I searched but couldn't find any threads dedicated to this case, do I have the spelling wrong? I remember seeing it when it originally aired; back then I had a gut feeling that his wife did and yesterday, I still think the same thing.

Probably stating the obvious here but...damn, could his wife be more guilty?

Have there been any updates on this?

I also searched and found no threads on this case. I agree; his wife seems completely guilty of the crime. My guess is that she hired a hitman to take out her husband so she could collect on the $200,000 life insurance policy and go live with her lesbian lover. She is a bold faced liar--people who know her saw her with another man buying that gun (the same type of gun that was used to kill her husband), and she outright denied it. Plus her story about where her husband was and at what time didn't add up either, since people saw his car at times that conflicted with her story.

It's too bad they didn't take her to trial for his murder. If Scott Peterson can get convicted on all circumstantial evidence, why can't this lady?

I also searched and found no threads on this case. I agree; his wife seems completely guilty of the crime. My guess is that she hired a hitman to take out her husband so she could collect on the $200,000 life insurance policy and go live with her lesbian lover. She is a bold faced liar--people who know her saw her with another man buying that gun (the same type of gun that was used to kill her husband), and she outright denied it. Plus her story about where her husband was and at what time didn't add up either, since people saw his car at times that conflicted with her story.

It's too bad they didn't take her to trial for his murder. If Scott Peterson can get convicted on all circumstantial evidence, why can't this lady?

Maybe the circumstantial evidence in Mark's murder isn't enough to arrest his wife? Just a thought.

It's too bad they didn't take her to trial for his murder. If Scott Peterson can get convicted on all circumstantial evidence, why can't this lady?

I share in your thoughts. HOWEVER, the disappearance and murder of Laci and Connor Peterson was a story that got national coverage, even before Scott Peterson was implicated in the media. Given the explosive nature of the case (the murder of a pregnant woman, allegedly by her husband) I think it was close to impossible for the court to find an impartial jury to hear Scott Peterson's case. Hence, Scott Peterson was considered guilty even before he was tried for the crime. Don't get me wrong, though. I thought (and still think) that Scott Peterson was as guilty as hell. I admire Amber Frey for coming forward, for she provided the court with Scott's supposed M.O.

I know this doesn't have anything to do with UM, but I couldn't resist giving you my two cents worth on that comment. Sorry! :crazy:

My personal opinion is that Mark Groezinger's wife is responsible for his death. I do think she is a lesbian which in normal circumstances wouldn't have a bearing but in this circumstance it gave her a motive....to get rid of her husband so she could be with her "friend". Some witnesses with nothing to gain have put the wife with an unknown man together purchasing a gun and I believe in a liquor store. I believe she hired this man to kill her husband for the insurance money and so she could be with her friend. She has denied being seen with the man and the people who claimed to have seen her would have no reason to lie. If she was innocently at a store with a friend she wouldn't have any problem admitting to it. I think her and her friend planned that they would be dropped off early that night to give the person who killed Mark a chance to catch him alone. I have no idea why he was found in such an isolated area though. Anyway I know there's not enough evidence to arrest anyone obviously but those are my thoughts on the case.

My personal opinion is that Mark Groezinger's wife is responsible for his death. I do think she is a lesbian which in normal circumstances wouldn't have a bearing but in this circumstance it gave her a motive....to get rid of her husband so she could be with her "friend". Some witnesses with nothing to gain have put the wife with an unknown man together purchasing a gun and I believe in a liquor store. I believe she hired this man to kill her husband for the insurance money and so she could be with her friend. She has denied being seen with the man and the people who claimed to have seen her would have no reason to lie. If she was innocently at a store with a friend she wouldn't have any problem admitting to it. I think her and her friend planned that they would be dropped off early that night to give the person who killed Mark a chance to catch him alone. I have no idea why he was found in such an isolated area though. Anyway I know there's not enough evidence to arrest anyone obviously but those are my thoughts on the case.

I wrote my previous comment about Scott Peterson before i saw the UM segment about Mark. I totally agree with Crystaldawn on this one. The wife didn't seem credible, and I LOVED how it was hinted at that the "friend" moved in with the wife and how they were still living together and buying a house.

I have no idea why he was found in such an isolated area though.
My guess is that her ladyfriend was in on it too. After all, wasn't her ladyfriend her alibi?

Hello, Mark was my brother in law at the time of his death, he was my son's godfather. Although his murder has never been solved, yes, everything pointed to his wife. There was enough circumstantial evidence to arrest her, but nothing concrete. As far as I know, they are still living together in Colorado. Whoever did this sure did plan it well, because they were never caught and his family is still without any answers after all these years. There will never be any closure to this as long as his killer is walking free. The family has dealt with his death, but there are still questions that need to be answered.

Hello, Mark was my brother in law at the time of his death, he was my son's godfather. Although his murder has never been solved, yes, everything pointed to his wife. There was enough circumstantial evidence to arrest her, but nothing concrete. As far as I know, they are still living together in Colorado. Whoever did this sure did plan it well, because they were never caught and his family is still without any answers after all these years. There will never be any closure to this as long as his killer is walking free. The family has dealt with his death, but there are still questions that need to be answered.

You know, it never ceases to amaze me how many people who have somehow been personally involved in a UM case have found their way here. I'm sorry to hear that Mark's murder is still unsolved. Thanks for the insight though.

I just watched this and it is a very interesting case. I too believe that she is definitely guilty of the murder. She sat there answering the questions and just had guilt written all over her face. She didn't even seem to care about it.

-Ben

I believe that the wife hired a hitman to kill Mark so she can inherit her husbands life insurance to start a new life with her lesbian lover. The wife is 100% involved, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind. She may not have pulled the trigger, but she DEFINITELY knows who did it and DEFINITELY is involved.

If you search Google for "Judy Groezinger", one of the first hits will be for "Meet Lesbian Moms like Judy Groezinger!" I don't think I'll link that one here...

Anyway, apparently she is still a free woman, and running the dog-show circuit with her partner, a doctor.

If you search Google for "Judy Groezinger", one of the first hits will be for "Meet Lesbian Moms like Judy Groezinger!" I don't think I'll link that one here...

Anyway, apparently she is still a free woman, and running the dog-show circuit with her partner, a doctor.

Personally, I wouldn't mind meeting a lesbian mum like Portia De Rossi, or someone to that effect :happyface

the segment is on youtube if anyone wants to watch it

Personally, I wouldn't mind meeting a lesbian mum like Portia De Rossi, or someone to that effect :happyface If you look further down on the Google search you can find pictures of Roezinger and her partner. Portia De Rossi they ain't.

the segment is on youtube if anyone wants to watch it

Oooohh!! You shouldn't say that. YouTube is a 4 letter word around here.

Oooohh!! You shouldn't say that. YouTube is a 4 letter word around here.


oh sorry, didn't know

oh sorry, didn't know

All good. Doesnt bother me personally. It's just that it says in the rules that you can't post links to the youtube clips. So some people might consider that a form of advertising.

Anyways, back to the story...... I believe we were talking about lesbians, right? mmmmm :happyface

LOL! Can I watch?

She totally killed him for the insurance money and her lesbian lover made her do it. She should be arrested just for that hairstyle she has.

Well she could be bisexual. After all, she was married to Mark, so it's definitely possible. I'm curious to know what type of marriage Mark and Judy had. If Judy wasn't interested in him, I wonder if he picked up on that at all. I also wonder how long they had been married. If they only had been married a short time, that would definitely make me more suspcious of Judy, and I'm already pretty suspicious of her. We didn't get much information about the guy seen with Judy in the liquor store and pawn shop, or the lady Judy moved in with, so it's difficult to speculate on either of those two.

Yes, I would certainly be open to the possiblity that she is bisexual. However regardless if she is bisexual or straight I believe she is responsible for her husband's death. I mean seriously, who else would want the guy dead? Especially without a robbery? It almost makes you wonder though, if it was truly Judy would she really have this done without at least staging a robbery to take the attention off of her? A bizarre case nonethe less.

"Bisexuality is the ultimate definition of confusion."

- AVERMAN

"Bisexuality is the ultimate definition of confusion."

- AVERMAN

Well, not exactly. It just means a person is attracted to both sexes.

Well, not exactly. It just means a person is attracted to both sexes.

Hence the confusion.

LOL. Just when this thread started getting good, it died a quick death ;)

Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but I just re-watched this segment and searched for "Mark Groezinger" on these boards and read through this thread. I had forgotten that I posted about Judy a few years back claiming that I was sure she was guilty. When I watched it today, I wasn't so sure. Maybe she was, but other than a couple of discrepancies in her statements, there's not much evidence tying her to the murder. Interesting case though. It's too bad the killer still hasn't been caught.

What?

I'm sick of the mentality that if you like something, you can't like its alternative. If you like Coke, you can't like Pepsi, and vice versa. If you like Ford, you can't like Chevy, and vice versa. I don't happen to be bisexual, but who says a person can't like both?

I second that emotion, wiseguy182. Know what I say to all that? Bisexuality is just a clinical term for 'people person'. :p

It looks as if Mark's mother passed away last year:

http://www.funeralplan.com/lawjones/obits?id=90585

So sad about Mark Groezinger's mother passing away. It seems his father passed only a few months after Mark's death. It is my opinion that Judy Groezinger is in some way responsible for Mark's death. In fact, I am actually surprised she wasnt indicted. This seems to be another example of the Jefferson County, Colorado District Attorney's Office dropping the ball. David Chase's case is another big one I can think of them doing this on. Judy's lack of emotion, the life insurance policy, her girlfriend moving in the day after Mark's death and the biggest one, the clincher in my view, she was the one that purchased the gun that turned out to be the murder weapon. Also, Mark was pumped so full of holes he probably looked like a piece of swiss cheese (sorry if I seem insensitive, that was not my intent). He was just shot a ridiculous amount of times, it was a huge overkill. But why?

My theory is that Judy wanted to throw off the cops by having whoever she hired to do the killing shoot Mark a bunch of times to make it look gang related or something. Judy was also caught in several lies, she wasnt exactly forthcoming about the gun that she purchased just 3 days before Mark's death that just by coincidence was used to kill him. She also lied about Mark allegedly going to a liquor store when this turned out not to be true. Judy wasnt even discreet about what her true motive was, she moved her girlfriend in the day after her husband's death! I dont know, I am normally pro defense but Judy has "guilty" written all over her forehead in my opinion. I actually think they could make a case on Judy. I have seen people get convicted off much less than what they have on Judy.

Note that Judy is still included in the "family" in this obituary. If she was a prime suspect, wouldn't someone take her out of the obituary (as if she was never part of the family)?

There's no concrete evidence she had anything to do with it, but the fact that she moved in her lesbo lover the next day indicates she wasn't exactly overcome with grief. That's my take on it.

I have seen cases with less evidence where people were arrested on circumstantial evidence. It happens all the time on TruTV and the ID channel.

How on earth have they let so many years go by without arresting her?

thinking back, it is a little suspicious that she adamantly denied being in a relationship with her "friend" in the Unsolved episode (and said "whenever you have a friend like that people are going to talk"), but now fully admits to being "from the isle of Lesbos" so to speak. Interesting.

Anytime my wife asks why I like UM so much, I reply "On what other real show can you watch a story about a woman having her husband knocked off so she can move in with her lesbian lover?":lol:

I think Judy Groesinger is guilty through and through and I think her motive is obvious. I think the amount of bullets in Mark was the result of her and her lover each emptying a clip into him. Sort of like a symbolic cementing of their relationship.

I think its telling that the only time she showed ANY emotion at all during her interview on UM is when she smirked about how the insurance company ended up settling the claim on Mark's life.

I totally agree with the assertion that people have been convicted on weaker evidence. I mean, wasn't her thumb print on one of the beer bottles found at the crime scene? She said they got a bottle of hard stuff on the night Mark was murdered and from a different store. Right there she's proven a liar in her story by the receipt found in the car and that she was with Mark AFTER they bought the beer.

Something significant was left out by the UM producers or the investigative authorities seriously screwed this one up somewhere along the line.
I'd be interested in seeing her girlfriend and seeing how mannish she looks because she could very well be the "biker-looking guy" seen with Judy at the pawn shop and the liquor store.

