http://apnews.excite.com/article/20050626/D8AVDSB00.html

TV Network for Gays, Lesbians to Debut

NEW YORK (AP) - The man who's molding Logo, the new network for gays and lesbians, grew up in rural Illinois, attended Oral Roberts University and counted that cheesy keyboard solo on "Freeze Frame" as his big moment during gigs with his college band the Ozones. At first glance, Brian Graden hardly seems too hip for the room.

But the 42-year-old Graden is one of television's busiest and most imaginative executives, already responsible for the programming on MTV, VH1 and CMT - and now Logo, which debuts Thursday.

Long in the works, Logo will initially be seen in about 10 million homes with digital cable. Unlike Here and Q, two pay-per-view, gay-oriented networks already operating, Logo will be available in homes that do not specifically order it.

Films such as "Kissing Jessica Stein" and "Philadelphia" and documentaries will fill many of Logo's first hours. The network also has a scripted series, "Noah's Arc," about a homosexual black man and his friends in Los Angeles, a reality series about opening a gay bar and the stand-up comedy series "Wisecrack."

A gay man himself, Graden had hoped to help out with Logo even before he was appointed its president.

Graden's job requires a comfort with Wall Street and Hollywood, two sides of his personality presaged by his educational choices. He went to Oral Roberts with fellow band members in an ill-fated attempt to keep the Ozones alive, then later earned an MBA from Harvard University.

Seeking an internship one summer, he wore his best suit to an interview with colorful TV executive Stephen Chao. Chao said he'd hire Graden as long as he never wore a tie again, and spent the interview quizzing the young man on what he watched on TV, the music he listened to, the movies he saw.

"I came to understand that that's the essence of what you're hiring, the essence of what matters," he said.

Graden now appoints teams at MTV Networks that are immersed in the lifestyles of the audiences they are trying to reach.

The launchpad for his career came when he befriended writers Trey Parker and Matt Stone, helping them to develop "South Park."

He moved to MTV in 1997, and was the executive behind a dizzying array of hits, including "The Osbournes,""Pimp My Ride,""Jackass," and "The Newlyweds." Graden has managed not only to stay on top of MTV's here-today, gone-tomorrow ethos but expand his authority to where he's put between 200 and 300 programs on the air.

"It's one of those things that's increasingly gratifying, to see an executive who truly approaches television from a creative point of view without ignoring the business of all of it," said television producer Michael Davies, whose credits include "Who Wants to Be a Millionaire."

A gently prodding phone call from Graden when he heard Davies was pitching an interesting show to another network recently resulted in VH1 getting the project - a late-night talk show still under development - when the other network backed off.

Every holiday season Graden sends to friends not only a card, but an exquisitely curated CD mix of songs. "He lives a creative life," Davies said.

It would be unusual to get country music fans, rappers and fans of Britney Spears or old Jackson Browne videos to agree on much of anything, yet Graden is the man overseeing the mix of networks that appeal to each one.

What's he doing running a country music channel, anyway?

"If you go home (to Hillsboro, Ill.) and visit my parents - not that I'd wish that on anyone - you would find CMT on 24 hours a day," he said. "My parents are finally proud of what I do because they watch CMT. Before, I don't think they understood what I do every day."

Logo may be his biggest challenge yet.

"I don't envy his position," said Paul Colichman, founder of Here, which offers primarily edgy material oriented to gays and lesbians in about 45 million homes.

"He's got competing constituencies," he said. "He's got advertisers who are fearful of offending anyone because they're going after mass groups of people. At the same time, he's got to create a service that is compelling to the gay and lesbian audience who wants to watch it. It kind of depends on their appetite for gay lite."

The decision to remake a Canadian series about planning a commitment ceremony, called "My Fabulous Gay Wedding," illustrates the fine line being walked. The Logo series is instead called "First Comes Love." The title wasn't changed to sidestep controversy, but rather to better reflect a show about relationships, a Logo spokesman said.

Graden said his job is to serve the target gay and lesbian audience and not worry about cultural critics who may look over his shoulder.

"That said, we've also said from early on that the standards for Logo will be that of a general entertainment network," he said. "The assumption that I would have to push certain standards to tell my story instead of yours I don't get, because they're all human stories."

Potential viewers have told Logo that it's important to reflect their community's diversity, he said. So there will be documentaries telling what it's like, for instance, to be a 22-year-old Latino homosexual or a lesbian couple that has been together for decades.

That's different from the other, sharply focused MTV networks; watch MTV and you know it's made for 21-year-olds. Even corporate cousin BET is more interested in young black viewers than the black audience as a whole.

"We're talking to an audience that has already felt that it has been excluded from the media tapestry for many years," Graden said. "It didn't feel right to create a channel where some people would feel further excluded."

Having a gay or lesbian in charge of Logo was essential, Colichman said. Quietly proud of the moment, Graden said it has symbolic and practical advantages. "It is important and powerful that you have both gay and lesbian voices directly in the conversation for the product you're trying to create because you're trying to serve an audience," he said. "We don't want any of our channels to look like a corporate man was handing down what he thinks an audience would like."

I think it's excellent that the gay and lesbian Americans are making their voices heard. They are honest, hard working, red blooded Americans like you and I.

I'm all for the gays, so I might watch and see. Some of my friends are gay and they are the best. Kudos to Viacom for trying to service the community.

They may be hard-working americans, but they are engaging in a lifestyle that is against
what god says and that is morally wrong.You do realize that some people here do have gay relatives and friends?

They may be hard-working americans, but they are engaging in a lifestyle that is against
what god says and that is morally wrong.

Not everyone believes in God. And besides, who are you to say what is right and what is wrong? And why should everyone have to live by what's morally right. Let's live life the way is was meant to be lived, fun and carefree.

You do realize that some people here do have gay relatives and friends?
Let alone some people here are gay.

guess what, webwarrior90210? the world DOES NOT revolve around christianity. i'm not saying god isn't real, but it's just one of thousands of different religious beliefs in the world. homosexual feelings are natural in the first place.

They may be hard-working americans, but they are engaging in a lifestyle that is against
what god says and that is morally wrong.


I don't give a damn what your "God says". He's not God if he discriminates against certain humans. I would never follow a "God" like that. :mad:

You do realize that some people here do have gay relatives and friends?


He doesn't care - take it from where its coming from! :rolleyes:

I thought GLAAD was a tv program. Or is it just an organization?

I thought GLAAD was a tv program. Or is it just an organization?
It's the organization for gays and lesbians.

It's the organization for gays and lesbians.
Ah.

It's the organization for gays and lesbians.

For the folks who don't know the acronym for GLAAD:
Gay & Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation (GLAAD).

Their website is here (http://www.glaad.org/index.php).

And I'm a big supporter of Lesbians and Gays. :)

They may be hard-working americans, but they are engaging in a lifestyle that is against
what god says and that is morally wrong.

If God was real, there wouldn't be this much crime, poverty, pollution, and ignorance in this world.

If God was real, there wouldn't be this much crime, poverty, pollution, and ignorance in this world.God is real. If more people followed His word there would be less crime and ignorance in this world.

God is real. If more people followed His word there would be less crime and ignorance in this world.

Then why don't he just snap his fingers and make everything right?

Channel 155 on Time Warner New York Digital Cable, for anyone in the Big Apple interested in checking it out.

They may be hard-working americans, but they are engaging in a lifestyle that is against
what god says and that is morally wrong.

:wallbang: :wallbang: :wallbang: :wallbang: :wallbang: :wallbang: :wallbang: :wallbang: :wallbang: :wallbang:

If God was real, there wouldn't be this much crime, poverty, pollution, and ignorance in this world.

God gave us free will. That is where the crime,pollution,and ignorance come from. Our choice. Not God's.

I don't see the problem with it, webwarrior. If we can have BET, then I'm sure there's room for a channel that targets gay and lesbian viewers.

Channels like Playboy and Spice have existed for years. I'd rather have my kid watch reruns of Will and Grace than some group orgy going on at the Playboy Mansion.

Webwarrior, your holier-than-thou bull**** is getting completely out of line and I personally have no problem telling you, once and for all, to shut your god damn mouth and keep it stapled closed!

If God was real, there wouldn't be this much crime, poverty, pollution, and ignorance in this world.
It's we who cause those things, not god.

Webwarrior, your holier-than-thou bull**** is getting completely out of line and I personally have no problem telling you, once and for all, to shut your god damn mouth and keep it stapled closed!Everyone should be entitled to their opinion without being attacked. Besides it wasn't as bad as some of the stuff he said before.

God gave us free will. That is where the crime,pollution,and ignorance come from. Our choice. Not God's.I agree

I don't see the problem with it, If we can have BET, then I'm sure there's room for a channel that targets gay and lesbian viewers.


A channel like BET wouldn't even exist if cable TV (as we know it today) been around and thriving in the 1960's. It would've been against the law.

