:mad: :mad: :mad:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20041123/ap_on_re_us/severed_arms

Yep I saw that on the news last night. People in Texas are out of their damn minds.

Originally posted by Princess2003
Yep I saw that on the news last night. People in Texas are out of their damn minds.

At least 61% of them are.

No really.. She was mentally ill. She would have been that way regardless of what state she lived in.

Here she is.

I actually saw another woman feeling sorry for this woman when they interviewed her on the news last night. How about some sympathy for the child.

I don't believe on the 'insanity' theory. She wasn't crazy enough to get pregnant!:mad:

Originally posted by Unmarried*happy
I don't believe on the 'insanity' theory. She wasn't crazy enough to get pregnant!:mad:

I think they said she was going with the post-partum(?) syndrome. That seems to be the choice of excuse these days when a mother does something horrible to her children.

I read the story in the gazette of today and couldn't believe it.
I hope she will be in prison for the rest of her life.

Originally posted by Don Corleone
I think they said she was going with the post-partum(?) syndrome. That seems to be the choice of excuse these days when a mother does something horrible to her children.

I know:rolleyes: Well now they are prolly going to blame a lot of agencies first and even the State on the way this case was handled.

ohno: I notice how when something like this happens people they interview are like "she was a good mother" blah blah blah. :rolleyes:

If child neglect was being investigated earlier why wasn't something done? :mad: Might have been able to save that child

Originally posted by Don Corleone
I think they said she was going with the post-partum(?) syndrome. That seems to be the choice of excuse these days when a mother does something horrible to her children.

How can you understand it if you don't even know what it is? It isn't the "choice of excuse" these days. I've only heard of a few mothers that have done bad things that have been diagnosed with it. There was something seriously wrong with her.

oh please people, she was mentally ill, and you have no idea what you're talking about if you say it's not a valid reason. i can understand her doing it. she should be put in a mental hospital, not thrown in the fiery pits of hell.

This is why mentally ill people shouldn't be doing certain things where they are prone to do some harm like caring for an infant. Someone or herself should have realized that she had a problem and got her help before any damage was done. That is horrible.

I love my nieces and nephew so much, that this is just so unbeliveble. How can you harm a child? Even if you are crazy, how??? I'm not heartless, and I have a great sympathy for people who are troubled, but in this case I say put her in jail, and let them take care of her.


ohno: ohno: :cuss: :crying: :crying: :crying:

Originally posted by skyhigh25789
This is why mentally ill people shouldn't be doing certain things where they are prone to do some harm like caring for an infant.

Hey! That's a good idea! Let's go out and sterilise all people we see unfit for parenting.

Oh wait...Hitler already thought about it.
It's called eugenics.

What this mother did is horrible, and completely abnormal. But I'm assuming that most of the people here saying how horrible it is and how "this just proves that (insert any disability) people shouldn't have children" aren't mothers, or have never suffered post-partum depression.

It is NOT an excuse used for child abuse, but an actual disorder listed in the DSM-IV.

Judging from a completely alien perspective to the situation is just uncool.

Originally posted by Pirate Jenny
Hey! That's a good idea! Let's go out and sterilise all people we see unfit for parenting.

Oh wait...Hitler already thought about it.
It's called eugenics.

What this mother did is horrible, and completely abnormal. But I'm assuming that most of the people here saying how horrible it is and how "this just proves that (insert any disability) people shouldn't have children" aren't mothers, or have never suffered post-partum depression.

It is NOT an excuse used for child abuse, but an actual disorder listed in the DSM-IV.

Judging from a completely alien perspective to the situation is just uncool.

Well said.

Only 0.1 to 0.2% of new mothers are diagnosed as having postpartum psychosis, so it isn't used just as an excuse.

This woman doesn't need to just be sent away, she needs help. No sane person would have done something like this. Sane people who commit crimes have a motive; she did not. It's sad that so many people are seeing this as a black and white issue. We need to create awareness for this condition, so that the baby didn't die in vain.

:mad: I dont understand why somebody would do something like that

I don't understand how people can physically harm people they supposedly love. My friend at work is in the hospital because her husband beat her...it just enrages me.

Originally posted by *Heinz Me*
I don't understand how people can physically harm people they supposedly love. My friend at work is in the hospital because her husband beat her...it just enrages me.


It makes no sense that ppl do those things

it makes want to cry . and im so tired of the excuses that they come up with to justify doing unspeakable acts to children this story broke my heart when i read it

This lady needs to be put away and I don't give a damn what her excuse is.:mad:

So, you people - basically if somebody in your family had a mental disorder which caused them to inflict violence on another person, they should just be locked away forever instead of being treated, right?

Let's not try to understand the chemistry of their brains, let's not try to treat them and learn more about the disorder in order to prevent this from happening in the future. Let's just imprison them all - because that's the "moral" thing to do.

Originally posted by Chambers
So, you people - basically if somebody in your family had a mental disorder which caused them to inflict violence on another person, they should just be locked away forever instead of being treated, right?

Let's not try to understand the chemistry of their brains, let's not try to treat them and learn more about the disorder in order to prevent this from happening in the future. Let's just imprison them all - because that's the "moral" thing to do.

I'm all for treatment if it will help. Seems like this might have been prevented when she was reported for neglect of her kids.

Maybe I don't understand fully, but still it's my OPINION that if she's competent to stand trial she should be put away.

So if someone goes temporarily insane and kills everyone in their family, they shouldn't be locked up? Yeah maybe they will need treatment, but they still commited a horrendous crime.

My sister has had had problems with post partum depression, but she didn't go out and kill anyone. It got really bad for her at times too :(

Originally posted by Chambers
So, you people - basically if somebody in your family had a mental disorder which caused them to inflict violence on another person, they should just be locked away forever instead of being treated, right?

Let's not try to understand the chemistry of their brains, let's not try to treat them and learn more about the disorder in order to prevent this from happening in the future. Let's just imprison them all - because that's the "moral" thing to do.

Thank you for saying this.

The fact is, the issue isn't as black and white as many of you are making it out to be.

Yes, this should never happen. But you know what would prevent this more than shoving them in prison or putting them to death?
Developing a medication that would help to mitigate the effects of postpartum depression before it turns into postpartum psychosis.
Stopping the stigmatization of women suffering from postpartum depression. Telling them that it's "all in their head" isn't going to help, and is only going to make the sufferer feel more isolated and more likely to commit such terrible acts.

The fact is, men are brutally beating and killing their wives and children every day. EVERY. DAY. Rarely does this get more than a footnote on the local evening news. The moment a woman with a legitimate chemical imbalance commits such a crime, a lynch mob appears at her door.

I am not condoning what this woman did. But saying that insanity is "just an excuse" is rather naïve and doesn't help either the mothers, or children whose deaths we can hopefully prevent by finding a cure.

Originally posted by Pirate Jenny

The fact is, men are brutally beating and killing their wives and children every day. EVERY. DAY. Rarely does this get more than a footnote on the local evening news. The moment a woman with a legitimate chemical imbalance commits such a crime, a lynch mob appears at her door.



And thank you for pointing that out.


Angela, sending a person to be treated isn't exactly a day in the park. Of course what she did was awful - nobody is denying that. But if you spent one day at a mental institution that treats cases like these, you'd see that it's pretty much as bad as prison only more constructive. (As if she already hasn't) this woman will suffer plenty because of what she did regardless of what the courts do with her.

If she has mental issues then send her to hospital for it. But don't come back 5 years from now and say "I'm all better now. Let me out." If she gets better in the hospital then she needs to serve out the rest of her term in a regular prison. If she can do that and she has been seen fit to join society again-more power to her.

I feel bad for her, I feel bad for the poor baby and I feel bad for this crazy world.

Originally posted by Don Corleone
If she has mental issues then send her to hospital for it. But don't come back 5 years from now and say "I'm all better now. Let me out." If she gets better in the hospital then she needs to serve out the rest of her term in a regular prison. If she can do that and she has been seen fit to join society again-more power to her.

I completly agree.

While I have sympathy for the mentally ill it doesn't give them a right to commit a violent crime against anybody. If it was a member of your family I'm sure you wouldn't care what the reasons are that this person did it. Also its very easy to say this person or that one is mentally ill. When it comes down to it anyone that would commit murder or any act of violence is not normal. I have had members of my family suffer from depression and other mentall illnesses but that still wouldn't have given them the right to do something like this. The baby is the victim in this story.

:( Evil :(

Originally posted by *Heinz Me*
I don't understand how people can physically harm people they supposedly love. My friend at work is in the hospital because her husband beat her...it just enrages me.

It confuses me, too.

Originally posted by mr roper
I completly agree.

While I have sympathy for the mentally ill it doesn't give them a right to commit a violent crime against anybody. If it was a member of your family I'm sure you wouldn't care what the reasons are that this person did it. Also its very easy to say this person or that one is mentally ill. When it comes down to it anyone that would commit murder or any act of violence is not normal. I have had members of my family suffer from depression and other mentall illnesses but that still wouldn't have given them the right to do something like this. The baby is the victim in this story.

First off, nobody said she had a right to do anything, and nobody is denying the fact that the baby is the victim. Postpartum psychosis is an extreme of postpartum depression, and it's just that: PSYCHOSIS. It isn't just called that because it sounds snazzy, you actually become psychotic. There's a big difference between being psychotic and clinically depressed.

Originally posted by Don Corleone
If she gets better in the hospital then she needs to serve out the rest of her term in a regular prison. If she can do that and she has been seen fit to join society again-more power to her.
SHE IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT HER MENTAL ILLNESS DOES TO HER.

I almost find it offensive how you all are judging her with such closed minds. "oh she's such a sick woman for doing something as a result of her naturally messed-up brain chemicals. she has no excuse for commiting such a crime!" let me tell you something, her condition CAUSED her to commit the crime. She did not necessarily choose to. Do you not understand that such disorders take control of what you're willing and not willing to do? Nothing implies that she hated her baby or wanted it dead. Chances are she loved it to death. But the fact is she is literally psychotic and does crazy things whether she conciously wants to or not. It's not a lame excuse, people. Her condition is real. I would love to see you all go through it and not do one crazy thing. I mean, since anyone with a mental condition has complete control over it :nod: :rolleyes: Just open your damn minds. People with mental problems cannot help what the illnesses/disorders do to their minds. If you have OCD, you can't help thinking and doing strange things. If you have social anxiety, you can't help being nervous around other people. I have a lot of mental disorders, including the previous two. I'm also attention deficit. If somehow a tragedy occurred as a result of my not being able to pay attention to something, would i be to blame? What if someone with poor vision was unable to see a murderer approaching someone, and he killed them? Would we deserve to be thrown into hell simply because i couldn't focus on something and the other guy couldn't see? I hoep to god not. Yes, there are treatments. That doesn't mean the lady in the article wasn't at least trying to get it. She could have been getting help... that does not mean it worked. There have been many cases of people not getting the help they seek. Hell.. maybe she couldn't even afford it in the first place. I'm not listing all the excuses i can think of, those ARE valid reasons. An example of a lame excuse would be she was too lazy to get help.

Honestly, if you don't understand mental conditions, that's fine. But you guys are making me sick. I don't know where you all get the idea that she chose to have her mental illness, and chose what effects it should have on her, but it's the complete opposite of the truth. You don't know what you're talking about. period.

I don't understand mental conditions, either. I think it's really sad what happened to the baby. :(

Originally posted by safety pin
SHE IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT HER MENTAL ILLNESS DOES TO HER.

I almost find it offensive how you all are judging her with such closed minds. "oh she's such a sick woman for doing something as a result of her naturally messed-up brain chemicals. she has no excuse for commiting such a crime!" let me tell you something, her condition CAUSED her to commit the crime. She did not necessarily choose to. Do you not understand that such disorders take control of what you're willing and not willing to do? Nothing implies that she hated her baby or wanted it dead. Chances are she loved it to death. But the fact is she is literally psychotic and does crazy things whether she conciously wants to or not. It's not a lame excuse, people. Her condition is real. I would love to see you all go through it and not do one crazy thing. I mean, since anyone with a mental condition has complete control over it :nod: :rolleyes: Just open your damn minds. People with mental problems cannot help what the illnesses/disorders do to their minds. If you have OCD, you can't help thinking and doing strange things. If you have social anxiety, you can't help being nervous around other people. I have a lot of mental disorders, including the previous two. I'm also attention deficit. If somehow a tragedy occurred as a result of my not being able to pay attention to something, would i be to blame? What if someone with poor vision was unable to see a murderer approaching someone, and he killed them? Would we deserve to be thrown into hell simply because i couldn't focus on something and the other guy couldn't see? I hoep to god not. Yes, there are treatments. That doesn't mean the lady in the article wasn't at least trying to get it. She could have been getting help... that does not mean it worked. There have been many cases of people not getting the help they seek. Hell.. maybe she couldn't even afford it in the first place. I'm not listing all the excuses i can think of, those ARE valid reasons. An example of a lame excuse would be she was too lazy to get help.

Honestly, if you don't understand mental conditions, that's fine. But you guys are making me sick. I don't know where you all get the idea that she chose to have her mental illness, and chose what effects it should have on her, but it's the complete opposite of the truth. You don't know what you're talking about. period.

You sound like the defense attorney who will be defending her. No one said she choose to have a mental illness. She commited a crime. Just because she has a sickness does not down play the crime. A child was murdered and the murderer must pay the price. Put her in a mental hospital. Get her well. Have her serve out the rest of her sentence.

Originally posted by Pirate Jenny
Hey! That's a good idea! Let's go out and sterilise all people we see unfit for parenting.

Oh wait...Hitler already thought about it.
It's called eugenics.

What this mother did is horrible, and completely abnormal. But I'm assuming that most of the people here saying how horrible it is and how "this just proves that (insert any disability) people shouldn't have children" aren't mothers, or have never suffered post-partum depression.

It is NOT an excuse used for child abuse, but an actual disorder listed in the DSM-IV.

