I don't know if I've ever seen this issue addressed, but I would like to see comments on it. I would hope that this wouldn't go into another flaming war because this needs to be ironed out. IMHO

My question is:

Aside from the issue of not trading for large sets on a first trade...

What good is it to have someone send first and they send trash, and then you end up sending what you promised despite the fact that you didn't get the quality you were promised? (I'm not referring to unintentional gauging of quality.)

When you have someone else send first, aren't you responsible to send out your end of the deal if you get what you were promised? If you don't get what you were promised, then are you ultimately responsible to send what you agreed upon?

If this were the case, anyone could purposely send off trash, receiving pristine shows and not be responsible. If they sent, is that the end of their responsibility? (I think not.)

I think that there should be some sort of set standard about this type of thing, rather just going by what kind of mood a person is in at the time or what type of character they happen to have as a person.

(I'm not good at wording things, but I try.)

Thats a risk of trading, people's grades are subjective plus they lie sometimes too. If their quality is an unknown trade 1 disc.

Good question.

I was thinking last night that maybe we could come up with some type of definitive idea of quality and rating quality. Granted there would be a lot
of debate about the 8's to the 9's. but it's one of those things that
what you would say is a 8 i'd maybe say is a 9.

It might help with unconfusing people who are trading unintentional bad
quality sets and then people feeling they got screwed over.

ideas? Or does it suck

One thing I often do is ask what the quality of the shows are. Obviously, their definition of good may differ from mine, but I think if someone told me something was good quality & it turned out to be total crap, I'd tell them this (in a nice way) and send their discs back to them & cancel the trade. Now, this doesn't mean I wouldn't trade for a poor to good show, KNOWING it was poor to good, if I really wanted the show & hadn't seen a better quality copy offered elsewhere. But IMO, if you outline the specifics (hours & shows/eps each person is to send as well as the quality, then you receive total crap, IMO, they did not meet their end of the bargain & you are not obligated to send your side. (But if they're bad enough to call off the trade, I'd return the discs.)

Additionally, I know many (most?) people here use a scale of 1-10 to rank shows. It's really hard for me to assign quality that way - should this be a 7.5 or an 8??? (puzzled look) Or maybe a 7???? (getting headache) So I pretty much use 4 levels. Poor, good, very good & excellent (which I almost NEVER assign, but I do have a couple!) Sometimes I'll combine them like "X is poor to good" if it's hard for me to decide. I also note if the episode is incomplete or missing opening and/or closing credits.

I don't know if I've ever seen this issue addressed, but I would like to see comments on it. I would hope that this wouldn't go into another flaming war because this needs to be ironed out. IMHO

My question is:

Aside from the issue of not trading for large sets on a first trade...

What good is it to have someone send first and they send trash, and then you end up sending what you promised despite the fact that you didn't get the quality you were promised? (I'm not referring to unintentional gauging of quality.)

When you have someone else send first, aren't you responsible to send out your end of the deal if you get what you were promised? If you don't get what you were promised, then are you ultimately responsible to send what you agreed upon?

If this were the case, anyone could purposely send off trash, receiving pristine shows and not be responsible. If they sent, is that the end of their responsibility? (I think not.)

I think that there should be some sort of set standard about this type of thing, rather just going by what kind of mood a person is in at the time or what type of character they happen to have as a person.

(I'm not good at wording things, but I try.)



If it's someone who hasn;t established themselves as a good trader and the stuff they sent you is crap, you don;t send anything. If i receive something that is unwatchable, there is no way in hell I'm going to the Post Office to stand in line and send them something that's watchable-lol

there is no way in hell I'm going to the Post Office to stand in line

I didn't know people still did that..

I didn't know people still did that..


Why do you have to be a buttcrack?-lol You know damm well what I mean. Why would I go to the post office to mail someone a tape that has good quality if i got back sh*tty quality?

She wasn't slamming you. You misunderstood her utterly and completely.

She meant that she didn't know people still visited the post office, versus shipping directly from home. http://www.sitcomsonline.com/boards/images/smilies/ohno.gif

She wasn't slamming you. You misunderstood her utterly and completely.