Yes, in my opinion this case is pretty obvious. Judy Groezinger is somehow involved in my opinion. If she wasnt the one that actually fired the bullets into Mark than she was behind it somehow. She was the one that bought the murder weapon. To be honest, it is probably a case that has been all but forgotten about in the Denver area because over 25 years has passed now since Mark was murdered. The authorities would have to track down all the witnesses again.

I do think the cops think Judy did it but she was never charged because they were afraid she would get acquitted and that if new evidence surfaced in the future they wouldnt be able to charge her. However I think so much time has passed now they should charge her. If she gets acquitted, oh well. At least they could say they tried. But this killing was so personal, 10 bullets fired into Mark. Yet nothing was taken.

However Judy is covered because she has an alabi in her girlfriend. Even though the girlfriend isnt credible, her story still holds water because there is no one to prove the alabi of Judy and the girlfriend being alone at the house watching TV isnt true.

But yes Judy was caught in a number of lies. She lied about having purchased the murder weapon initially and then admitted she did buy it but claimed it was for a friend of Mark's that has never been identified. She was caught in a lie about the liquor and who bought what liquor and when. I do think Corky's theory is interesting that the "biker looking guy" could have been Judy's girlfriend that looked manly and possibly wore a whig or was disguised. It is possible. This was 1984 when this happened so obviously people wouldnt be as aware of this kind of stuff as they would be now.

I do think Corky's theory is interesting that the "biker looking guy" could have been Judy's girlfriend that looked manly and possibly wore a whig or was disguised. It is possible. This was 1984 when this happened so obviously people wouldnt be as aware of this kind of stuff as they would be now.


LOL. kadrmas15, I know you're young but just how old are you? I'm not being mean or making fun of you but, seriously I'm not, but that sounds like a very naive and young-ish thing to say.

From re-watching the segment again, I think this is probably what happened:
Judy and her lover formulated the plan and the lover (or Judy) had a biker guy friend she knew that would meet them up at the point where Mark was found. He was the guy seen with Judy at the pawn shop and the liquor store. I'm thinking the lover was probably the one that facilitated it and pulled the trigger. She might be the butch one of the two and had more rage towards Mark, since Judy seemed very passive in the interview. Although she could have been stoned too, she sure looked it. But either way, Judy and the lover were complicit as well as the unidentified biker guy seen with Judy.

I bet if the cops used the evidence (both circumstancial and physical) they have, put the screws to Judy and her lover, and pressure them into polygraphs, one might crack. The case isn't gonna linger around and solve itself, unless that biker tells the wrong person. It said in the segment that Judy took a voluntary polygraph and passed it, does anyone know if drugs can help you cheat a polygraph?

My personal opinion is that Mark Groezinger's wife is responsible for his death. I do think she is a lesbian which in normal circumstances wouldn't have a bearing but in this circumstance it gave her a motive....to get rid of her husband so she could be with her "friend". Some witnesses with nothing to gain have put the wife with an unknown man together purchasing a gun and I believe in a liquor store. I believe she hired this man to kill her husband for the insurance money and so she could be with her friend. She has denied being seen with the man and the people who claimed to have seen her would have no reason to lie. If she was innocently at a store with a friend she wouldn't have any problem admitting to it. I think her and her friend planned that they would be dropped off early that night to give the person who killed Mark a chance to catch him alone. I have no idea why he was found in such an isolated area though. Anyway I know there's not enough evidence to arrest anyone obviously but those are my thoughts on the case.

I'm with you, CD. Why would two people with NO reason to lie make up stuff about her? I think she wanted to be with her "friend" and instead of just getting a divorce like most civilized people, got greedy and killed instead. I laughed at the subtle hints about how the "friend" moved in right after the murder and how they are still living together. You know they were shacking up!

Judy Groezinger if full of poop. She is a crappy liar and by the good grace of the man upstairs she gets away with murder, she's pay in another time. I have no beef w/ the fact she likes women, but she needs to quit playing the victimized wife. No good at it.

I was a roommate of the "friend" at the time of the murder, and I did not know for the longest time she was a lesbian. She was in no way "Butch" and very pretty and a great athleth.

Anytime my wife asks why I like UM so much, I reply "On what other real show can you watch a story about a woman having her husband knocked off so she can move in with her lesbian lover?":lol:

They'd never get away with it on a fictional show. At least, 10-15 years ago there were strict rules about not portraying gays and lesbians as jealous or violent. I don't know if those rules have gone by the way like so many others.

LOL. kadrmas15, I know you're young but just how old are you? I'm not being mean or making fun of you but, seriously I'm not, but that sounds like a very naive and young-ish thing to say.

It depends on the place as well as the time. Look at the Tina Brandon/Brandon Tina case depicted in the movie Boys Don't Cry, where a woman posed as a man in rural Nebraska, where they had no concept of such things, and fooled many. In a big city, she'd probably have been spotted right away. Since the movie came out, more people in rural areas might be more onto these things.

They'd never get away with it on a fictional show. At least, 10-15 years ago there were strict rules about not portraying gays and lesbians as jealous or violent. I don't know if those rules have gone by the way like so many others.


When this case first aired, I was about 10 so I never made the lesbian connection. Now at 28, it's quite clear. My wife doesn't like UM that much but she puts up with it.

My opinion on the whole biker guy is that he was a friend exclusively to Judy's lesbian lover. The lady wanted Mark out of the way and made a proposal to Judy. The lover then introduced the Judy to the bIker guy who was willing to murder at a cheap price (case of beer or so, which would explain Judy's prints being on one of the bottles). Judy knew mark liked to visit the shrine and after he left, alerted the biker guy to be aware of Mark leaving. Mark was followed to the shrine. The biker guy may have approached mark acting like he wa slost or something (asking for directions while on his motorcycle) and then pulled the gun on Mark. The biker guy was a novice hitman and wanted to make sure mark was dead (hence the insane number of bullets). This got Judy and the friend off the hook as they could not be placed at the scene

was her friends name Lori
cause she lives in the same house in Colorado according to a Google search

I have a bit of a different take on this case. Mark's brother didn't think that Judy could be responsible for the killing, so the rest of his family might not think she did it either. I think the "friend" was more involved than Judy, and Judy is covering for her.

Was there ever confirmation they were at the restaurant that night? If they were there at 6:30, and Mark's car was up at the shrine before 8:00, was there enough time to get there and kill Mark? Was there ever reports of anyone HEARING the shots? There were a lot fired...if anyone was near the area they would have heard them.

Most of the evidence points to Judy, but there are a couple things that add a little doubt.

I don't believe Judy killed her husband because there is only suspicion, not strong evidence against her. I believe she is connected to the murder and knows something about it she isn't telling police out of fear, though it won't prove her guilt. Although she purchased a gun of the same caliber just days before her husband was murdered, there is no proof that the gun she bought was the murder weapon. I am surprised the detectives did not ask her for the weapon after she acknowledged obtaining the gun from a pawn shop. This is just a thought, but if the pawn shop employee said there was a man with her in the pawn shop, maybe they were not traveling together, they just happened to be in the shop at the same time and asked his opinion on the gun she asked to look at. As for her fingerprints on the pack of beer in Mark's car, maybe Mark bought it while with Judy and she handled it while traveling with Mark and both of them forgot it was there, depending on how long before the murder Mark purchased it. I have also seen on the Jefferson County Sheriff's Office cold case files page on their website that when Mark was murdered, jewelry and his keys were missing from his car, so maybe robbery was a motive for his death.

The only evidence the police really have to connect Judy to her husband's murder is the gun she purchased just three days before Mark was murdered. I don't think there is a way she could have had the gun at the time of the murder to use it because I am sure the pawn shop would do a background check on her which would have taken many days. If the police think she did it, they would have asked her for the gun she bought, run ballistics testing; comparing bullets fired from her gun and bullets recovered from Mark's body at autopsy. If they were a match, I would be convinced that Judy is the murderer. If not, then Judy is exonerated as a suspect.

I've always thought Judy has something to do with the murder. I think the unknown man she was seen with in the store could have committed the murder at Judy's request. I'm sure he was paid for it. This would clear the way for Judy to move in with her "friend" and have Mark out of the picture.

The only evidence the police really have to connect Judy to her husband's murder is the gun she purchased just three days before Mark was murdered. I don't think there is a way she could have had the gun at the time of the murder to use it because I am sure the pawn shop would do a background check on her which would have taken many days


1. What possible reason could Judy have to purchase a gun with another man accompanying her? Who is the guy to begin with?
2. Why would she feel the need to lie about it or not identify the person or the fact that she was purchasing a gun?
3. why purchase the gun now? What changed in her sitaution to warrant having the gun?
4. Pawn shops are notorious for keeping lax records and doing business under the table in regards to firearms. They are also notorious for having stolen merchandise, such as stolen handguns.
5. There really shouldn't be any evidence on Judy to begin with since it's most likely she used a proxy to kill Mark. All the pyshical evidence would point to the proxy, not Judy. The only way to convict Judy is to prove conspiracy to murder by linking her to the proxy.
6.Judy is a suspect because she has shown suspicious actions and a willingness to lie about those actions.
7. who else would murder Mark? It was not a robbery? There has been no one else like a lover or ex-girlfriend that would connect to Mark. It's not the act of a serial killer. I guess road rage would be the only other possibility

Are Judy Groezinger and Paul Pollis really enguaged?

Are Judy Groezinger and Paul Pollis really enguaged?

LOL I don't think old Judy likes men "in that way", but I doubt Paul would turn her down.

I was gonna say, isn't Judy Groezinger the one who got a girlfriend aftershe killed Mark *cough* ahhh I mean, Mark was killed?

I was gonna say, isn't Judy Groezinger the one who got a girlfriend aftershe killed Mark *cough* ahhh I mean, Mark was killed?

Heck, she didn't get the girlfriend AFTER she killed her husband, I think the girlfriend had been around a long time and was part of the motive for killing him.

Judy just moved the girlfriend into her house, like the day after her husband died, or the day after the funeral or something. But I think it was the day after he died. It was that quick.

How suspicious is it that the day after your spouse is murdered, your lover moves in with you. And then, on UM, the only time Judy smiled, and showed her real personality, and was even beginning to become giddy, imo, was when she talked about getting her guilty hands on that inheritance.

They need to hurry up and convict her and put her guilty lesbian butt in solitary in a men's prison (so she can't have any fun with the ladies in s female correctional facility) while she does her time behind bars. And then let all the guys tease her and call her by super feminine names like Tiffany, or Bambi, and give her girly chores like sewing and cooking. lol

First of all, the facts are:
1. Judy moved in with her parents after Mark was murdered, because whoever did it, had the house keys. And I'm sure she was in shock. Then she got a house with her sister and sister's husband. So, whoever decided she moved in with a woman the next day, does not know what they are talking about.
2. The insurance policy was in effect for years. They had a young child and Mark wanted to be sure they were protected. Mark had just changed companies. The insurance co. wouldn't have paid anything if they had suspicions and I'm sure they checked it out thoroughly. If she wanted the insurance money, she could have done something when he had the previous insurance.
3. So, she bought a gun. They both shot guns for years.
4. She wasn't with anyone when she bought the gun. The pawn shop guy probably didn't remember a week later and deals with buying and selling guns all the time. Why would she need someone with her when she knows about guns?
5. She had plenty of ways to get a gun if she wanted to without leaving tracks.
6. There was a serial killer in the area who had killed someone the week before which police admited later. serial killer had killed someone in the area the week before.
7. Finger prints on the beer can? Get real. There were probably finger prints all over the car since she drove it too. They drank beer and sometimes she bought it and sometimes he bought it.
8. Sensationalism seems to be what we all crave but facts are facts...

You know what ZEER, I don't see any point in you sending a private message to me that contains the exact same information, word for word, that you wrote in post #53.

Obviously, I am capable of reading. PMing me the same thing over and over again doesn't accomplish anything except to prove that you are willing to harass the members here with what is essentially, nothing more than spam.

I don't appreciate you filling up my PM inbox with copies of a post that you have already placed on the public forum. Don't ever PM me again.

If you have a problem with the details as they were presented on UM, I suggest you complain to Cosgrove Muerer.