Judging from a completely alien perspective to the situation is just uncool. :nod:Couldn't have said it better myself.

I'm glad I'm not the only one educated on the DSM-IV in this thread.

Oh, and I'm pretty sure that Hitler didn't just think about it.

Originally posted by Don Corleone
You sound like the defense attorney who will be defending her. No one said she choose to have a mental illness. She commited a crime. Just because she has a sickness does not down play the crime. A child was murdered and the murderer must pay the price. Put her in a mental hospital. Get her well. Have her serve out the rest of her sentence.
Did you read any further than the first sentence of my post? Did the whole point of it completely fly over your head? I'll break it down.

1) The illness caused her to commit the crime. She didn't do it at her own will. It was the effect of her illness.

2) Prison isn't just a place where you go live for a while. It's where you learn your lesson for committing a crime. She didn't commit the crime at her own will. She does not need to be taught anything.

3) Yes, she could have gotten help. She may have attempted to get help, but not gotten better. She could have simply not been able to afford it.

4) You all know nothing about mental illnesses. They cannot be controlled, and you cannot control yourself when you have them, as you all seem to think you can. The lady probably loved her baby. What she did was a result of an involuntary chemical reaction in her brain.

5) There was nothing she could do. She couldn't have thought "i love my baby, i can't do this" while this was happening. psychosis is more powerful than will. What about people with epilepsy? Is their condition a lame excuse for having seizures?

I think the solution to this is that women in Texas are not allowed to have kids.

Jeffrey Dahmer, Ted Bundy, Son of Sam, Richard Speck...these guys and their murderous counterparts were all nuts.

I don't care if the mother is crazy. Put her in a psychiatric prison. Same goes for the other nut, Andrea Yates, who drowned her five small sons.

I don't know. I woke up today and just wasn't in the mood to feel sympathetic towards a baby killer, crazy or not.

Originally posted by Janice
Jeffrey Dahmer, Ted Bundy, Son of Sam, Richard Speck...these guys and their murderous counterparts were all nuts.

I don't care if the mother is crazy. Put her in a psychiatric prison. Same goes for the other nut, Andrea Yates, who drowned her five small sons.

I don't know. I woke up today and just wasn't in the mood to feel sympathetic towards a baby killer, crazy or not.

Very Well Said.

Originally posted by Janice
Jeffrey Dahmer, Ted Bundy, Son of Sam, Richard Speck...these guys and their murderous counterparts were all nuts.

I don't care if the mother is crazy. Put her in a psychiatric prison. Same goes for the other nut, Andrea Yates, who drowned her five small sons.

I don't know. I woke up today and just wasn't in the mood to feel sympathetic towards a baby killer, crazy or not.

:clap

Originally posted by Janice
Jeffrey Dahmer, Ted Bundy, Son of Sam, Richard Speck...these guys and their murderous counterparts were all nuts.

I don't care if the mother is crazy. Put her in a psychiatric prison. Same goes for the other nut, Andrea Yates, who drowned her five small sons.

I don't know. I woke up today and just wasn't in the mood to feel sympathetic towards a baby killer, crazy or not.

She should go to a psychiatric prison, but for anyone to deny that postpartum psychosis is a serious illness is ridiculous. Like I said in an earlier post, awareness needs to be brought to this issue to let people understand that it isn't some trivial thing and hopefully, some kind of cure or help for it can be found. I just want things like this to be prevented.

Originally posted by laceyinthesky
She should go to a psychiatric prison, but for anyone to deny that postpartum psychosis is a serious illness is ridiculous. Like I said in an earlier post, awareness needs to be brought to this issue to let people understand that it isn't some trivial thing and hopefully, some kind of cure or help for it can be found. I just want things like this to be prevented. Amen.

:cuss: That mother.

Originally posted by Chambers
So, you people - basically if somebody in your family had a mental disorder which caused them to inflict violence on another person, they should just be locked away forever instead of being treated, right?

Let's not try to understand the chemistry of their brains, let's not try to treat them and learn more about the disorder in order to prevent this from happening in the future. Let's just imprison them all - because that's the "moral" thing to do. Thank you.

Christ, if someone is killing someone else, there's obviously something wrong with them. They're obviously not healthy. No sane person does that ****...so you hate them for having those problems? I feel bad for them, that's how I feel. I ****ing hate how people think that way.

Originally posted by safety pin
Did you read any further than the first sentence of my post? Did the whole point of it completely fly over your head? I'll break it down.

1) The illness caused her to commit the crime. She didn't do it at her own will. It was the effect of her illness.

2) Prison isn't just a place where you go live for a while. It's where you learn your lesson for committing a crime. She didn't commit the crime at her own will. She does not need to be taught anything.

3) Yes, she could have gotten help. She may have attempted to get help, but not gotten better. She could have simply not been able to afford it.

4) You all know nothing about mental illnesses. They cannot be controlled, and you cannot control yourself when you have them, as you all seem to think you can. The lady probably loved her baby. What she did was a result of an involuntary chemical reaction in her brain.

5) There was nothing she could do. She couldn't have thought "i love my baby, i can't do this" while this was happening. psychosis is more powerful than will. What about people with epilepsy? Is their condition a lame excuse for having seizures? It's sad people will hate before they try to understand.

Originally posted by *A TV People*
Thank you.

Christ, if someone is killing someone else, there's obviously something wrong with them. They're obviously not healthy. No sane person does that ****...so you hate them for having those problems? I feel bad for them, that's how I feel. I ****ing hate how people think that way.

If that's the case then every murderer in prision is mental. Are we supposed to sit down with every know murderer and find out what went wrong in their head??? I don't think so.

Originally posted by Don Corleone
If that's the case then every murderer in prision is mental. Are we supposed to sit down with every know murderer and find out what went wrong in their head??? I don't think so. Obviously they are. But what I'm trying to say is why hate them for something they were born with? Or maybe its the way they were brought up? It's not fair at all.

Originally posted by mr roper
I completly agree.

While I have sympathy for the mentally ill it doesn't give them a right to commit a violent crime against anybody. If it was a member of your family I'm sure you wouldn't care what the reasons are that this person did it. Also its very easy to say this person or that one is mentally ill. When it comes down to it anyone that would commit murder or any act of violence is not normal. I have had members of my family suffer from depression and other mentall illnesses but that still wouldn't have given them the right to do something like this. The baby is the victim in this story. Exactly.

I mean, just because shes mentally ill, she can kill people and not get in trouble for it? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Originally posted by *A TV People*
Obviously they are. But what I'm trying to say is why hate them for something they were born with? Or maybe its the way they were brought up? It's not fair at all.


What you have got to understand is you can't save everyone. Lifes not fair. You do the best you can to make it through your own life. I don't hate them. I can't. I don't know them. But I don't want them around me or any other people that they can harm.

Originally posted by RurryMicelli
Exactly.

I mean, just because shes mentally ill, she can kill people and not get in trouble for it? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Who said anything about her not getting in trouble for it?

Originally posted by MaryElizabeth
:nod:Couldn't have said it better myself.

I'm glad I'm not the only one educated on the DSM-IV in this thread.

Oh, and I'm pretty sure that Hitler didn't just think about it.

Thanks. I'm a psych/pre-med double major. Hey, it's good to know that my college education is good for something.

I think what MaryElizabeth, lacyinthesky, safteypin, Chambers, AKA and I are trying to get across is not that such a crime should be "excused" by her condition, nor are we trying to elicit any sympathy for the mother.
What we are trying to get across is that a person with a diagnosable mental/emotional disorder cannot be held completely accountable for their actions, because they are NOT in complete control of them.
Also, because...well, because that's the law. Call it special treatment if you want, but living with such a disorder can be far worse than being imprisoned, anyway.

If a schizophrenic person was denied medication, and/or was afraid to seek help for his condition because of people like the ones on this board diminishing the severity of such a disease, he or she should not be held accountable for his actions.

Which would be easier, trying to understand and medicate the patient before such an act need occur, or sending them to prison for life because no one wished to acknowledge the acuteness of such a condition, thus continuing a cycle of suppression, silence, and ultimate outburst for another mother?

This mother committed an act of domestic violence. Heinous, yes, but comparing her to a serial killer is an exaggeration at best, sensationalistic at worst.


What does branding someone a "nut" do to help the situation, in any way?

Originally posted by Don Corleone
What you have got to understand is you can't save everyone. Lifes not fair. You do the best you can to make it through your own life. I don't hate them. I can't. I don't know them. But I don't want them around me or any other people that they can harm. I know life isn't fair and that everyone can't be helped. But people have to learn to understand. There's people going through here saying how much they hate someone for doing something so terribly wrong, there must be something wrong with themselves as well.

Originally posted by laceyinthesky
Who said anything about her not getting in trouble for it? Let me refrase that- just because she's mentally ill, we have to feel bad for her? A murdererer is a murderer.

Originally posted by Pirate Jenny
Thanks. I'm a psych/pre-med double major. Hey, it's good to know that my college education is good for something.

I think what MaryElizabeth, lacyinthesky, safteypin, Chambers, AKA and I are trying to get across is not that such a crime should be "excused" by her condition, nor are we trying to elicit any sympathy for the mother.
What we are trying to get across is that a person with a diagnosable mental/emotional disorder cannot be held completely accountable for their actions, because they are NOT in complete control of them.
Also, because...well, because that's the law. Call it special treatment if you want, but living with such a disorder can be far worse than being imprisoned, anyway.

If a schizophrenic person was denied medication, and/or was afraid to seek help for his condition because of people like the ones on this board diminishing the severity of such a disease, he or she should not be held accountable for his actions.

Which would be easier, trying to understand and medicate the patient before such an act need occur, or sending them to prison for life because no one wished to acknowledge the acuteness of such a condition, thus continuing a cycle of suppression, silence, and ultimate outburst for another mother?

This mother committed an act of domestic violence. Heinous, yes, but comparing her to a serial killer is an exaggeration at best, sensationalistic at worst.


What does branding someone a "nut" do to help the situation, in any way? Thank you.

But then you bring serial killers in...I think anyone who can kill another person really DOES have something wrong with them.

Originally posted by RurryMicelli
Let me refrase that- just because she's mentally ill, we have to feel bad for her? A murdererer is a murderer. Yes. A murderer is a human being with severe problems. You have to understand that. What I'm trying to say to everyone is that they want to hate before they try to understand. That's always the case and that's why this world is so miserable.

Originally posted by RurryMicelli
Let me refrase that- just because she's mentally ill, we have to feel bad for her? A murdererer is a murderer.

Nobody said you have to feel bad for her. She needed help before this happened. Since what she did can't be helped now, the least we can do is learn from this and help others with the same condition long before something like this happens.

Originally posted by *A TV People*
Thank you.

But then you bring serial killers in...I think anyone who can kill another person really DOES have something wrong with them.

I brought them in because Janice had brought it up.
I agree that anyone who kills someone has something wrong with them.
However, the comparison she made would only lead to more oversimplification of a complicated problem, ergo, more intolerance.

Does that clear things up?

Originally posted by Pirate Jenny
I brought them in because Janice had brought it up.
I agree that anyone who kills someone has something wrong with them.
However, the comparison she made would only lead to more oversimplification of a complicated problem, ergo, more intolerance.

Does that clear things up? Yeah :)

Originally posted by *A TV People*
I know life isn't fair and that everyone can't be helped. But people have to learn to understand. There's people going through here saying how much they hate someone for doing something so terribly wrong, there must be something wrong with themselves as well.


It's more of disgust than hate I would think. Hate is the first word to come to mind when something like that is heard. I'll go back to my orignal opinion-if she needs mental help put her in a hospital. But don't come back after 5 years and expect to be set free because "I'm all better now". A murder was commited and the punishment needs to be served out.

Originally posted by Don Corleone
It's more of disgust than hate I would think. Hate is the first word to come to mind when something like that is heard. I'll go back to my orignal opinion-if she needs mental help put her in a hospital. But don't come back after 5 years and expect to be set free because "I'm all better now". A murder was commited and the punishment needs to be served out. I understand, but I'm not even really talking about the punishment part of it...but the understanding. I really have no idea what to do with a person in that situation, I'm no professional. And this is probably why we just throw people into jail, we don't know what to do with them and that's the easiest way.

Originally posted by Pirate Jenny
Thanks. I'm a psych/pre-med double major. Hey, it's good to know that my college education is good for something.

I think what MaryElizabeth, lacyinthesky, safteypin, Chambers, AKA and I are trying to get across is not that such a crime should be "excused" by her condition, nor are we trying to elicit any sympathy for the mother.
What we are trying to get across is that a person with a diagnosable mental/emotional disorder cannot be held completely accountable for their actions, because they are NOT in complete control of them.
Also, because...well, because that's the law. Call it special treatment if you want, but living with such a disorder can be far worse than being imprisoned, anyway.

If a schizophrenic person was denied medication, and/or was afraid to seek help for his condition because of people like the ones on this board diminishing the severity of such a disease, he or she should not be held accountable for his actions.

Which would be easier, trying to understand and medicate the patient before such an act need occur, or sending them to prison for life because no one wished to acknowledge the acuteness of such a condition, thus continuing a cycle of suppression, silence, and ultimate outburst for another mother?

This mother committed an act of domestic violence. Heinous, yes, but comparing her to a serial killer is an exaggeration at best, sensationalistic at worst.


What does branding someone a "nut" do to help the situation, in any way? First off, I just want to say that I'm sick to my stomach that another child has suffered. I think it could've been prevented, but I won't get into all the different ways it could've been.

I feel sorry for a lot of things:

1. The ignorance of mental illnesses in general and the stigma surrounding them caused by our society. Oh, what I would give to be ignorant on the subject of mental illnesses, but the course my life has taken me on, won't allow it to be so.

2. The fact that people automatically think that if I feel for her disorder, I automatically think she's done no wrong and should receive no punishment.