She meant that she didn't know people still visited the post office, versus shipping directly from home. http://www.sitcomsonline.com/boards/images/smilie
s/ohno.gif


Ok then I apologize, I misunderstood. I guess someone would have to explain to me how to ship packages without going to the post office.-lol

Ok then I apologize, I misunderstood. I guess someone would have to explain to me how to ship packages without going to the post office.-lol

Easy. Click N Ship at USPS.com to print the label (Priority mail) or an accurate scale & the 'calculate postage' sheet you can print out on USPS.com & stamps of various denominations (purchased through the mail, too) for First Class. Then I put the package(s) in my mailbox for the postman to pick up. On the few occasions (for me) when I have a package that won't fit or more packages than will fit, I still do my own postage & then drop off the packages (w/o having to wait in line - because there's ALWAYS a line at my local PO) at either the post office or a UPS store. Sure beats taking a number, IMO. :)

this is my policy

when i deal with an unkown person

they need to send first

we agree on a quality and a certain amount of items

if that isnt in the package

ill return it at their expense

pure and simple


if for example half of it is the way it sould be, then ill return the other half,and my portion of the trade for that half

not the entire thing


if its not what was agreed on, then theres no way im going to send them the entire payment

Sometimes people do disagree as I am sure all of us know. one mans 8 is another mans 7 of 10... it happens. And I think most of us are understanding of that and after a few trades we learn how the other grades. BUT there are those out there who know stuff is bad and lie up front and tell u it is better and send it to you, and then jump all over you if u are not willing to trade for it. That is what irks me.

And another thing that is big time wrong, is people who claim a series is a complete series--- AND THEY KNOW THAT IT IS INCOMPLETE!
Now, Again, that happens to the best of us, I won't name names, but I know we all have passed a set to another believing it was complete and it turns out that it is short an episode or 2... IT IS EASY TO HAVE THAT HAPPEN especially with big sets! I try to check new sets against an episode guide, if I am not sure of the trader! BUT THERE ARE PEOPLE, I HAVE DEALT WITH RECENTLY who tell me a set is complete and it ends up missing like 10-20 episodes! And it turns out later that the person KNEW BEFORE HAND and just said, OH WELL..... when that happens, I think the person should not have to follow through on the trade unless the other party repalces the bad set FIRST!

Again, we all make mistakes and I have been wrong too.... BUT some traders INTENTIONALLY try to pull the wool over our eyes and then get mad at us when we are not willing to take it!

www.freewebs.com/nmboye

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Sometimes people do disagree as I am sure all of us know. one mans 8 is another mans 7 of 10... it happens. And I think most of us are understanding of that and after a few trades we learn how the other grades. BUT there are those out there who know stuff is bad and lie up front and tell u it is better and send it to you, and then jump all over you if u are not willing to trade for it. That is what irks me.

And another thing that is big time wrong, is people who claim a series is a complete series--- AND THEY KNOW THAT IT IS INCOMPLETE!
Now, Again, that happens to the best of us, I won't name names, but I know we all have passed a set to another believing it was complete and it turns out that it is short an episode or 2... IT IS EASY TO HAVE THAT HAPPEN especially with big sets! I try to check new sets against an episode guide, if I am not sure of the trader! BUT THERE ARE PEOPLE, I HAVE DEALT WITH RECENTLY who tell me a set is complete and it ends up missing like 10-20 episodes! And it turns out later that the person KNEW BEFORE HAND and just said, OH WELL..... when that happens, I think the person should not have to follow through on the trade unless the other party repalces the bad set FIRST!

Again, we all make mistakes and I have been wrong too.... BUT some traders INTENTIONALLY try to pull the wool over our eyes and then get mad at us when we are not willing to take it!

www.freewebs.com/nmboye

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
I let someone know what I want then ask for samples. Even if I know you or not...it's nothing personal but I am a hard grader, someone elses 8 maybe my 6.5-7 OR my 8 maybe someone elses 7-7.5 it's all in the eye of the beholder. What is a few minutes and .60 in postage to ensure you are getting something of equal quality?

samples

once again that makes very little warranty of quality, much like screen shots

first the person is going to send you the best disc there is

every set has a range of quality, unless its from a digital source

so thats mostly a waste

screen shots

i have seen a lot of screen shots that are from else where

recently there was one on this very site, that i am 100% sure wasnt from the set advertised

once again meaning very little in quality warranty


also on samples, i dont play that sending samples for free

i get gobs of requests for free samples

probably more than 50 from the same person

its peoples way to get some thing for free in a majority of cases

my very favorites are the ones like--can you send me a sample of hawaii 5-0 episode number 218 where ...........

its nice to think that sending a sample or a screen shot will be of help, but in actaul bottom line, it means very little

We shouldn't have to be told to "send what you promised anyway" because then what is the good of having "newbies send first"?