We here are only message board members who are fans of the show and rely on their information to discuss the cases. There was a person on this board whose boyfriend was wrongly implicated as a suspect in a UM case. She contacted the police who had investigated the murder, and then contacted Cosgrove Muerer with the proof from the police that her boyfriend had no connection to the crime, whatsoever.

That is the proper course of action you should be taking to have the erroneous information corrected, rather than harassing anonymous message board members out in cyberspace.

You also sent me a IM as well. Contact the authorities if you have information beyond public info.

There is no need to send a private message to everyone.

6. There was a serial killer in the area who had killed someone the week before which police admited later. serial killer had killed someone in the area the week before.

Serial killer is the default theory for nearly every murder case that isn't solved.

Essential you could make an argument that every Unsolved Mystery murder is the act of a serial killer. Heck maybe Danny Williams case is a suicide.

But statistics prove otherwise. They prove that a majority of murders are done by people that know the victim. I believe Mark Groezinger's murder is one of those cases.

Adult Males are not the usual target of serial killers.

I didn't get a PM. I feel so left out.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I didn't get a PM. I feel so left out.

More than willing to forward it to you if you want.:p

Awww man!! I thought I was the only one whackadoo here sent a pm to. I was really jazzed to have a pee em-ument with someone really really ready to stand up for Judy Groezinger, yet really really ignorant of where we ALL got our information on who the hell Judy Groezinger even is. Seriously, raise your hand right now:wave: if you would have ever known who she was, or who she murdered in cold blood, had UM not ever profiled the segment.

See zeer! See! I didn’t see anyone raise their hand.

Seriously though, zeer. I don't think you're a whackadoo. :crazy:


And if you want to discuss this, we can. :cuckoo


And really, pming everyone the same stuff you posted on the boards was A GREAT way of going about things...I really mean it. :rolleyes:

But you gotta at least be familiar with the source material. For the love of Bob Stack!

Zeer's gotten me all excited, now.

Maybe the Circleville Wirter will PM me next with a full confession.:D

Zeer's gotten me all excited, now.

Maybe the Circleville Wirter will PM me next with a full confession.:D

I swear zeer's pm was titled "All you el-sickos will pay"

I swear zeer's pm was titled "All you el-sickos will pay"

or "Judith Himes is still alive, and she lives in Omaha!" :lol:

or "Judith Himes is still alive, and she lives in Omaha!" :lol:

I have inside information that Judith Himes is UN-dead and is hiding in Zeer's closet, waiting for it to get dark...

I've been getting them as well. Zeer, if I want to read your posts, I can read them on the board just fine.

Ok ok everyone-- I realize I made a mistake in sending my post to individuals as well as to this main "discussion" group, which has rightly so become a Zeer bashing. It was my first time joining and posting. Can you all forgive my stupidious lack of reading instructions?? I promise to repent with 20 lashes of a wet noodle, crawling around the house on my knees, and praying to my ant farm??? Any other suggestions you have will be considered but please have mercy on my soul, just this once?!?

Oh, I like the praying to your ant farm. That's a good one. Can you ask them for world peace, please? kthx ;)

Zeer isn't the only newbie filling the PM inboxes. I've gotten another one from somebody asking me if I have info on some case, but of course, I don't. I just referred them back to the board and explained how to use the search feature.

Maybe we need an Attn: Noobs sticky with some basic navigational instructions?

I think Zeer should spend a night in the haunted bunkbeds as penance.

Zeer should have to sit in the chair of death once and if he passes he can post.

I've always thought Judy has something to do with the murder. I think the unknown man she was seen with in the store could have committed the murder at Judy's request. I'm sure he was paid for it. This would clear the way for Judy to move in with her "friend" and have Mark out of the picture.

I agree, CD. Judy didn't pull the trigger, but I think she planned so she could have her "friend" move in. I wonder if they are still together?

PS: It's good to be back. Been busy.

Oh, I like the praying to your ant farm. That's a good one. Can you ask them for world peace, please? kthx ;)

TLS, thank you for your understanding. I'll let you in on a secret-- my ants have assured me that world peace is just around the corner... I am checking all the corners now and will keep you abreast of any change in the situation at hand.

TLS, thank you for your understanding. I'll let you in on a secret-- my ants have assured me that world peace is just around the corner... I am checking all the corners now and will keep you abreast of any change in the situation at hand.

Okie dokie. :) I'll be waiting for your next "corner report"! lol

I agree, CD. Judy didn't pull the trigger, but I think she planned so she could have her "friend" move in. I wonder if they are still together?

PS: It's good to be back. Been busy.

Yup! They certainly are still living together. They also appear to be open to their lesbian relationship. Do a google search for Judy Groezinger and you'll find her and her companion.

I think if you look through the forums you'll find more info about her.

So much for "good friends", huh?!:rolleyes:

Originally Posted by zeer
TLS, thank you for your understanding. I'll let you in on a secret-- my ants have assured me that world peace is just around the corner...

I hope not. That would mean the end of any more true crime stories. :(

TLS, thank you for your understanding. I'll let you in on a secret-- my ants have assured me that world peace is just around the corner... I am checking all the corners now and will keep you abreast of any change in the situation at hand.

Oh I hope now. The world would be really boring otherwise.

Awww, my fellow UM fans have a prejudice against whirled peas. :(

Quote from Naked Gun:

Jane: "The world is such violent place."
Frank Drebbeth: "If it wasn't I'd be out of a job."

:D

One problem I've always had with this segment is that Mark's death has been described as a "crime of passion". It is believed whomever killed Mark certainly had a great deal of animosity towards him since his death was pretty much the definition of an "overkill".

Now if Judy Groezinger or whomever hired someone to kill Mark than why was the crime committed in such a frenzied fashion?

There was also a ton of evidence left behind at the scene which leads me to believe whomever killed Mark had no idea what they were doing. First off why fire off that much ammo when you could've easily gotten the job done in a much tidier manner. Why would you risk firing off gunshot after gunshot if you were trying to be stealth? Also why leave all the shells in and around the car not to mention other physical evidence such as the beer in the back seat (assuming Judy is somehow implicated in all this)

Its just very very weird and smacks of someone having no idea what they were doing...

One problem I've always had with this segment is that Mark's death has been described as a "crime of passion". It is believed whomever killed Mark certainly had a great deal of animosity towards him since his death was pretty much the definition of an "overkill".

Now if Judy Groezinger or whomever hired someone to kill Mark than why was the crime committed in such a frenzied fashion?

There was also a ton of evidence left behind at the scene which leads me to believe whomever killed Mark had no idea what they were doing. First off why fire off that much ammo when you could've easily gotten the job done in a much tidier manner. Why would you risk firing off gunshot after gunshot if you were trying to be stealth? Also why leave all the shells in and around the car not to mention other physical evidence such as the beer in the back seat (assuming Judy is somehow implicated in all this)

Its just very very weird and smacks of someone having no idea what they were doing...

1. The guy Judy hired was probably not a professional hitman. For all we know he may have been some local barfly she found that would do the hit on the cheap. Judy may have instructed him to shoot him in the overkill style, for whatever reason. Or this guy was so insecure of his skils, he decided to shot him as many times as possible to esure his death.

2. Judy may have decided against using the guy and did it herslf or had her "female friend" committ the act.

a long time ago I exchanged some messages with Mark Groezinger's brother Ken (the one you could see in the segment), but it would be rude to copy&paste them here without his consent. But if you need any information, please ask him yourself - check out nickname 'kgroezinger' on YT. Maybe this time he'll join this discussion on SitcomsOnline.

When this case first aired, I was about 10 so I never made the lesbian connection. Now at 28, it's quite clear. My wife doesn't like UM that much but she puts up with it.

My opinion on the whole biker guy is that he was a friend exclusively to Judy's lesbian lover. The lady wanted Mark out of the way and made a proposal to Judy. The lover then introduced the Judy to the bIker guy who was willing to murder at a cheap price (case of beer or so, which would explain Judy's prints being on one of the bottles). Judy knew mark liked to visit the shrine and after he left, alerted the biker guy to be aware of Mark leaving. Mark was followed to the shrine. The biker guy may have approached mark acting like he wa slost or something (asking for directions while on his motorcycle) and then pulled the gun on Mark. The biker guy was a novice hitman and wanted to make sure mark was dead (hence the insane number of bullets). This got Judy and the friend off the hook as they could not be placed at the scene


Mark was shot 13 times from inside of the car, the glass was blown out onto the street. Mark probably knew who ever was in the car with him.

I love this segment and never get tired of watching it. I had it on tape for years (from when it first aired on NBC). I have always thought (I was 10 or so when it first aired and believed this even then) that the so-called hitman wa snot a professional and that is why he went nuts, shooting Mark an excessive number of times. The biker guy was probably an acquaintance of the lesbian friend and was a wannabe 1%er (or shot Mark as part of an initiation to join a motorcycle gang. This is actually a common way for somebody to earn membership but it is generally against a member of a rival gang. Mark had no such affiliations).

Here is and update on Judy's current life. After Marks death she is without a doubt a lesbian. I know this because my mom is a lesbian and Judy is her girlfriend. She's living near Parker, Colorado and lives with a roommate. She has my mom completely convinced that she didn't do it, but after seeing the Unsolved mysteries episode I'm definitely skeptical of the whole situation. She seems so cold hearted in the interviews, she bought that gun etc. She doesn't seem like a violent person and is generally pretty quiet when she's around. You definitely have to watch out for the quiet ones. My mom and her have frequent problems with Judy's excessive drinking and vile attitude when she gets drunk.

Here is and update on Judy's current life. After Marks death she is without a doubt a lesbian. I know this because my mom is a lesbian and Judy is her girlfriend. She's living near Parker, Colorado and lives with a roommate. She has my mom completely convinced that she didn't do it, but after seeing the Unsolved mysteries episode I'm definitely skeptical of the whole situation. She seems so cold hearted in the interviews, she bought that gun etc. She doesn't seem like a violent person and is generally pretty quiet when she's around. You definitely have to watch out for the quiet ones. My mom and her have frequent problems with Judy's excessive drinking and vile attitude when she gets drunk.

Very interesting, I would say 99% of people on here think she is guilty and has gotten away with murder.

Here is and update on Judy's current life. After Marks death she is without a doubt a lesbian. I know this because my mom is a lesbian and Judy is her girlfriend. She's living near Parker, Colorado and lives with a roommate. She has my mom completely convinced that she didn't do it, but after seeing the Unsolved mysteries episode I'm definitely skeptical of the whole situation. She seems so cold hearted in the interviews, she bought that gun etc. She doesn't seem like a violent person and is generally pretty quiet when she's around. You definitely have to watch out for the quiet ones. My mom and her have frequent problems with Judy's excessive drinking and vile attitude when she gets drunk.

Thanks for posting! So the "friend" that Judy lived with right after Mark's murder is she still around? Just curious.

If this "friend" is separated from Judy Groezinger, maybe she's ready to talk about Mark's death.

Any takers on trying to find her and maybe contact her?

If this "friend" is separated from Judy Groezinger, maybe she's ready to talk about Mark's death.

Any takers on trying to find her and maybe contact her?

What about the police or investigators? ;)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mastermind
If this "friend" is separated from Judy Groezinger, maybe she's ready to talk about Mark's death.

Any takers on trying to find her and maybe contact her?

What about the police or investigators?

1. They may be too involved with other cases to bother speaking to her again.
2. People usually tend to be less inclined to speak to police. They tend to open up more to none-law enforcement.
3. the best person to speak to her might be Mark's brother if he's still around.

1. They may be too involved with other cases to bother speaking to her again.
2. People usually tend to be less inclined to speak to police. They tend to open up more to none-law enforcement.
3. the best person to speak to her might be Mark's brother if he's still around.


Kenneth Groezinger

I am waiting for this one too, soon or later we will have it (I hope soon). We can learn from each other and exchange the experience for setting up a personal web home server.

huh? :confused:

How interesting would it be if Judy herself registered on this board and came to discuss the case. Would seriously doubt it though. As miranda states "you have the right to remain silent" which is probably the smartest thing for her to do.

My mom and her have frequent problems with Judy's excessive drinking and vile attitude when she gets drunk.

Would be interesting if she got drunk and finally revealed everything.

How interesting would it be if Judy herself registered on this board and came to discuss the case. Would seriously doubt it though. As miranda states "you have the right to remain silent" which is probably the smartest thing for her to do.