3. The fact that apples and oranges are being compared on this thread, but that ties in with ignorance.

4. I am sick and tired of seeing people get sent to prison to be tossed to the wolves instead of, or without getting treatment for their severe mental illnesses. And besides, there's so much research to be done.

5. I also feel sorry for myself for the simple fact that I'm not a psych major yet, and haven't started school. It's my calling and I need a swift kick in the ass.

Christ people, i apologize for any hostility but you make me want to stab myself. I give up. I repeat my facts over and over just to get more "jus cause she was mentally sick doesnt mean she can kill people!" You all don't know a god damned thing about mental illnesses and what they do to people. The way you're criticizing her is no different than blaming people with epilepsy for having seizures, blaming a deaf person for not being able to hear, or blaming a ******** person for not learning fast enough. She couldn't help it. I'm going to say this once and for all and leave it at that. If you're thinking "how the hell can that be the case?" then go read my post on the third page.

SHE WASN'T RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT SHE DID, HER PSYCHOSIS WAS.

Originally posted by safety pin
Christ people, i apologize for any hostility but you make me want to stab myself. I give up. I repeat my facts over and over just to get more "jus cause she was mentally sick doesnt mean she can kill people!" You all don't know a god damned thing about mental illnesses and what they do to people. The way you're criticizing her is no different than blaming people with epilepsy for having seizures, blaming a deaf person for not being able to hear, or blaming a ******** person for not learning fast enough. She couldn't help it. I'm going to say this once and for all and leave it at that. If you're thinking "how the hell can that be the case?" then go read my post on the third page.

SHE WASN'T RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT SHE DID, HER PSYCHOSIS WAS. If you're going to stab yourself, I'm not getting you those popiel knives for christmas. ;)

Originally posted by safety pin
Christ people, i apologize for any hostility but you make me want to stab myself. I give up. I repeat my facts over and over just to get more "jus cause she was mentally sick doesnt mean she can kill people!" You all don't know a god damned thing about mental illnesses and what they do to people. The way you're criticizing her is no different than blaming people with epilepsy for having seizures, blaming a deaf person for not being able to hear, or blaming a ******** person for not learning fast enough. She couldn't help it. I'm going to say this once and for all and leave it at that. If you're thinking "how the hell can that be the case?" then go read my post on the third page.

SHE WASN'T RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT SHE DID, HER PSYCHOSIS WAS.

It's very hard to get people who only see in black and white to see any gray area. I understand your frustration.

Originally posted by MaryElizabeth
If you're going to stab yourself, I'm not getting you those popiel knives for christmas. ;)
:eek: *doesn't stab self* :)

Originally posted by safety pin
:eek: *doesn't stab self* :) :lol:

Originally posted by Pirate Jenny
I brought them in because Janice had brought it up.
I agree that anyone who kills someone has something wrong with them.
However, the comparison she made would only lead to more oversimplification of a complicated problem, ergo, more intolerance.

Does that clear things up?
I made the comparison that someone who has post-partum depression and kills their baby and serial murderers both have mental disorders. That's not oversimplifying anything. It's the truth.

Originally posted by Janice
I made the comparison that someone who has post-partum depression and kills their baby and serial murderers both have mental disorders. That's not oversimplifying anything. It's the truth.

Some of the serial killers listed were psychotic, others were just prone to certain behaviors. Being prone to something and being psychotic are two completely different things.

This is the kind of news story that makes you want to crawl into bed and forget there's a whole friggin world outside.

So sad.

Originally posted by RurryMicelli
just because she's mentally ill, we have to feel bad for her?
Mental illnesses are horrible. they're just like physical illnesses, only they control your mind. she's not responsible for what it did to her.

Originally posted by RurryMicelli
A murdererer is a murderer.

A criminal is a criminal.
A murderer is a murderer.
A terrorist is a terrorist.
A Jew is a Jew.
A black woman is a black woman.

But you are a complex human individual worthy of dignity, respect and understanding.

Originally posted by laceyinthesky
It's very hard to get people who only see in black and white to see any gray area. I understand your frustration. Do I ever agree. I get so pissed off over the littlest things just because people I'm trying to talk to won't open their ****ing minds.

Originally posted by *A TV People*
Do I ever agree. I get so pissed off over the littlest things just because people I'm trying to talk to won't open their ****ing minds. Here's something that comforts me. While not everyone may have an open mind, at least I do and continue to learn.

Originally posted by MaryElizabeth
Here's something that comforts me. While not everyone may have an open mind, at least I do and continue to learn. I'm so stubborn, though. I will NOT give up until the other person gives in. I hate being that way, but I always have to be right. Ugh. *hits self with bat numerous times*

Originally posted by *A TV People*
I'm so stubborn, though. I will NOT give up until the other person gives in. I hate being that way, but I always have to be right. Ugh. *hits self with bat numerous times*

I'm always the one who gives in;) That's an even worse way to be than what you said. It just makes everyone think they can do something to you but you'll apologize:o

Originally posted by *A TV People*
I'm so stubborn, though. I will NOT give up until the other person gives in. I hate being that way, but I always have to be right. Ugh. *hits self with bat numerous times* I'm like that, too. At least you can make yourself heard. Sometimes that's all you can do.

Originally posted by MaryElizabeth
I'm like that, too. At least you can make yourself heard. Sometimes that's all you can do. Yeah, but it feels like no ones listening a lot of the time.

Originally posted by *A TV People*
Yeah, but it feels like no ones listening a lot of the time. I know.

Originally posted by laceyinthesky
First off, nobody said she had a right to do anything, and nobody is denying the fact that the baby is the victim. Postpartum psychosis is an extreme of postpartum depression, and it's just that: PSYCHOSIS. It isn't just called that because it sounds snazzy, you actually become psychotic. There's a big difference between being psychotic and clinically depressed.

Yea and women have been having this for years and its only lately we've heard it as a defense for murder. I don't feel sorry for her one bit. It sounds like another excuse. I'm sick of people making excuses for the criminal.

Originally posted by Janice
Jeffrey Dahmer, Ted Bundy, Son of Sam, Richard Speck...these guys and their murderous counterparts were all nuts.

I don't care if the mother is crazy. Put her in a psychiatric prison. Same goes for the other nut, Andrea Yates, who drowned her five small sons.

I don't know. I woke up today and just wasn't in the mood to feel sympathetic towards a baby killer, crazy or not.

Thats an excellent post.:)

Originally posted by mr roper
Yea and women have been having this for years and its only lately we've heard it as a defense for murder. I don't feel sorry for her one bit. It sounds like another excuse. I'm sick of people making excuses for the criminal.
It is a fact that she has psychosis. It is a fact that psychosis makes you do crazy things, regardless whether or not you want to. You cannot control your own mind with the condition.

She told the 911 operator what she did. You'd think if she was diliberately trying to murder the baby, she'd try to cover it up.

Originally posted by mr roper
Yea and women have been having this for years and its only lately we've heard it as a defense for murder. I don't feel sorry for her one bit. It sounds like another excuse. I'm sick of people making excuses for the criminal.

It's only lately we've been hearing about it because it's only been recently recognized as a real problem.

People also used to think that crazy people were possessed until they discovered it was schizophrenia.

Originally posted by mr roper
Yea and women have been having this for years and its only lately we've heard it as a defense for murder. I don't feel sorry for her one bit. It sounds like another excuse. I'm sick of people making excuses for the criminal.

Like lacyinthesky said, Postpartum depression was only added into the DSM-IV in 1994 as a distinct disorder, and therefore, couldn't be used as a legal defense before this.

Originally posted by Pirate Jenny


If a schizophrenic person was denied medication, and/or was afraid to seek help for his condition because of people like the ones on this board diminishing the severity of such a disease, he or she should not be held accountable for his actions.


Robert Bardo who shot Rebecca Schaeffer was schizophrenic. So, are you saying that he shouldn't have been held accountable for his actions?

Originally posted by crystals
Robert Bardo who shot Rebecca Schaeffer was schizophrenic. So, are you saying that he shouldn't have been held accountable for his actions?
If killing her was a result of his schizophrenia (i'd have to know the whole story), then, no, it wasn't his fault and he shouldn't have been held accountable. He should have been placed in a mental hospital.

You know, I could ALMOST understand having the urge to kill your kid. He's been crying all day, you haven't slept more than 3 hours at a time for more than 2 months, and you're really sick of it. And I bet that feeling is amplified a hundred times if you're mentally ill. But she CUT OFF her baby's arms. Not just killed him. She made him suffer. THe baby didn't die until a few hours later, and really, thank God he did. I hope the woman is put in prison for the rest of her life, regardless of how depressed she is.

Originally posted by MaryElizabeth
First off, I just want to say that I'm sick to my stomach that another child has suffered. I think it could've been prevented, but I won't get into all the different ways it could've been.

I feel sorry for a lot of things:

1. The ignorance of mental illnesses in general and the stigma surrounding them caused by our society. Oh, what I would give to be ignorant on the subject of mental illnesses, but the course my life has taken me on, won't allow it to be so.

2. The fact that people automatically think that if I feel for her disorder, I automatically think she's done no wrong and should receive no punishment.

3. The fact that apples and oranges are being compared on this thread, but that ties in with ignorance.

4. I am sick and tired of seeing people get sent to prison to be tossed to the wolves instead of, or without getting treatment for their severe mental illnesses. And besides, there's so much research to be done.

5. I also feel sorry for myself for the simple fact that I'm not a psych major yet, and haven't started school. It's my calling and I need a swift kick in the ass. I'd also like to add number 6
6. People who add their two cents when they don't know what they're talking about, nor bother to educate themselves. Life isn't black and white or cut and dry.

At least all of us can agree on one thing: There's a baby dead that shouldn't have to be.

Originally posted by *Marilyn Monroe*
You know, I could ALMOST understand having the urge to kill your kid. He's been crying all day, you haven't slept more than 3 hours at a time for more than 2 months, and you're really sick of it. And I bet that feeling is amplified a hundred times if you're mentally ill. But she CUT OFF her baby's arms. Not just killed him. She made him suffer. THe baby didn't die until a few hours later, and really, thank God he did. I hope the woman is put in prison for the rest of her life, regardless of how depressed she is.

It's not depression. It's psychosis. Very different things.

Originally posted by *Marilyn Monroe*
You know, I could ALMOST understand having the urge to kill your kid. He's been crying all day, you haven't slept more than 3 hours at a time for more than 2 months, and you're really sick of it. And I bet that feeling is amplified a hundred times if you're mentally ill. But she CUT OFF her baby's arms. Not just killed him. She made him suffer. THe baby didn't die until a few hours later, and really, thank God he did. I hope the woman is put in prison for the rest of her life, regardless of how depressed she is.
She didn't do it while sane. When you're insane, truly insane, you literally don't know what you're doing. It was not something she consciously chose to do. Depression isn't her excuse, psychosis is.

Originally posted by MaryElizabeth
I'd also like to add number 6
6. People who add their two cents when they don't know what they're talking about, nor bother to educate themselves.
:nod: people on this board make me sick. i also see no one's bothered to reply to my questioning of whether a deaf person is guilty for not being able to hear, or an epileptic person is guilty for having seizure. there is no damn difference between that and the way everyone is criticizing the lady for the effects of her psychosis. the chemical reaction in her brain made her do it.

Just because you guys are mentally sane and can control your own actions doesn't mean everyone can. :rolleyes: Really, why don't you make sure you know what the hell you're talking about next time you want to critcize someone for having a condition you don't know a god damn thing about. i have an obsession with psychology and mental illnesses so believe me i know damn well what i'm saying.

Originally posted by Chambers
It's not depression. It's psychosis. Very different things.

But didn't the depression lead to psychosis? And, using that defense, that you can't prove or disprove, couldn't every killer be set free? "Sorry, Your Honor. I went insane, therefore, it's alright to kill my child." I don't think it should work like that.

Yes, I have sympathy for anyone who goes through depression. It's hard, I know. But GET HELP before it's too late!! If she was investigated before, they should have seen it. Her husband should have seen it. But there is NO reason for a child to have to die like that. And her other two kids...can you even imagine what they're going through right now? There are definitely more important people in this case, like her kids.

http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/simplepsych/psychosis.html

What Is Psychosis?

Psychosis, in psychological language, is a condition in which a person isn't in contact with reality like most people.

Psychosis can take many forms, it can include:

Sensing things that aren't really there (called Hallucinations)
Having beliefs that aren't based on reality (called Delusions)
Problems in thinking clearly (e.g. thought insertion, withdrawal, block, broadcasting)
Not realising that there is anything wrong with themselves (called lack of insight)
In Psychiatry there are a number of disorders that come under the general title of the psychoses. They all differ in symptoms, but all are joined in the fact that the person is in someway not experiencing reality like most people.

These are:

Schizophrenia
Schizoaffective Disorder
Manic-Depression (Bipolar Disorder)
Mania
Delusional (Paranoid) Disorders
Psychotic Depression

People suffering with a long-term psychosis often have problems looking after themselves, and getting on well with other people.

What Causes It

No one really knows, pretty much every possible suggestion has been made throughout the years. Some popular theories include:

You inherit it (through your DNA)
You have a 'wiring problem' in your brain
You have a chemical imbalance in your brain/body
You get too anxious or stressed
It's a psychological defence mechanism
any combination of the above

Although we know psychosis can be brought on in some people by:

Using Illegal Drugs (e.g. cannabis, LSD)
Infections (e.g. Menningitis)
Brain Tumours (Cancer)
Epilepsy
Head Injuries


What Treatment Is There?
Psychosis has been shown to respond well to treatments such as antipsychotic medication, and more recently Cognitive-Behavioural Therapy has been suggested as working well. Family and Group therapies are often suggested as working well with certain individuals.

Despite providing quite useful ways of thinking about psychosis, traditional Psychodynamic therapies are generally not thought to work well, and some people even consider them potentially harmful.


Do People Recover?

Some people who experience a psychosis may only experience it once throughout their whole life (this is called a 'single episode'), other people may have problems with it for the rest of their lives.

