a lot, or maybe they just didn't see eye to eye. When he went into his room and found the cult-like items it's clear they didn't have much of a relationship, hence Kurt seeking guidance in that cult under Caradoc. Not too strange though. Kurt was growing into himself and trying to find himself, his whole demeanor had changed, which isn't unusual for a teenager. I'm sure I was secretive, and tried to distance myself from my parents to "find my own path" around his age.

Wouldn't surprise if he had lied about Caradoc though. He could've told his father Caradoc was a younger age or an old friend from his old school. Perhaps after Kurt's death his father discovered the truth. He didn't even know the name of the group, he just kept calling them a "satanic cult"

Gabriel Carrille, aka Gabriel Charottic passed away in 2007. He HAD to have been involved somehow. I read somewhere that he also had connections to law enforcement in San Francisco (was related to someone high up, or some such) and thus that was the reason that he was never really considered a suspect in Kurt's death.

Gabriel Carrille, aka Gabriel Charottic passed away in 2007. He HAD to have been involved somehow. I read somewhere that he also had connections to law enforcement in San Francisco (was related to someone high up, or some such) and thus that was the reason that he was never really considered a suspect in Kurt's death.

Where did you read it? The problem is, there's no way to prove such a claim or to endorse its truthfulness.

Where did you read it? The problem is, there's no way to prove such a claim or to endorse its truthfulness.

Actually, I should rephrase that. I read some years ago, (not long after Gabriel Carrillo's passing) where someone was of the opinion that Carrillo seemed awfully cozy with law enforcement in the Bay area and they suspected a possible family member connection within the ranks of law enforcement.

I too find it strange that Kurt would be hanging out with a slightly older adult like he was, but like above, Kurt could have lied to his father and Tom just suspected that Carrillo was a guy around Kurt's age. They went to a movie, had dinner together and stayed with each other at Carrillo's apartment. That alone just weirds me out, given the age difference and the kind of "power" Carrillo had over others. He being older and more worldly obviously could have had some authority over Kurt, and he, being a teen and wanting to find himself, was enthralled by Carrillo. It is true that Carrillo was gay, his obituary stated he had a male partner and some posters in the past said his "cult" involved homosexual sex. I often wonder if Kurt was unsure of his sexuality or was just curious. Perhaps he was seduced by Carrillo into engaging in gay sex, like some posters believe, and really wasn't a willing participant. It's possible that Kurt was killed by Carrillo, but even if he wasn't, I feel that Carrillo was involved in some way or knew who done it.

Might not be important, but the girl in Kurt's prom picture looked very much like Kurt. Does he have a sister or female cousin? I wonder if Tom McFall is still living?

What about this...

Kurt is at Carillo's that night and either by choice, chance, and/or intoxication, he engages in homosexual sex (or some other "weird" act to him). Then when it was over, he thinks "WTF did I just do?" and he bounces from Carillo's because Kurt needs to clear his head. He goes to the beach, possibly distraught/confused, but certainly preoccupied... and he jumps or slips on the rocks.

Now Carillo may have had nothing to do with Kurt's actual death, but I always felt he knew more than he let on. I also never believed the line "It's too hot -- I'm going to the beach." I think it may be more like "I don't like what happened here and I need to GTF out now." I just don't see why he would leave like that just because it's hot.

What about this...

Kurt is at Carillo's that night and either by choice, chance, and/or intoxication, he engages in homosexual sex (or some other "weird" act to him). Then when it was over, he thinks "WTF did I just do?" and he bounces from Carillo's because Kurt needs to clear his head. He goes to the beach, possibly distraught/confused, but certainly preoccupied... and he jumps or slips on the rocks.

Now Carillo may have had nothing to do with Kurt's actual death, but I always felt he knew more than he let on. I also never believed the line "It's too hot -- I'm going to the beach." I think it may be more like "I don't like what happened here and I need to GTF out now." I just don't see why he would leave like that just because it's hot.

Among the most plausible explanations.

What about this...