Quote:
My mom and her have frequent problems with Judy's excessive drinking and vile attitude when she gets drunk.

Would be interesting if she got drunk and finally revealed everything.

There have already has been a UM suspect on this board, already. It wouldn;t be that far-fectched if she come on.

I don't recall if I mentioned thi s in a previous post or not. I think the missing car keys were a sign that Mark was dead. Generally hitmen will provide some proof that the murder is complete (a wedding ring, the intentional alarm in the Tovrea case, a pair of eye glasses, etc).

is it just me or does judy have those predator souless looking eyes?

is it just me or does judy have those predator souless looking eyes?
Is it just me, or is anyone else reminded of Aileen Wuornos (the lesbian serial killer) when watching her? To me, there are definitely some similarities there..

In my opinion she is guilty one way or the other of the murder. I'd say that either she herself did it or she hired a some one else (biker looking guy) to do it.

I'd have to agree with others on this thread that the evidence is circumstantial, but still fairly strong circumstantial. There is motive in the life insurance and wanting to move on to her new love, there is the means, purchasing of the same calibre gun and same calibre ammunition as the murder weapon and there is also the fact that certain things did not add up with her story and that several independent witnesses with nothing to gain contradicted certain parts of her version of events. It's funny that the only person that seems to back up her version of events is her new rumored lover.

I just rewatched this segment over the weekend and I am shocked that Judy Groezinger has not been indicted. She purchased the murder weapon 3 days before Mark was murdered, moved her girlfriend in a day or so afterward, lied to the police quite a few times, etc.. I have seen people convicted to life in prison on far less. Yes, this case would be circumstantial but my gosh, she purchased the murder weapon. Does anyone know if they recovered the weapon? If not, that's a huge red flag. If so, where did they find it at and what is Judy's answer to it being found there since she purchased it.

Also, I'm not sure if this was mentioned or not, but this case has the looks of a contract killing. Mark's keys were gone and generally a hitman will take something from the victim to whoever paid him for proof that the deal is done. Anyway, I'm just shocked that she hasn't been charged with something. Manslaughter, conspiracy to commit murder, something...

Mark's keys were gone and generally a hitman will take something from the victim to whoever paid him for proof that the deal is done.

Or Judy might have needed those keys to get at a possession of his.

Or Judy might have needed those keys to get at a possession of his.

So she went to the murder scene before he was found, tampered with the scene and took his keys just to get a possession of his?

I'm not sure if Judy and her "friend" are still together, but her friends name (at least I'm almost certain it's her) is Lori J. Olaf. You can google more info on her, but I can't find anything related to Judy (whom I think is guilty as hell).

On a side note on Mark's death: whoever killed Mark was said to have been sitting or near the passenger side door when he was killed. Since he was found in such a remote location, I doubt someone would have just walked up to his passenger side window and shot him. I think whoever killed him was in the car with him as they were shooting him. And there's only one person (to my knowledge based off of what was shown on UM) who would have been able to have gotten that close to Mark, with a reason to kill him: Judy Groezinger.

On a side note on Mark's death: whoever killed Mark was said to have been sitting or near the passenger side door when he was killed. Since he was found in such a remote location, I doubt someone would have just walked up to his passenger side window and shot him. I think whoever killed him was in the car with him as they were shooting him. And there's only one person (to my knowledge based off of what was shown on UM) who would have been able to have gotten that close to Mark, with a reason to kill him: Judy Groezinger.

Excellent point. I agree. I am just shocked that she hasn't been charged. Sheesh the circumstantial evidence is this case is overwhelming.

Oh, and this may be Lori Olaf.... http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100002099502950

Excellent point. I agree. I am just shocked that she hasn't been charged. Sheesh the circumstantial evidence is this case is overwhelming.

Oh, and this may be Lori Olaf.... http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100002099502950

I'm going to put Judy Groezinger in a file here and move her off to the side. We've all (myself included) have tried to establish the potential involvement of Judy Groezinger in the death of her husband and to answer Hambone's question there probably isn't enough evidence either way at this point to build an airtight case against her at this point.

I want to focus in on where Mark Groezinger was found. To me the fact that he was found on Lookout Mountain near a religious shrine is intriguing. What I'd be interested to know is if the area where Groezinger was found is a popular place for people to park and meditate or whatnot. It is very possible that someone may have been stalking out the location for a potential victim and Mark was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time.

To paint the picture a bit more vividly there is actually a "religious shrine" around ten miles away from my home. It's not affiliated with any organized religion but there is a monument of sorts erected on around twenty five acres of land and people go there and light candles and leave prayer cards or whatnot. There is also gift shop located on the premises which is only operational on weekends where you can buy things like books on meditation, world music, scented oils and things of that nature.

The point is the area surrounding the shrine is extremely deserted and I would say during the week and especially at night you could go up there and literally feel like you were the only person on earth. If this description also fits the area where Groezinger was found then it's possible that a site like this would provide a prime location for a killer to both find an execute a victim.

To me Mark Groezinger's murder was an execution. Whether it was a crime of passion done for the motives the detective describes in the segment or a random act of violence whomever murdered Mark wanted their killing to be extremely graphic or dramatic in nature judging from the amount of ammunition used and even the amount of ammunition left behind at the scene the killing to me has all the earmarks of a frenzied attack. For me the crime scene offers up the possibility that the person who killed Mark may have had nothing to do with Judy Groezinger whatsoever and instead was a very sick, disturbed predator looking to stage a very graphic execution in an isolated area on a total stranger.

Here's something a little messed-up. I found Mark Groezinger's grave and he is buried alongside his parents, sharing the same tombstone as them (sadly, Mark's father died only a few months after him). What's crazy is that Judy also has a plot reserved there and has her name inscribed on the tombstone as well!
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=18416713

It's pretty strange that the family would leave Judy's name on the headstone if they believe she was responsible for Mark's death. However, as guilty as we all think she is, Mark's brother seemed to indicate that he didn't think she was capable of murder during his UM interview, so maybe the Groezinger family has always believed she's innocent!

We've all (myself included) have tried to establish the potential involvement of Judy Groezinger in the death of her husband and to answer Hambone's question there probably isn't enough evidence either way at this point to build an airtight case against her at this point.

There's more than enough circumstantial evidence that shows Judy was involved in his murder somehow. Several different witnesses, one of whom knew both Judy and Mark, all placed her with a strange "biker" looking man. She denies ever being with this man, and makes it a point to say when she went to the Pawn shop she was alone. These people have no reason to lie, nor can they be mistaken because the liquor store worker also corraborated the fact that she was with this man. She also lied on camera about the fact that her and her "friend" were just friends. Her fingerprints were found on a recently purchased beer bottle in the murder scene. Had this been ANYONE other than Judy, they'd instantly be the #1 suspect. Just because Judy is his wife (you can make the argument that of course her fingerprints would be in the car since she was married to him), she should not get a free pass on the fingerprint found at the scene of the murder. Not to mention that she just so happened to purchase the same type of gun used to kill him three days before his murder. Coincidence? No way.

I want to focus in on where Mark Groezinger was found. To me the fact that he was found on Lookout Mountain near a religious shrine is intriguing. What I'd be interested to know is if the area where Groezinger was found is a popular place for people to park and meditate or whatnot. It is very possible that someone may have been stalking out the location for a potential victim and Mark was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time.

UM made it very clear that this area was very remote. Despite being the ideal location for a serial killer, they would be very stupid to sit by and just hope that a potential victim happened by, who also just so happened to pull over on the side of the road and park long enough for them to be murdered.

The point is the area surrounding the shrine is extremely deserted and I would say during the week and especially at night you could go up there and literally feel like you were the only person on earth. If this description also fits the area where Groezinger was found then it's possible that a site like this would provide a prime location for a killer to both find an execute a victim.

But according to Judy and her "friend", Mark dropped them off intending to drink beer and play pool for the rest of the night. Not once did Judy, or anyone that knew Mark for that matter, ever mention that Mark frequented this area. In fact, the UM segment made it seem like it was odd for Mark to have been up there at all.

To me Mark Groezinger's murder was an execution. Whether it was a crime of passion done for the motives the detective describes in the segment or a random act of violence whomever murdered Mark wanted their killing to be extremely graphic or dramatic in nature judging from the amount of ammunition used and even the amount of ammunition left behind at the scene the killing to me has all the earmarks of a frenzied attack. For me the crime scene offers up the possibility that the person who killed Mark may have had nothing to do with Judy Groezinger whatsoever and instead was a very sick, disturbed predator looking to stage a very graphic execution in an isolated area on a total stranger.

A serial killer would not have wasted the time to unload bullet after bullet into Mark, especially if he was dead. How did the serial killer get into Mark's passenger side? Why was Mark pulled over on the side of the road in the first place, when he was supposed to play pool that night? And why would the serial killer take Mark's keys and nothing else? We do not know what the scene of the crime looked like. But the investigators interviewed on the UM segment all agreed that it was a "crime of passion" type killing. Definitely not something you would associate with a serial killer.

I put Judy in the same bucket as Jule Caylor: guilty but we just can't prove it.

There is a lot of circumstantial evidence against her and it was obviously a crime of passion. She had method, opportunity, and probably motive. Her buying the gun, to me, screams of her guilt.

But sadly I think we will never know for sure.

I put Judy in the same bucket as Jule Caylor: guilty but we just can't prove it.


Absolutely agree.

so did she kill her husband to be with a woman? :eek:

so did she kill her husband to be with a woman? :eek:

Well that was what the segment implied. Either that or she murdered him to collect on a $100,000 life insurance policy. Her entire interview is just bizarre in my opinion though especially her explanation as to her claim on the insurance. She says something like "Well I never really expected to get any money anyhow (long pause) but they did end up paying out several months later".


Also Robin, I do think that Mark's family doesn't hold Judy responsible for Mark's death. So many times in segments like this one you have friends or family members come forward and offer their viewpoints that the marriage was in trouble or the couple was arguing or whatnot but there is nothing like that here. Which leaves us with those two potential motives the segment focused on.

so did she kill her husband to be with a woman? :eek:

Bingo.

Bingo.

See but if that is the case that in enough of itself doesn't make much sense. Why wouldn't she just ask Mark for a divorce? To my knowledge there weren't any children involved in the relationship so there wouldn't even have been a custody battle. It basically would just been a run of the mill divorce proceeding.

You really need to factor in the $100 grand to scratch out any type of legitimate motive against Judy Groezinger.

See but if that is the case that in enough of itself doesn't make much sense. Why wouldn't she just ask Mark for a divorce? To my knowledge there weren't any children involved in the relationship so there wouldn't even have been a custody battle. It basically would just been a run of the mill divorce proceeding.

You really need to factor in the $100 grand to scratch out any type of legitimate motive against Judy Groezinger.

She seems to be the only one really with any kind of motive to kill him or have him killed. She could've had one of her lesbian "friends" kill him and then cash in on the life insurance and run away with a woman like she's innocent. Maybe getting a divorce wasn't the issue, maybe she just wanted him out of the picture so she could take his money and live her life with a woman.

See but if that is the case that in enough of itself doesn't make much sense. Why wouldn't she just ask Mark for a divorce? To my knowledge there weren't any children involved in the relationship so there wouldn't even have been a custody battle. It basically would just been a run of the mill divorce proceeding.

You really need to factor in the $100 grand to scratch out any type of legitimate motive against Judy Groezinger.

A divorce wouldn't have resulted in the big payoff his life insurance would have paid her. That's motive enough right there. She killed him to A. get the money from his life insurance and B. be with her "friend". We don't know how "civil" the dinner was that night between the three of them. Maybe Mark had growing suspicions about their "friendship" and pointed it out. Who knows?

A divorce wouldn't have resulted in the big payoff his life insurance would have paid her. That's motive enough right there. She killed him to A. get the money from his life insurance and B. be with her "friend". We don't know how "civil" the dinner was that night between the three of them. Maybe Mark had growing suspicions about their "friendship" and pointed it out. Who knows?

Well in enough of itself the life insurance policy does not provide enough motive for murder. You really do need the combination of the two factors and even then I would say it's not a clear cut winner.