:)

Originally posted by *Marilyn Monroe*
But didn't the depression lead to psychosis? And, using that defense, that you can't prove or disprove, couldn't every killer be set free? "Sorry, Your Honor. I went insane, therefore, it's alright to kill my child." I don't think it should work like that.
IT WAS NOT SOMETHING SHE DID WILLINGLY. You all need to understand what psychosis is and what it does. It literally messes with your brain chemicals, making you do things whether you consciously want to or not. It's not that her case should be dropped and they should send her back home. She should be put in a mental hospital, probably for the rest of her life.

She could have gotten help for depression. It doesn't always work. She could have not been able to find it or afford it in the first place. you all need to think outside the box. nothing implies anyone knew her psychosis would take over to the point of her killing her baby.

I'll butt into the conversation here...

In all honestly, I think that what happened was horrible. A baby suffered and died when he/she had done nothing wrong. That is sad and that is a complete tragedy.

The woman suffers from a mental illness that makes her do things unconciously. She has no control over what the psychosis does to her at all and she was basically unaware of what she was doing until after she did it. Do you think she woke up and said "Well I might kill my child today"?

And to say that using mental illness as an excuse is just plain sick and twisted and very disrespectful to those who really do suffer the illnesses. Anyone can say "Well she's faking it." But who are you to say that? Did you go to medical school and get a degree? Did you meet this woman face to face and have a long drawn out conversation with her?

People with mental illnesses shouldn't be shunned upon! They should be treated, helped and assisted in anyway that can be!

This is just like the thing about killing in self defense. If someone was coming at you with a ticking bomb strapped to themself and you had a loaded gun in your hand, you would shoot wouldn't you? No matter if the person lived or died, wouldn't you shoot? And when the person dies, does the person who killed someone to save themself supposed to spend life in prison or supposed to be sentenced to death? If that is so, what was the point of killing the person who was trying to kill you?

Saying that 'a murderer is a murderer' is sick. Why not say that 'a German is a German' and use Hitler as the master example? Why not say that 'a Baywatch star is a Baywatch star' and use Pamela Anderson as the example? That is generalization of people, and that is something I never tolerated. Let's say that 'a white person is a white person' and use Timothy McVeigh as the example. Or, my number one favorite, 'a Muslim is a Muslim' and use Saddam Hussein as the example.

It makes no sense and is complete discrimination!

I hope that this poor woman can get the help that she so deserves and whenever she is finally treated well enough to live on her own again (if that day ever comes), I hope she can move on without all of the shunning and scowling that the people here at SO would give her. Everyone has dirty laundry, dirty family secrets, and some of those secrets just couldn't be prevented from taking place.

It's easy to defend people when it doesn't happen to you. All I know is, if my wife killed either or both of my children, I doubt I would be understanding about her condition. I don't give a rat's ass if she is locked up in a mental hospital or prison. The point is a crime was committed and there must be some punishment for it. Like Don Corleon said, if in 5 years the doctors say she is fine. She shouldn't be able to walk the streets a free woman.

Thank you, JT. it appears that people here aren't even trying to grasp the fact that the lady couldn't help it.

What about sleepwalking? There was once a case of a man sleepwalking and unconsciously killing his fiance's parents, with no sign of ever wanting to do something nearly that terrible. Does he belong in the fiery pits of hell, too? I guess so, after all, being asleep is NOT an excuse for not being awake :mad: :rolleyes: ohno:

Originally posted by safety pin
IT WAS NOT SOMETHING SHE DID WILLINGLY. You all need to understand what psychosis is and what it does. It literally messes with your brain chemicals, making you do things whether you consciously want to or not. It's not that her case should be dropped and they should send her back home. She should be put in a mental hospital, probably for the rest of her life.

She could have gotten help for depression. It doesn't always work. She could have not been able to find it or afford it in the first place. you all need to think outside the box. nothing implies anyone knew her psychosis would take over to the point of her killing her baby.

OK...I see your point, that she didn't do it willingly, and I do hope she gets help. I hope she also isn't let back into society, ever, because it puts all of us at risk if she happens to have a "relapse."

All of this is assuming this is true. How do we know she's not just using it as an excuse so she doesn't get the death penalty? I sure as hell wouldn't stop at anything to make sure I lived, including saying that I'm insane. If she really did go psychotic, (it sounds derogatory, but I don't know what else to call it) then I do feel sorry for her, and she needs help. But I'm going to need a hundred different psychologists to tell me that she's 100% insane before I think she really is.

Originally posted by *Marilyn Monroe*
OK...I see your point, that she didn't do it willingly, and I do hope she gets help. I hope she also isn't let back into society, ever, because it puts all of us at risk if she happens to have a "relapse."

All of this is assuming this is true. How do we know she's not just using it as an excuse so she doesn't get the death penalty? I sure as hell wouldn't stop at anything to make sure I lived, including saying that I'm insane. If she really did go psychotic, (it sounds derogatory, but I don't know what else to call it) then I do feel sorry for her, and she needs help. But I'm going to need a hundred different psychologists to tell me that she's 100% insane before I think she really is.
Which is probably what they'd have to go. It's true that anyone can say "well i'm insane and i didn't realize i was killing my daughter so it wasnt my fault," they would probably have to be evaluated several times to see if that's the case.

Originally posted by *Marilyn Monroe*
All of this is assuming this is true. How do we know she's not just using it as an excuse so she doesn't get the death penalty? I sure as hell wouldn't stop at anything to make sure I lived, including saying that I'm insane. If she really did go psychotic, (it sounds derogatory, but I don't know what else to call it) then I do feel sorry for her, and she needs help. But I'm going to need a hundred different psychologists to tell me that she's 100% insane before I think she really is.

Why would she use it as an excuse to not get the death penalty? Why would she have killed her baby? Better yet, why would she have killed her baby and then called 911 on herself? Like I've said earlier, sane people have motives for the crimes they commit.

Originally posted by *Marilyn Monroe*
All of this is assuming this is true. How do we know she's not just using it as an excuse so she doesn't get the death penalty?

But how do we know that she is lying? Why are people quick to suspect the worse thing? Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty? (of being mentally ill, not of killing her kid)

Originally posted by safety pin
Which is probably what they'd have to go. It's true that anyone can say "well i'm insane and i didn't realize i was killing my daughter so it wasnt my fault," they would probably have to be evaluated several times to see if that's the case.


People who use the insanity defense usually are evaluated several times by more than one psychiatrist.

Originally posted by Brian Damage
It's easy to defend people when it doesn't happen to you.

It's also easy to blame people when it doesn't happen to you.

The point is, the people here are judging a woman they have never met on a news blurb. None of use know the whole story, and chances are, it's more complicated than any of us know.

Originally posted by laceyinthesky
People who use the insanity defense usually are evaluated several times by more than one psychiatrist. And not just by defense appointed psychiatrists.

Originally posted by MaryElizabeth
And not just by defense appointed psychiatrists.

Yeah, I meant to add that, too. Thankyou :)

Originally posted by Pirate Jenny
It's also easy to blame people when it doesn't happen to you.

The point is, the people here are judging a woman they have never met on a news blurb. None of use know the whole story, and chances are, it's more complicated than any of us know.

Blaming her for killing her kid? Thank God it doesn't happen to me.

I'm sure I'm making some incorrect judgments, and maybe everyone else is too, but everyone is so quick to jump to her defense. You have to keep in mind that she COULD be using it as an excuse.

Originally posted by laceyinthesky
Yeah, I meant to add that, too. Thankyou :)
Anytime, anytime. :cool:

Originally posted by *Marilyn Monroe*
Blaming her for killing her kid? Thank God it doesn't happen to me.

I'm sure I'm making some incorrect judgments, and maybe everyone else is too, but everyone is so quick to jump to her defense. You have to keep in mind that she COULD be using it as an excuse.

It is possible that she's just using it as an excuse, but she was diagnosed with it months earlier, and had other children as well. If she had planned it out, what would she have gained from killing one child and turning herself in?

Originally posted by *Marilyn Monroe*
Blaming her for killing her kid? Thank God it doesn't happen to me.

I'm sure I'm making some incorrect judgments, and maybe everyone else is too, but everyone is so quick to jump to her defense. You have to keep in mind that she COULD be using it as an excuse.

I used a bad choice of words there, and I apologise. I meant "judge."
We were only "quick to jump to her defense" because others were quick to judge, question her condition, or wax on about who should be allowed reproductive rights.

As I have stated before, what happened to the baby is absolutely horrible...saying that the mother is not completely responsible for her actions does not make the baby's death any less horrific.

Wow I think reading this whole thread caused my violent diarrhea.

Originally posted by Dutabi84
Wow I think reading this whole thread caused my violent diarrhea.

Now don't try to blame that on something else! You know you chose for that to happen!

Originally posted by laceyinthesky
Now don't try to blame that on something else! You know you chose for that to happen!

No..I'll think of something to blame it on! I have hyperdiarrheal syondrome. I can't help it. :/

Originally posted by Pirate Jenny
It's also easy to blame people when it doesn't happen to you.

The point is, the people here are judging a woman they have never met on a news blurb. None of use know the whole story, and chances are, it's more complicated than any of us know.

I don't need to know the whole story. Its always complicated. Every violent murderer is crazy. Don't you think Charles Manson is insane. The way some people on here are talking we should give them a few pills and let them walk the street. No wonder the whole country is going down the drain.

Originally posted by laceyinthesky
It is possible that she's just using it as an excuse, but she was diagnosed with it months earlier, and had other children as well. If she had planned it out, what would she have gained from killing one child and turning herself in?

And whether its an excuse or not, it is no defense for murder. This whole thread has turned into this poor woman well what about the poor baby. Thats the trouble with this society today. Nobody wants to take responsibility for their own actions.

Originally posted by mr roper
I don't need to know the whole story. Its always complicated. Every violent murderer is crazy. Don't you think Charles Manson is insane. The way some people on here are talking we should give them a few pills and let them walk the street. No wonder the whole country is going down the drain.

Originally posted by mr roper
And whether its an excuse or not, it is no defense for murder. This whole thread has turned into this poor woman well what about the poor baby. Thats the trouble with this society today. Nobody wants to take responsibility for their own actions.

Well said! :nod:

http://www.sitcomsonline.com/boards/attachment.php?s=&postid=2202463

Originally posted by MaryElizabeth
http://www.sitcomsonline.com/boards/attachment.php?s=&postid=2202463

http://www.sitcomsonline.com/boards/attachment.php?s=&postid=2135029

:bye:

We've just arrested a woman here in Washington State for STARVING her babies to death.

Originally posted by Captain ABlairica
We've just arrested a woman here in Washington State for STARVING her babies to death.

It makes me sick. I've heard of similar cases in other places. :livid:

Originally posted by mr roper
I don't need to know the whole story. Its always complicated. Every violent murderer is crazy. Don't you think Charles Manson is insane. The way some people on here are talking we should give them a few pills and let them walk the street. No wonder the whole country is going down the drain.

No, see there's a difference. Charles Manson feels no remorse for all of the lives he has ended. He was interviewed by Geraldo Revera and seemed quite proud of what he had done.

This woman was basically unconscious when she did this to her child. SHe had no idea or control over what she was doing.

Originally posted by JT
No, see there's a difference. Charles Manson feels no remorse for all of the lives he has ended. He was interviewed by Geraldo Revera and seemed quite proud of what he had done.

This woman was basically unconscious when she did this to her child. SHe had no idea or control over what she was doing.

Which is why he's insane. A normal person would have remorse. Maybe he should be in a mental institution.

I'm not saying we shouldn't understand why it happened because its always good to know to try to prevent these type of things in the future but a crime has been committed.

The cause of the crime really only matters as regard to sentencing. I'm not saying put them to death but some sort of sentence is needed.

But why should they punish a woman who had no control over the crime she committed?

Originally posted by Pirate Jenny
It's also easy to blame people when it doesn't happen to you.

The point is, the people here are judging a woman they have never met on a news blurb. None of use know the whole story, and chances are, it's more complicated than any of us know.

All I know is that a little child was murdered. I'm sorry, but I think I'll feel more remorse for the child who was the victim than the woman who did it.

FIRST OF ALL, nobody feels sorry for the woman.


SECONDLY, the only difference in our opinions is essentially that we believe people who didn't commit murder consciously should not be punished in the same way as somebody who did it consciously.

And for those of you who say it's not a legitimate defense...read up on your law.

A murder was comitted and a punishment should be handed out. Like I said, I don't give a sh*t if it's life in prison or life in a mental hospital, this woman should be put away for life. THE END.

Originally posted by JT
But why should they punish a woman who had no control over the crime she committed?
David Berkowitz aka 'Son of Sam' said his dog told him to shoot and kill innocent couples as they sat parked in their cars in the 70s.

Mark David Chapman was delusional and obsessed with the character Holden Caulfield in the book, Catcher in the Rye. Many accounts report that Chapman actually thought he was Caulfield. His delusions caused him to kill John Lennon in cold blood.

John Hinkley, in this deranged mind, thought that he would impress Jodie Foster if he killed President Reagan.

Charles Manson ordered the butchering of those seven victims to incite a race war. He and his disciples had a plan to live underground for a time, until after the revolution. Of course, Manson would then rule the world, in his mind. If anyone doubts that Manson is insane, they haven't looked into his eyes or seen him in any interviews.

These people had no control over their actions either since they were all nuts. Yet, they got punished and every one of them is where they belong now.

very good points, I'm also sure that if Osama Bin Laden was examined, doctors could find something wrong with him too.

Originally posted by Brian Damage
A murder was comitted and a punishment should be handed out. Like I said, I don't give a sh*t if it's life in prison or life in a mental hospital, this woman should be put away for life. THE END.

going to a mental hospital isn't a punishment, its a way to get help for people with mental problems. i don't think she should be punished because she had no control over what she was doing.