Kurt is at Carillo's that night and either by choice, chance, and/or intoxication, he engages in homosexual sex (or some other "weird" act to him). Then when it was over, he thinks "WTF did I just do?" and he bounces from Carillo's because Kurt needs to clear his head. He goes to the beach, possibly distraught/confused, but certainly preoccupied... and he jumps or slips on the rocks.

Now Carillo may have had nothing to do with Kurt's actual death, but I always felt he knew more than he let on. I also never believed the line "It's too hot -- I'm going to the beach." I think it may be more like "I don't like what happened here and I need to GTF out now." I just don't see why he would leave like that just because it's hot.

That theory makes a lot of sense, actually.

It's what I always believed happened. I don't know about suicide, although I suppose anything's possible. My take is he fled Carodoc's advances or had actually succumbed to them. How far was the slope?

What about this...

Kurt is at Carillo's that night and either by choice, chance, and/or intoxication, he engages in homosexual sex (or some other "weird" act to him). Then when it was over, he thinks "WTF did I just do?" and he bounces from Carillo's because Kurt needs to clear his head. He goes to the beach, possibly distraught/confused, but certainly preoccupied... and he jumps or slips on the rocks.

Now Carillo may have had nothing to do with Kurt's actual death, but I always felt he knew more than he let on. I also never believed the line "It's too hot -- I'm going to the beach." I think it may be more like "I don't like what happened here and I need to GTF out now." I just don't see why he would leave like that just because it's hot.


It makes sense but one thing is still doesn't account for are the staged beer cans.

I believe this is the approximate spot where Kurt's body was found (little cover area to the right). (http://media0.trover.com/T/57ea02fd74a35144c000100f/fixedw.jpg) Very dangerous looking cliffs all around the area. Kurt's car was found abandoned on this golf course (https://www.google.com/maps/search/golf+courses/@37.7860854,-122.5065157,1595m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m8!2m7!3m6!1sgolf+courses!2sOcean+Beach,+San+Francisco,+CA!3s0x8085879469edc663:0x8a1e788f0b2d67fc!4m2!1d-122.510734!2d37.7593921) which also has a state park going through it. I find the location of his car to where his body was ultimately found to be at odds with any scenario involving foul play. This was 3 in the morning in the middle of a golf course and a huge state park. How did someone with the intent to murder Kurt find him or know exactly where he was going to be?

I believe this is the approximate spot where Kurt's body was found (little cover area to the right). (http://media0.trover.com/T/57ea02fd74a35144c000100f/fixedw.jpg) Very dangerous looking cliffs all around the area. Kurt's car was found abandoned on this golf course (https://www.google.com/maps/search/golf+courses/@37.7860854,-122.5065157,1595m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m8!2m7!3m6!1sgolf+courses!2sOcean+Beach,+San+Francisco,+CA!3s0x8085879469edc663:0x8a1e788f0b2d67fc!4m2!1d-122.510734!2d37.7593921) which also has a state park going through it. I find the location of his car to where his body was ultimately found to be at odds with any scenario involving foul play. This was 3 in the morning in the middle of a golf course and a huge state park. How did someone with the intent to murder Kurt find him or know exactly where he was going to be?

Easy. They didn't find him, or knew where he was because they drove him there. It's possible more than one person was involved. Someone drove Kurt's car there, and another followed.

The abrasions only on his back, the missing belt buckle, as well as no shirt makes it seem like he was dressed quickly in a state of panic and was dropped there, or thrown off the cliff. Staged beer cans, and his I.D. being found on the passenger's side of the floor all point to foul play to me.

What about this...

Kurt is at Carillo's that night and either by choice, chance, and/or intoxication, he engages in homosexual sex (or some other "weird" act to him). Then when it was over, he thinks "WTF did I just do?" and he bounces from Carillo's because Kurt needs to clear his head. He goes to the beach, possibly distraught/confused, but certainly preoccupied... and he jumps or slips on the rocks.

Now Carillo may have had nothing to do with Kurt's actual death, but I always felt he knew more than he let on. I also never believed the line "It's too hot -- I'm going to the beach." I think it may be more like "I don't like what happened here and I need to GTF out now." I just don't see why he would leave like that just because it's hot.