What really makes Judy Groezinger look guilty in my opinion is both her interview and the fact that she was unable to answer any of the charges stemming from the sale of the handgun, the accusations that she was seen with a mysterious man that nobody can account for on two separate occasions one of them being when she was buying the gun and the fact that nobody else except Judy's friend can scratch out an alibi for Judy's whereabouts during the period of time when Mark was murdered.

Her "friend" could have also been the one who wanted Mark dead for the same exact reasons Judy would have wanted him gone.

Its funny how many of the cases where its the wife that disappears or gets victimized and its painfully obvious it was the husband (Page & Marfeo definitely come to mind).

Well here's the reverse. Even though there isn't enough evidence to link her to the crime, I have no doubt that the wife had something to do with it. The fact that she lied about where she was and buying a gun and the fact that she is the only one to benefit from this crime makes me think she had something to do with it.

Not that it matters much anymore, but was it ever confirmed if she was in a lesbian relationship with her friend? If so then that builds suspicion in my eyes since getting him out of the way to be with her new lover seems plausible.

Boy, I'm torn on this one.

On one hand, Judy just screams guilty. Her interview, quite frankly, sucks. She spends the whole time with a "deer caught in headlights" look and it seems she didn't prepare at all for it. She had 5 years (between the murder and the time of the segment) to come up with convincing answers to questions, but she just doesn't. For example, when asked why her friend moved in the day after Mark's murder, Judy *could have* said something to the effect of she was terrified of a murderer being in the community and didn't want to be alone. Instead, she does a weak job of trying to disprove the rumors of an affair.

But...there a few lingering nuggets that can't be easily explained. She volunteered and PASSED a lie detector (and for that matter, Tim McClure FAILED his and many people think he's innocent). Judy also talks about what a nice guy Mark was and she's soft-spoken, pretty and just doesn't seem like she could murder Mark. Perhaps I'm just being incredibly naive or she orchestrated the murder but didn't pull the trigger, but....I just have a hard time believing she shot him so excessively.

There seem to be quite a few conflicting accounts of the timeline near the murder (aka the whole business of being at a bar, going to the liquor store, being dropped off), so I can't make heads or tails of it.

Now there's a possibility Judy wasn't *in love* with Mark, but still loved him nonetheless. There is no accounts of any abuse, hatred or anything of that nature in the marriage. I think it would take a particularly callous person to murder or orchestrate the violent murder of a guy that was reportedly liked by everyone, and I just have nagging doubts that Judy was that person.

The big 800 pound gorilla in the room is the mystery man Judy was hanging around with. Who is this person?

The big 800 pound gorilla in the room is the mystery man Judy was hanging around with. Who is this person?

The guy she hired to kill Mark.

I think if there weren't two individual witnesses who gave precisely matching descriptions of the man Judy was seen with and the pawn shop's record of Judy purchasing a handgun 72 hours before Mark was shot, I think I'd probably believe she was innocent. But those two things are just too majorly indicative of her involvement, IMO.

First of all, the facts are:
1. Judy moved in with her parents after Mark was murdered, because whoever did it, had the house keys. And I'm sure she was in shock. Then she got a house with her sister and sister's husband. So, whoever decided she moved in with a woman the next day, does not know what they are talking about.
2. The insurance policy was in effect for years. They had a young child and Mark wanted to be sure they were protected. Mark had just changed companies. The insurance co. wouldn't have paid anything if they had suspicions and I'm sure they checked it out thoroughly. If she wanted the insurance money, she could have done something when he had the previous insurance.
3. So, she bought a gun. They both shot guns for years.
4. She wasn't with anyone when she bought the gun. The pawn shop guy probably didn't remember a week later and deals with buying and selling guns all the time. Why would she need someone with her when she knows about guns?
5. She had plenty of ways to get a gun if she wanted to without leaving tracks.
6. There was a serial killer in the area who had killed someone the week before which police admited later. serial killer had killed someone in the area the week before.
7. Finger prints on the beer can? Get real. There were probably finger prints all over the car since she drove it too. They drank beer and sometimes she bought it and sometimes he bought it.
8. Sensationalism seems to be what we all crave but facts are facts...

I have no idea whether this is accurate or not, but it would certainly put a different spin on things.

The big problem is that we know nothing about Judy's friend, or the man she was supposedly seen with. These are 2 big parts to the equation, and we have next to no information on them.

I don't think it was necessarily true that Judy was a full-fledged lesbian. Perhaps she was bisexual? I also have to wonder if she, Mark and the friend had a 3-way relationship. They did all go out to the bar together. Perhaps the friend was tired of "sharing" Judy and wanted Mark out of the way so she could have Judy for herself. This might explain the rage killing, the friend viewed Mark as someone who was standing in her way. Judy may be guilty of nothing more than being incredibly naive, at worst covering for someone. Now the clerk at the pawn shop, he definitely seemed gay.

I don't think she was necessarily with the biker guy at the pawn shop. Perhaps he happened to be in the store and she wanted a second opinion on the gun.

It wouldn't totally surprise me if Judy was guilty, but I don't think is cut-and-dried. I feel there is a lot of unknown information on this one.

I don't know if Judy was the actual triggerman in Mark's murder, but I certainly think she had a hand in the planning of his death.

I saw this one last night, and I think she's probably guilty. The guy the people saw her with at the pawn shop was probably the trigger man, in my opinion, and Judy paid him to do the deed, so she could go off with her girlfriend. The only way Judy could be innocent in my opinion is if either someone else completely did it or the guy she bought the gun for (maybe a secret boyfriend or something) did it without her knowledge...but I don't really believe that.

I saw this one last night, and I think she's probably guilty. The guy the people saw her with at the pawn shop was probably the trigger man, in my opinion, and Judy paid him to do the deed, so she could go off with her girlfriend. The only way Judy could be innocent in my opinion is if either someone else completely did it or the guy she bought the gun for (maybe a secret boyfriend or something) did it without her knowledge...but I don't really believe that.

Oh man. When I saw your username, I thought you were *the* Mystery Man as described in the segment and came here to post your inside knowledge. That would have been wild.

Oh man. When I saw your username, I thought you were *the* Mystery Man as described in the segment and came here to post your inside knowledge. That would have been wild.

Hehe, that's weird! Getting off-topic for a second, have anyone interviewed on UM ever showed up on here? I've seen people related to the case, but not anyone interviewed on the show itself yet. That'd be interesting for sure.

Hehe, that's weird! Getting off-topic for a second, have anyone interviewed on UM ever showed up on here? I've seen people related to the case, but not anyone interviewed on the show itself yet. That'd be interesting for sure.

Off the top of my head: Morris Davis's brother has posted here, Dale Kerstetter's daughter has posted several times, Lisa Marie Kimmell's mother has posted here, and I believe Don Dixon (from the Eric Tamiyasu) segment has posted here under an alias.

I could've sworn I saw a comment in an online guestbook for a bed-and-breakfast somewhere in Colorado signed by a Judy Groezinger some time ago when I was poking around the internet on this case. I clearly remember this person saying "We enjoyed our stay, we loved it", etc. So if this was our Judy, she's with somebody. If I can dig it up again, I'll post it. Not that it's incredibly chock full of information, but hey.

Here is and update on Judy's current life. After Marks death she is without a doubt a lesbian. I know this because my mom is a lesbian and Judy is her girlfriend. She's living near Parker, Colorado and lives with a roommate. She has my mom completely convinced that she didn't do it, but after seeing the Unsolved mysteries episode I'm definitely skeptical of the whole situation. She seems so cold hearted in the interviews, she bought that gun etc. She doesn't seem like a violent person and is generally pretty quiet when she's around. You definitely have to watch out for the quiet ones. My mom and her have frequent problems with Judy's excessive drinking and vile attitude when she gets drunk.

I just found a Judy Groezinger on a certain popular social networking site who is listed as living in Parker, CO. This is definitely her.

I just found a Judy Groezinger on a certain popular social networking site who is listed as living in Parker, CO. This is definitely her.

I seem to remember coming across some information (maybe earlier in this thread) where her "friend" was id'ed. I think she was a doctor or something. And IIRC she had a website.

She is definitely hiding something. Her whole demeanor comes across as someone who expects to be found guilty and is just going through the motions as someone who doesn't know why anyone would suspect her.

My theory is she paid off someone to kill Mark. If not that, then her friend and/or her did the deed.

Having watched the episode for the first time last night, I also concluded that Judy's behavior during and after the murder is suspicious. On another note: reading the earliest posts in this thread and their attitude towards homosexuality ("Lesbo" lover, the assumption that one of the women in a same-sex arrangement must be "butch") repulsed me. C'mon, guys.

And, yeah, Judy uses certain social media. She's aged but hasn't changed much.

She moved out of the house less than a week after Mark was killed, correct? Judy Groezinger has always been the female Mark Nichols, IMO.

She moved out of the house less than a week after Mark was killed, correct? Judy Groezinger has always been the female Mark Nichols, IMO.

She even sounds like him, with that sleepy, bored slow drawl.

On another note: reading the earliest posts in this thread and their attitude towards homosexuality ("Lesbo" lover, the assumption that one of the women in a same-sex arrangement must be "butch") repulsed me. C'mon, guys.

I wholeheartedly agree.

This may be a bit out there, but I think it's something that Judy has kept the Groezinger name, even after all these years. If she planned Mark's murder and wasn't grieving over it, why would she keep his name for decades afterwards?

Why wouldn't she just ask Mark for a divorce? To my knowledge there weren't any children involved in the relationship so there wouldn't even have been a custody battle. It basically would just been a run of the mill divorce proceeding.

Not sure of his/her source, but...

First of all, the facts are:
[SNIP]
2. The insurance policy was in effect for years. They had a young child and Mark wanted to be sure they were protected. Mark had just changed companies. The insurance co. wouldn't have paid anything if they had suspicions and I'm sure they checked it out thoroughly. If she wanted the insurance money, she could have done something when he had the previous insurance.
[SNIP]

...??

Just watched this segment again, and I am still not convinced of her innocence.

Did Mark and Judy have a child? I don't recall that being mentioned in the segment, but I suppose it could have been omitted.

Damm that'll give me nightmares now.

Did Mark and Judy have a child? I don't recall that being mentioned in the segment, but I suppose it could have been omitted.

Yes, Mark and Judy had a child. He is in a very bad way the last I had heard living with his grandmother in her basement with little to no job. The whole thing really messed him up and I don't think he'll ever recover.

(My mother is one of Judy's exes and was with Judy for several years)

I wholeheartedly agree.

This may be a bit out there, but I think it's something that Judy has kept the Groezinger name, even after all these years. If she planned Mark's murder and wasn't grieving over it, why would she keep his name for decades afterwards?

Yes, the gay angle always kind of bothered me, not only in posts, but the segment itself. I just get this 80's "she's an evil lesbian, so of course the evil lesbian did it!"....well, it doesn't matter whether it was a man or a woman, the focus should be that there might have been an affair happening, hence giving Judy a motive.

As far as the last name, I'm not surprised, especially since they had a child. Many women who are divorced will keep their last name so that they have the same last name as their children. A widow changing her last name would be super suspicious, especially considering all of the other suspicion Judy was already under. So maybe keeping the last name was a calculated decision, maybe she just kept it to have the same last name as her child, maybe she was used to having that last name, maybe she was too lazy to go change it, or maybe she had some horrible butt-ugly maiden name that she couldn't deal with again LOL.

Yes, Mark and Judy had a child. He is in a very bad way the last I had heard living with his grandmother in her basement with little to no job. The whole thing really messed him up and I don't think he'll ever recover.

(My mother is one of Judy's exes and was with Judy for several years)

Wow!!! This is an insightful update, thank you!!!! Thanks for joining and posting! Not trying to be aggressive, but since you probably have some intimate details, any thoughts you could (or be willing to) share about all of this and Judy's potential involvement?

She even sounds like him, with that sleepy, bored slow drawl.

:lol: I would love to be the silent invisible observer on their first date, you can just imagine the conversation :lol:

Yes, the gay angle always kind of bothered me, not only in posts, but the segment itself. I just get this 80's "she's an evil lesbian, so of course the evil lesbian did it!"....well, it doesn't matter whether it was a man or a woman, the focus should be that there might have been an affair happening, hence giving Judy a motive.