Originally posted by Brian Damage
very good points, I'm also sure that if Osama Bin Laden was examined, doctors could find something wrong with him too. I know you're being a sarcastic *******, but I do believe that is a true statement.

Of course, it's not always the way a person is born. Sometimes they're brought up in a ****ed up environment and doing horrible things is all they know. It's sad, to me. And you act like everyone defending this woman doesn't feel sorry for the baby? Holy ****, a baby is dead. That's soo sad to me. And it's also sad that a person was sick enough to have done something that awful. But people, like you apparently, are quicker to hate before you try to understand.

And I don't know, but it seems like I'm either the only one or of few who thinks anyone who kills one or more people is sick and ****ed up in the head. Most people are quicker to hate these people, I feel sorry for them for having to be born with that life.

And all of what I'm saying has nothing to do with punishment. I'm not saying these people should be walking around free. All I'm saying is you have to look at them like sick people, because that's all they are.

Originally posted by *A TV People*
I know you're being a sarcastic *******, but I do believe that is a true statement.

Of course, it's not always the way a person is born. Sometimes they're brought up in a ****ed up environment and doing horrible things is all they know. It's sad, to me. And you act like everyone defending this woman doesn't feel sorry for the baby? Holy ****, a baby is dead. That's soo sad to me. And it's also sad that a person was sick enough to have done something that awful. But people, like you apparently, are quicker to hate before you try to understand.

And I don't know, but it seems like I'm either the only one or of few who thinks anyone who kills one or more people is sick and ****ed up in the head. Most people are quicker to hate these people, I feel sorry for them for having to be born with that life.

And all of what I'm saying has nothing to do with punishment. I'm not saying these people should be walking around free. All I'm saying is you have to look at them like sick people, because that's all they are.

Noew you are talking about 2 different situation. A mental situation as compared to a learned situation as by your example of environment. These have nothing in common. We are looking at them as sick people. A sick person who has commited a crime. I might have missed it but point out on this thread where anyone has said they hated these people for who they are. As I said before it is more of digust than hate.

Originally posted by *A TV People*
I know you're being a sarcastic *******
That's uncalled for. Personal attacks are a violation of rules.

If I think about what this woman did, if I actually try to picture the sequence of events in my mind, I can't help but feel the most gut wrenching sadness I could ever feel involving someone I don't know. What that baby felt and experienced, the agony and the screaming and life draining away, it is all unimaginable.

An 11 month old child has an incredible awareness- - my head is even now filling with white noise as I write.

I cannot even summon the proper anger towards this woman as I can't get that poor baby out of mind.

You don't have to have a child to feel this indescribable horror.
But I bet if you do, it strikes a deeper and more confusing chord.

OK Let me try to say this another way:

What if a 10-year-old boy suffered the same exact illness as this woman and unconsciously killed his mother? Should he be locked up for the rest of his life?

Originally posted by JT
OK Let me try to say this another way:

What if a 10-year-old boy suffered the same exact illness as this woman and unconsciously killed his mother? Should he be locked up for the rest of his life?
If this were the case, then the boy should go through the legal process and accept his punishment. He wouldn't be tried as an adult.

I think the same should apply to this mother. She should receive whatever the penalty is for killing another person. I never stated that they should lock her up and throw away the key. If her sentence is 15, 25, or life, that's what she should serve. Just as other killers do with mental conditions.

Originally posted by mr roper
I don't need to know the whole story. Its always complicated. Every violent murderer is crazy. Don't you think Charles Manson is insane. The way some people on here are talking we should give them a few pills and let them walk the street. No wonder the whole country is going down the drain.

First of all, not ONE person here has said anything about giving them a few pills and letting them walk the street. I know you'd love for all of us to think that for the sake of your argument, but I don't think any of us do.

Originally posted by Janice
If this were the case, then the boy should go through the legal process and accept his punishment. He wouldn't be tried as an adult.

I think the same should apply to this mother. She should receive whatever the penalty is for killing another person. I never stated that they should lock her up and throw away the key. If her sentence is 15, 25, or life, that's what she should serve. Just as other killers do with mental conditions.

She shouldn't receive the penalty for killing because she didn't kill her baby at free will. She didn't know what she was doing because she couldn't control her actions. Its not like she said "I wanna kill my baby" and she does. She didn't know what she was doing.

Originally posted by mr roper
And whether its an excuse or not, it is no defense for murder. This whole thread has turned into this poor woman well what about the poor baby. Thats the trouble with this society today. Nobody wants to take responsibility for their own actions.

Actually, insanity is a defense. I've said before that the baby is the victim.

Originally posted by Avril's Sk8er Boi
She shouldn't receive the penalty for killing because she didn't kill her baby at free will. She didn't know what she was doing because she couldn't control her actions. Its not like she said "I wanna kill my baby" and she does. She didn't know what she was doing.
So should all murderers who were delusional and not responsible for their actions, such as Son of Sam, Mark David Chapman...and others who hear voices urging them to kill, should they be set free?

I think she did know what she was doing. I imagine the baby's screams alerted her to what she was doing. She told the 911 dispatcher what she had done. I don't doubt for one minute that she's got a mental condition. No normal person would commit such a heinous act.

The insanity defense is rarely used. Andrea Yates, who had post-partum depression and drowned her five small sons, was convicted of capital murder. Her insanity plea was rejected. She too had called the police after the murders and told them what she had done.

http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/p020452.html

Public perceptions are that the insanity defense occurs far more commonly than records indicate. In fact, the insanity defense is used in less than 1% of criminal proceedings and is successful in approximately one-quarter of those cases. Furthermore, defendants who are found insane spend as much, or more, time in state custody than their criminally convicted counterparts. The media may foster the notion that criminals get away with feigning mental defect, only to be released and recidivate. However, the insanity plea is actually based on a long-standing legal tradition and is rarely successfully completed. In fact, approximately 70% of insanity acquittals result from agreements between opposing attorneys, in which the prosecution agrees that society would be better served by placing the defendant in treatment, rather than in prison.

Originally posted by Janice
So should all murderers who were delusional and not responsible for their actions, such as Son of Sam, Mark David Chapman...and others who hear voices urging them to kill, should they be set free?

I think she did know what she was doing. I imagine the baby's screams alerted her to what she was doing. She told the 911 dispatcher what she had done. I don't doubt for one minute that she's got a mental condition. No normal person would commit such a heinous act.

No they shouldn't, they should be sent to a mental hospital and get as much help and treatment as possible. People go to jail to learn what they did wrong, and if they had a mental condition and no control over their actions they won't learn a single lesson.

If she really has psychosis then she wouldn't be able to comprehend the baby's screams. She obviously didn't do it on purpose because nobody who knew what they were doing would report themselves like she did. OJ Simpson didn't have a mental condition and he killed 2 people, so it doesn't always work that way.

Originally posted by Janice
The insanity defense is rarely used. Andrea Yates, who had post-partum depression and drowned her five small sons, was convicted of capital murder. Her insanity plea was rejected. She too had called the police after the murders and told them what she had done.

http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/p020452.html

Public perceptions are that the insanity defense occurs far more commonly than records indicate. In fact, the insanity defense is used in less than 1% of criminal proceedings and is successful in approximately one-quarter of those cases. Furthermore, defendants who are found insane spend as much, or more, time in state custody than their criminally convicted counterparts. The media may foster the notion that criminals get away with feigning mental defect, only to be released and recidivate. However, the insanity plea is actually based on a long-standing legal tradition and is rarely successfully completed. In fact, approximately 70% of insanity acquittals result from agreements between opposing attorneys, in which the prosecution agrees that society would be better served by placing the defendant in treatment, rather than in prison.

I know that it's rarely used, but my point was that it IS used as a defense.

Originally posted by Janice
So should all murderers who were delusional and not responsible for their actions, such as Son of Sam, Mark David Chapman...and others who hear voices urging them to kill, should they be set free?

I think she did know what she was doing. I imagine the baby's screams alerted her to what she was doing. She told the 911 dispatcher what she had done. I don't doubt for one minute that she's got a mental condition. No normal person would commit such a heinous act.

They shouldn't be set free. They should have to stay in a mental hospital for the duration of their sentence.

Originally posted by Avril's Sk8er Boi
No they shouldn't, they should be sent to a mental hospital and get as much help and treatment as possible. People go to jail to learn what they did wrong, and if they had a mental condition and no control over their actions they won't learn a single lesson.

If she really has psychosis then she wouldn't be able to comprehend the baby's screams. She obviously didn't do it on purpose because nobody who knew what they were doing would report themselves like she did. OJ Simpson didn't have a mental condition and he killed 2 people, so it doesn't always work that way.
I think murderers in prison are where they should be. The ones who have mental disorders and no control over their actions should get help, then serve out their sentence.

Still don't agree that she didn't know what she was doing. In Andrea Yates's case, after she had drowned four of her sons, the oldest ran away, yet she had the presence of mind to chase him through the house and drag him to the tub and his death. She definitely had post-partum. In fact, she suffered a terrible episode after the birth of her fourth child and doctors advised her against having a fifth child. She and he husband took a chance, and it ended in disaster.

As for OJ Simpson, I do think he has a mental condition. I think he's nuts.

Originally posted by Avril's Sk8er Boi
She shouldn't receive the penalty for killing because she didn't kill her baby at free will. She didn't know what she was doing because she couldn't control her actions. Its not like she said "I wanna kill my baby" and she does. She didn't know what she was doing.

Then how about an involentary man slaughter charge??? Just like what would happen in a traffic accident. Didn't mean to do it but will get punished anyway. Get treatment in the hospital then serve out the involentary sentence.

Originally posted by Janice
That's uncalled for. Personal attacks are a violation of rules. Sorry. I get angry.

Originally posted by Don Corleone
Then how about an involentary man slaughter charge??? Just like what would happen in a traffic accident. Didn't mean to do it but will get punished anyway. Get treatment in the hospital then serve out the involentary sentence.

I think that's actually a good idea, only have her serve her sentence in a hospital, and make sure she's at least 99% better before letting her out.

Originally posted by *A TV People*
Sorry. I get angry.
I know. We all get passionate on heated debates.

Originally posted by Don Corleone
Noew you are talking about 2 different situation. A mental situation as compared to a learned situation as by your example of environment. These have nothing in common. You CAN get mentally ill by the way you're brought up. Say someone's treated like **** their whole life, are they ever going to be thinking correctly? Is being bad ever going to be wrong to them? That's not normal, to me, and therefore a sickness.

Originally posted by laceyinthesky
I think that's actually a good idea, only have her serve her sentence in a hospital, and make sure she's at least 99% better before letting her out.


If she is all of the sudden better 2 years into her sentence she needs to finish the rest of it in regular prision. She should not skate because she's well. A driver wouldn't get off on his accident that killed someone.

Is it that hard to grasp the fact that she had no control over what she was doing? Are you all even reading what we have to say? You keep saying over and over that she is responsible for it. It is a fact that she has psychosis and it is a fact because of her psychosis she could not control what she was doing. She was UNCONSCIOUS.

I'm posting this again.

What Is Psychosis?

Psychosis, in psychological language, is a condition in which a person isn't in contact with reality like most people.

Psychosis can take many forms, it can include:

Sensing things that aren't really there (called Hallucinations)
Having beliefs that aren't based on reality (called Delusions)
Problems in thinking clearly (e.g. thought insertion, withdrawal, block, broadcasting)
Not realising that there is anything wrong with themselves (called lack of insight)
In Psychiatry there are a number of disorders that come under the general title of the psychoses. They all differ in symptoms, but all are joined in the fact that the person is in someway not experiencing reality like most people.

These are:

Schizophrenia
Schizoaffective Disorder
Manic-Depression (Bipolar Disorder)
Mania
Delusional (Paranoid) Disorders
Psychotic Depression

People suffering with a long-term psychosis often have problems looking after themselves, and getting on well with other people.

What Causes It

No one really knows, pretty much every possible suggestion has been made throughout the years. Some popular theories include:

You inherit it (through your DNA)
You have a 'wiring problem' in your brain
You have a chemical imbalance in your brain/body
You get too anxious or stressed
It's a psychological defence mechanism
any combination of the above

Although we know psychosis can be brought on in some people by:

Using Illegal Drugs (e.g. cannabis, LSD)
Infections (e.g. Menningitis)
Brain Tumours (Cancer)
Epilepsy
Head Injuries


What Treatment Is There?
Psychosis has been shown to respond well to treatments such as antipsychotic medication, and more recently Cognitive-Behavioural Therapy has been suggested as working well. Family and Group therapies are often suggested as working well with certain individuals.

Despite providing quite useful ways of thinking about psychosis, traditional Psychodynamic therapies are generally not thought to work well, and some people even consider them potentially harmful.


Do People Recover?

Some people who experience a psychosis may only experience it once throughout their whole life (this is called a 'single episode'), other people may have problems with it for the rest of their lives.

Originally posted by *A TV People*
You CAN get mentally ill by the way you're brought up. Say someone's treated like **** their whole life, are they ever going to be thinking correctly? Is being bad ever going to be wrong to them? That's not normal, to me, and therefore a sickness.

One is a learned trait the other is a breakdown of your mental well being. It's 2 different things.

Originally posted by Don Corleone
One is a learned trait the other is a breakdown of your mental well being. It's 2 different things. But what I mean is, neither of them are the person's fault.

Originally posted by *A TV People*
But what I mean is, neither of them are the person's fault.

You can choose whether to follow what you have been taught. People do that in life all the time.

Originally posted by Don Corleone
You can choose whether to follow what you have been taught. People do that in life all the time. If you're damaged as a child there's little you can do to try and change that, especially if you don't want to. People don't want to because they think what they're doing is right.

Originally posted by safety pin
Is it that hard to grasp the fact that she had no control over what she was doing? Are you all even reading what we have to say? You keep saying over and over that she is responsible for it. It is a fact that she has psychosis and it is a fact because of her psychosis she could not control what she was doing. She was UNCONSCIOUS.

I'm posting this again.

They're just conveniently ignoring it.