This is a really good explanation, but it doesn't cover the scene of the crime. If we believed that Kurt fled to that area that night because of Carillo, then how do we explain his missing clothing? The staged beer cans, and sporadic nature of Kurt's car? His keys, and I.D. being strewn around the vehicle.

Even if Kurt was in a hurry to leave, why would he leave his shirt, shoes/socks, and belt buckle? I also don't think he drunk all of those beers himself. I also thought him parking his car in sand on a golf course to the point it had to be towed out was the culprit's doing.

Easy. They didn't find him, or knew where he was because they drove him there. It's possible more than one person was involved. Someone drove Kurt's car there, and another followed.

The abrasions only on his back, the missing belt buckle, as well as no shirt makes it seem like he was dressed quickly in a state of panic and was dropped there, or thrown off the cliff. Staged beer cans, and his I.D. being found on the passenger's side of the floor all point to foul play to me.

Kurt and his friend, Gabriel Carrillo, were the only ones in Carrillo's apartment that night. It's either Carrillo did something nefarious, or it was an accidental death. And knowing that Kurt's father knew he would be spending the night with Carrillo, I don't think it would be wise for him to murder him, knowing that that would make him the prime suspect.

Kurt and his friend, Gabriel Carrillo, were the only ones in Carrillo's apartment that night. It's either Carrillo did something nefarious, or it was an accidental death. And knowing that Kurt's father knew he would be spending the night with Carrillo, I don't think it would be wise for him to murder him, knowing that that would make him the prime suspect.

How do you know they were the only ones there? You can't make that assumption. And, Carillo could've easily called someone with a car to help him after the incident occurred. I never believed the whole "Why would I murder him? His dad knew he was here" line, you can't take a suspect at their word. It's like if Ted Bundy said "I didn't kill those women. My mother knows how much I love women" and everyone believed him based on that line.

Carillo is/was a suspect. Believing what he said, despite the crime scene, and Kurt's injuries, is extremely gullible. I'm not trying to be rude, but how many people who were charged with crimes said they didn't do it? Can't believe everyone.

EDIT:Think about the line you said: "And knowing that Kurt's father knew he would be spending the night with Carrillo, I don't think it would be wise for him to murder him, knowing that that would make him the prime suspect"

It wouldn't have been wise for Carillo to have murdered him, and reported it from his home where Kurt's body would have been, and then he said that line. But it would have been wise if Carillo dumped Kurt's body, car, and belongings over a cliff, and abandoned golf course in the middle of the night with no one around, and then said that line. With a staged scene away from his home, and Carillo's "why would I do it" plea, it's easy to fool someone.

you can't take a suspect at their word.

Was Carillo ever a suspect?

Was Carillo ever a suspect?

From what I read, yes. How could he not be? He was the last known person Kurt was seen with, and was staying at his house.

EDIT: I really hate to pull this card, but I wonder if Carillo was black, and appeared more menacing would people still think that Kurt committed suicide? He is TOO big of a suspect for people just to simply write him off.

Carillo is/was a suspect. Believing what he said, despite the crime scene, and Kurt's injuries, is extremely gullible. I'm not trying to be rude, but how many people who were charged with crimes said they didn't do it? Can't believe everyone.

Carrillo was never a suspect. Kurt's injuries were consistent with falling down a steep and rocky cliff. His body was found at the bottom of rocky cliffs near where his car was found. You need actual evidence, or even hints of evidence of foul play, and outside of the friend and Kurt's father who are wildly speculative in the segment, there is none.

It wouldn't have been wise for Carillo to have murdered him, and reported it from his home where Kurt's body would have been, and then he said that line. But it would have been wise if Carillo dumped Kurt's body, car, and belongings over a cliff, and abandoned golf course in the middle of the night with no one around, and then said that line. With a staged scene away from his home, and Carillo's "why would I do it" plea, it's easy to fool someone.

Outside of rank speculation, why would Carrillo go through all of that trouble? What would his motive be?

I really hate to pull this card, but I wonder if Carillo was black, and appeared more menacing would people still think that Kurt committed suicide?