What bothers me most is that those that are staunch "no way am I gonna send" are looked upon as though they're ruthless or jerks, when the fact of the matter is that there should be some sort of standard for when you receive items that you were told would be otherwise.

(i.e. Over the years I've met some really cocky cops, but that doesn't mean they're in the wrong. They just come across badly.)

Anyone up to writing up the standard and hitting up the moderators for adding it to the Trading Post's policy?

samples do not really help out too much, i did that about 3 months ago with someone, he sent me a sample disc #1 of a 30 some odd set, it was ok, about 7.5-8 depending on who judged it so i agreed, but when the set came the first 10 discs are that good, but the next 20 were low 7 or 6.5
so then there i am in the same situation
do i take the crappy set i dont want now and cannot really use? it was not a rare set and i knew there were better out there....

:mad:

samples do not really help out too much, i did that about 3 months ago with someone, he sent me a sample disc #1 of a 30 some odd set, it was ok, about 7.5-8 depending on who judged it so i agreed, but when the set came the first 10 discs are that good, but the next 20 were low 7 or 6.5
so then there i am in the same situation
do i take the crappy set i dont want now and cannot really use? it was not a rare set and i knew there were better out there....

:mad:
trading is still not a certainty unless you trade with people you know well from previous trades. This was not an honest sample but a selective one. i.e. that person lied.

Really there is no true way to know a strangers quality without having that set in your hands. Trading is a risky hobby at times

I know if I get a sample disc, I'd really prefer to see the worst disc first. Then everything else is a pleasant surprise. :>

Quality is such a subjective thing and I don't find numbers particularly useful. I'd want to know what the source is, whether the show is cut or not, etc., and these are elements many traders don't factor into their ratings scales. For me, image and audio quality are only part of the story.

I've been trading since the late 1970s, but I'm am generally new to many of the online trading communities. I'm not a newbie, but I may be to a group, so I don't have a problem sending first, if that's agreed at the beginning. I do have a problem sending under the belief that the other person is sending at the same time, or has sent already, and they're actually waiting to get my parcel before sending. Until now, I've always had difficulty getting parcels going out of the US to the PO in a timely manner, because of my work schedule, so I've often been lagging behind on getting those packages out. But as of yesterday, my local PO is now open later during the week, and all day on Saturday, so sending packages where I have to go to the PO will be so much easier ...

I agree that if the package you receive does not meet the agreed-upon terms, you have the right to refuse the trade in whole or in part. I do think that the terms need to be stated very carefully up front though, because it could very easily happen that the next person you trade with could use that out to receive your discs, copy them, and ship them back claiming they aren't what was promised. It's a fine line. This is why many eBay sellers now post auctions with the proviso that they will not refund, they will only replace.

I know if I get a sample disc, I'd really prefer to see the worst disc first. Then everything else is a pleasant surprise. :>




I agree that if the package you receive does not meet the agreed-upon terms, you have the right to refuse the trade in whole or in part. I do think that the terms need to be stated very carefully up front though, because it could very easily happen that the next person you trade with could use that out to receive your discs, copy them, and ship them back claiming they aren't what was promised. It's a fine line. This is why many eBay sellers now post auctions with the proviso that they will not refund, they will only replace.

we all know that there are a certain number of just plain thieves in this hobby or any other one

the reason people put no returns on on ebay or ioffer is very easy to figure, its a video rental for free business if thats not the case,

people who are scammers, thieves, etc, buy something, copy it and try to return it for a variety of reasons

i have had people want to return sets ---because they didnt enjoy the show, like a month later, not that the show was poor quality, they didnt like the series

there is also a way around the no return policy, if a person pays with a good credit card, even through paypal, they can whine for no reason, and there will be a charge back from the credit card company

i have been hit with that about 4 times, and of course they need to leave nagative feedback first, then whine to paypal, which they loose out on, and then they file the credit card complaint,a nd they almsot always win that , paypal caves in

this is how i got most of my negative feedbacks, from freeloaders

thats the number two reason that so many video sellers dont take paypal, the number one reason is they want to steal your money and have no recourse for either no delivery or poor items