Actually, there is an old stereotype that Bisexuals (and let's face it, if she had a child with Mark than that is what she was) are deceitful, one that is still commonly heard up to the present (basically, you don't know which 'mask' they will be wearing, etc).

It's not so much the "friend" moving in with Judy the day after Mark's murder that makes me think she's guilty (because it could just innocently be a friend who moved in to help someone grieve), but the repeated sightings of Judy with this mystery man at the pawn shop and liquor store make me believe she's definitely involved with Mark's murder. The lady that worked at the liquor store was adamant that she knew both Mark and Judy well, and Mark was never in the store that night but she did see Judy there with the mystery man.

It's not so much the "friend" moving in with Judy the day after Mark's murder that makes me think she's guilty (because it could just innocently be a friend who moved in to help someone grieve), but the repeated sightings of Judy with this mystery man at the pawn shop and liquor store make me believe she's definitely involved with Mark's murder. The lady that worked at the liquor store was adamant that she knew both Mark and Judy well, and Mark was never in the store that night but she did see Judy there with the mystery man.

Me too.

Yes, Mark and Judy had a child. He is in a very bad way the last I had heard living with his grandmother in her basement with little to no job. The whole thing really messed him up and I don't think he'll ever recover.

(My mother is one of Judy's exes and was with Judy for several years)

Wow! I had no idea they had a child! Not sure why UM wouldn't have mentioned it as part of the background of the case.

Yes, Mark and Judy had a child. He is in a very bad way the last I had heard living with his grandmother in her basement with little to no job. The whole thing really messed him up and I don't think he'll ever recover.

(My mother is one of Judy's exes and was with Judy for several years)
Thanks for answering! :wave: Do you have any idea how old the son was at the time of the murder? I'm sorry to hear that he may not recover from the trauma. Even after thirty years losing a parent and having your other parent be a suspect in the crime would doubtless be haunting and not easy to get over. Do you have a personal opinion about Judy,if I may ask?

I just saw this segment and read this whole thread. Someone mentioned Judy was on a certain social media site (I'm starting to realize my overt references to "certain social media sites" in a previous post may have been against forum rules?) so I looked her up. First off, in the context of the minor "stereotype" discussions in this thread, I did find it amusing that her top three artists when I viewed the page were kd lang, Melissa Ethridge, and the Indigo Girls. (These are randomized and only 3 of 66 artists she "likes", many of which would not fit the "stereotype". Just kind of amused me.)

ANYWAY...what amused me more (again, in the context of this thread) was a recent status update:

Judy Groezinger
May 25
OK I was going down Parker Road heading to Franktown to meet The Mile High Sisters to ride to the paint mines in Calhan. I wanted to go just to see what these Paint mines are about.
I was going down Parker Road and when the road turns to one lane I let her rip to get ahead of a truck that seemed to want to beat me...Ha! I blew him away but as I was going through the green light my eyes noticed a police officer cuddled nice and sweet on the right behind the light... My heart sank as he pulled out as soon as he saw me...I was only going 85...Once again I would be in trouble and all I was doing was having fun.. I went down the road knowing he was going to catch up to me and I'd be late meeting my group so I decided to turn up a road where I go hiking a lot on Cobble Stone. I sped up past the bridge and parked behind it... hum... That cop never saw me and kept going down Parker Road.
I met the lady's and didn't have to be late because of a darn ticket. We ate in Elbert and the mines are a real treat....Once again I'm so lucky

I'm sure the references to "once again" narrowly escaping trouble with the law have nothing to do with Mark's death, but having just read this thread it was "amusing" in that context.

I blew him away

How apt these words are coming from Judy.

Oh my , Judy is a naughty lady ! The words"once again" are quite interesting ....I assume she must be a regular rule breaker (and she seems to relish it ! :o ) , interesting personality trait .....

ANYWAY...what amused me more (again, in the context of this thread) was a recent status update:

Judy Groezinger
May 25
OK I was going down Parker Road heading to Franktown to meet The Mile High Sisters to ride to the paint mines in Calhan. I wanted to go just to see what these Paint mines are about.
I was going down Parker Road and when the road turns to one lane I let her rip to get ahead of a truck that seemed to want to beat me...Ha! I blew him away but as I was going through the green light my eyes noticed a police officer cuddled nice and sweet on the right behind the light... My heart sank as he pulled out as soon as he saw me...I was only going 85...Once again I would be in trouble and all I was doing was having fun.. I went down the road knowing he was going to catch up to me and I'd be late meeting my group so I decided to turn up a road where I go hiking a lot on Cobble Stone. I sped up past the bridge and parked behind it... hum... That cop never saw me and kept going down Parker Road.
I met the lady's and didn't have to be late because of a darn ticket. We ate in Elbert and the mines are a real treat....Once again I'm so lucky

Wow. The choice of words there is very interesting. Again, may have nothing to do with Mark's case, but interesting choice of words nonetheless.

I think its telling that the only time she showed ANY emotion at all during her interview on UM is when she smirked about how the insurance company ended up settling the claim on Mark's life.
That's a great point. I was listening to this seg while I worked. You can simply hear the somewhat enthusiastic sarcasm in her voice. Now that doesn't prove she's guilty but it doesn't seem like the behavior of a grieving spouse. I think she either shot him herself or hired the man to do it. She got caught in too many lies and her excuse for buying the gun for mark was porous.

My personal opinion is that Mark Groezinger's wife is responsible for his death. I do think she is a lesbian which in normal circumstances wouldn't have a bearing but in this circumstance it gave her a motive....to get rid of her husband so she could be with her "friend". Some witnesses with nothing to gain have put the wife with an unknown man together purchasing a gun and I believe in a liquor store. I believe she hired this man to kill her husband for the insurance money and so she could be with her friend. She has denied being seen with the man and the people who claimed to have seen her would have no reason to lie. If she was innocently at a store with a friend she wouldn't have any problem admitting to it. I think her and her friend planned that they would be dropped off early that night to give the person who killed Mark a chance to catch him alone. I have no idea why he was found in such an isolated area though. Anyway I know there's not enough evidence to arrest anyone obviously but those are my thoughts on the case.i agree with this. I think that's exactly what happened. Why would she have this man with her gun shopping? Why would she lie about it? Why would people that know her and mark not remember her being with mark as she claims but instead with this man in question.

Another problem with her story is it doesn't make since that mark would send her to gun shop for him. And it doesn't make sense that she would agree to do it. Most spouses would not agree to purchase a weapon for their spouse under the condition that it is for an illegal purpose. Then he turns up dead soon after?

I just saw this segment and read this whole thread. Someone mentioned Judy was on a certain social media site (I'm starting to realize my overt references to "certain social media sites" in a previous post may have been against forum rules?) so I looked her up. First off, in the context of the minor "stereotype" discussions in this thread, I did find it amusing that her top three artists when I viewed the page were kd lang, Melissa Ethridge, and the Indigo Girls. (These are randomized and only 3 of 66 artists she "likes", many of which would not fit the "stereotype". Just kind of amused me.)

ANYWAY...what amused me more (again, in the context of this thread) was a recent status update:

Judy Groezinger
May 25
OK I was going down Parker Road heading to Franktown to meet The Mile High Sisters to ride to the paint mines in Calhan. I wanted to go just to see what these Paint mines are about.
I was going down Parker Road and when the road turns to one lane I let her rip to get ahead of a truck that seemed to want to beat me...Ha! I blew him away but as I was going through the green light my eyes noticed a police officer cuddled nice and sweet on the right behind the light... My heart sank as he pulled out as soon as he saw me...I was only going 85...Once again I would be in trouble and all I was doing was having fun.. I went down the road knowing he was going to catch up to me and I'd be late meeting my group so I decided to turn up a road where I go hiking a lot on Cobble Stone. I sped up past the bridge and parked behind it... hum... That cop never saw me and kept going down Parker Road.
I met the lady's and didn't have to be late because of a darn ticket. We ate in Elbert and the mines are a real treat....Once again I'm so lucky

I'm sure the references to "once again" narrowly escaping trouble with the law have nothing to do with Mark's death, but having just read this thread it was "amusing" in that context.

Wow, nice find!!

What's interesting to me in this segment, is each and everytime Judy is faced with a question, be it the liquor store or the biker looking man or the lesbian angle, her statement and demeanor is the EXACT SAME. She says "its simply not true". That's it. Well, she was obviously lying about the lesbian angle. If she can lie about the lesbian angle in the same tone/demeanor, then she can certainly use that very same tone/demeanor/statement to lie about other things, namely, Mark's death.

Eh – that's a stretch. Twenty-five years ago it was harder to tell the truth about your sexuality, and worse when you're on a show watched by millions of people. Lying about her sexuality is a venal sin compared to what she's accused of.

I've been going back and forth on this one lately, but more often guilty than not. I always got the impression she took "downers" before filming her interview, maybe she didn't want to seem too excited and blurt something out she would regret.

Eh – that's a stretch. Twenty-five years ago it was harder to tell the truth about your sexuality, and worse when you're on a show watched by millions of people. Lying about her sexuality is a venal sin compared to what she's accused of.

My point is, she denied anything they asked her. Everything was a denial. They could have said "ma'am are you on planet Earth?" and she'd say no.

I've been going back and forth on this one lately, but more often guilty than not. I always got the impression she took "downers" before filming her interview, maybe she didn't want to seem too excited and blurt something out she would regret.

I wouldn't doubt it.

Out of curiosity, what made you think she was not guilty? She certainly could be and I go back and forth on a lot of cases, but this one always struck me as a definite guilty.

I wouldn't doubt it.

Out of curiosity, what made you think she was not guilty? She certainly could be and I go back and forth on a lot of cases, but this one always struck me as a definite guilty.

3 things:

1) there are other suspects (her apparent girlfriend, the guy at the pawn shop)

2) that Mark was shot excessively, and she didn't seem to hate him, dislike him or anything of that nature.

3) she passed a lie detector test.

3 things:

1) there are other suspects (her apparent girlfriend, the guy at the pawn shop)

2) that Mark was shot excessively, and she didn't seem to hate him, dislike him or anything of that nature.

3) she passed a lie detector test.

Oh, I didn't mean that "she pulled the trigger". I believe she had a hand in planning/executing the plan to kill Mark.

3 things:

1) there are other suspects (her apparent girlfriend, the guy at the pawn shop)

Both of whom are connected to Judy. The girlfriend is the girlfriend. The guy at the pawnshop was seen with Judy.

2) that Mark was shot excessively, and she didn't seem to hate him, dislike him or anything of that nature.

Could also be evidence of an inexperienced killer not knowing how many rounds were necessary to "get the job done" so to speak and empyting the gun just to be sure.

3) she passed a lie detector test.

Hard to lend much credence without knowing more about the circumstances behind how it was administered. For example, was it the police who administered the test or did she have one done on her own and on her dime? Also, what kinds of questions were asked.

I've never been a fan of polygraphs myself. Guilty people have passed them. Innocent people have failed them.

Eh – that's a stretch. Twenty-five years ago it was harder to tell the truth about your sexuality, and worse when you're on a show watched by millions of people. Lying about her sexuality is a venal sin compared to what she's accused of.

Yeah, I agree. Even though we now know she was lying about her sexuality, considering the time period and the location, it's not surprising. I don't see this as a strike against her in terms of assessing her culpability.

I've never been a fan of polygraphs myself. Guilty people have passed them. Innocent people have failed them.

Completely agree with this.

Hard to lend much credence without knowing more about the circumstances behind how it was administered. For example, was it the police who administered the test or did she have one done on her own and on her dime? Also, what kinds of questions were asked.

I believe Robert Stack specifically said that Judy voluntarily took her own lie detector test at her own expense and passed. So I'd definitely have my doubts about it being the most reliable test.

Not sure if its has been mentioned or not, but Judy Groezinger is on Facebook.

Look she knows something. Anyone can pass a lie detector test.

Both of whom are connected to Judy. The girlfriend is the girlfriend. The guy at the pawnshop was seen with Judy.

I don't think many conclusions can be drawn about the mystery man. Hell, he could have been some random person that Judy, never having bought a gun before, wanted an opinion from. And if they were both in on it, would they be seen there together? Probably not, unless Judy is really stupid.