So if African Americans have the right to enjoy BET, Gays and Lesbians have the same right to enjoy the new service called "Logo". More power to them!! :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock: :rock:


God gave us free will. That is where the crime,pollution,and ignorance come from. Our choice. Not God's.


What you're telling us it's our choice to steal, lie, cheat, commit bodily harm, commit acts of terror and being stupid all rolled into one, that's why God gave us crimes to commit? You must be crazy! :crazy:

Everyone should be entitled to their opinion without being attacked. Besides it wasn't as bad as some of the stuff he said before.

Yeah - I gotta agree with this one. I know how you feel, but at the same time, we KNOW he's going to post stuff like this and I sometimes feel it IS for all the attention - good or bad. He knows he's not changing anyone's opinions, nor will we his I'm sure.

We can disagree, but should try to stay away from the personal attacks.

Webwarrior, your holier-than-thou bull**** is getting completely out of line and I personally have no problem telling you, once and for all, to shut your god damn mouth and keep it stapled closed!

:nod:

Yeah - I gotta agree with this one. I know how you feel, but at the same time, we KNOW he's going to post stuff like this and I sometimes feel it IS for all the attention - good or bad. He knows he's not changing anyone's opinions, nor will we his I'm sure.

We can disagree, but should try to stay away from the personal attacks.

I think the point is that webwarrior already posted his thoughts on homosexuality in one thread and people got upset so why do it again if he knows it is gonna stir up trouble? I have my own beliefs and my own morals but I don't need to constantly shove them in people's faces.

Everyone should be entitled to their opinion without being attacked. Besides it wasn't as bad as some of the stuff he said before.
Straw that broke this camel's back.

Hey - I know guys - I'm with you, but we're the ones that end up getting warned because the majority are in opposition to his views so it appears we're ganging up on him. I swear he does it as a form of passive aggressiveness or reverse psychology!

At least his type of views ARE in the minority here.....for that we can be thankful!

Note to webwarrior - we know exactly what your views are - no need to keep repeating them in "gay" themed threads - it always seems to hijack the thread into a religious topic, which I think I can speak for many, we're just tired of. Thanks.

Canada has a hardcore 24 hour gay porn channel called Maleflixxx Television. You'll have to Google it up, as I'm probably not allowed to post the link to it. ;) PrideVision was the world's first gay and Lesbian channel that debuted in Canada back in 2001. :)

They may be hard-working americans, but they are engaging in a lifestyle that is against
what god says and that is morally wrong.

why don't you just come on out. The way you fuss about anything GLBT oriented, yet have a "sissified" taste in tv and movies makes me wonder if you're really a closet queen and you feel like insulting gays because maybe the more you try to disown it, you think the closer it'll convert you to heterosexuality.

Just say it :"I like men and you're the one with the problem if you can't handle it". If you come out and just admit it you'll be a much less bitter person

I don't give a damn what your "God says". He's not God if he discriminates against certain humans. I would never follow a "God" like that. :mad:

same here. The best part are the "Christians" who actually do claim they believe God made people gay... YET gays and lesbians are going to hell. What kind of god would make people just so he can damn them? It's not the God I believe in I must say

God is real. If more people followed His word there would be less crime and ignorance in this world.

well, being anti-gay is something I'd constitute as "ignorance". People don't have the slightest clue what being gay is like and then try to come and tell us exactly what we think and that we "made" this choice to defy God, that my friend is ignorance too.

Webwarrior, your holier-than-thou bull**** is getting completely out of line and I personally have no problem telling you, once and for all, to shut your god damn mouth and keep it stapled closed!

very true, how many times do we need to see "as opposed to homosexuality as I am" or "AIDS is Gods way of punishing gays" from you know who whenever a thread about homosexuality is posted. I actually don't believe for one second he is heterosexual myself

What you're telling us it's our choice to steal, lie, cheat, commit bodily harm, commit acts of terror and being stupid all rolled into one, that's why God gave us crimes to commit? You must be crazy! :crazy:[/QUOTE]

He gave us free will. We make the choice to do what we feel is right. God didn't give us crime,we created it .I don't understand what is so hard to comprehend about it?

God is real. If more people followed His word there would be less crime and ignorance in this world.But what about people who claim to have followed His Word and have ended up hurting others and spread ignorance anyway? :confused:

What you're telling us it's our choice to steal, lie, cheat, commit bodily harm, commit acts of terror and being stupid all rolled into one, that's why God gave us crimes to commit? You must be crazy! :crazy:
uh, god didn't make the law, we did. of course there are the ten commandments, but they weren't given to us to be broken (as you imply with crimes), they were given to us because he wants the world to be that way. :rolleyes:

Everyone on this site has a right to their opinions. If webwarrior or anyone feels that homosexuality is morally wrong and goes against his religious beliefs, he's entitled to post that.

There's no law on this site that says everyone has to agree with homosexuality. Debating with him is within the rules, but no personal attacks.

Everyone on this site has a right to their opinions. If webwarrior or anyone feels that homosexuality is morally wrong and goes against his religious beliefs, he's entitled to post that.

There's no law on this site that says everyone has to agree with homosexuality. Debating with him is within the rules, but no personal attacks.

well, but the thing is, you know what they say about the people who are so obsessed with homosexuality they won't shut up about it.... they're usually the people who are gay themselves but just afraid to come out

And I don't think "religious beliefs" is a valid excuse. TripperFan is straight and Christian as well, but she is rather pro-gay and doesn't believe in any of the "***s burn in hell" bull**** that people like Webby spews. You can be Christian and tolerant, some people just like to back their religion up as an excuse.

But what about people who claim to have followed His Word and have ended up hurting others and spread ignorance anyway? :confused:
because sin is very real too

They may be hard-working americans, but they are engaging in a lifestyle that is against
what god says and that is morally wrong.
webwarrior, while I respect your opinion, I have to wonder if you think this is the best way of presenting it. As a Christian, it is our goal in life to spread the word of Christ to those who do not know Him, and to be more like Jesus. Do you honestly think people in these "immoral" lifestyles will suddenly change because of the some what short and rude remarks you sometimes make? Jesus sat and ate with the sinners in order to show them His love before He showed them God's word. If you honestly feel that God has layed it on your heart to change people's way, maybe you should spend even MORE time in prayer and re-evaluate how you are doing it.

And that should be God with a big G not a little g.

well, but the thing is, you know what they say about the people who are so obsessed with homosexuality they won't shut up about it.... they're usually the people who are gay themselves but just afraid to come out

And I don't think "religious beliefs" is a valid excuse. TripperFan is straight and Christian as well, but she is rather pro-gay and doesn't believe in any of the "***s burn in hell" bull**** that people like Webby spews. You can be Christian and tolerant, some people just like to back their religion up as an excuse.
I don't think webwarrior is obsessed with homosexuality. He simply states his opinion on the matter, and that doesn't mean he's gay. He's entitled to his opinion. If he crossed the line and started bashing gays, I'd be the first one to put a stop to it.

I'm straight, Christian and have no problem with gays. I do realize that people have other views. In webwarrior's case, he cites religious beliefs. I believe him because I don't know him to be a liar.

I also don't recall him stating that ***s should burn in hell.

You can't change people. Not everyone is on board with homosexuality, and they have a right to their opinion.

God is real. If more people followed His word there would be less crime and ignorance in this world.
I don't know if God is real, and with that being said...if he is, there's supposed to be **** going on like that or there wouldn't be heaven.

I don't give a damn what your "God says". He's not God if he discriminates against certain humans. I would never follow a "God" like that. :mad:
I totally agree. If God doesn't accept everyone, then forget this religion. But I think that if HE"S out there, HE does.

I totally agree. If God doesn't accept everyone, then forget this religion. But I think that if HE"S out there, HE does.


Perfectly said - you put that exactly as I feel it. Hope you don't mind if I use it somewhere down the line when we go through this discussion again for the 5,438th time. ;)

I am so sick and tired of people getting bashed because they don't agree with homosexuality. Immediately, they are labeled "gay bashers." Truth be told, in my opinion, homosexuality is wrong. If it wasn't, then both males and females would be able to concieve children. I don't condemn the sinner, I condemn the sin. While a Christian cannot judge another whether they are going to Heaven or Hell, they are allowed to point out the sin. God gave us all free will. Homosexuality is free will. For those that argue that it is not, to me are saying they were born that way and can't control themselves. That also tells me that deep down they don't want to be gay, they just can't control their feelings. I could be wrong on that, but as a Christian, I know homosexuality is a sin. For those who immediately show anger when someone disagrees with them is making excuses why homosexuality is right. It is a sin, but despite that God still loves you. He punishes no one.

Perfectly said - you put that exactly as I feel it. Hope you don't mind if I use it somewhere down the line when we go through this discussion again for the 5,438th time. ;)
ahaha, sure.