Loren here is another big problem with pay pal

INTERNATIONAL ORDERS

last month I had someone pay pal me $200 for some sets, i sent them, 3 weeks later they "never arrived" and they filed a pay pal complaint

WELL SINCE I HAVE TO PROVIDE PAY PAL TRACKING INFO
i had to resend the set GLOBAL EXPRESS FOR $42 in shipping b/c that was the ONLY WAY TO HAVE A TRACKING # to Europe that can be checked online, and 3 weeks later pay pal refunded them the $ any way!

WHY? when i asked them they told me that EVEN THOUGH THE TRACKING # shows delivered in the region and nation, it is NOT SPECIFIC Enough to use as verification--- so i am out the $200, the $10 REVERSAL FEE they charge me, the $42 in shipping, the $11 in airmail the first time, and 2 sets of 75 discs

I WILL NO LONGER TAKE PAY PAL OVERSEAS NO MATTER WHAT, i am out over $300 on the deal!

and the worst thing is I know the buyer got the set, most likely both sets for free

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

there is a whole site about people who have been messed over via pay pal

www.paypalwarning.com

AOL has it BLOCKED
aol users cannot access the site b/c of SECURITY ALERT
but i accesed it from friends house, lots of stories of people who got taken for a ride by someone using pay pal

i love pay pal but i try to get teh $ out the second it goes in JUST IN CASE and i do NOT have my bank acct info linked to pay pal

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

...last month I had someone pay pal me $200 for some sets, i sent them, 3 weeks later they "never arrived" and they filed a pay pal complaint...
Lamont,

Please do me a favor? Post that person's name or at LEAST email me with it???

We shouldn't have to be told to "send what you promised anyway" because then what is the good of having "newbies send first"?

What bothers me most is that those that are staunch "no way am I gonna send" are looked upon as though they're ruthless or jerks, when the fact of the matter is that there should be some sort of standard for when you receive items that you were told would be otherwise.

(i.e. Over the years I've met some really cocky cops, but that doesn't mean they're in the wrong. They just come across badly.)

Anyone up to writing up the standard and hitting up the moderators for adding it to the Trading Post's policy?

i have a detailed picture quality guage that i use to grade my shows i will post it below.hope it helps in some way

10/10 perfect (absolute pristine picture,the sort of quality you get from digitally restored movies)

9/10 :very good (standard dvd quality picture that you would get taping a show from tv straight onto dvd in sp.or buying a retail dvd from a reputable manufacturer)

8/10 :good (top quality vhs picture clearly defined with little/no blurrring of the image ,columbia house etc)

7/10 :good/fair (good quality vhs picture the sort you get from dubbing top quality master tapes to sp copies.slight blurring

6/10 :fair (acceptable quality vhs ,picture can still be easily defined but with slightly more blurring.pic may experience the odd jump )

:wave:

What about posting the list of quality ratings with a screen shot along with it to illustrate what is considered best quality 9-10, etc. Some people might just think they have a great quality show from the 80s when actually they have several generations down. I don't know, I just hate to think that people could rip you off intentionally. Guess I don't trade enough LOL. ;)

I think the unfortunate fact is that people who are honorable trade honorably - mistakes can be made, but good folks make good on stuff like that. If someone's going to rip you off, it doesn't matter how many samples, screen shots, grading scales, or small-scale trades happen, they're still going to rip you off when the spirit moves them.

It's sad. But, it does make you cherish the good folks in the hobby all the more. I feel very fortunate I've had as good luck as I have. Like everyone, I've been ripped off a few times, and by a couple of well-known, otherwise well-thought-of traders. But most of my trades have come through, and I've met some wonderful people in the process.

GOod idea.....Let me think of a way to add this..

I think the unfortunate fact is that people who are honorable trade honorably - mistakes can be made, but good folks make good on stuff like that. If someone's going to rip you off, it doesn't matter how many samples, screen shots, grading scales, or small-scale trades happen, they're still going to rip you off when the spirit moves them.

It's sad. But, it does make you cherish the good folks in the hobby all the more. I feel very fortunate I've had as good luck as I have. Like everyone, I've been ripped off a few times, and by a couple of well-known, otherwise well-thought-of traders. But most of my trades have come through, and I've met some wonderful people in the process.

this is a nice idea, but in reality will not solve anything

just recently there was a screen shot of a set on this very board, i also have the same exact set from the same exact person

there is 100% no way that the screen shot on the sitcoms board was from that same set that was being sold--traded

I think a universal grading system however. Might be an idea to consider.

Similar to the quality they compare selling on half.com for example as j. Cole pointed out.

Anyone can lie about a screen shot, but what I am suggestion is that some people consider different things different quality. And I am wondering if there is a way to find a common consideration for this.

The answers posted here are all well and good but getting away from what I'd intended with my initial post:

http://www.sitcomsonline.com/boards/showthread.php?p=2734045#post2734045

i.e. Just sending something in the mail does not mean that's the end of someone's responsibility (sending a supposed "complete" set that is NOT complete; grossly over estimating the quality of a set; etc.)

Whenever this issue has come up, people will tout "you promised to send, so send". But if that is the way we have to handle issues such as this, then people can purposely send their trash, knowing that members of this board will side with them, despite the lies.

Instead of telling members here that have a good reputation "you promised to send, so send", we need to give these members "permission" to not fulfill their end of an agreement when they've been sent an item that was not as promised.

I think a universal grading system however. Might be an idea to consider.

Similar to the quality they compare selling on half.com for example as j. Cole pointed out.

Anyone can lie about a screen shot, but what I am suggestion is that some people consider different things different quality. And I am wondering if there is a way to find a common consideration for this.


Possible solution:

A set doesn't get graded until several members have the discs in their posession and are able to come to a consensus rating.

Of course this will not help the people who get it first if the discs turn out to be poor.

there is always the talk about generation and speed, for grades on discs

im not from the era of vhs

i havent a clue what people are talking about

and yet i seem to get the grade thing done on a pretty fair basis


i agree there should be something that is standard


but to put that in place would be near impossible


i see people have the same set as that i do, and from the exact same source, and they rate my 7.5 as a 9

there are three sellers on ioffer that i see , that have my alice creation, and rate that as a 9 of 10, i say its 6-7, and im the one who dug it up and put it in circulation

i see examples of it every day

yes i would like to see a standard, but i have little hope for it

Well sometimes it is a question of experience

when i first started i graded too high, as i was new and not real sure about stuff

i have since adjusted my grading scales
and now i try to be cautious when rating and if someone asks i try to give as much detail info as possible

BUT there are those who have traded for years (MANY OF THEM ARE RAMPANT ON IOFFER) who rate everything an 8 of 9, and they KNOW BETTER

they are flat out liars
i have traded with some before and they are just scammers

PS i think that it should be the norm that if a newbie sends u a set that is either 1. Grossly lesser quality than they claimed, or 2. incomplete when claimed to be complete---
that you should NOT have to honor the deal, until they make it right

NOW I DO NOT MEAN when established traders have a disagreement on quality---b/cs one mans 8 is another mans 7--- I am talking about,like the example loren said, when some one sells or trades the ALICE Set which is about a 7 on my scale, a bit less on lorens, and claims it is a 9 of 10----- THEY KNOW IT IS NOT EVEN CLOSE and that is messed up

AND I DO NOT MEAN if it is a big set and an episode is missing, WE ALL MAKE MISTAKES< and NOW i try to check each set to be sure when i get it in (BUT I HAVE MISSED eps on sets in the past, and it bit me in the butt, so now i try to check them to be sure.... go to www.epguides.com, takes 5 minutes)

I have had people drag out a trade for 3 months, send me crap and get mad when i didnt think i should honor the original deal


AAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

I agree 100% that is my point.
Simply SENDING isn't going tobe the issue as you said. But peopel grade thigns different.

So I am trying to think of a way to facilitate such a system...

With so many opinions its a hard one.

I really do not think that any set of rules or standard will really help
b/c scammers always seem to find new tricks

#1 rule is KNOW WHO U R DEALING WITH

check em out, ask for LEGIT references

make them send first and tell them up front that if they send crap, u will not trade for it
or if at all possible, trade with people u know

and then u are at least 75% safe

ha ha

Okay...what about this.


What if I put together a list of 20 pictures. in my opinion of perfect to degrading quality.
And send it to those interested in judging a poll?

Lets say the first 100 being the top traders, the vetran traders and down the line.
IN other words, epople you guys all trust. (hopefully I am on that list)
Agent13, Loren Weeks, TDubell to name a few.



I put these pictures up- and you can all GRADE the pictures. And let the majority rule.

Will it be a perfect system? No.
But it would give at least a majority perspective guideline- and this can be realyl really helpful with new traders.

Since we have dvd to dvd, digital tv to dvd, vhs to dvd, vhs to vhs- ther are all sorts of grades out there.

I am not saying you shoudn't trust your judgement first, or even take a new traders face value.
BUT if you entered a trade with a vetran trader or one whom you did trust- this guide MIGHT be an idea of what you will be getting.

I am willing to put the work and effort, or have ehlp with this project.

I would post lets say around 20 images, and you can grade them, one by one. Ten being hte highest, 0ne being why bother.

And take lets say ten-5 as a trading guideline-
Save it as a sticky on a "quality guidelines post"
and in the future at least have a refrence point.

As I said this would be compiled of the highest traders, longest running, vetran traders- and so on- those whom have time and experience, but most of all trust on their opinion and the passing along of their quality.

Any ideas/ Complaints? Bad idea, feedback?


~Savage

my usual twisted view

i can play discs on my computer, and they can look far different than if they were played on a normal tv set

the computer has an xtra bright 19 inch sony lcd monitor, even trashy items are much better than on a regular tv

so my point is, take a small screen shot, view it on the nice high quality monitor, and this can be quite a difference from viewing on an average tv hookup, that the avearge person is going to be viewing them on

in my opinion, a single frame, dosnt do much for me

i get a lot better idea from dropping a disc on to my 60 inch philips monitor, if it holds up to that experiment, then i can get a very good idea of the content

i think thats why i grade tougher than most, im positive that if i only looked at things on my sony computer monitor, i would grade them at least one full level higher

I think this is a great idea savage. As far as grading the quality of the
episodes themselves It might give some clarification of what is the difference
between a 6 out of 10 and a 9 out of 10.

Grading for some people is different than other people. Right now for the most part I do quick and dirty menu systems. Opening screen, points to the episodes, put two to four episodes on disc (depending on size) and then
wallah, You have a set.

Some would say that the menus also have an an effect on the quality of
a product. to use an example. The Joker Batman set had awesome
graphics, menu system etc. I've seen others that were excellent. But
I don't think that they should be a huge factor in the judging of a quality
set. They might raise the quality up a half point or point. But overall
I'd rather have a premium copy of the movie itself with quick and dirty
menu system than a fantasic menu system and bad quality video etc.

The other thing that I would wonder would apply is the actual dated
of the material. There are some materials that are ultra rare. Aren't
seen very often and when they are, they end up being of so so quality.
(One of my sets I'm working on is a set of the show monsters. I got it
in a good trade. But some of the episodes are vhs captures that are
not very good. It's still overall a great set. But those episodes drop
it a few pieces.)

Overall I think that if we sit down and set a measure of an idea of what
is going to be a quality set and what is going to be an average set and get
lots of feedback. It might make things a lot easier on new traders to know
what they are getting.

Im with loren on this one, it is tough to grade an image on the computer b/c the resolution on most monitors is not set up like a tv and therefore the image is not the same

also brightness and colors are often not the same

and often a screen shot is harder to judge by than the whole disc

hmmmmmmmmm

Image isn't the only indicator of quality, IMHO. I've gotten into arguments on another board because I feel that if the source for the set is cut episodes, the quality rating should be downgraded. I was told, "Well, if we did that, then no one would be able to say they had 10 out of 10." Which would be my point, actually - if the source episodes are cut, then the set isn't a 10 out of 10. It's not perfect.

I don't care about menus, except that they be easy to use. I care about image quality, sound quality, completeness of the material. I know people who collect material because of guest stars, and if the material is cut and that low level guest star's scene is among the cut, the show is of no value to them. So edits can matter. I've seen 30 second cuts that completely changed the tone of the episode, so I don't buy "stations know what they're doing when they do their edits." I get an OCD twinge over missing end credits, but I live with that because sometimes I can't help it thanks to my local affiliates. But I want to know if material from the show is missing, and a rating claiming a 10 out of 10 for episodes captured off TVLand last week doesn't leave room for that.

I agree that the old VHS collectors' codes could be cumbersome, but they tended to touch on multiple points of quality guaging - generation, source, commercials intact or no, quality of image, quality of sound, even quality of transmission (i.e., weather alerts, etc.). Even so, in 27 years of trading, I've never found a grading scale that could be applied universally. I find a single number or letter to be too opaque a grade for it to be really meaningful for me as a trader, and I have no interest in using them. I've yet to create a set or see a set that I agreed was 10 out of 10 (or A+ or 5 out of 5 if that's your scale). It's not that I consider myself a hard grader, I just haven't seen all the elements present that would convince me that a set is perfect throughout in every way.

I think the group's suggestions to come up with a universal grading scale is good in that it will give the participants a common language as it were, but the fact is everyone participating in this conversation already act honorably in their trades. You still have the problem of the people who don't grade accurately or fairly.

That is the biggest point---
I mean if i get a set that JOKER authored himself, i know it is going to be GREAT!!!

Or if i get a set from LOREN listed as an 8
I KNOW IT IS GOING TO BE AN 8

most of the traders who have been here for a long time, know what they are talking about

THE PROBLEM IS GETTING the newbies and the scammers to hop on board, and I really, really doubt that will happen

The bottom line is, EVERY time u trade with someone that you do not know, you always take a gamble----

The Smart thing to do, is to gamble small and dont take much of a chance
until you know them

I shouldn't be one of the judges because I'm a lousy critic on quality... honestly.

A critic on honesty is more up my alley. LOL

The topic I brought up was more of an honesty issue than a quality issue. Like when someone sends stuff that they haven't checked to see if the set is complete and/or...

Or... set up a quality standard (Jason Cole's for example), as everyone seems to want to do, and hold people to it. I have been thinking that that is NOT what I meant, but maybe that will be the best option, especially for newbies. Like, warning newbies of the consequences of not checking out the quality guide before sending, etc. Do I make sense?

Also, after seeing so much garbage in trading circles lately, I'm seriously thinking that "newbie send first" ought to be a standard, too. That's the way I was treated when I started, and it didn't hurt me. At all costs, get the newbies to trade at first with those with a good reputation, and things will snowball for them... if they're legitimate traders and not rip-off artists with a new ID.

I find a single number or letter to be too opaque a grade for it to be really meaningful for me as a trader, and I have no interest in using them.
I echo that sentiment. The problem with a numerical-based grading system is that it leaves too many variables unaccounted for. If I see on a list that a show is graded 7/10, that means nothing to me, even if it's an accurate grade. I want to know WHY is it a 7/10? Is it because the source material was an EP copy of an EP speed master VHS tape? Or is it a direct off-broadcast recording to disc but the broadcast signal was poor? Or is it from a high quality source but recorded to disc at EP mode? Or is it from a 16mm film print that has degraded over time? Any of those things, and others not mentioned, could result in a show being graded 7/10, but the differences between them are huge.

I may be very interested in a 7/10 show if it’s from a 16mm print that has lots of red-tone in it, but would have no interest in it if it’s because the disc was made in EP mode. So the numbers themselves mean nothing, it’s the reason(s) for the numbers that matter.

The bottom line is that number-based grading systems do not give any pertinent, factual, information that a person can use to make a decision, they are simply someone else’s opinion. It’s hard to imagine a worse grading system than one based on opinion, since opinions not only differ by nature, but also by motive (i.e. dealers tend to grade more leniently than traders).

Facts are the only thing that matter and that is how I grade, e.g. “uncut, from off-digital satellite HG-VHS SP to DVD SP”. More long-winded, yes, but also precise and accurate: everybody knows, or has a good idea, what such a disc will look like. And if you get such a disc and it looks awful, you can take solace in knowing that you were flat-out lied to by an unscrupulous person instead of being frustrated over yet another “difference of opinion”. Obviously, no system or standard will help if a person is just going to lie.

So far as screen captures go, the limitation to them is that they don’t display motion and that is where a lot of the quality problems come in. I saw an ad, with screen shots that looked great, for that 77 disc Hawaii Five-0 set that’s floating around. When I got the first disc, I was appalled at how bad it looked whenever there was fast movement – huge pixelation blocks all over the place. In short, the pictures were not accurate reflections of the quality of the video when you sat down and watched it. They can have value if the issue is one of generational quality, but otherwise, they do not tell the story.

When u have someone say they will send first, and then like 3 months later, u get nothing, and no replies to emails, so then u make a deal to get it someplace else.......

and then lo and behold, the other person FINALLY sends it, but u dont need it now?

i had that happen 2 times with 2 sets, the person said theyd send out in a week, ok well a month later, i figure they are behind, b/c it is easy to get behind... so i email, and they say this week for sure,

weeks later, no reply, no dvds

so i just forget it and move on and get it elsewhere

then 2 months later i get a set i dont need or want anymore, and then
IM the total jerk b/c i wont trade for a set that is 3 months late and no emails in ages??????

WHAT DO U DO????

This is my point! You don't owe them if it's been that long AND they didn't communicate.

Personally, when I set up a trade, I set up a time limit.

For isntance.

"Hey I would really liek to get yoru Will and grace- seaosn 4. Are you open for trades.

If they say yes, I iron out the details, how many discs- and say what my approximate time is for my end to be shipped out and so on.
I ask them at that time.

If the time period has elapsed, and my end is ready and or their end hasn't come, I send them an email.
I usually allowe one full length of extra time.
IN example, if they originally said it woudl take them two weeks, I contact them after 2 weeks.
If another two weeks has gone by, I email them the second time and say perhaps I caught you at a bad time- Or something came up- regardless polite conduct usually would have dictated you contacting me to work something out by now.
Maybe we can try again in the future.
If my end is already made, I might be disgruntled, but I have been fairly lucky with unlaoed previous made sets.

And the few times this has happened, I have had the same user contact me the seocnd time, to try "again"

I require them to send first, and make nothing until it is received.

Once it is, I wipe the slate clean.
If they do the same thing, I don't bother trading them again.

I have been scorned for it, but that is my basic method.

I dont think your wrong for having some restrictions on time, and or patience whatsoever.

If someone takes that long to send, you'd think they'd have the sense to check with you first to see if you even need the stuff any more. It's a little different if someone is recording material off-air for you - that just takes as long as it takes (for example I have someone in Canada who's been recording Seeing Things for me for more than a year, and I get periodic packages with the next batch of tapes she's filled - I'm grateful she's kept track of the episodes that needed replacement and she's made the effort to get them on tape).

And Rob, I will have your material off to you next week - all the discs are ready except for the replacement Spy Game #5, which is on its way to me.

When u have someone say they will send first, and then like 3 months later, u get nothing, and no replies to emails, so then u make a deal to get it someplace else.......

and then lo and behold, the other person FINALLY sends it, but u dont need it now?
Always put a time-frame on your trades. That way if someone sends you something 3 months after the original time-frame, you're safe. That was not the deal you made and you have no responsibility to honor any deals other than the ones you explicitly agree to. If the other party doesn't like it, too bad for them, they're the ones that broke the terms of the deal and therefore are acting outside of any agreement between the two of you. The original deal ends when the initial time-frame passes and no goodies are in your hands, unless there is communication AND agreement otherwise. Just think of it as "breach of contract": after the breach, the rest of the contract is null and void. If the other party still wants to trade, and so do you, fresh negotiations can begin, again.

Interestingly enough, I'm in the midst of a contract law class, and Lazygrae's hit it on the head. Even if you don't settle on a specific time frame, there is the legal concept of "reasonable amount of time" which is basically what most people would consider to be reasonable. The contract is invalid if the other party doesn't meet their end of the deal within a reasonable period of time - if they send you the stuff after that period has elapsed, you have no obligation to perform your originally agreed-upon part of the contract, because the contract is void.

i know sometimes people get behind, that happens
happens to me sometimes too
but all u need to do is let someone know

i just hated those situations because i ended up sending back the sets at my expense, and to be honest, i didnt even think i owed them that, but i still did

Thanks Deb, to be honest i didnt put a set time, just assumed it would be a week or 2, maybe a month tops ( I KNOW IT CAN TAKE LONGER IF THE PERSON HAS ONLY A DVD RECORDER AND is transfering from VHS -- so i am not always in a rush) BUT it was pretty lousy for these 2 morons, to expect me to wait 3 + months for stuff with no emails or anything