:rolleyes:

I think the consensus is that Kurt's death was accidental, and not a suicide. And Carrillo could have been a 7'3" purple sasquatch, and I'd still think he had nothing to do with it.

:rolleyes:

I think the consensus is that Kurt's death was accidental, and not a suicide. And Carrillo could have been a 7'3" purple sasquatch, and I'd still think he had nothing to do with it.

Yeah right. I see a mix of accidental, and suicide. Roll your eyes all you want, but what I'm saying is true. If Carillo wasn't a dungeons & dragons-esque nerd, and looked different people would be more suspicious.

You really think the man who was last seen with Kurt, who gave a lousy "he was hot, so he left" excuse isn't suspicious? Nevermind, I forgot, you think he's innocent just because he said he didn't do it :lol: :lol: :lol:

And to prove my point, if Kurt's death was an accident, then what about the staged beer scene? His car being abandoned in sand on a golf course? Lacerations ONLY on his back? Missing belt buckle? SCA gear missing, but money in his glove compartment? One hell of an accident.

It sure was!

It sure was!

Enlighten me, please. I'm very curious as to why anyone thinks this was an accident, given the crime scene.

I think it was either an accident or murder, but I lean towards murder. Carillo seemed like a socio or psychopath to me. He really tried to downplay his whole cult thing and when they filmed that ceremony, he probably had a whole different group of people in there than he normally did.

I think it was either an accident or murder, but I lean towards murder. Carillo seemed like a socio or psychopath to me. He really tried to downplay his whole cult thing and when they filmed that ceremony, he probably had a whole different group of people in there than he normally did.

He was also a documented pedophile, and sex offender, who used that bogus cult as a way to molest teens. He's just not taken seriously because of his goofy, and awkward appearance. I guarantee if he looked more menacing and had a longer crime sheet people would start calling it a murder, and trying to connect the crime scene to Kurts murder.

He was also a documented pedophile, and sex offender, who used that bogus cult as a way to molest teens.

Source for this?

Source for this?

https://bigpapafae.wordpress.com/2014/04/09/the-ordeal/

"Gabriel was my teacher in the tradition, and had been decried as a sexual predator by some, and certainly had unconventional ethics around sex and sexuality;"

"I know that some have felt abused by Gabriel, and I cannot doubt the stories of others when they stand up to thoughtful compassion. I do think our communities need to have some serious discussions on the nature of power, agency, and consent."

There's more in there.

One of many that I've found that said Caradoc was notorious for sexually abusing younger students in Pagan circles. Hell, he let Kurt, a minor, stay alone at his house.

https://bigpapafae.wordpress.com/2014/04/09/the-ordeal/

One of many that I've found that said Caradoc was notorious for sexually abusing younger students in Pagan circles. Hell, he let Kurt, a minor, stay alone at his house.

That article literally says:

"I would argue that some of the allegations leveled against him over the years stem from homophobia and the placing of heterosexual cultural norms on the sexuality of queer men."

And a blog post is hardly what I would call documentation of someone being a sex offender.

That article literally says:

"I would argue that some of the allegations leveled against him over the years stem from homophobia and the placing of heterosexual cultural norms on the sexuality of queer men."

And a blog post is hardly what I would call documentation of someone being a sex offender.

Go back and read my edited post. Stop picking over the obvious to defend a pedophile.

I'd call multiple blogpost, a guy who let minors sleepover, and the last person to have seen Kurt alive, credible.

You're an aggressive poster, with little reason to be. This thread is 17 pages long yet you're asking posters older than you to rehash their arguments.

You're an aggressive poster, with little reason to be. This thread is 17 pages long yet you're asking posters older than you to rehash their arguments.

How am I aggressive? Because I'm going against popular opinion?

Yeah and? It's still an open discussion, they don't have to respond if they don't want to, I didn't force anyone to answer me. I said he was killed, I was asked to back up my claims and I did.

Just because I blew your logic out of the water, doesn't mean you can call me false things like "aggressive". You're upset because you can't argue my claims. You're not fooling anyone.