I am so sick and tired of people getting bashed because they don't agree with homosexuality. Immediately, they are labeled "gay bashers." Truth be told, in my opinion, homosexuality is wrong. If it wasn't, then both males and females would be able to concieve children. I don't condemn the sinner, I condemn the sin. While a Christian cannot judge another whether they are going to Heaven or Hell, they are allowed to point out the sin. God gave us all free will. Homosexuality is free will. For those that argue that it is not, to me are saying they were born that way and can't control themselves. That also tells me that deep down they don't want to be gay, they just can't control their feelings. I could be wrong on that, but as a Christian, I know homosexuality is a sin. For those who immediately show anger when someone disagrees with them is making excuses why homosexuality is right. It is a sin, but despite that God still loves you. He punishes no one.


Homosexuality is NOT free will. I can say this from experience because I have a sister who is a lesbian and has been for many years.

Also, people who think that homosexuality is all choice and is "unnatural" I have a Dear Abby article on the subject, which was printed last month.

DEAR ABBY: In a recent column you advised the mother of a girl who had confided that she is gay and wants to come out, that homosexuality has "nothing to do with parenting and everything to do with genetics." You need to retract that statement. If you do not publicly admit your error, I will know you are a mouthpiece for the gay and lesbian crowd. -- LEONARD IN LYNCHBURG DEAR LEONARD: If I did not believe with all my heart that what I wrote is true, I wouldn't have put my thoughts on paper. Homosexuality is simply a variant of sexual orientation. Those who claim it is "unnatural" should direct their attention to Dr. Joan Roughgarden, a biologist at Stanford University with a Ph.D. from Harvard, who states that more than 300 vertebrate species have been found to practice homosexuality. (A visit to any zoo might confirm it.) And while one gene may not be responsible for this variant, Italian researcher Andrea Camperio-Ciani of the University of Padua notes that research findings point to there being more than one "gay gene," and that the genetic factors linked to homosexuality in men are also linked to increased fertility in women.

I stand by my reply.

Keep in mind I'm not trying to tell you that homosexuality is right. I'm pointing out that it is not free will and that there are scientific facts that prove it.

I am so sick and tired of people getting bashed because they don't agree with homosexuality. Immediately, they are labeled "gay bashers." Truth be told, in my opinion, homosexuality is wrong. If it wasn't, then both males and females would be able to concieve children. I don't condemn the sinner, I condemn the sin. While a Christian cannot judge another whether they are going to Heaven or Hell, they are allowed to point out the sin. God gave us all free will. Homosexuality is free will. For those that argue that it is not, to me are saying they were born that way and can't control themselves. That also tells me that deep down they don't want to be gay, they just can't control their feelings. I could be wrong on that, but as a Christian, I know homosexuality is a sin. For those who immediately show anger when someone disagrees with them is making excuses why homosexuality is right. It is a sin, but despite that God still loves you. He punishes no one.

That's not what I'm saying Brian. It's how it's put out there sometimes in the form of hatred and judgement. This might be different if homosexuals weren't being beaten or murdered for this. This is why people seem to lash back - when its presented as it is sometimes. Remember, the bible also teaches that he who is WITHOUT sin may cast the first stone. Since we're all sinners for something in our lives, and homosexuals "cannot control it", then they should not be centred out and judged anymore than anyone else.

If we had been talking about a new religious channel, homosexuality would never have come into the discussion - it just seems on every thread I've seen here that mentions homosexuality, it ends up becoming a religious discussion on what is right and wrong. Can't we just discuss the fact that there is going to be a channel for gays just as there are several for religious shows. We're aware of the members who disagree with it and that's fine, but please, don't hijack the threads all the time. Live and let live - and turn the other cheek.

That's not what I'm saying Brian. It's how it's put out there sometimes in the form of hatred and judgement. This might be different if homosexuals weren't being beaten or murdered for this. This is why people seem to lash back - when its presented as it is sometimes. Remember, the bible also teaches that he who is WITHOUT sin may cast the first stone. Since we're all sinners for something in our lives, and homosexuals "cannot control it", then they should not be centred out and judged anymore than anyone else.

If we had been talking about a new religious channel, homosexuality would never have come into the discussion - it just seems on every thread I've seen here that mentions homosexuality, it ends up becoming a religious discussion on what is right and wrong. Can't we just discuss the fact that there is going to be a channel for gays just as there are several for religious shows. We're aware of the members who disagree with it and that's fine, but please, don't hijack the threads all the time. Live and let live - and turn the other cheek.


I'm done, I just had to get my post out. http://www.sitcomsonline.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

I'm done, I just had to get my post out. http://www.sitcomsonline.com/ubb/biggrin.gif


Oops - sorry - meant Brian D.! I was still typing my post when you put yours up - hadn't seen ya there yet! ;) :lol:

So in other words, if homosexuality is a "choice" and not something inborn and innate, then all people who identify themselves as gay are simply people who haven't learned to appreciate the charms of the opposite sex. It could be easier to change them than the Pepsi Challenge: "Would a taste of hellfire
make you like the ladies??" And if homosexuality is a choice, then does that mean WE HETEROS might....:idea: :grineyes:

Oops - sorry - meant Brian D.! I was still typing my post when you put yours up - hadn't seen ya there yet! ;) :lol:


I knew you were talking to him. I didn't want to divert the topic any further. :lol:

So in other words, if homosexuality is a "choice" and not something inborn and innate, then all people who identify themselves as gay are simply people who haven't learned to appreciate the charms of the opposite sex. It could be easier to change them than the Pepsi Challenge: "Would a taste of hellfire
make you like the ladies??" And if homosexuality is a choice, then does that mean WE HETEROS might....:idea: :grineyes:


Hey - how do ya think the "Down Low" got started!! :lol:

As a Christian, it is our goal in life to spread the word of Christ to those who do not know Him, and to be more like Jesus.

Well, Jesus Christ was neither a homosexual nor a heterosexual. So, can we assume, that maybe, just maybe we shouldn't be reproducing?

I am so sick and tired of people getting bashed because they don't agree with homosexuality. Immediately, they are labeled "gay bashers." Truth be told, in my opinion, homosexuality is wrong. If it wasn't, then both males and females would be able to concieve children. I don't condemn the sinner, I condemn the sin. While a Christian cannot judge another whether they are going to Heaven or Hell, they are allowed to point out the sin. God gave us all free will. Homosexuality is free will. For those that argue that it is not, to me are saying they were born that way and can't control themselves. That also tells me that deep down they don't want to be gay, they just can't control their feelings. I could be wrong on that, but as a Christian, I know homosexuality is a sin. For those who immediately show anger when someone disagrees with them is making excuses why homosexuality is right. It is a sin, but despite that God still loves you. He punishes no one.

why must everything be about procreation? If I was straight, I know damn well I still wouldn't want to get a woman pregnant, why? I don't want kids

I just don't see why and how being gay is a choice. Looking back, I had gay traits as young as preschool (I remember wanting to be Blair on The Facts Of Life and then Madonna) and I can remember thinking guys were cute when I was SIX years old. It's not something I chose but it was something I just was. I spent some of my adolescent years being homophobic as hell but it was because I was insecure about.

I do believe that Webwarrior IS a gay basher. There is a vast difference between "I don't agree with homosexuality, and I don't understand it" and "breast cancer is God's punishment to Melissa Etheridge for her deviant lifestyle". If someone just said "I don't agree with homosexuality", it's one thing, another thing when one spews hateful comments like "they belong in hell" and "they deserve AIDS" when people attack.

Everyone on this site has a right to their opinions. If webwarrior or anyone feels that homosexuality is morally wrong and goes against his religious beliefs, he's entitled to post that.

There's no law on this site that says everyone has to agree with homosexuality. Debating with him is within the rules, but no personal attacks.
although i argued with his post, i was thinking it was unfair that he was attacked for it and told to shut the **** up. yes, he's a homophobe, but save the insults for when he bashes homosexuals themselves. (that last part isn't supposed to sound like some moral valuable lesson, just so you know).

That's not what I'm saying Brian. It's how it's put out there sometimes in the form of hatred and judgement. This might be different if homosexuals weren't being beaten or murdered for this. This is why people seem to lash back - when its presented as it is sometimes. Remember, the bible also teaches that he who is WITHOUT sin may cast the first stone. Since we're all sinners for something in our lives, and homosexuals "cannot control it", then they should not be centred out and judged anymore than anyone else.

If we had been talking about a new religious channel, homosexuality would never have come into the discussion - it just seems on every thread I've seen here that mentions homosexuality, it ends up becoming a religious discussion on what is right and wrong. Can't we just discuss the fact that there is going to be a channel for gays just as there are several for religious shows. We're aware of the members who disagree with it and that's fine, but please, don't hijack the threads all the time. Live and let live - and turn the other cheek.

I agree with that. Gay people have died for BEING who they air. Whereas gaybashers have never been beaten or murdered for their ignorance, that's the difference.