Since there are 2 suspects other than Judy, it becomes a little hard to conclusively say she had a hand in it. I wouldn’t be 100% surprised if she did, but let’s look at the other people. Perhaps the girlfriend was tired of Mark being “in the way” and knocked him off. Who is the mystery man and could he have had any motive? I understand that Judy and the girlfriend moving in together right after Mark’s death looks suspicious, but perhaps Judy wasn’t too bummed since she had another relationship waiting in the wings?

And would it have taken 3 people conspiring together to kill Mark, who probably never saw it coming?

There’s a lot of unanswered questions on this one. I just don’t think it’s cut and dried.

I don't think many conclusions can be drawn about the mystery man. Hell, he could have been some random person that Judy, never having bought a gun before, wanted an opinion from. And if they were both in on it, would they be seen there together? Probably not, unless Judy is really stupid.

Since there are 2 suspects other than Judy, it becomes a little hard to conclusively say she had a hand in it. I wouldn’t be 100% surprised if she did, but let’s look at the other people. Perhaps the girlfriend was tired of Mark being “in the way” and knocked him off. Who is the mystery man and could he have had any motive? I understand that Judy and the girlfriend moving in together right after Mark’s death looks suspicious, but perhaps Judy wasn’t too bummed since she had another relationship waiting in the wings?

And would it have taken 3 people conspiring together to kill Mark, who probably never saw it coming?

There’s a lot of unanswered questions on this one. I just don’t think it’s cut and dried.

You make some interesting points, however, in each of them, I still think Judy has some level of knowledge about the murder.

I don't think many conclusions can be drawn about the mystery man. Hell, he could have been some random person that Judy, never having bought a gun before, wanted an opinion from. And if they were both in on it, would they be seen there together? Probably not, unless Judy is really stupid.

Yeah, but if the guy at the pawn shop was just a friend or someone asking for advice, why wouldn't Judy come out and say that? She flat out denied being at the pawn shop with this guy. The people who witnessed this knew Judy personally, and there were several witnesses whose stories about her being with this man at different locations (they were seen together at a liquor store too, IIRC) all jibed so I doubt the witnesses were mistaken. If the witnesses are correct and she was there buying a gun (the same model of which was used in the shooting and disappeared thereafter) then you really have to wonder why she is so insistent that she wasn't there and what she is trying to hide.

Since there are 2 suspects other than Judy, it becomes a little hard to conclusively say she had a hand in it. I wouldn’t be 100% surprised if she did, but let’s look at the other people. Perhaps the girlfriend was tired of Mark being “in the way” and knocked him off. Who is the mystery man and could he have had any motive? I understand that Judy and the girlfriend moving in together right after Mark’s death looks suspicious, but perhaps Judy wasn’t too bummed since she had another relationship waiting in the wings?

And would it have taken 3 people conspiring together to kill Mark, who probably never saw it coming?

There’s a lot of unanswered questions on this one. I just don’t think it’s cut and dried.

You're right, it's not cut and dry and I tend to think that is probably why Judy wasn't charged.

My personal theory is that Judy wanted to kill Mark. Why? Maybe it was because she wanted to have a relationship with her friend, maybe not. It could have also been over the insurance money, or a combination of both motives. As to whether Judy's friend was in on it, I don't know.

Regardless, I think Judy hired this dude to commit the murder. She and the guy went to the pawn shop together to buy the gun. Thus, Judy had to deny the eyewitness accounts placing them together at the pawn shop because she couldn't explain to the authorities who the guy really was.

I think the guy went out on his own and killed Mark. It's possible that Judy tipped him off as to Mark's whereabouts on the night in question, and the guy got the drop on Mark. Being an amateur killer, he fired so many shots (more than what was required) to make sure Mark would die.

Judy moves in with her friend and collects the life insurance and the rest is history.

What if the "man" Judy was spotted with at the pawn shop and at the liquor store was actually the woman she was in a relationship with? Some lesbian relationships involve butch looking women. I wonder if the woman she was with during and shortly after this murder was butch looking.

Yeah, but if the guy at the pawn shop was just a friend or someone asking for advice, why wouldn't Judy come out and say that? She flat out denied being at the pawn shop with this guy. The people who witnessed this knew Judy personally, and there were several witnesses whose stories about her being with this man at different locations (they were seen together at a liquor store too, IIRC) all jibed so I doubt the witnesses were mistaken. If the witnesses are correct and she was there buying a gun (the same model of which was used in the shooting and disappeared thereafter) then you really have to wonder why she is so insistent that she wasn't there and what she is trying to hide.

Eyewitness accounts don't add up to a hill of beans in my book. Heck, at the top of this page currently is the thread "Eyewitnesses who were wrong." And man, is that a long thread.

I need to rewatch the segment. But I want to point out a couple of things:

1) A link I found said that Mark had jewelry which was stolen, in addition to his keys. Yet apparently, the segment said robbery was ruled out as a motive? How did they arrive to that conclusion then, if it's true?

2) It seems very odd that Judy, if she was guilty, would say that Mark had no known enemies. A guilty person would probably be casting suspicion on anyone and everyone she could, anything to get the attention off her. She might even create people that don't exist to send the authorities on a wild goose chase. Admitting she doesn't know of any motive anyone would have is foolish IMO, because it brings the attention right back to her. And why would she keep his last name all these years?

It's also interesting to note she and Mark share a gravestone

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=67848424

Look, I'm not sold on her innocence. As an interviewee, she sucks. Not quite up to Tim McClure level, but she's up there.

It seems very odd that Judy, if she was guilty, would say that Mark had no known enemies. A guilty person would probably be casting suspicion on anyone and everyone she could, anything to get the attention off her. She might even create people that don't exist to send the authorities on a wild goose chase.

She definitely did not attend the "Don Dixon School of Throwing People Under the Bus".

Okay, rewatched it.

-Mark's brother stated he thought it was gang-related and didn't believe Judy had a hand in it.

-I should point out that the man in the pawn shop and the man in the liquor store (if either or both of them exist) may not necessarily even be the same person. We only have vague descriptions of him/them (biker guy, tall...) What happens if they are 2 different people? Then the case gets even stranger still.

-is Judy stupid enough to go into a liquor store where somebody both she and her husband knows works, with a guy other than her husband, and then try to pass it off that she was there with her husband?

-The manner in which Mark was killed was deemed as "excessive" and the weapon was reloaded at least twice. I would imagine Mark was shot in excess of a dozen times, perhaps well in excess. I understand that an inexperienced criminal might shoot more times than necessary to ensure the job is done, but reloading at least twice? This was overkill in an extreme fashion.

There's a lot of info I'd like to know. Was the area by the shrine well traveled? Did Mark tend to go there a lot? Did Judy have a car?

Man if Judy is not guilty which I lean that she had something to do with it.....at the very least she comes off as one of the most Unlikeable spouses ever featured.

Man if Judy is not guilty which I lean that she had something to do with it.....at the very least she comes off as one of the most Unlikeable spouses ever featured.

even though some of her answers seemed a bit sketchy, she didn't come across as particularly objectionable to me. She stated Mark was a nice guy and never had anything negative to say about him.

The thing is, if we take away the eyewitness statements, which have a long history of being wrong, there really isn't anything that points to Judy.

Casting suspicion on other people and fabricating enemies is probably one of the dumbest things a criminal could do. Because guess what happens when the police investigate these people and rule them out as suspects? It leads them right back to the person accusing everyone.

Judy Gross-Singer

It's probably nothing but I think its interesting that Judy still has Mark's last name and never went back to her maiden name.

It's probably nothing but I think its interesting that Judy still has Mark's last name and never went back to her maiden name.

I mentioned that a couple times and I think it's significant, especially after more than 30 years.

even though some of her answers seemed a bit sketchy, she didn't come across as particularly objectionable to me. She stated Mark was a nice guy and never had anything negative to say about him.

The thing is, if we take away the eyewitness statements, which have a long history of being wrong, there really isn't anything that points to Judy.
Good point.

True about the eye witness. You never know when they are right nor wrong. Just like the caller in the Tim McClure case could of been wrong his word/recall vs hers.

even though some of her answers seemed a bit sketchy, she didn't come across as particularly objectionable to me. She stated Mark was a nice guy and never had anything negative to say about him.

The thing is, if we take away the eyewitness statements, which have a long history of being wrong, there really isn't anything that points to Judy.

Re-reading this thread. I think this is a good point. She seems to be the exact opposite of Jule Caylor. Jule trashed his (likely dead) spouse on national TV, while Judy seemed sympathetic to Mark and had nothing but nice things to say about him. You tend to see more of the Jule Caylor type reactions from spouses with suspicion on them.

Re-reading this thread. I think this is a good point. She seems to be the exact opposite of Jule Caylor. Jule trashed his (likely dead) spouse on national TV, while Judy seemed sympathetic to Mark and had nothing but nice things to say about him. You tend to see more of the Jule Caylor type reactions from spouses with suspicion on them.

I kinda think it could go either way.

If Judy G was innocent, then her positive comments about her husband are understandable because they had a good relationship and she feels the loss.

If she is guilty, the "smart" thing to do would be to say nice things so the police wouldn't suspect she had a motive.

I just think Judy was a pathological liar who probably never told the truth in her life. Her story was full of holes.

I just think Judy was a pathological liar who probably never told the truth in her life. Her story was full of holes.

Her story was full of holes IF you believe all the eyewitness accounts. I've always thought she was guilty but when I read this thread over again, I started to doubt my initial thoughts.

For one, why would Judy bring another man into all these stores that she has friends who either work at the store or frequent the store? Why risk being seen with another man if you're planning to murder your husband?

Also, Mark's own brother doesn't believe she had anything to do with the murder.

Take away the eyewitness accounts of Judy and the man for a second: she still looks guilty as hell.

-A paper bag was found full of ammunition sitting on the passenger side floor.
-Casings were found inside and outside of the car.
-Mark never arrived at the bar that night. No eyewitnesses place him anywhere after his dinner with Judy and the friend.
-Judy says that Mark dropped her off at their house at 8:00 p.m. that night. Coincidentally, a wedding party was having a reception near the site where Mark's body and car were found and they remembered seeing his car at the site at 8:00 p.m.
-The only things missing from the crime scene were the murder weapon and Mark's car keys. A random killer would have no reason to steal Mark's keys from the vehicle.
-The same type of gun used to kill Mark was coincidentally bought (and registered to) Judy three days before Mark's murder. When confronted by police as to why she never told them this, she says she "forgot".
-Judy's story as to why she bought the gun was that Mark asked her to do it for someone underage and that Mark was too busy to do it. While that absolutely makes no sense at all, to further complicate her story, she also bought ammunition for the gun as well.
-Judy claims that Mark bought a bottle of whiskey on the night of his murder. The woman who was working that night, who knew Mark personally, says that he never went into the store that day.
-Now taking into account the eyewitnesses who say that they saw Judy with a biker, this cannot be discredited. The gun shop worker did not know Judy personally, but he says that he remembered seeing her (after the police showed him a picture of Mark and Judy) but not Mark, and that she was with the biker looking guy. Now it's hinted in the dialogue in the segment, but the worker at the liquor store says something to the effect of, "yeah I know Mark personally and I know Judy", which makes it seem like she was closer to Mark than Judy. But she still knew Judy and she also says he was with a biker looking guy. The two witnesses accounts match. They should not be discredited. Two different people at two different locations who did not know each other both have the same exact story of Judy with this man.
-Beer found in Mark's car showed a receipt from a different liquor store than the one Judy named as the one they went to on the night of Mark's murder.
-Judy's fingerprints were found on one of the beer bottles found in Mark's car.
-Mark was killed from someone shooting from the passenger side of the car. More likely than not, it was someone who knew him.

The biggest question I have is, who shot Mark? Judy, or the biker guy, or even the friend for that matter?

Why would Judy lie about being in the car with Mark that night and also lie about what liquor store they went to and to what was bought? I think Judy, Mark, and the friend all went up to the point to drink the 6 pack of beer under the pretense that they were then going to go out and play pool. Mark is killed, probably by Judy or the friend (due to the amount of times Mark was shot, the police believe his murder to be a crime of passion). But if Mark's car keys were missing, how did Judy and the friend get home? That's where biker guy comes into play. He shows up, gives them a lift, and then disposes of the gun and the keys. Or it's possible that Judy had prearranged with biker guy to meet them up there that and both of them had a hand in shooting Mark. Maybe the friend did it, and Judy was covering for her. But that wouldn't explain the biker guy being seen around with Judy in the days preceding Mark's death. Whether or not she was the actual trigger man is a moot point, IMO. She's still guilty as hell. She's the one who orchestrated Mark's murder and cover up.