Originally posted by *A TV People*
If you're damaged as a child there's little you can do to try and change that, especially if you don't want to. People don't want to because they think what they're doing is right.

I don't buy that. If you are a sane person you can change your life. How many stories have we heard about how bad people had it when they were young and they turned it around and became productive members of society.

Originally posted by Don Corleone
You can choose whether to follow what you have been taught. People do that in life all the time.
You haven't the slightest idea what you're talking about. :rolleyes: Read the info i posted, please.

Although we know psychosis can be brought on in some people by:
Using Illegal Drugs (e.g. cannabis, LSD)
Infections (e.g. Menningitis)
Brain Tumours (Cancer)
Epilepsy
Head Injuries

Yes, using illegal drugs, is on there, but you don't know what caused her to have it. You don't know a damn thing about psychosis and you have no right to judge whether people have control over it or not, because they don't. You've never had it. I would love to see you have it and not do one crazy thing. As far as being raised, who says her parents were good? There ARE parents who teach their children wrong.

Originally posted by laceyinthesky
They're just conveniently ignoring it.


I thin I've given a good example of what should be done about the crime-involutary manslaughter.

Originally posted by Don Corleone
I don't buy that. If you are a sane person you can change your life. How many stories have we heard about how bad people had it when they were young and they turned it around and became productive members of society. Everyone's different. Some can and some can't. And people arn't sane when they're destroyed as human beings.

Originally posted by Don Corleone
I thin I've given a good example of what should be done about the crime-involutary manslaughter.
You're ignoring important facts i bring up and keep saying the same thing after i've proven you wrong.

Originally posted by safety pin
You haven't the slightest idea what you're talking about. :rolleyes: Read the info i posted, please.

Although we know psychosis can be brought on in some people by:
Using Illegal Drugs (e.g. cannabis, LSD)
Infections (e.g. Menningitis)
Brain Tumours (Cancer)
Epilepsy
Head Injuries

Yes, using illegal drugs, is on there, but you don't know what caused her to have it. You don't know a damn thing about psychosis and you have no right to judge whether people have control over it or not, because they don't. You've never had it. I would love to see you have it and not do one crazy thing. As far as being raised, who says her parents were good? There ARE parents who teach their children wrong.


And you are not following what is being talked about. We are not talking about the main subject. We are talking about a hypothetical subject. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by *A TV People*
Everyone's different. Some can and some can't. And people arn't sane when they're destroyed as human beings.

What do you considered destroyed???

Originally posted by Don Corleone
Get treatment in the hospital then serve out the involentary sentence.

If you were mentally insane with psychosis, and you commited a murder not knowing what you were doing, then you got help and recovered, you wouldn't still say that:rolleyes:

nobody should be punished for something they have no control of whatsoever!!

Originally posted by Don Corleone
I don't buy that. If you are a sane person you can change your life. How many stories have we heard about how bad people had it when they were young and they turned it around and became productive members of society.
not everyone can. and that's a fact.

Originally posted by Don Corleone
I don't buy that. If you are a sane person you can change your life. How many stories have we heard about how bad people had it when they were young and they turned it around and became productive members of society.

just because you probably can doesn't mean everyone else can, and you fail to understand that.

Originally posted by Don Corleone
What do you considered destroyed??? As a child, at the beginning of your life...all you see and all you're taught is bad. It becomes implanted in that person's head, how can they know anything else? You think everyone is fortunate enough to be able to fix it, or to even know how to? They're not.

Originally posted by safety pin
You're ignoring important facts i bring up and keep saying the same thing after i've proven you wrong.

I'm not argueing your point that she did not know what she was doing. Just like a person accedentily killed someone with their car they can get charged with involutary man slaughter. Meaning they did not mean to do it. Which would fit this criime just right.

Originally posted by Don Corleone
And you are not following what is being talked about. We are not talking about the main subject. We are talking about a hypothetical subject. :rolleyes:
You said that it's the person's fault that they have psychosis because "they didn't follow what they were taught". I told you what causes it.

What you seem to be ignoring is the fact that she had no control over it. You're just avoiding it. What about the guy who unconsciously killed his fiance's parents in his sleep? He couldn't believe what he'd did once he woke up and found out. Was that his fault too?

Originally posted by Don Corleone
I'm not argueing your point that she did not know what she was doing. Just like a person accedentily killed someone with their car they can get charged with involutary man slaughter. Meaning they did not mean to do it. Which would fit this criime just right. When people know what they're doing, it probably isn't a mental illness...it's probably the other issue, which is state of life and how they were brought up. No healthy, happy person is going to kill someone.

Originally posted by Don Corleone
I'm not argueing your point that she did not know what she was doing. Just like a person accedentily killed someone with their car they can get charged with involutary man slaughter. Meaning they did not mean to do it. Which would fit this criime just right.
HELLO? IT WASN'T AN "ACCIDENT"! SHE WAS UNCONSCIOUS! She literally didn't know that she was killing her baby until afterward when she called 911!

Read my post, please.

Psychosis can take many forms, it can include:

Sensing things that aren't really there (called Hallucinations)
Having beliefs that aren't based on reality (called Delusions)
Problems in thinking clearly (e.g. thought insertion, withdrawal, block, broadcasting)
Not realising that there is anything wrong with themselves (called lack of insight)

There was nothing she could do. Those thoughts are entirely NATURAL and SHE HAD NO CONTROL.

Originally posted by safety pin
You said that it's the person's fault that they have psychosis because "they didn't follow what they were taught". I told you what causes it.

What you seem to be ignoring is the fact that she had no control over it. You're just avoiding it. What about the guy who unconsciously killed his fiance's parents in his sleep? He couldn't believe what he'd did once he woke up and found out. Was that his fault too?


I never said what you quoted. Show me the story about the sleepwalker. I would like to read about this.

Originally posted by safety pin
HELLO? IT WASN'T AN "ACCIDENT"! SHE WAS UNCONSCIOUS! She literally didn't know that she was killing her baby until afterward when she called 911!

Read my post, please.

Psychosis can take many forms, it can include:

Sensing things that aren't really there (called Hallucinations)
Having beliefs that aren't based on reality (called Delusions)
Problems in thinking clearly (e.g. thought insertion, withdrawal, block, broadcasting)
Not realising that there is anything wrong with themselves (called lack of insight)

There was nothing she could do.

he wouldn't be thinking that way if he had psychosis.

Originally posted by Don Corleone
I never said what you quoted. Show me the story about the sleepwalker. I would like to read about this.
You never said what i quoted?

You replied to this post:

Originally posted by *A TV People*
But what I mean is, neither of them are the person's fault.

with this:

Originally posted by Don Corleone
You can choose whether to follow what you have been taught. People do that in life all the time.

And i just told you the whole story of the sleepwalker.

1. He fell asleep.
2. He began sleepwalking. He was totally unaware of everything he doing before he woke up.
3. He drove to his fiance's parents' house.
4. He shot them.
5. He woke up, found out what he did, and was in shock and couldn't believe what he'd just done.

Originally posted by safety pin
HELLO? IT WASN'T AN "ACCIDENT"! SHE WAS UNCONSCIOUS! She literally didn't know that she was killing her baby until afterward when she called 911!

Read my post, please.

Psychosis can take many forms, it can include:

Sensing things that aren't really there (called Hallucinations)
Having beliefs that aren't based on reality (called Delusions)
Problems in thinking clearly (e.g. thought insertion, withdrawal, block, broadcasting)
Not realising that there is anything wrong with themselves (called lack of insight)

There was nothing she could do. Those thoughts are entirely NATURAL and SHE HAD NO CONTROL.


And we've heard you scream this the first ten thousand time. Enough with the bold crap. And enough with how we make you sick. Why even respond if you just keep getting pissed.

Originally posted by Don Corleone
And we've heard you scream this the first ten thousand time. Enough with the bold crap. And enough with how we make you sick. Why even respond if you just keep getting pissed.

if you'd get the message she's trying to get across through your closed minded head then she wouldn't have to do that:rolleyes:

Originally posted by Don Corleone
And we've heard you scream this the first ten thousand time. Enough with the bold crap. And enough with how we make you sick. Why even respond if you just keep getting pissed.
I kept "screaming" because you keep avoiding commenting about her being unconscious and therefore having no control over what she was doing. You're just ignoring that fact and repeating other facts i've already proven wrong.

Originally posted by Avril's Sk8er Boi
if you'd get the message she's trying to get across through your closed minded head then she wouldn't have to do that:rolleyes:
Exactly.

Originally posted by safety pin
You never said what i quoted?

You replied to this post:



with this:



And i just told you the whole story of the sleepwalker.

1. He fell asleep.
2. He began sleepwalking. He was totally unaware of everything he doing before he woke up.
3. He drove to his fiance's parents' house.
4. He shot them.
5. He woke up, found out what he did, and was in shock and couldn't believe what he'd just done.


"You CAN get mentally ill by the way you're brought up. Say someone's treated like **** their whole life, are they ever going to be thinking correctly? Is being bad ever going to be wrong to them? That's not normal, to me, and therefore a sickness."

This is what I was being talk about when I made that statement. We were talking about the difference in learn traits and mental problems. Go back and reread.

How about a link somewere to the sleepwalker story instead of just hearsay.

The American Medical Association (AMA) recognizes alcoholism as a disease. If an alcoholic, who by definition, cannot control their craving for alcohol and has no control over their ability to stop drinking....if this person gets drunk to the point of a blackout as many often do, and they drive and kill someone, or even a family...does this person get a pass?

They've got a legitimate disease, have no control over their actions, and don't even remember driving, much less killing anyone. What's their punishment? Rehab?

Originally posted by safety pin
I kept "screaming" because you keep avoiding commenting about her being unconscious and therefore having no control over what she was doing. You're just ignoring that fact and repeating other facts i've already proven wrong.


So lets hear your outstanding plan for what should be done with people with mental issues that have no idea what they were doing when they cut off an 11 month old babies arms???

Originally posted by Don Corleone
You CAN get mentally ill by the way you're brought up. Say someone's treated like **** their whole life, are they ever going to be thinking correctly? Is being bad ever going to be wrong to them? That's not normal, to me, and therefore a sickness.

This is what I was being talk about when I made that statement. We were talking about the difference in learn traits and mental problems. Go back and reread.

How about a link somewere to the sleepwalker story instead of just hearsay.

and yet again, you ignore what she was trying to say because you can't prove it wrong.

Originally posted by Avril's Sk8er Boi
and yet again, you ignore what she was trying to say because you can't prove it wrong.


Are you going to offer anything worth while to this discussion or just put in your little smartass comments every now and then???

Originally posted by Don Corleone
You CAN get mentally ill by the way you're brought up. Say someone's treated like **** their whole life, are they ever going to be thinking correctly? Is being bad ever going to be wrong to them? That's not normal, to me, and therefore a sickness.

This is what I was being talk about when I made that statement. We were talking about the difference in learn traits and mental problems. Go back and reread.

How about a link somewere to the sleepwalker story instead of just hearsay.
I know you can get mentally ill that way. It's partly how my depression has gotten as severe as it has (but that wouldn't be an excuse for killing anyone.) If it's how the lady became mentally ill, it wasn't her fault. The first year of a child's life is when they learn the rules of the world. If they're taught that hitting is alright, there's no way in their whole life that they're going to thinnk that's not correct. Once the way you think is set, it won't change.

The sleepwalker story was on new detectives, i didn't read it on the internet. If you don't believe me, then just assume that it's true. Would it be his fault?

Originally posted by Don Corleone
Are you going to offer anything worth while to this discussion or just put in your little smartass comments every now and then???

I offered worthwhile comments into this thread, thank you very much:rolleyes: but you're so stubborn that you skipped right over them just to make that smartass comment.

Originally posted by Don Corleone
Are you going to offer anything worth while to this discussion or just put in your little smartass comments every now and then???
That was a valid point he made, and once again, you're ignoring it. You aren't saying anything worthwhile. You either 1) repeat facts and ignore posts that have proven them wrong, or 2) comment on the way we reply to posts.

Originally posted by safety pin
That was a valid point he made, and once again, you're ignoring it.

I'm starting to think that no matter how much we try to get our valid points across to him, he won't listen.

Originally posted by Janice
That's uncalled for. Personal attacks are a violation of rules.

That's ok, if she can't handle a civilized argument without acting like a child, then it's not worth continuing.

Originally posted by Brian Damage
That's ok, if she can't handle a civilized argument without acting like a child, then it's not worth continuing.

so everyone who uses personal attacks in an argument is acting like a child? :grr:

Originally posted by Avril's Sk8er Boi
so everyone who uses personal attacks in an argument is acting like a child? :grr:
On this board, anyone who personally attacks anyone is breaking the rules. No name-calling.

Originally posted by Janice
On this board, anyone who personally attacks anyone is breaking the rules. No name-calling.

I agree :nod: but I don't think its acting like a child (like brian damage said), since some people are so aggravated they can't help it.

yes it is.

Ok, let's say that she's taken to a mental hospital for a few years, and she gets "better." How can any one be sure enough that she won't do it again? How can you prove she's safe enough to be released to society? Even though a disorder might be to blame, I don't know if you can prove it's gone. Whether a disorder is to blame, the fact is she used her own hands to saw off a baby's arms. I'm not saying put her behind bars for life, I'm saying keeping her in the hospital, under close supervision, is the best thing to do for the remainder of her life.

Maybe she didnt know what she was doing, but than why didnt she get help before she killed the baby?

She deserves some type of punishment....

Originally posted by RurryMicelli
Maybe she didnt know what she was doing, but than why didnt she get help before she killed the baby?

She deserves some type of punishment....

Here's what I don't understand. If she didn't understand what she was doing then why when she called 9-1-1 did she tell the operator EXACTLY what she did? She could have said "Oh my baby is bleeding to death", but instead she said "I cut it's arms off".