I also am sick of the "religion vs. homosexuality" deal. Some people seem to think it's an alien concept that somebody can both accept Christ AND be attracted to the same sex. What you ARE shouldn't condemn you, just because you have the sexual attraction to members of the same sex doesn't mean you don't believe in Christ.

Some of the really brimstoneesque "Christians" don't realize that "you're going to hell for being a ***, you deserve AIDS" is only gonna alienate people from the religion. I know gay men who hate all things religion thanks to these people

Well, Jesus Christ was neither a homosexual nor a heterosexual. So, can we assume, that maybe, just maybe we shouldn't be reproducing?



Geez - don't say THAT!!! Afterall, that describes Michael Jackson too!! :eek:

Well, the truth hurts.

Oh, two more things. Elvis Presley is evil because he swung his hips.

And dancing is evil too.

Be right back, I'm going to go play some music backwards so I can go find out if there are any satantic, demonic messages.

And AIDS is a punishment from God for being too promiscuous.

:rolleyes:

**** you, Jerry Falwell.

I'm sorry, but everytime I hear the homosexual argument, I usually think of him.

Hey, Jerry, when was the last time you were God????

I am so sick and tired of people getting bashed because they don't agree with homosexuality. Immediately, they are labeled "gay bashers." Truth be told, in my opinion, homosexuality is wrong. If it wasn't, then both males and females would be able to concieve children. I don't condemn the sinner, I condemn the sin. While a Christian cannot judge another whether they are going to Heaven or Hell, they are allowed to point out the sin. God gave us all free will. Homosexuality is free will. For those that argue that it is not, to me are saying they were born that way and can't control themselves. That also tells me that deep down they don't want to be gay, they just can't control their feelings. I could be wrong on that, but as a Christian, I know homosexuality is a sin. For those who immediately show anger when someone disagrees with them is making excuses why homosexuality is right. It is a sin, but despite that God still loves you. He punishes no one.
I've learned not to get aggravated by people simply thinking that homosexual behavior is wrong (just as long as they accept homosexuals), but if you think that being attracted to someone of the opposite sex is a choice, you're wrong. being attracted to other people, whether you're straight or gay, is natural. you can't force yourself to like or not like anyone. there have been MANY suicides by gay people ashamed of their sexuality; if they could change, they would. i'm straight, but i've had gay friends and every gay person i've met has said they didn't choose to be that way.

not trying to argue, just making that clear.

I'm no doctor and I said I could be wrong on the subject. Of course we are all sinners. Nobody is perfect, but that doesn't mean we can't call out the sin. Religion comes out in these topics because for a Christian, homosexuality is taught to us as being wrong. As for hijacking this thread, I didn't start the topic, nor did start the sub discussions after that. When it has to do with God, alot of people would rather they shut up and not hear another perspective on things.

I'm no doctor and I said I could be wrong on the subject. Of course we are all sinners. Nobody is perfect, but that doesn't mean we can't call out the sin. Religion comes out in these topics because for a Christian, homosexuality is taught to us as being wrong. As for hijacking this thread, I didn't start the topic, nor did start the sub discussions after that. When it has to do with God, alot of people would rather they shut up and not hear another perspective on things.

Sorry - I should have made that clear - I didn't mean that you had hijacked the thread - I know it started long before your post - its just it always does get hijacked to a totally different discussion that what was originally intended every time - and usually by the same one or two people - not you tho.

I just don't see the Christians going into threads about other topics which are also considered sins - the gays seem to be centred out more.

I apologize for the misunderstanding on my side and I also apologize for speaking so candidly about homosexuality. I'm not perfect and I am not without sin, I just feel christians are taking a beating on these threads just as bad as the gays.

I apologize for the misunderstanding on my side and I also apologize for speaking so candidly about homosexuality. I'm not perfect and I am not without sin, I just feel christians are taking a beating on these threads just as bad as the gays.


;) How 'bout a totally separate forum where we can go nuts on each other there with those big "nerf" type bats! We've just got to all promise not to bring it in to other threads after that! :lol: Seriously - we do only end up bashing both groups before we're all through and seem to get nowhere.

You're cool Bri - I'll always like you. :wave:

;) You're cool Bri - I'll always like you. :wave:


back at ya!

I apologize for the misunderstanding on my side and I also apologize for speaking so candidly about homosexuality. I'm not perfect and I am not without sin, I just feel christians are taking a beating on these threads just as bad as the gays.I am a Christian who accepts gays. I don't feel like I'm taking a beating here.

well, about the channel alone: I think people get so tightly wound up thinking if something is gay-oriented, it's going to be filthy.

Remember the people who were all freaking out over "Tickled Pink" on TV Land? being all "TV Land has gotten dirty and immoral", and then the special really was nothing more than a few token gay and lesbian celebrities (and the straight people on the shows) talking about how much they love watching The Golden Girls, Bewitched, Jeannie, Dynasty and Wonder Woman, if this was the most offensive thing even on television that day, then I would consider TV to be much better than it is. But however, some people are so opposed to the idea of homosexuality that seeing a gay man talking about how much he loved Bewitched is more offensive than all the sex and violence shows that pollute the airwaves. I'm not British but I think that's rubbish!!

And yes, I do agree that Queer As Folk is way too vulgar, but I am surprised if somebody is offended by Will And Grace. W&G is basically a less funny carbon copy of Seinfeld except where the male characters are gay, nothign more, nothing less. No politics or religious discussions, just four self-involved New Yorkers, two of which just happen to be gay. I can't see how anyone can find the show "offensive" because it's nothing more than a Seinfeld clone (however, Seinfeld was funny, W&G relies on guest stars to draw attention).

I know what you mean John, I've tried from the beginning to get into Will and Grace, and I do like it, but it's not one that I "run" to watch. I'll watch it if nothing else is on. And if anything, it's more the Karen character that puts me off. I know she's supposed to be irritating, and she IS! :lol:

I've never seen Queer as Folk - just never got around to it. I did enjoy Queer Eye for the Straight Guy in its first season, but can't say I've watched it this year - just other stuff on, and it does get to the point where you've seen one of those shows, you've seen them all.

I'm sure I'll pop in and give a few shows a try just to see what they're putting on. Just nice that there's now a channel available for basically everyone! :) (And the best part, if you don't like it, you can always pick up the remote and change the channel).

I am a Christian who accepts gays. I don't feel like I'm taking a beating here.

If you are a christian that doesn't accept the lifestyle, you are.

Why is it that there has to be an all gay and lesbian channel? Why does there have to be an all black channel,all mexican channel, all martian channel? I understand having channels that reach to s certain interest like sports, action, love stories. But why does it have to be broken down into race and lifestyles? There is enough stress when it comes to these subjects as it is. As much talk as there is about trying to bring people together it always seems like it being split more apart.

Why is it that there has to be an all gay and lesbian channel? Why does there have to be an all black channel,all mexican channel, all martian channel? I understand having channels that reach to s certain interest like sports, action, love stories. But why does it have to be broken down into race and lifestyles? There is enough stress when it comes to these subjects as it is. As much talk as there is about trying to bring people together it always seems like it being split more apart.

I know what you mean - as a matter of fact, they were debating just that topic on a local morning show yesterday. Canada is VERY multicultural - rather than immigrants expected to conform to our culture, our government encourages the diversity in each group. We have tons of channels and radio stations here that cater to minority groups. At first there was resistance, but now its just accepted and celebrated even. We hold a "Caravan" each summer in Toronto where you can go around to different restaurants and clubs to sample foods, music and dance from different cultures.
In the long run, I think its brought us closer together. Now that we know where some of their traditions come from, we're not as apt to be discriminatory or bigoted about it.
The channels give them a place to go where they know they'll see something to do with their culture and heritage. Its a place for the rest of us to go to discover it. If we don't want to see it, then we just don't go to that channel. I think more people would be upset if the channels were blended really.
(and I hope all that made sense since I'm rushing and not double-checking my grammar - on my way out the door to an interview.....)

I'm just so sick and tired of people who are NOT me, telling ME how I feel and how I am what I am.

Being attracting to someone of your sex is NOT the same as being attracted to a morning cup of coffee at 9 AM! Why can't people just accept the living testimonies of REAL people and stop refusing to believe them over ink on pages in a book? Do we know who even wrote the bible? As far as we know, someone in the year 3463 BC could have been a complete prude who wanted the future generations to believe exactly what he or she believed so they created this book to scare people into doing everything THEY wanted them to do it.

I'm sorry, but I'll make my own decisions. I don't need some book to tell me what to do and what not to do. God'll decide what to do with me when I die, I suppose, and if I burn in hell, I don't care. I'd rather burn with my freedom than live with outrageous restraints.

I'm just so sick and tired of people who are NOT me, telling ME how I feel and how I am what I am.

Being attracting to someone of your sex is NOT the same as being attracted to a morning cup of coffee at 9 AM! Why can't people just accept the living testimonies of REAL people and stop refusing to believe them over ink on pages in a book? Do we know who even wrote the bible? As far as we know, someone in the year 3463 BC could have been a complete prude who wanted the future generations to believe exactly what he or she believed so they created this book to scare people into doing everything THEY wanted them to do it.

I'm sorry, but I'll make my own decisions. I don't need some book to tell me what to do and what not to do. God'll decide what to do with me when I die, I suppose, and if I burn in hell, I don't care. I'd rather burn with my freedom than live with outrageous restraints.

AMEN!!!

God is real. If more people followed His word there would be less crime and ignorance in this world.


I totally agree. Jesus was for love, compassion, acceptance, and forgiveness, not hatred and intolerance. Certain people need to read the Bible a little more carefully. It says right in the Gospel of Matthew, "Do not judge, lest you be judged."

Personally, I think what two consenting adults do in the bedroom is none of my business. There are a lot worse things in this world than a person who loves an adult of the same gender.

If you are a christian that doesn't accept the lifestyle, you are.

maybe gays are sick and tired of brimstone Christians (there's a difference) telling gays on and on that we deserve to get AIDS and that we're going to hell. Those people have merited getting bashed back after everything they have done to us.

Anyways, why is it that Christian women can be more accepting that gays are people too? Men seem to have this "gay is sick because it's emasculating" deal while a lot of women can accept Christ and accept gays and lesbians. I notice it a lot on here, I see many women who are "I worship Christ and I am all for gay rights" while the majority of Christian males are "you ***s are all sick perverted AIDS ridden homos who are going to hell". Why is it that women have the tendency to be more openminded to things that they aren't?

maybe gays are sick and tired of brimstone Christians (there's a difference) telling gays on and on that we deserve to get AIDS and that we're going to hell. Those people have merited getting bashed back after everything they have done to us.

Anyways, why is it that Christian women can be more accepting that gays are people too? Men seem to have this "gay is sick because it's emasculating" deal while a lot of women can accept Christ and accept gays and lesbians. I notice it a lot on here, I see many women who are "I worship Christ and I am all for gay rights" while the majority of Christian males are "you ***s are all sick perverted AIDS ridden homos who are going to hell". Why is it that women have the tendency to be more openminded to things that they aren't?

I am Christian (with little to no more remaining faith), and I am male, and I accept gays and lesbians as just other people. If you are gay or lesbian, that's great! I'm not one to hold people back.

I don't accept this whole religion vs. homosexuality "war".

So-called Christians who don't know the first thing about God have made sure to let gays and lesbians know we're not welcome. These people think every gay and lesbian went to an initiation ceremony and went "yes, I am going to subscribe to the homosexual lifestyle and I hereby renounce God and all things pure". WHAT BULL!!! Most gays and lesbians can tell you they had the feelings since they were in grade school. People have twisted and mended The Bible to their own train of thought. Did you know that Jewish people find eating pork more offensive than sleeping with the same sex? Yet, I'd say more people have eaten something from a pig than are gay. Did you know THE SAME BIBLE forbids football, yet the "Christians" who will picket anything gay-related and wants us all to die from AIDS and go to hell most likely are watching the Super Bowl.

I think people twist religion around as their excuse to defend being intolerant and non-understanding of gays and lesbians. They don't understand why one would have desires for the same sex, because they have a one-track mind that because being attracted to the same sex is "normal" for them, they assume that it's that way for EVERYBODY, so it's easier to write us off as evil sinning heathens instead of studying up about the human mind. Remember, it wasn't even forty years ago when "mixing of races is against God's plan, the world's going to go straight to hell if we accept seeing whites and blacks together in a relationship" was spewing from the exact same mouths who are picketing funerals of dead gay people telling their mothers "your son is with Satan now". **** THOSE PEOPLE!!! I don't think what they're doing is exactly "in God's plan" either.

Anyways, I know plenty of people who are both gay and accept Christ, it is NOT an oxymoron. Why can't someone follow Jesus just because he or she just happens to be drawn to the same sex? Should every gay man and lesbian became an Athiest or join something like Wicca? Anyways, I don't think the "Christians" who do nothing but spew how we all deserve AIDS don't realize they are actually alienating people from the church. I even know STRAIGHT people who have turned their backs on organized religion thanks to "good men" like Falwell, Robertson and Phelps, and will refuse to have their kids become Christians... because they've seen the narrowmindedness. Hell, I have a gay friend who is all "I'm so sorry for you" just because I still go to church, because the "***s go to hell and die of AIDS" types have completely destroyed any desire he had to belong to an organized religion.

As a whole, the human race is really pretty stupid. We put too much time, effort, and money, into religions that do nothing but push us around and tell us what to do and what not to do. We spend too much time believing in something that just plain and simple is not there. If God was a truly loving God, he or she would accept people of all walks of life, and not condemn them just because they don't happen to be straight.

As a whole, the human race is really pretty stupid. We put too much time, effort, and money, into religions that do nothing but push us around and tell us what to do and what not to do. We spend too much time believing in something that's just plain and simple not there. If God was a truly loving God, he or she would accept people of all walks of life, and not condemn them just because they don't happen to be straight.

exactly, I think a lot more goes into a person as opposed to "is he gay or straight?". I think sexuality is too defining, because being gay or straight doesn't automatically mean you're either a good person or a bad person. You can be a homosexual and almost be saint-like and you can be a heterosexual and be the most disgusting despicable specimen to walk the face of the earth. I don't necessarily think at the pearly gates, "are you a heterosexual?", "yes" = entrance to heaven, "are you a homosexual?", "yes" = button pushed and fall into the pits of hell. It's not so black and white

God'll decide what to do with me when I die, I suppose, and if I burn in hell, I don't care. I'd rather burn with my freedom than live with outrageous restraints.





If you burn in hell for loving someone, then God is ****ed up. Isn't that what God wants anyways? Wants his children to love than hate and not to judge people for who they are?

I went to the Logo Network website, and my cable company isn't adding the channel yet. But I looked at some of the shows they are going to air and they don't look like they are worth watching.

If you burn in hell for loving someone, then God is ****ed up. Isn't that what God wants anyways? Wants his children to love than hate and not to judge people for who they are?

I went to the Logo Network website, and my cable company isn't adding the channel yet. But I looked at some of the shows they are going to air and they don't look like they are worth watching.

I agree with both. LOVE when it's between two CONSENTING ADULTS is a bad thing?

Why is it that there has to be an all gay and lesbian channel? Why does there have to be an all black channel,all mexican channel, all martian channel? I understand having channels that reach to s certain interest like sports, action, love stories. But why does it have to be broken down into race and lifestyles? There is enough stress when it comes to these subjects as it is. As much talk as there is about trying to bring people together it always seems like it being split more apart.
Um..... There are channels for hispanics because of the Spanish language. Not all understand English that live in America, personally I think you should be fluent in a countries main language before you actually move there. But whatever. It's for the language, not for the race.

Though I do not see a point in a channel for gays, what will the channel have? Aren't there only a couple shows that have to do with gay people? And they are on other networks. Like how Lifetime has to do with stuff towards women, I can see interest in that kind of thing... but a channel for a sexuality? Lammmmee.

Um..... There are channels for hispanics because of the Spanish language. Not all understand English that live in America, personally I think you should be fluent in a countries main language before you actually move there. But whatever. It's for the language, not for the race.

Though I do not see a point in a channel for gays, what will the channel have? Aren't there only a couple shows that have to do with gay people? And they are on other networks. Like how Lifetime has to do with stuff towards women, I can see interest in that kind of thing... but a channel for a sexuality? Lammmmee.

why is it lame? Homophobes have made it perfectly obvious that they don't want gay visibility on their networks. Notice the people who complain about Queer As Folk and Queer Eye even tho they have other options to watch. So let gays have their own network. Straight people have proven time and time again that they aren't going to open their minds and appreciate diverse things because they don't understand that not guys are turned on by T&A, so let the gays have their network. Tho the same people who complain about those shows will complain that gays have their own network because gays are supposed to be miserable and not have anything to enjoy (I know homophobes who hate Desperate Housewives FOR THE SOLE REASON THAT GAY MEN ENJOY IT!!!).

why is it lame? Homophobes have made it perfectly obvious that they don't want gay visibility on their networks. Notice the people who complain about Queer As Folk and Queer Eye even tho they have other options to watch. So let gays have their own network. Straight people have proven time and time again that they aren't going to open their minds and appreciate diverse things because they don't understand that not guys are turned on by T&A, so let the gays have their network. Tho the same people who complain about those shows will complain that gays have their own network because gays are supposed to be miserable and not have anything to enjoy (I know homophobes who hate Desperate Housewives FOR THE SOLE REASON THAT GAY MEN ENJOY IT!!!).
Well, then they'll just have to deal with those shows on networks they like anyway. Why make it better for prejudice people?