I still think Judy is either guilty of committing Mark's murder or had some sort of hand in it or knowledge of it. I was just pointing out that there are some things that do not look that bad to me anymore.

I also think Mark's brother's quote about him being murdered by a gang is taken out of context. In the segment it's almost as if he's saying that at the time of Mark's murder, he believed it to be the work of some sort of gang. But that's the last we hear from Mark's brother in the entire segment. On the rebroadcast versions I've seen, there is not one single line uttered by him where he says he doesn't believe Judy killed Mark.

They pretty much edit out the 2nd part of his interview featured on the original broadcast.

I just couldn't believe that anybody would want to do that to him because he was very mellow, very loving, very kind. And that's why I thought it was something gang related or something to that effect.

A few months after the investigation the sheriff's department had made the statement to me that Judy was a suspect in the case, and uh, uh, I don't know I...I couldn't say that I felt that she would be, because I don't think Judy would do that kind of thing.

I'm sure his tune has changed since then. This doesn't seem like he's an advocate for Judy's innocence. He's simply saying that when the investigators began to ask him if he thought Judy would want Mark dead, at the time, he said no. Had there been no prior mentions from Mark to Kenneth about marital problems, why would he suspect Judy at all at that point?

Yeah Judy Groezinger is on Facebook and she definitely has the 'lesbian' look. She is in a few pictures that she has set to public and she is with another woman. I'm not sure if that is the lady friend mentioned in the UM segment. She looks like she is still living in Colorado.

Given the fact that Judy apparently is a lesbian now, I wonder if the eyewitness accounts of her being with a "biker looking male with long hair" was just a butch looking lesbian?

Given the fact that Judy apparently is a lesbian now, I wonder if the eyewitness accounts of her being with a "biker looking male with long hair" was just a butch looking lesbian?

Not sure why I remember this, but kadrmas proposed this same theory and got flamed.

Not sure why I remember this, but kadrmas proposed this same theory and got flamed.

I think its a definite possibility. Especially that since we know she lied at the very least about her relationship with the woman. During the segment she said something along the lines of "when you live in a small town and have friends, rumors start". Since then, we now know she is in a relationship to this day with that very woman.

I think its a definite possibility. Especially that since we know she lied at the very least about her relationship with the woman. During the segment she said something along the lines of "when you live in a small town and have friends, rumors start". Since then, we now know she is in a relationship to this day with that very woman.

Wow, do we know she's definitely with the same woman?

Wow, do we know she's definitely with the same woman?

I believe I read it either in this thread or in an article.

Wow, do we know she's definitely with the same woman?

I had the same impression. Maybe someone Facebook-stalked them and figured this out? I can't remember. I do believe she is with the same woman, however.

I think its a definite possibility. Especially that since we know she lied at the very least about her relationship with the woman. During the segment she said something along the lines of "when you live in a small town and have friends, rumors start". Since then, we now know she is in a relationship to this day with that very woman.

Seems plausible to me.

Made it up to Season 8 of the Amazon-spec episodes and didn't want to go any farther, so I started combing back through my own collection to check out 'missing segments'.

I don't think Judy had a hand in the actual murder here - she might've known it went down or she might've actually been there when it did, but I don't think she pulled the trigger or even came up with the idea for it (and that's just based on her mannerisms & the way she talked in the segment).

Going by the way she came off (and taking into account some of the things TheCars1986 said on pg 12), I think someone planted the idea in her head and convinced her to go along with it. She never struck me as someone with a particularly strong will/backbone and from the holes/inconsistencies in her story, whoever hatched the plan and carried it out probably told her something along the lines of "no matter what, just deny it"

Going further, I think whoever hatched this plan saw Mark as an impediment/obstacle. Why or to what end, I have no idea. The idea that sexual preferences/lifestyle choices is the driving force behind this though doesn't jive with me/doesn't fit Occam's Razor.

I am 99% sure that this (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.7318428,-105.1795626,3a,39.9y,113.58h,81.79t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sJo3DCiyzDtffKDKkvOfUTw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) was the house that Mark and Judy shared and was the one used in the reenactment. Look at this (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/811+12th+St,+Golden,+CO+80401/Foss+Company+Wine+%7C+Spirits+%7C+Beer+%7C+Cigars,+1224+Washington+Ave+Suite+115,+Golden,+CO+80401/960+Orchard+Street,+Golden,+CO/39.6989403,-105.2293246/@39.7248454,-105.2292924,9176m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m21!4m20!1m5!1m1!1s0x876b9ad25041ab65:0xf0986f771687ca72!2m2!1d-105.2217811!2d39.7550642!1m5!1m1!1s0x876b9ad31a2ba823:0x797eb2280f2ab592!2m2!1d-105.2209918!2d39.7548018!1m5!1m1!1s0x876b848cbc862fad:0xc9b3f9510b44e96a!2m2!1d-105.1792677!2d39.7317739!1m0!3e0) map of the locations Judy claims they had went on the night of Mark's murder. She says they ate dinner in downtown Golden, and then Mark stopped at a liquor store by their house to buy whiskey before dropping her and her "friend" off back at their house. But the investigators found the receipt from Foss Liquors in Mark's car when his body was discovered. And stopping there actually makes more sense because it was on the way back from the restaurant to their house. She said Mark was going to go back into town to play pool. They were all seen at the restaurant at 6:30 p.m. Mark's car was seen by people on their way to the Mother Cabrini Shrine at 8:00 p.m. that night. Mark should have been nowhere near the Shrine that night because he told both Judy and her "friend" that he was going back into town to play pool. Judy says that Mark dropped her and the "friend" off at 8:00 p.m. that night. But it should have taken no longer than 15 minutes for Mark to stop off at the liquor store and drive them home, so they should have been home closer to 7:00 p.m. What were they doing in this hour of missing time from Judy's story?

The receipt from Foss Liquors showed that a 6 pack of beer was purchased. Judy's fingerprints were on one of the bottles. IMO, she and the "friend" had arranged for Mark's murder to take place on that evening. It was probably arranged for them to go to dinner that night and I think Judy coaxed Mark into taking a late night "joy ride" of sorts where they bought some beer and were going to park up at the Shrine (which does have some amazing views). She murders (or the "friend" did it) Mark, and the two of them drive back to their home in the "friends" vehicle. Remember, the "friend" didn't live at the Groezinger residence until the day after Mark's murder. So her vehicle had to have been there. I think the story Judy told investigators about feeling sick after dinner was the same ruse she gave to Mark that night, but in this case it was the "friend" who claimed to have not been feeling good. So Mark drops the "friend" off before he and Judy drive to the shrine. The "friend" comes and picks Judy up and they arrive back home at around 8:00 p.m. that night. I even think both of them fired bullets into Mark in some sort of bizarre pact to never talk about it and to fabricate an alibi for one another. It is baffling to me as to why next to nothing has been done about Mark's murder in well over 35 years. The evidence, while circumstantial, is there.

I am 99% sure that this (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.7318428,-105.1795626,3a,39.9y,113.58h,81.79t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sJo3DCiyzDtffKDKkvOfUTw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) was the house that Mark and Judy shared and was the one used in the reenactment. Look at this (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/811+12th+St,+Golden,+CO+80401/Foss+Company+Wine+%7C+Spirits+%7C+Beer+%7C+Cigars,+1224+Washington+Ave+Suite+115,+Golden,+CO+80401/960+Orchard+Street,+Golden,+CO/39.6989403,-105.2293246/@39.7248454,-105.2292924,9176m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m21!4m20!1m5!1m1!1s0x876b9ad25041ab65:0xf0986f771687ca72!2m2!1d-105.2217811!2d39.7550642!1m5!1m1!1s0x876b9ad31a2ba823:0x797eb2280f2ab592!2m2!1d-105.2209918!2d39.7548018!1m5!1m1!1s0x876b848cbc862fad:0xc9b3f9510b44e96a!2m2!1d-105.1792677!2d39.7317739!1m0!3e0) map of the locations Judy claims they had went on the night of Mark's murder. She says they ate dinner in downtown Golden, and then Mark stopped at a liquor store by their house to buy whiskey before dropping her and her "friend" off back at their house. But the investigators found the receipt from Foss Liquors in Mark's car when his body was discovered. And stopping there actually makes more sense because it was on the way back from the restaurant to their house. She said Mark was going to go back into town to play pool. They were all seen at the restaurant at 6:30 p.m. Mark's car was seen by people on their way to the Mother Cabrini Shrine at 8:00 p.m. that night. Mark should have been nowhere near the Shrine that night because he told both Judy and her "friend" that he was going back into town to play pool. Judy says that Mark dropped her and the "friend" off at 8:00 p.m. that night. But it should have taken no longer than 15 minutes for Mark to stop off at the liquor store and drive them home, so they should have been home closer to 7:00 p.m. What were they doing in this hour of missing time from Judy's story?

The receipt from Foss Liquors showed that a 6 pack of beer was purchased. Judy's fingerprints were on one of the bottles. IMO, she and the "friend" had arranged for Mark's murder to take place on that evening. It was probably arranged for them to go to dinner that night and I think Judy coaxed Mark into taking a late night "joy ride" of sorts where they bought some beer and were going to park up at the Shrine (which does have some amazing views). She murders (or the "friend" did it) Mark, and the two of them drive back to their home in the "friends" vehicle. Remember, the "friend" didn't live at the Groezinger residence until the day after Mark's murder. So her vehicle had to have been there. I think the story Judy told investigators about feeling sick after dinner was the same ruse she gave to Mark that night, but in this case it was the "friend" who claimed to have not been feeling good. So Mark drops the "friend" off before he and Judy drive to the shrine. The "friend" comes and picks Judy up and they arrive back home at around 8:00 p.m. that night. I even think both of them fired bullets into Mark in some sort of bizarre pact to never talk about it and to fabricate an alibi for one another. It is baffling to me as to why next to nothing has been done about Mark's murder in well over 35 years. The evidence, while circumstantial, is there.

Sounds very plausible. I'm sure the man with Judy at the Pawn shop and Liquor store had something to do with it. Judy always tried to distance herself from him even his existence.

Sounds very plausible. I'm sure the man with Judy at the Pawn shop and Liquor store had something to do with it. Judy always tried to distance herself from him even his existence.

I think it could have been her "friend" in disguise.

I think it could have been her "friend" in disguise.

Could be I guess.

It is baffling to me as to why next to nothing has been done about Mark's murder in well over 35 years. The evidence, while circumstantial, is there.

This! There have been so many cases where people have been arrested, charged and convicted for a lot less. There is no doubt that Judy and her "friend" arranged for Mark's murder. By all accounts Mark was a nice, easy going guy. I wonder if he was gullible as well because it kinda sounds like Judy knew he could easily be taken advantage of, which is sad to say the least.

There is no one more guilty of a crime & gotten away with it than Judy Groezinger, other than Tim McClure.

Saw this case on IA today. I don’t know. The older I get the less I believe Judy did it. When I was a kid I thought for sure if Judy had a girlfriend she was clearly cheating on him and wanted him dead. But now as an adult who has been around I wonder if their relationship was open or polyamorous. Judy just didn’t want to admit it. She herself asked what she would have gained by killing Mark, was this question ever answered?

I also wonder why the gun was not recovered from this friend that Mark had given it to so it could be matched up. Did police not investigate any of Mark’s friends or coworkers? Was a bullet not recovered from Mark’s body? He was shot so many times surely there had to be one. I’m just at a loss as to why police couldn’t solve this case.

One other thing that bothers me is Mark’s gravesite. Judy’s name is still on the headstone after all these years. If they believed that Judy did this I can’t figure out why Mark’s family (if they own the site) would allow the name to stay.

I wonder several of the same things about Tim McClure. He failed a poly and such, was there just never enough evidence gathered to charge him with his mother’s death? We around here know well enough that sometimes lots of information was left out of UM segments. I’d love to see more modern day investigations done on these two cases.