I'm sorry... lock her up and throw away the key. :livid: :mad:

Originally posted by Brent88
Here's what I don't understand. If she didn't understand what she was doing then why when she called 9-1-1 did she tell the operator EXACTLY what she did? She could have said "Oh my baby is bleeding to death", but instead she said "I cut it's arms off".



I was confused about that, too.

Originally posted by Don Corleone
I think they said she was going with the post-partum(?) syndrome. That seems to be the choice of excuse these days when a mother does something horrible to her children.

:nod: It's sad, because people will use that as an excuse so long, that people will get tired of hearing it, and then someone who really has it will not get the treatment she needs because people will think she's using it as an excuse.

Originally posted by laceyinthesky
Nobody said you have to feel bad for her. She needed help before this happened. Since what she did can't be helped now, the least we can do is learn from this and help others with the same condition long before something like this happens.

That's EXACTLY what I was trying to say. From hearing about certain disorders on this board from other users, it's obvious that if people have mental problems/disorders they are quite aware of it. So she should've gotten help or got someone to get her help if she couldn't afford it. That's pretty selfish of her not to get help, because her child's life was in danger. I'm sorry but if you are thinking about murdering your own child, there is obvioulsy a problem with you and it needs to be fixed.

Originally posted by crystals
Robert Bardo who shot Rebecca Schaeffer was schizophrenic. So, are you saying that he shouldn't have been held accountable for his actions?

:clap:

Oh wow, I was going to stay out of this thread, but I do feel compelled to speak about the controversial subject going on here.

When I think of this story, all I really think about is that poor little baby having to suffer through one of the worst things possible that could happen to an infant. It makes me physically ill. I'm sure we all feel this way. The fact that the mother's mental state is being discussed so heavily is not because those educated on mental illness care more for her than her dead child. She's getting the attention here because the issue is so controversial and so complicated. What happened to her baby was a horrific tragedy and we can't fill pages on that. We do however, have a lot to say about this mother, and that's why the thread has turned out like it has.

There is no doubt that anyone who commits a henious crime such as murder has something wrong with them. The question is what exactly is wrong with them. It can't always be determined. Most who are guilty deserve to be in prison. But there are, in fact, cases where someone had a specific affliction so debilitating, so uncontrolable that they are truely not aware of what they have done. I'm not speaking specifically on this mother's case, because I don't know all the details. She does certainly sound like one with post-partum psychosis though. Do you all realize what psychosis is? You are using examples such as Charles Manson, who we all know is "nuts." But he does not have psychosis. Many, like Charles Manson suffer from antisocial personality disorder (sociopaths) and no mental instution would rehabilitate him. People like him belong in prison. People who have commited crimes who were unaware of what they did deserve adequate care in a mental institution. Personally, as a non-expert, I would want this mother to be in an institution her whole life. However, I'm not a specialist in psychiatry or psychology so I cannot tell you how long I think those kinds of people need to be "locked up." (It would vary by each case anyways.) But I want you all to know the difference between all mental disorders. That is very important.

Originally posted by Cashodeen
Oh wow, I was going to stay out of this thread, but I do feel compelled to speak about the controversial subject going on here.

When I think of this story, all I really think about is that poor little baby having to suffer through one of the worst things possible that could happen to an infant. It makes me physically ill. I'm sure we all feel this way. The fact that the mother's mental state is being discussed so heavily is not because those educated on mental illness care more for her than her dead child. She's getting the attention here because the issue is so controversial and so complicated. What happened to her baby was a horrific tragedy and we can't fill pages on that. We do however, have a lot to say about this mother, and that's why the thread has turned out like it has.

There is no doubt that anyone who commits a henious crime such as murder has something wrong with them. The question is what exactly is wrong with them. It can't always be determined. Most who are guilty deserve to be in prison. But there are, in fact, cases where someone had a specific affliction so debilitating, so uncontrolable that they are truely not aware of what they have done. I'm not speaking specifically on this mother's case, because I don't know all the details. She does certainly sound like one with post-partum psychosis though. Do you all realize what psychosis is? You are using examples such as Charles Manson, who we all know is "nuts." But he does not have psychosis. Many, like Charles Manson suffer from antisocial personality disorder (sociopaths) and no mental instution would rehabilitate him. People like him belong in prison. People who have commited crimes who were unaware of what they did deserve adequate care in a mental institution. Personally, as a non-expert, I would want this mother to be in an institution her whole life. However, I'm not a specialist in psychiatry or psychology so I cannot tell you how long I think those kinds of people need to be "locked up." (It would vary by each case anyways.) But I want you all to know the difference between all mental disorders. That is very important.

Very eloquent. I decided I'd bow out once the personal attacks started being hurled (on both sides)...but what you say is very true, and you touched on something that none of us has fully acknowledged, namely, that we are NOT experts and our analyses are bound to be flawed.
I was also thinking, as I was getting ready for class today, that, like you, I don't think that EVERYONE with any sort of disorder needs to be absolved of their crimes, which is what I think the opposing side seems to presume. I think the degree, intensity, and kind of disorder needs to be carefully analysed by a number of professionals, which will doubtlessly happen.
Also, thank you for pointing out the difference between APD and psychosis.

Again, thank you for so eloquently pointing out that which has been neglected or glossed over.

Originally posted by Brent88
Here's what I don't understand. If she didn't understand what she was doing then why when she called 9-1-1 did she tell the operator EXACTLY what she did? She could have said "Oh my baby is bleeding to death", but instead she said "I cut it's arms off".

I'm sorry... lock her up and throw away the key. :livid: :mad:
Because apparently she was still having the psychotic episode when she called 911. If she murdered the baby at her own will, you'd think she'd try to cover it up and play innocent.

And people, i've said this several times now, but who says she didn't have help? Who says she could afford it in the first place? That could have been the case, as well as her having help but no success. It does happen. Therapies and medications don't always work, and if that was the case for her, chances are they hadn't realized it yet.

Honestly, you guys are making way too many judgments for not knowing a thing about psychosis and what it does to the brain, let alone mental illnesses and treatments in general..

Originally posted by skyhigh25789
:clap:
If killing her was a result of his schizophrenia, it wouldn't have been his fault.

You guys, these illnesses don't make you just want to do things. They make you do them regardless of whether or not you choose to. When you're having an episode of psychosis, schizophrenia etc, you are under complete control of whatever it does to you. You can't stop or change what you're doing.

If any of you guys had psychosis, you'd be doing crazy things too. Let me tell you that. There's no argument about it. If you say "well i'll make sure i know what i'm doing!" then you really don't know what psychosis is in the first place and have no right to make such judgments. you just don't know a thing about it.

Originally posted by Janice
The American Medical Association (AMA) recognizes alcoholism as a disease. If an alcoholic, who by definition, cannot control their craving for alcohol and has no control over their ability to stop drinking....if this person gets drunk to the point of a blackout as many often do, and they drive and kill someone, or even a family...does this person get a pass?

They've got a legitimate disease, have no control over their actions, and don't even remember driving, much less killing anyone. What's their punishment? Rehab?
Well, actually, rehabilitation is a part of their court order most of the time. At least in this state. But besides that, they do need to be imprisoned for their actions.

I never said that I didn't want her to have any consequences for her actions. I want her to not only get the treatment for her illness, but also serve a sentence as well.

It would be pointless to stick her in prison without any treatment. That's just my opinion. (Obvioiusly.)

Originally posted by Pirate Jenny
Very eloquent. I decided I'd bow out once the personal attacks started being hurled (on both sides)...but what you say is very true, and you touched on something that none of us has fully acknowledged, namely, that we are NOT experts and our analyses are bound to be flawed.
I was also thinking, as I was getting ready for class today, that, like you, I don't think that EVERYONE with any sort of disorder needs to be absolved of their crimes, which is what I think the opposing side seems to presume. I think the degree, intensity, and kind of disorder needs to be carefully analysed by a number of professionals, which will doubtlessly happen.
Also, thank you for pointing out the difference between APD and psychosis.

Again, thank you for so eloquently pointing out that which has been neglected or glossed over. Thank you very much. I've been very impressed with what you have had to say as well as the others here who have given insight to mental health issues.

The American Medical Association (AMA) recognizes alcoholism as a disease. If an alcoholic, who by definition, cannot control their craving for alcohol and has no control over their ability to stop drinking....if this person gets drunk to the point of a blackout as many often do, and they drive and kill someone, or even a family...does this person get a pass?

They've got a legitimate disease, have no control over their actions, and don't even remember driving, much less killing anyone. What's their punishment? Rehab?
That's a good question. I'd say they should go to rehab first and then serve time in prison. It is possible to stop drinking without any professional help, but i know it would be extremely difficult. I know how addictions can be and it almost feels wrong to say that it's their own fault, but nothing is physically forcing the alcohol down their throat. Unless the lady developed her psychosis by doing drugs, it's not her fault she has that condition and the effects it has on her.

Originally posted by Janice
The American Medical Association (AMA) recognizes alcoholism as a disease. If an alcoholic, who by definition, cannot control their craving for alcohol and has no control over their ability to stop drinking....if this person gets drunk to the point of a blackout as many often do, and they drive and kill someone, or even a family...does this person get a pass?

They've got a legitimate disease, have no control over their actions, and don't even remember driving, much less killing anyone. What's their punishment? Rehab? We actually talked about this in my english class the other day. It is a disease and everything, but it was still their choice to start drinking in the first place. But then there's the whole genetics thing....If your grandpa and your dad was an alcoholic, you're probably going to be an alcoholic too. I think people like that should get help before it gets out of hand. If you know you have a problem, get help for it before you end up hurting other people.

After thinking matters over it is apparent to me that this wack job should have some time to get her head in order, let's rehabilitate her and get her back into the world and let her know, hey, it don't bother us none that ya cut off a baby's arms and let her die in agony and absolute confusion.

Hey, you know what?

Apparently all the people who support so-called impared people and are against the death penalty are all people who have issues with the fact that they might do something really nuts, or, have nothing better to do than lament the fact that life dealt them a crappy hand, so child dismemberment is OK, in fact it's okey dokey.

If you have forgotten how to feel, or all you feel is bitterness and self-righteous crap, your opinion is null and void and good luck in prison or six feet under.

You cut off a baby's arms you should die. End of story.
I have no need for you in my society when you get well.

Originally posted by dlemond


Apparently all the people who support so-called impared people and are against the death penalty are all people who have issues with the fact that they might do something really nuts, or, have nothing better to do than lament the fact that life dealt them a crappy hand, so child dismemberment is OK, in fact it's okey dokey.

If you have forgotten how to feel, or all you feel is bitterness and self-righteous crap, your opinion is null and void

You cut off a baby's arms you should die. End of story.
I have no need for you in my society when you get well.

Well said. :clap: :clap:

oh good christ, thanks a lot for bumping up this thread.

i'm really not in the mood for explaining for the 10,000th time why it wasn't the lady's fault. those of you who think think it was her fault (meaning you apparently think she chose to have her mental condition and chose the effects it has on her) don't know what you're talking about and are missing out on a lot of important facts. period. why don't you do some damn research on psychosis. you don't know what psychosis does to the brain. you don't know a damn thing about it, and you have no right to be making your dumb ass judgments.

Originally posted by dlemond
After thinking matters over it is apparent to me that this wack job should have some time to get her head in order, let's rehabilitate her and get her back into the world and let her know, hey, it don't bother us none that ya cut off a baby's arms and let her die in agony and absolute confusion.

Hey, you know what?

Apparently all the people who support so-called impared people and are against the death penalty are all people who have issues with the fact that they might do something really nuts, or, have nothing better to do than lament the fact that life dealt them a crappy hand, so child dismemberment is OK, in fact it's okey dokey.

If you have forgotten how to feel, or all you feel is bitterness and self-righteous crap, your opinion is null and void and good luck in prison or six feet under.

You cut off a baby's arms you should die. End of story.
I have no need for you in my society when you get well.
She didn't choose to do it and there was nothing she could do about it.

This is all no different than blaming an epileptic person for having seizures, or someone with social anxiety for being nervous. NO DIFFERENT. Please, you guys. Understand that psychosis doesn't just give you the urge to do crazy things. It makes you do them - whether you want to or not.

You're being nothing but prejudice. What makes YOUR opinions correct and what gives you the right to ridicule people who don't agree with you? What makes you think that your outrageous generalizations of people with certain beliefs are true? I'm sorry, but you're seriously being discriminative.

Originally posted by dlemond

Apparently all the people who support so-called impared people and are against the death penalty are all people who have issues with the fact that they might do something really nuts, or, have nothing better to do than lament the fact that life dealt them a crappy hand, so child dismemberment is OK, in fact it's okey dokey.


Apparently you're really big on making over-generalisations, because NONE of us ever said that child dismemberment is okay.

Guess what? The entire world does not exist in black and white. There is a complete spectrum, and making such broad generalisations is about as effective as taking a gun, closing your eyes, and shooting in the general direction of a target.

Most of the people in this thread have explained their thoughts (whatever they be) rationally and without making broad accusations at the opposing group. Your post, however, achieves nothing other than to say "I'm right, you're wrong, you're opinion doesn't count, I hope you die."

Originally posted by dlemond
After thinking matters over it is apparent to me that this wack job should have some time to get her head in order, let's rehabilitate her and get her back into the world and let her know, hey, it don't bother us none that ya cut off a baby's arms and let her die in agony and absolute confusion.

Hey, you know what?

Apparently all the people who support so-called impared people and are against the death penalty are all people who have issues with the fact that they might do something really nuts, or, have nothing better to do than lament the fact that life dealt them a crappy hand, so child dismemberment is OK, in fact it's okey dokey.

If you have forgotten how to feel, or all you feel is bitterness and self-righteous crap, your opinion is null and void and good luck in prison or six feet under.

You cut off a baby's arms you should die. End of story.
I have no need for you in my society when you get well.

First of all, that post was nothing but cold and bitter, and prejudiced against things you don't understand. So I'm going to say it to you, and if you don't get it, you're missing out.