Religion comes out in these topics because for a Christian, homosexuality is taught to us as being wrong.

Not all Christians. It may have been taught to you as being wrong, but not all Christians.

Always believing everything you're taught makes you learn nothing on your own; it's simply brainwash.

As a whole, the human race is really pretty stupid.
i agree. people are my least favorite species. i hate them all equally. :)

Not all Christians. It may have been taught to you as being wrong, but not all Christians.

Always believing everything you're taught makes you learn nothing on your own; it's simply brainwash.


Read the bible and come to your own conclusions. I am not brainwashed, I have always felt homosexuality was wrong. As a "Christian" as you claim to be, do you attend church regularly? Do you read the bible? People will interpret the Bible however they feel is convienient for them. I worship God, not an imaginary friend. God is real. I do not hate gays nor do I feel threatened by them. God loves everyone. Whether you are gay, straight, Bi, whether you cheat on your wife, murder another, rape another. All of them. You just have to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and saviour. I cannot condemn anyone to hell because I am not God. Gays are allowed in church and should go to church. This isn't a gay thing, it's something everyone should do. Some gays on this board get furious when someone disagrees with their lifestyle. Please distinguish tolerance for bias. I am tolerant of gays, but I don't agree with their lifestyle.

Read the bible and come to your own conclusions. I am not brainwashed, I have always felt homosexuality was wrong. As a "Christian" as you claim to be, do you attend church regularly? Do you read the bible? People will interpret the Bible however they feel is convienient for them. I worship God, not an imaginary friend. God is real. I do not hate gays nor do I feel threatened by them. God loves everyone. Whether you are gay, straight, Bi, whether you cheat on your wife, murder another, rape another. All of them. You just have to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and saviour. I cannot condemn anyone to hell because I am not God. Gays are allowed in church and should go to church. This isn't a gay thing, it's something everyone should do. Some gays on this board get furious when someone disagrees with their lifestyle. Please distinguish tolerance for bias. I am tolerant of gays, but I don't agree with their lifestyle.

well, reading your post, you aren't the type of Christian who should be offended by that. You don't agree with being gay, but yet you aren't throwing bricks or condemning that gays and lesbians should go to hell, nor are you going to funerals of gay men and picketing and yelling "your ****** son's in hell now!!!" to their mothers.

There are many, many, many Christians (althought they are maybe only 2% of the community, kinda like people like Michael Moore give Democrats a bad name and Rush Limbaugh to Republicans... even tho those types are only like 1-2% of the parties) who will use God's name as an excuse to say that all gays and lesbians are going to hell, that "God hates ***s" (there's even a so-called "Christian" website called this) and that "AIDS is God's punishment to homosexuals for their ways". Those are the type of people that are being attacked when people attack "Christians" who are gay-bashers.

It's the likes of Pat Robertson and Fred Phelps that people are pointing at when they talk about how ignorant and hatefilled Christians could be, and the sad thing is that that very small percentage of the Christian population has soured the entire concept to many people. It's sad really. I have a close friend who gives me hell for going to church, because "how can you be gay and go to church considering how they want you to burn in hell".

well, reading your post, you aren't the type of Christian who should be offended by that. You don't agree with being gay, but yet you aren't throwing bricks or condemning that gays and lesbians should go to hell, nor are you going to funerals of gay men and picketing and yelling "your ****** son's in hell now!!!" to their mothers.

There are many, many, many Christians (althought they are maybe only 2% of the community, kinda like people like Michael Moore give Democrats a bad name and Rush Limbaugh to Republicans... even tho those types are only like 1-2% of the parties) who will use God's name as an excuse to say that all gays and lesbians are going to hell, that "God hates ***s" (there's even a so-called "Christian" website called this) and that "AIDS is God's punishment to homosexuals for their ways". Those are the type of people that are being attacked when people attack "Christians" who are gay-bashers.

It's the likes of Pat Robertson and Fred Phelps that people are pointing at when they talk about how ignorant and hatefilled Christians could be, and the sad thing is that that very small percentage of the Christian population has soured the entire concept to many people. It's sad really. I have a close friend who gives me hell for going to church, because "how can you be gay and go to church considering how they want you to burn in hell".

Why do you even worry about how people think? You seem pretty secure in who you are. Go on about your business and let them deal with the situation. I, personaly, am against homosexuality. I think it's a sin and will be dealt with in the afterlife. That being said I hold no grudges towards gay people anymore than I would with anyone else. It all depends how people treat each other. I have known some really good gay people just like I have known some really good black, white, yellow, green....people. I don't try and push my lifestyle on anyone just like I would hope that no one will try to push theirs on me. As far as the TV shows, like I said earlier, it just stinks that everything has to be "a black channel, a gay channel, a spanish channel.." Once again WE have to break it down into race or lifestyle. So much for coming together.

well, reading your post, you aren't the type of Christian who should be offended by that. You don't agree with being gay, but yet you aren't throwing bricks or condemning that gays and lesbians should go to hell, nor are you going to funerals of gay men and picketing and yelling "your ****** son's in hell now!!!" to their mothers.

There are many, many, many Christians (althought they are maybe only 2% of the community, kinda like people like Michael Moore give Democrats a bad name and Rush Limbaugh to Republicans... even tho those types are only like 1-2% of the parties) who will use God's name as an excuse to say that all gays and lesbians are going to hell, that "God hates ***s" (there's even a so-called "Christian" website called this) and that "AIDS is God's punishment to homosexuals for their ways". Those are the type of people that are being attacked when people attack "Christians" who are gay-bashers.

It's the likes of Pat Robertson and Fred Phelps that people are pointing at when they talk about how ignorant and hatefilled Christians could be, and the sad thing is that that very small percentage of the Christian population has soured the entire concept to many people. It's sad really. I have a close friend who gives me hell for going to church, because "how can you be gay and go to church considering how they want you to burn in hell".

I understand where you are coming from, but also understand that those people are radicals, much like terrorists are radicals of the muslim religion. Those Christian radicals are in the minority. Believe me, a true man or woman of God knows that Aids is not punishment for gays. It is ignorant thinking, because God does not punish anyone. He gave us free will to make our own decisions, so punishment for our sins is non-existant on this earth. What God wants is love and tolerance no matter who you are.

The whole free will thing. So God gives Adam and Eve free will before Adam eats from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Of God is omniscient, omnipresent, prophetic and such, don't you think God knew that Adam was going to COMMIT that SIN before it happened?

The whole free will thing. So God gives Adam and Eve free will before Adam eats from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Of God is omniscient, omnipresent, prophetic and such, don't you think God knew that Adam was going to COMMIT that SIN before it happened?

Yes he knows everything. It is also called free will.

How can prophecy and free will coexist?

I'm not saying it does, I'm just saying how can it? It comes off to my human brain as a paradox.

Because of what we understand, the definition of prophecy is a set of events that are structured in a certain manner to take place. Where does the free will come in?

Prophecy is just seeing the events before they happen. Free will is what caused the sin to see that event take place.

Prophecy is just seeing the events before they happen. Free will is what caused the sin to see that event take place.

Yeah, but Prophecy is still a preordained outcome that will occur in the future.

This is WAY too confusing.

Yeah, but Prophecy is still a preordained outcome that will occur in the future.

This is WAY too confusing.Actually, prophecy was a little bit more than mere soothsaying or fortune-telling. In the Old Testament, it was God's statement to people in power and the followers who were listening, that if certain things were not done to promote compassion and justice, then such and such catastrophes would happen to a ruler's kingdom. A prophecy was conditional, judgement would not fall on the powerful if certain conditions were met, such as treating citizens, especially the poor and disenfranchised, fairly. If a king or ruler continued in the ways of corruption and cruelty, then God would punish them.

Read the bible and come to your own conclusions. I am not brainwashed, I have always felt homosexuality was wrong. As a "Christian" as you claim to be, do you attend church regularly? Do you read the bible?

Not only do I attend church every Sunday, but I also work there as well. I do not read the bible, because I've heard it all before. I would prefer it if you didn't put "Christian" in quotes like that, suggesting that I'm not. Even if I were to attend church and read the bible everyday of my life, it makes me no better and no worse than those who have never read the bible and have never been to church. The only thing you need to be a Christian is to believe Jesus was/is the son of God. Aside from that, everything else is trivial.


About prophecy and free will: I'd like to think that a prophecy does not exist.... otherwise God has a lot of explaining to do.

Why do you even worry about how people think? You seem pretty secure in who you are. Go on about your business and let them deal with the situation. I, personaly, am against homosexuality. I think it's a sin and will be dealt with in the afterlife. That being said I hold no grudges towards gay people anymore than I would with anyone else. It all depends how people treat each other. I have known some really good gay people just like I have known some really good black, white, yellow, green....people. I don't try and push my lifestyle on anyone just like I would hope that no one will try to push theirs on me. As far as the TV shows, like I said earlier, it just stinks that everything has to be "a black channel, a gay channel, a spanish channel.." Once again WE have to break it down into race or lifestyle. So much for coming together.
A SPANISH CHANNEL IS FOR THE LANGUAGE, NOT EVERYBODY IN AMERICA SPEAKS ENGLISH!

A SPANISH CHANNEL IS FOR THE LANGUAGE, NOT EVERYBODY IN AMERICA SPEAKS ENGLISH!


Exactly - we have SEVERAL French speaking channels here. There's at least one Chinese (in both Mandarin and Cantonese), a Portuguese, an Italian and even an Inuit language channel. On Saturday mornings most stations are carrying shows catering to East Indians, Malaysians and other middle eastern or Asian cultures. It's no big deal. There's still plenty of entertainment for English speaking people too. That's what free airwaves should be doing - putting out a little something for everyone.

A SPANISH CHANNEL IS FOR THE LANGUAGE, NOT EVERYBODY IN AMERICA SPEAKS ENGLISH!


You are apparently unable to understand the example. Take out the spanish channel and then maybe you'll be able to understand it better. :rolleyes:

You are apparently unable to understand the example. Take out the spanish channel and then maybe you'll be able to understand it better. :rolleyes:
You are apparently unable to understand that the channels are for foreigners who do not fluently speak English. Stop saying Mexican channels then, _____.


:rolleyes:

You are apparently unable to understand the example. Take out the spanish channel and then maybe you'll be able to understand it better. :rolleyes:

I don't agree Bobby - its not television programming that is pulling people apart. I wish it were that simple.

Bigotry is taught - whether it be by parents, schools, churchs (sorry - no offense intended - all religions teach some form to some degree). I used to have this very argument with my own parents. It took my mother years to realize that I was right. Once she did, she was able to change a lot of her views and died a much happier person for it.

I'm not going to like black or gay people any less because they have "their own" channel. I don't even consider it their own! I watch a lot of stuff on BET - if its an interesting show - I'm going to watch it. Just because I became an adult didn't stop me from tuning in to the Cartoon Network sometimes! ;)

I don't agree Bobby - its not television programming that is pulling people apart. I wish it were that simple.

Bigotry is taught - whether it be by parents, schools, churchs (sorry - no offense intended - all religions teach some form to some degree). I used to have this very argument with my own parents. It took my mother years to realize that I was right. Once she did, she was able to change a lot of her views and died a much happier person for it.

I'm not going to like black or gay people any less because they have "their own" channel. I don't even consider it their own! I watch a lot of stuff on BET - if its an interesting show - I'm going to watch it. Just because I became an adult didn't stop me from tuning in to the Cartoon Network sometimes! ;)I agree with you. Channels like BET and Telemundo are for people to see their culture and they welcome people not of their culture to view their shows. BBC has channels for each region of Britain, one for Wales and on for Scotland.

I don't agree Bobby - its not television programming that is pulling people apart. I wish it were that simple.

Bigotry is taught - whether it be by parents, schools, churchs (sorry - no offense intended - all religions teach some form to some degree). I used to have this very argument with my own parents. It took my mother years to realize that I was right. Once she did, she was able to change a lot of her views and died a much happier person for it.

I'm not going to like black or gay people any less because they have "their own" channel. I don't even consider it their own! I watch a lot of stuff on BET - if its an interesting show - I'm going to watch it. Just because I became an adult didn't stop me from tuning in to the Cartoon Network sometimes! ;)


I agree that it's not just television. My point is this is just one more thing that has to be separated because of race or a lifestyle. The Cartoon Network is a speciality channel just like ESPN. They are based on peoples likes not on their race or how they live their life.

Im all for a Gay//Lesbian channel....now maybe we can have Showcase back! :lol:

I agree that it's not just television. My point is this is just one more thing that has to be separated because of race or a lifestyle. The Cartoon Network is a speciality channel just like ESPN. They are based on peoples likes not on their race or how they live their life.


Oh ya, I agree with you there. Hopefully someday we all will get to that point. I've seen it though over the years. More and more ethnic faces are appearing in mainstream t.v., but it will take some time I guess.

Oh ya, I agree with you there. Hopefully someday we all will get to that point. I've seen it though over the years. More and more ethnic faces are appearing in mainstream t.v., but it will take some time I guess.


Glad to see it took 14 days for you finally realize I was right! :D :D :D If you women would just except what we say as law there would never be any stress between the sexes. :D

Glad to see it took 14 days for you finally realize I was right! :D :D :D If you women would just except what we say as law there would never be any stress between the sexes. :D


Oh bite me! I lost track of the thread o.k.!! :p


You MEN!! :snob:






:lol:

Oh bite me! I lost track of the thread o.k.!! :p


You MEN!! :snob:






:lol:

I love it when they talk dirty! :grineyes:

I love it when they talk dirty! :grineyes:
:lol:

You ain't seen nothin'!

:lol:

You ain't seen nothin'!


I'm waiting. :whistle: Typical woman. Get us guys all worked up and nothing!! :D

I'm waiting. :whistle: Typical woman. Get us guys all worked up and nothing!! :D


ahhhh - not worth it when it takes 2 hours to get ready for 2 mins. 37 sec. of actual fun. :p

I demand an Ashlee network.

ahhhh - not worth it when it takes 2 hours to get ready for 2 mins. 37 sec. of actual fun. :p


Heeeey now. That's getting kinda touchy there! We can't help it it takes us plus a pack of "D-Batteries" for ya'll. :D We got ours!!!!

I demand an Ashlee network.


There's enough of 'em around to quantify one. ;)

There's enough of 'em around to quantify one. ;)
Exactly. There's three Ashlee's in the whole world. The Simpson ho, and another member and myself here at SO. The rest are Ashley. But ef them. Conformists.

I demand an Ashlee network.
I demand a Halloween network.

I want a HEAVY METAL network!!!! :rock: :guitar: :guitar: :rock:

I want a HEAVY METAL network!!!! :rock: :guitar: :guitar: :rock:

Take your pic, MTV, MTV2, VH1, VH1 Classic.

I demand a Halloween network.


Hey - those should be in the Halloween thread!!! :eek:


Besides, wouldn't MSNBC cover that? ;)

Hey Cathie and Buffy, cool to see my friends can out-argue anyone! ;)

Read the bible and come to your own conclusions. I am not brainwashed, I have always felt homosexuality was wrong. As a "Christian" as you claim to be, do you attend church regularly? Do you read the bible? People will interpret the Bible however they feel is convienient for them. I worship God, not an imaginary friend. God is real. I do not hate gays nor do I feel threatened by them. God loves everyone. Whether you are gay, straight, Bi, whether you cheat on your wife, murder another, rape another. All of them. You just have to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and saviour. I cannot condemn anyone to hell because I am not God. Gays are allowed in church and should go to church. This isn't a gay thing, it's something everyone should do. Some gays on this board get furious when someone disagrees with their lifestyle. Please distinguish tolerance for bias. I am tolerant of gays, but I don't agree with their lifestyle.

I'm a bit confused here... so you're saying that homosexuality is wrong because of the bible? Because, the bible also condemns a whole slew of other things that are considered 100% acceptable by Christianity. There is also now a Christian denomination (that has always been supportive of gays/lesbians) that will be performing gay marriages. You say that people will interpret the bible for however is "convenient" for them. Does that mean that we should all assume that you are interpreting the bible your own way just so you can condemn homosexuality? I may be mistaken, but the way I understood that comment.. you are implying that some people are interpreting the bible as to not be against homosexuality, so that what they are doing won't be considered a sin. Now, like I said, I may be mistaken.

I have had a Catholic education my whole life. I think that homosexuality is not a sin. I think that homosexual marriages should be performed in the church. A great deal of other younger Catholics/Christians have the same opinion as I do. We are both tolerant AND accepting of the lifestyle. Just because one is Christian and is accepting of homosexuality, doesn't mean they haven't read the bible, or don't go to church. We are just as Christian as you are.

For everyone using Scripture to condemn homosexuality:

Deuteronomy 22:13-21: If it is discovered that the bride is not a virgin, the Bible demands she be executed by stoning immediately.

Deuteronomy 22:22: If a married person has sex with someone else's husband or wife, the Bible commands that both adulterers be stoned to death.

Mark10:1-10: Divorce is strictly forbidden in both Testaments, as is remarriage of anyone who has been divorced.

Leviticus 18:19: The Bible forbids a married couple from having sexual intercourse during a woman's period. If they disobey, both shall be executed.

Mark 12:18-27: If a man dies childless, his widow is ordered by Biblical law to have intercourse with each of his brothers in turn until she bears her deceased husband a male heir.

Deuteronomy 25 11-12: If a man gets into a fight with another man and his wife seeks to rescue her husband by grabbing the enemy's genitals, her hand shall be cut off and no pity shall be shown her.

IT'S IN THE BIBLE, FOLKS!!!!! :read:

For those who accuse gays of being "Sodomites":

Ezekiel 16:48-49: This is the sin of Sodom; she and her suburbs had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not help or encourage the poor and needy. They were arrogant and this was abominable in the eyes of God.

http://www.soulforce.org/whatthebiblesays.pdf

:lol: To me, those are not metal.

VH1 Classic may have some metal, but none of the others do. Hell, MTV barely has music, period.

For those who accuse gays of being "Sodomites":

Ezekiel 16:48-49: This is the sin of Sodom; she and her suburbs had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not help or encourage the poor and needy. They were arrogant and this was abominable in the eyes of God.

http://www.soulforce.org/whatthebiblesays.pdf

Thank you for that link!

people need to understand the difference between the Old testament and the New one

Im not sure how a gay network thread turned into " should gays marry" but, heres my take on THAT.... Because gay marriage isnt legal in some places, if one gay partner dies and the other has no legal status as spouse, the surviving partner can be found to have no rights to the properties accumulated by both of them during their time together. in other words the surviving partner can lose a house and all the possessions that were jointly owned if the dead partner's family claims them...is THAT fair? Gays have as much right to their partnership rights as anyone ( and no, im NOT gay , I just feel this is the right thing )

For everyone using Scripture to condemn homosexuality:

Deuteronomy 22:13-21: If it is discovered that the bride is not a virgin, the Bible demands she be executed by stoning immediately.

Deuteronomy 22:22: If a married person has sex with someone else's husband or wife, the Bible commands that both adulterers be stoned to death.

Mark10:1-10: Divorce is strictly forbidden in both Testaments, as is remarriage of anyone who has been divorced.

Leviticus 18:19: The Bible forbids a married couple from having sexual intercourse during a woman's period. If they disobey, both shall be executed.

Mark 12:18-27: If a man dies childless, his widow is ordered by Biblical law to have intercourse with each of his brothers in turn until she bears her deceased husband a male heir.

Deuteronomy 25 11-12: If a man gets into a fight with another man and his wife seeks to rescue her husband by grabbing the enemy's genitals, her hand shall be cut off and no pity shall be shown her.

IT'S IN THE BIBLE, FOLKS!!!!! :read:

:clap


Funny I should come across this thread again tonight. I was scanning the local small town newspaper earlier today under Letters To The Editor. Some man wrote in citing the same stuff about Christian issues and how the Bible says it's wrong - but then couldn't believe his ignorance when he didn't cite certain passages - but referred to the 10 Commandments!!!!!!!
I don't know my Bible all that well, but I sure can't remember anything about Thou Shalt Not Marry Thy Same Sex anywhere in those ten. He shot himself in the foot trying that argument. If you're going to argue against it, at least know exactly WHY!! :lol:

Which, while we're at it - one of the commandments is "Remember to keep holy the Lord's Day." (albeit worded slightly different depending on the variation of the religion). So how do you legitimize the government ruling that stores can be open and people can work during that day. Seems to me like picking and choosing which commandment and/or Bible passage you like or dislike.

It would be so much easier on everyone, if everyone would just be an atheist.

You don't need faith in God to be a good person.

It would be so much easier on everyone, if everyone would just be an atheist.

You don't need faith in God to be a good person.True, but some issues and questions about life are a little deeper than accepting atheism out of convenience.

It would be so much easier on everyone, if everyone would just be an atheist.

You don't need faith in God to be a good person.

Yes, you don't need faith in God to be a good person. But a lot of times, faith in God helps a lot of people to become better people, or to guide their life in a better direction. If everyone was an athiest just to be convenient, then the world, and life, would be a whoooooooole lot more different (in a bad way) than you think.

It's kind of a "be careful what you wish for" type deal I think...

Sooo... I believe you have a choice to believe in God or not, but I also believe that if everyone was an athiest, the world would be a lot different in a bad way.

Yes, you don't need faith in God to be a good person. But a lot of times, faith in God helps a lot of people to become better people, or to guide their life in a better direction. If everyone was an athiest just to be convenient, then the world, and life, would be a whoooooooole lot more different (in a bad way) than you think.

It's kind of a "be careful what you wish for" type deal I think...

Sooo... I believe you have a choice to believe in God or not, but I also believe that if everyone was an athiest, the world would be a lot different in a bad way.I also think that when a person says they don't believe in God, then I'm thinking of what kind of God are they not believing in. If I said that I don't believe in a big giant guy in the sky with a silvery robe and a ZZ Top-style beard who goes around casting spells on "bad" people, then that would make me a "atheist".

Did you know that early Christians in ancient Rome were considered "atheists" for not believing that Caesar was a god?

GOD DOES NOT DISCRIMINATE AGAINS ANYBODY, INCLUDING HOMOSEXUALS.
Jesus offers salvation to all, gay or straight.
the Bible calls on us not to hate somebody because they are gay.
homosexuality is in the eyes of God the same as all other sins, because a person is a sinner if they have even committed one "itty bitty sin" like a "white lie".
God hates ALL sin the same!

GOD DOES NOT DISCRIMINATE AGAINS ANYBODY, INCLUDING HOMOSEXUALS.
Jesus offers salvation to all, gay or straight.
the Bible calls on us not to hate somebody because they are gay.
homosexuality is in the eyes of God the same as all other sins, because a person is a sinner if they have even committed one "itty bitty sin" like a "white lie".
God hates ALL sin the same!
AMEN!!!!!!! AMEN!!!!!! ALLEJUHAH!!!!!! Thank you. And on behalf of my teen daughter who is lesbian, thanks to all the posters who have an open mind, even if you don't agree with homosexuality, the fact that you know you can say your opinion without bashing. My daughter was born this way. I know that for a fact. I knew since she was four years old and still hadn't wanted to wear a dress, play with dolls, girls toys, etc. I had to put a dress on her for a special occasion and SHE FLIPPED OUT AND SCREAMED AT ME!!!!!! She yelled so loud, "I am a boy!! I am a boy!!! boys don't wear dresses!" The way she said it though, it was very intense, very bewildered, as if I should know better. I kept telling her "Sweetie, your a girl" and she yelled back, "No I am not, I am a boy!" This went on and on until I realized she wasn't kidding and never made her wear a dress again. When she made her Holy Communion, she of course had to wear a dress, she bargained with me, she said she would wear it only if after we leave the church I could take her home to change into pants before we took her to her party. I love my daughter. She says she remembers those days abt hating girl stuff.

GOD DOES NOT DISCRIMINATE AGAINS ANYBODY, INCLUDING HOMOSEXUALS.
Jesus offers salvation to all, gay or straight.
the Bible calls on us not to hate somebody because they are gay.
homosexuality is in the eyes of God the same as all other sins, because a person is a sinner if they have even committed one "itty bitty sin" like a "white lie".
God hates ALL sin the same!

Sinner
by Judas Priest

Sinner rider, rides in with the storm
The devil rides beside him
The devil is his god, God help you mourn
Do you, do you hear it, do you hear the thunder
Deafen every living thing about
Can you, can you see it, can you
See the mountains darken yonder
Black sun rising, time is running out

Sacrifice to vice or die by the hand of the
Sinner!
Sinner!
Sinner!
Sinner!

His steed of fury,
Eyes of fire and mane ablaze
Demonic vultures stalking
Drawn by the smell of war and pain
He roams the starways
Searching for the carcasses of war
But if it's hungry then its very presence
Disrupts the calm into the storm

Curse and damn you all you'll fall by the hand of the
Sinner!
Sinner!
Sinner!
Sinner!

God of the Devils, God of the Devils
Won't you help them pray
God of the Devils, God of the Devils
Is there no other way

Can't you hear their souls calling out in their plight
Can't you see their blood is boiling setting them alight

Thirty years now sleeping, so sound
War raises its head, and looks slowly around
The Sinner is near, sensing the fear
And the beast will start movin' around

Can't you see their souls calling out in their brain
Can't you hear their blood is boiling setting them alight

Sinner!
Sinner!
Sinner!
Sinner!
Sinner!

Sacrifice to vice or die by the hand of the
Curse and damn you all you fall by the hand of the
Sinner!

:rock: :guitar: :guitar: :rock:

BTW, didn't a member of Judas Priest have a sex change operation? I recall reading this somewhere. Thanx for the lyrics Captain!!

BTW, didn't a member of Judas Priest have a sex change operation? I recall reading this somewhere. Thanx for the lyrics Captain!!

I think you're thinking of Jethro Tull.

http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=11:lsjw7i38g74r~T1

BTW, didn't a member of Judas Priest have a sex change operation? I recall reading this somewhere. Thanx for the lyrics Captain!!No, but their former drummer Dave Holland was sent to prison in Britain a few years ago for sexually assaulting a mentally disabled teen boy.