SHE DIDN'T CHOOSE HER MENTAL PROBLEM OR ITS EFFECTS ON HER. SHE HAD 0% CONTROL OVER HER ACTIONS!

You're missing out on valid facts because what you want is to be right. Basically you're saying nobodys opinion but yours matters. It's no different than if a person with seizures was cutting food in the kitchen and they suddenly started having a seizure. But someone was next to them and with no control over their actions they accidentally stabbed the person. Is it the person's fault with seizures that they have epilepsy and the other person just happened to be standing there? THINK ABOUT IT.

Originally posted by AllIWantIsYourClutch
I think people like that should get help before it gets out of hand. If you know you have a problem, get help for it before you end up hurting other people. Exactly.

Originally posted by Jen1989
This is NOT an old thread. It was posted 11-23-2004 08:16 AM and I replied to it 11-28-2004 12:00 AM. It was the first thread on the second page. The thread was only approx. five days old. It's not like it was a thread from a few years ago. I haven't bumped up anything in a while. Considering this thread wasn't even a week old, why are you having a cow? By the way, I wasn't here when the thread was first posted, so I had every right to reply to it. How many times must it be said that there is NOT a rule against replying to threads, whether they are new or old.
oh good god, i wasn't saying it like it was a board rule. it was personally irritating me because i have to keep trying to get it through peoples heads that it wasn't the lady's fault. i was glad when it died down.

Originally posted by *AgEnT FaLLoN*
It's no different than if a person with seizures was cutting food in the kitchen and they suddenly started having a seizure. But someone was next to them and with no control over their actions they accidentally stabbed the person. Is it the person's fault with seizures that they have epilepsy and the other person just happened to be standing there? THINK ABOUT IT. [/B]

Doesn't exactly sound like the same thing. A person accidentally stabs another person they're not going to keep stabbing them until they're dead. I think the "mother" should at least get life in prison for what she did to that baby. Or at least maybe mentally ill people shouldn't be allowed to have children because they apparently "have no control over their actions".

Originally posted by crystals
Or at least maybe mentally ill people shouldn't be allowed to have children because they apparently "have no control over their actions".

Once again, this theory is sounding very similar to eugenics. What do we do...forcibly sterilise them? Who decides who is incompetent? Would we have a board of people who would decide whether each individual would be allowed to keep their reproductive organs?

The only time eugenics has ever been seriously considered is in Nazi Germany or in a dystopia novel. It's far too vulnerable to corruption, and borders on the violation of a basic human right.

Originally posted by crystals
they apparently "have no control over their actions".
You don't believe they don't have any control over their actions during an episode of psychosis?

I'm sorry, but you need to do your research before determining what's possible and what's not possible with a condition you know nothing about. The lady had no control over what she was doing. Psychosis takes control of the brain and there's nothing she could have done about it. What was she supposed to do? Just snap out of it when she felt like it?

I was gone for 4 days and certain people responded to me but I'm going to shut up about it. It would be like talking to a brick wall.

Originally posted by Pirate Jenny
Once again, this theory is sounding very similar to eugenics. What do we do...forcibly sterilise them? Who decides who is incompetent? Would we have a board of people who would decide whether each individual would be allowed to keep their reproductive organs?

The only time eugenics has ever been seriously considered is in Nazi Germany or in a dystopia novel. It's far too vulnerable to corruption, and borders on the violation of a basic human right.

I didn't mean "have" in the natural sense, but "have" in the sense that the children are in the mentally ill person's "care".

Do mentally ill people like the mother who cut off her baby's arms have a basic human right to murder a child?

Originally posted by Pirate Jenny
Once again, this theory is sounding very similar to eugenics. What do we do...forcibly sterilise them? Who decides who is incompetent? Would we have a board of people who would decide whether each individual would be allowed to keep their reproductive organs?

The only time eugenics has ever been seriously considered is in Nazi Germany or in a dystopia novel. It's far too vulnerable to corruption, and borders on the violation of a basic human right.

For a large part of the 20th century, patients in American mental hospitals were sterilised. I think it stopped in the 60s or 70s. And it obviously stopped for a reason: it violates a fundamental right.

Also, the Ford Foundation supported (don't know if it still does) efforts to sterilise lower class women in Latin America right after they gave birth - and that was without their consent. That's obviously not an appropriate measure against poverty and overpopulation. Anybody who has any respect for human rights knows that.

Crystals, if you really think certain people shouldn't be allowed to reproduce, then you're basically giving legislators the power to arbitrarily decide who would have to be sterilised. What should determine people's fates? IQ scores? Genetic diseases? Criminal records? Social class? Race? For all you know, you may end up falling under one of those categories.

The humane way to treat these problems is to study these conditions. That way we could actually find cures for them and prevent these tragedies from ever happening.


Don't try to eliminate the effect of the problem. Eliminate the cause.

Originally posted by crystals
I didn't mean "have" in the natural sense, but "have" in the sense that the children are in the mentally ill person's "care".

Do mentally ill people like the mother who cut off her baby's arms have a basic human right to murder a child?

Ok, so where do these newborns who have just been ripped out of their mothers' arms go?
The already crowded orphanages? Into the underfunded foster care system? Also, because PPD/PPS cannot be diagnosed until after the child is born, and could strike anyone, how would you put the plan into effect?

As has been stated before, none of us has said that the mother "had the right" to do what she did to this child. This shouldn't have happened. However, having an outside party decide who would be allowed to parent, and who would have to carry a child, only to have it ripped from them without their consent has far too much of an Orwellian ring to it. The best way to prevent this from happening again would be to cease Postpartum depression/psychosis as a "fake" disease, or one any less serious than epilepsy, multiple sclerosis, or any other biological disorder. Once it is treated as a serious, uncontrollable disease, it can get the funding it needs to be cured and, ultimately prevented.

Like Chambers said, don't try to eliminate the effect of the problem. Eliminate the cause.

Originally posted by crystals
I didn't mean "have" in the natural sense, but "have" in the sense that the children are in the mentally ill person's "care".

Do mentally ill people like the mother who cut off her baby's arms have a basic human right to murder a child?
I'm sorry, but you need to do your research before determining what's possible and what's not possible with a condition you know nothing about. The lady had no control over what she was doing. Psychosis takes control of the brain and there's nothing she could have done about it. What was she supposed to do? Just snap out of it when she felt like it? I'm sorry, but you need to do your research before determining what's possible and what's not possible with a condition you know nothing about. The lady had no control over what she was doing. Psychosis takes control of the brain and there's nothing she could have done about it. What was she supposed to do? Just snap out of it when she felt like it? I'm sorry, but you need to do your research before determining what's possible and what's not possible with a condition you know nothing about. The lady had no control over what she was doing. Psychosis takes control of the brain and there's nothing she could have done about it. What was she supposed to do? Just snap out of it when she felt like it?

Originally posted by Pirate Jenny
Once again, this theory is sounding very similar to eugenics. What do we do...forcibly sterilise them? Who decides who is incompetent? Would we have a board of people who would decide whether each individual would be allowed to keep their reproductive organs?

The only time eugenics has ever been seriously considered is in Nazi Germany or in a dystopia novel. It's far too vulnerable to corruption, and borders on the violation of a basic human right. Eugenics wasn't only seriously considered, but it happened in more ways than one in Nazi Germany. In fact, Hitler was obsessed with it.

Originally posted by Pirate Jenny
Ok, so where do these newborns who have just been ripped out of their mothers' arms go?
The already crowded orphanages? Into the underfunded foster care system? Also, because PPD/PPS cannot be diagnosed until after the child is born, and could strike anyone, how would you put the plan into effect?
Oh yeah, just what the world needs is another child in the foster care system.

Can we please let this thread die? I find it very disheartening to see "Mother cuts off baby's arms" every time I go to the chit chat board.

Originally posted by AKA
Can we please let this thread die? I find it very disheartening to see "Mother cuts off baby's arms" every time I go to the chit chat board. It would be nice.

Originally posted by AKA
Can we please let this thread die? I find it very disheartening to see "Mother cuts off baby's arms" every time I go to the chit chat board.

Well, if this does get closed, I'm gonna stick my 2 cents in first.

First I wanna say I've heard some pretty asinine statments about Texas here. It's not just one state, all states have this problem the national media just seems to like Texas.

Second, I don't know much about this mother or her mental illness. However, I do know about me and MY mental illness. I have depression, before I was officially diagnosed and started trweatment I did so many things that were out of character for myself but that I LITERALLY COULD NOT HELP BUT DO!

When I was finally diagnosed and started treatment I fessed up and took responsibility for everything I had said and done. I still stand by the fact that I could not stop myself, but I am taking responsibility for my actions.

In MY opinion, thats what needs to be done. She needs to be treated, recover, then taske responsibility for what she did.

D

Originally posted by crystals
Doesn't exactly sound like the same thing. A person accidentally stabs another person they're not going to keep stabbing them until they're dead. I think the "mother" should at least get life in prison for what she did to that baby. Or at least maybe mentally ill people shouldn't be allowed to have children because they apparently "have no control over their actions".

It is the same type thing because neither a person with psychosis or epilepsy has any control over their actions. Just because the woman with psychosis put more danger on her baby than someone with seizures could do, she's no more responsible because she couldn't stop herself from doing it..

Originally posted by AKA
Can we please let this thread die? I find it very disheartening to see "Mother cuts off baby's arms" every time I go to the chit chat board. This is the happiest thread I have ever read here. I didn't even expect it to get so much mileage.

I LOOOOVE being thoroughly depressed each morning with stories of psycho moms.:(

Originally posted by Captain ABlairica
This is the happiest thread I have ever read here. I didn't even expect it to get so much mileage.

I LOOOOVE being thoroughly depressed each morning with stories of psycho moms.:(

:rofl:

Originally posted by AKA
Can we please let this thread die? I find it very disheartening to see "Mother cuts off baby's arms" every time I go to the chit chat board.

:banana:

Originally posted by safety pin
I'm sorry, but you need to do your research before determining what's possible and what's not possible with a condition you know nothing about. The lady had no control over what she was doing. Psychosis takes control of the brain and there's nothing she could have done about it. What was she supposed to do? Just snap out of it when she felt like it? I'm sorry, but you need to do your research before determining what's possible and what's not possible with a condition you know nothing about. The lady had no control over what she was doing. Psychosis takes control of the brain and there's nothing she could have done about it. What was she supposed to do? Just snap out of it when she felt like it? I'm sorry, but you need to do your research before determining what's possible and what's not possible with a condition you know nothing about. The lady had no control over what she was doing. Psychosis takes control of the brain and there's nothing she could have done about it. What was she supposed to do? Just snap out of it when she felt like it?

STOP WITH THE LARGE FONT!!!!

Originally posted by Brent88
STOP WITH THE LARGE FONT!!!!
NO!

Originally posted by safety pin
NO!
Sarah, please stop with the huge font. Thanks.

The point I think that some are missing here is that some people are in agreement that a psychosis makes a person do things that they may not even remember or whatever. With that in mind, some think that she still deserves to be punished, myself included.

This is an opinion. There's no absolute right or wrong here. Andrea Yates who drowned her five kids is in prison. So Sarah, and I'm not speaking as a moderator here....you should try not to state your opinion as fact. I believe she had post-partum depression, but should serve her time in a psychiatric hospital.

The debate seems to be about her punishment. Everyone's opinion counts, and not one is an absolute truth. These are opinions.

Can we just lock this topic already, damn!

Originally posted by Desperate_Fan03
Can we just lock this topic already, damn!

I agree... I never expected this to become a 16-page debate when I started it. :(

I haven't kept up on this thread, but are there any fights, personal attacks or other violations going on?

Threads don't get closed because they are long or people don't agree. I think a little healthy debate is good.

Originally posted by Janice
I haven't kept up on this thread, but are there any fights, personal attacks or other violations going on?

Threads don't get closed because they are long or people don't agree. I think a little healthy debate is good.

There haven't been any personal attacks or fights, but I think some of us are tired of having the image of a baby with its arms hacked off in our heads.

Exactly. I don't like thinking about that every time I come to chit chat. This is by the fact that amplified that a 3-year-old girl who I was close to was killed in a violent way by her mom's psychopath boyfriend.

I agree the imagery is disturbing, but it's not in violation.

Whoa! Horrible! Why in the world would the mom cut the baby's arm off?:confused:

Originally posted by josie8940
Whoa! Horrible! Why in the world would the mom cut the baby's arm off?:confused:

read the thread and you'll find out

Originally posted by Janice
Sarah, please stop with the huge font. Thanks.

The point I think that some are missing here is that some people are in agreement that a psychosis makes a person do things that they may not even remember or whatever. With that in mind, some think that she still deserves to be punished, myself included.

This is an opinion. There's no absolute right or wrong here. Andrea Yates who drowned her five kids is in prison. So Sarah, and I'm not speaking as a moderator here....you should try not to state your opinion as fact. I believe she had post-partum depression, but should serve her time in a psychiatric hospital.

The debate seems to be about her punishment. Everyone's opinion counts, and not one is an absolute truth. These are opinions.
I know, it just starts to irritate me that people keep viewing this all as black or white. Plus i'm stubborn.

Originally posted by *AgEnT FaLLoN*
going to a mental hospital isn't a punishment

hah, have you ever visited one before?

its like hell.

That is just f***ing sick....:mad:

i feel worse for the woman if she has a problem that she cannot control.

do you know how bad that must feel. to not have any control of things that you do?

OH FORGET IT.

People aren't listening and will never understand that what she did wasn't her choice. I suppose you can have your opinion about what should be done to her but if you think one can control their self during such an episode of psychosis, you're flatout wrong.

May the force be with you.

Originally posted by safety pin
People aren't listening and will never understand that what she did wasn't her choice.

people don't understand because they don't want to, and that's being flatout closed-minded.

Originally posted by *AgEnT FaLLoN*
people don't understand because they don't want to, and that's being flatout closed-minded. I think you are the one being closed minded. :rolleyes: