I'm not talking about forgotten or rare shows, I'm talking about shows for which all episodes have been lost or destroyed. A lot of really early shows no longer exist. I'm not sure if it ever happened in the United States but in England, during the 1970s, the BBC began to destroy their copies of Dr. Who, meaning there are episodes that simply no longer exist today.

I know for a fact that many early game shows weren't saved due to the lack of repeat value. And if I'm not mistaken the series generally considered the first sitcom, Mary Kay and Johnny is supposedly gone for good. I also seem to remember reading that Jackie Gleason handed over his private collection of kinescopes containing some of the episodes of The Honeymooners...otherwise we wouldn't have them today. Can't be sure about any of this, of course.

So my question to the Sitcoms Online community is this: are there any shows that no longer exist today because all episodes have been lost or destroyed? This is really quite interesting to me.

Many of the daytime soap operas lost episodes that were taped before the late 1960's. General Hospital, Guiding Light, As The World Turns, One Life To Live and possibly All My Children do not have any of thoes episodes. Also early episodes of Search For Tommorrow and Another World do not exsist

Originally posted by tvobscurities
I'm not talking about forgotten or rare shows, I'm talking about shows for which all episodes have been lost or destroyed. A lot of really early shows no longer exist. I'm not sure if it ever happened in the United States but in England, during the 1970s, the BBC began to destroy their copies of Dr. Who, meaning there are episodes that simply no longer exist today.

I know for a fact that many early game shows weren't saved due to the lack of repeat value. And if I'm not mistaken the series generally considered the first sitcom, Mary Kay and Johnny is supposedly gone for good. I also seem to remember reading that Jackie Gleason handed over his private collection of kinescopes containing some of the episodes of The Honeymooners...otherwise we wouldn't have them today. Can't be sure about any of this, of course.

So my question to the Sitcoms Online community is this: are there any shows that no longer exist today because all episodes have been lost or destroyed? This is really quite interesting to me.



I'm 100% sure that episodes of these shows no longer exist

Checking In-1981
Mr. T and Tina-1976
Hot L Baltimore-1975

Originally posted by tvobscurities
I'm not talking about forgotten or rare shows, I'm talking about shows for which all episodes have been lost or destroyed. A lot of really early shows no longer exist. I'm not sure if it ever happened in the United States but in England, during the 1970s, the BBC began to destroy their copies of Dr. Who, meaning there are episodes that simply no longer exist today.

I know for a fact that many early game shows weren't saved due to the lack of repeat value. And if I'm not mistaken the series generally considered the first sitcom, Mary Kay and Johnny is supposedly gone for good. I also seem to remember reading that Jackie Gleason handed over his private collection of kinescopes containing some of the episodes of The Honeymooners...otherwise we wouldn't have them today. Can't be sure about any of this, of course.

So my question to the Sitcoms Online community is this: are there any shows that no longer exist today because all episodes have been lost or destroyed? This is really quite interesting to me.



I also think these shows no longer exist

Ball Four-1976
Beacon Hill-1975
In the Beginning-1978

Originally posted by tvobscurities
I know for a fact that many early game shows weren't saved due to the lack of repeat value. And if I'm not mistaken the series generally considered the first sitcom, Mary Kay and Johnny is supposedly gone for good. I also seem to remember reading that Jackie Gleason handed over his private collection of kinescopes containing some of the episodes of The Honeymooners...otherwise we wouldn't have them today. Can't be sure about any of this, of course.



I remember watching Taboo TV on TVland almost two years back, and they were talking about Mary Kay and Johnny and I beleive they were showing clips of the show.

Originally posted by Mrs. Ducky
I remember watching Taboo TV on TVland almost two years back, and they were talking about Mary Kay and Johnny and I beleive they were showing clips of the show.

I think 1 clip exists but like 10 seconds, without dialouge, because it has been used in many documentaries. They most likely just use the footage from another documentary and dub over the dialouge, that's my opinion anyway.

Some of the live anthology shows and sitcomsfrom the late 40's and early 50's. These were shown on kinescope and were not meant to be repeated.

Also, the daytime version of The Hollywood Squares with Peter Marshall. NBC needed the storage space and had them destroyed.

I also heard someplace that Joey Bishop had all of the copies of his 1960's sitcom destroyed.

Originally posted by Sitcomwriter
I think 1 clip exists but like 10 seconds, without dialouge, because it has been used in many documentaries. They most likely just use the footage from another documentary and dub over the dialouge, that's my opinion anyway.

If there is any footage still around that's probably the form it would be in. Without audio and very short.

And TVShow Analyzer, the shows you listed, I really doubt all copies have been destroyed/lost. There may not be any in the hands of collectors but the networks, production companies or creators probably still have their copies in a warehouse somewhere. They could be gone but given the fact that they're as recent as the 1970s I would hope copies exist somewhere.

Originally posted by factsoflife
Many of the daytime soap operas lost episodes that were taped before the late 1960's. General Hospital, Guiding Light, As The World Turns, One Life To Live and possibly All My Children do not have any of thoes episodes. Also early episodes of Search For Tommorrow and Another World do not exsist

Indeed, the only pre-1980 soap operas that have all their episodes saved are, I believe, Days of Our Lives (1965- ), Dark Shadows (1966-1971), The Young & the Restless (1973- ), and Ryan's Hope (1975-1989). In all those cases, the show's creators/executive producers had them saved. Even with these shows, some episodes were misplaced or damaged severely.

ABC (General Hospital, All My Children, One Life to Live) did not start saving episodes of its soaps until 1977 or 1978, while Proctor & Gamble (which was behind Guiding Light, As the World Turns, Another World, Search for Tomorrow, The Edge of Night) did not start saving episodes until 1979 or 1980. For the most part, very little exists from those shows except in kinescope form. There is very little from 1970 through 1977, since the networks pretty much stopped making kinescopes after late 1970.

TVShow Analyzer, I'm sure episodes of those shows are probably in some vault somewhere. I'd imagine that every sitcom from the late 50's/early 60's on saved their episodes.
ETA: I just saw now that tvobscurities beat me to answering to your comment. Oops.

Originally posted by Sean Snow
Indeed, the only pre-1980 soap operas that have all their episodes saved are, I believe, Days of Our Lives (1965- ), Dark Shadows (1966-1971), The Young & the Restless (1973- ), and Ryan's Hope (1975-1989). In all those cases, the show's creators/executive producers had them saved. Even with these shows, some episodes were misplaced or damaged severely.

ABC (General Hospital, All My Children, One Life to Live) did not start saving episodes of its soaps until 1977 or 1978, while Proctor & Gamble (which was behind Guiding Light, As the World Turns, Another World, Search for Tomorrow, The Edge of Night) did not start saving episodes until 1979 or 1980. For the most part, very little exists from those shows except in kinescope form. There is very little from 1970 through 1977, since the networks pretty much stopped making kinescopes after late 1970.

TVShow Analyzer, I'm sure episodes of those shows are probably in some vault somewhere. I'd imagine that every sitcom from the late 50's/early 60's on saved their episodes.
ETA: I just saw now that tvobscurities beat me to answering to your comment. Oops.



I doubt if Mr. T and Tina eps still exist. Started in sep of 76 and ended in oct of 76. So 28 years later and they are still existing? Not Likely.

Originally posted by TVShow Analyzer
I doubt if Mr. T and Tina eps still exist. Started in sep of 76 and ended in oct of 76. So 28 years later and they are still existing? Not Likely.

I think Mr. T and Tina more than likely does exist in some vault. After all, why not? Just about every program broadcast in primetime by 1976 would've been saved. Just because it didn't last long doesn't mean it wasn't kept. Rare programs that lasted for a very short period of time have popped up on TV quite a bit in specials...for instance, TV Land showed an episode of the very shortlived Grady two years ago. I've seen clips of Making It used on various specials, and that didn't last very long either.

Originally posted by Sean Snow
I think Mr. T and Tina more than likely does exist in some vault. After all, why not? Just about every program broadcast in primetime by 1976 would've been saved. Just because it didn't last long doesn't mean it wasn't kept. Rare programs that lasted for a very short period of time have popped up on TV quite a bit in specials...for instance, TV Land showed an episode of the very shortlived Grady two years ago. I've seen clips of Making It used on various specials, and that didn't last very long either.


Grady is a bad example because it was on air for 3 and a half months but Making It was on about the same length of time as Mr. T and Tina

Originally posted by hawaii five-o
[B

I also heard someplace that Joey Bishop had all of the copies of his 1960's sitcom destroyed. [/B]


TV Land aired "The Joey Bishop Show" for a couple years a while back. Not sure if they aired every episode, but apparently not all copies of the show have been destroyed.

Originally posted by hawaii five-o
Some of the live anthology shows and sitcomsfrom the late 40's and early 50's. These were shown on kinescope and were not meant to be repeated.

Also, the daytime version of The Hollywood Squares with Peter Marshall. NBC needed the storage space and had them destroyed.

I also heard someplace that Joey Bishop had all of the copies of his 1960's sitcom destroyed. if that's true about the Peter Marshall version of The Hollywood Squares, then how was The Game Show Network able to show it a ccouple of years ago?
Also, on "The E! True Hollywood story" 2 or 3 years ago, they did Paul Lynde, and they showed a couple clips of him on it.

Originally posted by treky
if that's true about the Peter Marshall version of The Hollywood Squares, then how was The Game Show Network able to show it a ccouple of years ago?
Also, on "The E! True Hollywood story" 2 or 3 years ago, they did Paul Lynde, and they showed a couple clips of him on it.


treky, I wondered the same thing you did at first but now if I remember correctly, the daytime version was destroyed, but the nighttime version wasn't and that's the version that aired on GSN.

^ The daytime version being destroyed would make a lot of sense, daytime != repeat value at the time. And really, it still doesn't.

Originally posted by tvobscurities
I'm not talking about forgotten or rare shows, I'm talking about shows for which all episodes have been lost or destroyed. A lot of really early shows no longer exist. I'm not sure if it ever happened in the United States but in England, during the 1970s, the BBC began to destroy their copies of Dr. Who, meaning there are episodes that simply no longer exist today.

I know for a fact that many early game shows weren't saved due to the lack of repeat value. And if I'm not mistaken the series generally considered the first sitcom, Mary Kay and Johnny is supposedly gone for good. I also seem to remember reading that Jackie Gleason handed over his private collection of kinescopes containing some of the episodes of The Honeymooners...otherwise we wouldn't have them today. Can't be sure about any of this, of course.

So my question to the Sitcoms Online community is this: are there any shows that no longer exist today because all episodes have been lost or destroyed? This is really quite interesting to me. as far as "The Honeymooners", Jackie Gleason had them make copies of the kinescopes for him, then put them away in aa speccial air-conditioned vault in his home in Florida, planning to announce their existence when, in his words, "the time is right".
They were accutaly Honeymooners sketches from his variety show in the 50s, first called "The Calvacade of Stars" then "The Jackie Gleason show". Since they were broadcast live, eeveryone thought they were only shown once, and that was it. (I found out recently that he knew of their exictence, but he never bothered to tell anyone) (Back then, shows were mostly done out of New York, surveys found that most TV owners lived in the East) and shown to the East Coast and "kinescoped" or put on kinescope which was a form of film, and shown later in the west and midwest.
When Jackies show was being done once, he looked up & saw that it was also being shown on a moniter backstage. When he assked someeone about it, they said "Oh, that's a kinescope Mr. Gleason. We're making that so people on the other coast can see the show later." So he said, "Well if you're making one copy of each show, can you make another one for me?" They said " Sure!"

I heard once that one of our local stations had a soap opera in 1949 that had all the prints of it destroyed, and all that exists of it are a few black-and-white still pictures.

When it comes to daytime soap operas, weren't early years done live? Maybe they didn't bother to have copies. I wonder just how big the tv studio vaults are to hold all these tv events. Not just tv series, but awards shows , commericals, news . etc.

I heard once that some of the early prints of "The Tonight show" were acidentaly destroyed in the 60s.
It's a shame because some of the film was the first appearences of Woody Allen, and Flip Wilson and other "rarities".

Originally posted by vze3t9q9
When it comes to daytime soap operas, weren't early years done live? Maybe they didn't bother to have copies. I wonder just how big the tv studio vaults are to hold all these tv events. Not just tv series, but awards shows , commericals, news . etc.


Which is why i think shows that only lasted a month in mid 70's are probably not in the vault in these TV Networks. They have to make room for new shows and no need to keep shows in the vault that are taking up space.

Originally posted by vze3t9q9
When it comes to daytime soap operas, weren't early years done live? Maybe they didn't bother to have copies. I wonder just how big the tv studio vaults are to hold all these tv events. Not just tv series, but awards shows , commericals, news . etc.

Yes, throughout the 50's and early 60's, soaps were done live. As the 60's progressed, more shows began to tape their shows ahead of the broadcast date. By the 70's, all the shows were now taped instead of broadcast live. The last two to broadcast live regularly were As the World Turns and The Edge of Night, which both ceased this practice in 1975.

Which is why i think shows that only lasted a month in mid 70's are probably not in the vault in these TV Networks. They have to make room for new shows and no need to keep shows in the vault that are taking up space.

I'm pretty sure they save all their shows for archival purposes...I'ven ever really heard about primetime sitcoms and dramas from the 60's, 70's, and beyond being missing or having missing episodes. A show that lasted one episode doesn't take up much space. Besides, it's not the network that keeps the shows -- I believe the production companies do (unless the network owns the show), and (especially small ones) they'd probably be more willing to keep up with it than the network. *shrug*

The thing is that until recently networks rarely owned portions of the shows, there were some exceptions (in the 80's ABC owned parts of Moonlighting and NBC owned parts of Punky Brewster). But usually independant studios produced the shows and sold the broadcast rights to networks.

Usually it is the production company that stores the shows they own. And now w/DVD and Laser Disc its even easier for shows to save episodes. Often times older shows are owned by private collecters. For example- Bill Cosby owns the rights to ALL the Little Rascals episodes and rumor has it he wants them never to be shown again.

Originally posted by factsoflife
For example- Bill Cosby owns the rights to ALL the Little Rascals episodes and rumor has it he wants them never to be shown again.

I think I read that somewhere. Another, less famous example would be Snip, the never aired series from the 1970s. The producer held onto not only the rights to the series but also actual copies of the completed episodes. Which, if I'm not mistaken, he sent to Australia to be aired.

Originally posted by factsoflife
For example- Bill Cosby owns the rights to ALL the Little Rascals episodes and rumor has it he wants them never to be shown again.

Nah, this is a false rumor. You can read about it by following the provided link.

http://www.snopes.com/radiotv/tv/rascals.htm

^ And that would be where I read it. Snopes is awesome but I've read so much of it I never can keep things straight.

Anyways, I was doing some research this evening and came across a page at the Museum of Television & Radio's website dedicated to lost programs. The page itself can be found here (http://www.mtr.org/involved/losttv.htm).

Just what I was looking for. All those shows/episodes listed there are thought to be gone forever.

Originally posted by tvobscurities
^ And that would be where I read it. Snopes is awesome but I've read so much of it I never can keep things straight.

Anyways, I was doing some research this evening and came across a page at the Museum of Television & Radio's website dedicated to lost programs. The page itself can be found here (http://www.mtr.org/involved/losttv.htm).

Just what I was looking for. All those shows/episodes listed there are thought to be gone forever.


YOU ARE A GOOD RESEARCHER!!

Originally posted by Sean Snow
Yes, throughout the 50's and early 60's, soaps were done live. As the 60's progressed, more shows began to tape their shows ahead of the broadcast date. By the 70's, all the shows were now taped instead of broadcast live. The last two to broadcast live regularly were As the World Turns and The Edge of Night, which both ceased this practice in 1975.



I'm pretty sure they save all their shows for archival purposes...I'ven ever really heard about primetime sitcoms and dramas from the 60's, 70's, and beyond being missing or having missing episodes. A show that lasted one episode doesn't take up much space. Besides, it's not the network that keeps the shows -- I believe the production companies do (unless the network owns the show), and (especially small ones) they'd probably be more willing to keep up with it than the network. *shrug*

WOW I never knew all of that. When they did the shows live, it was live on both coasts at the same time, or did they do like it is now, air them on one coast at set time, then on the other coast at a set time?

Originally posted by TVShow Analyzer
YOU ARE A GOOD RESEARCHER!!

Thanks. Actually, I think I've been to that page before and, well, I just kinda forgot about it. When you browse the net as much as I do you're bound to let a few choice pages slip past you.

Okay, after some more research I've discovered that the BBC was even more moronic than I believed. Not only did they destroy countless episodes of Doctor Who but many other shows as well.

This (http://www.markjuddery.com/html/pop_culture/tv_treasures.htm) article mentions several BBC and US shows that have lost episodes:


Some of the most sorely-missed losses in popular television.

Doctor Who
Despite several finds, 109 episodes are still missing, including the debut episodes of the second Doctor (Patrick Troughton) and his assistant Jamie (Fraser Hines). Other popular sci-fi series like "A for Andromeda" (1961), starring Julie Christie, no longer exist.

The Honeymooners
This fondly-remembered US sitcom won a latter-day cult following on the strength of 39 surviving episodes. A total of 118 were broadcast live throughout the fifties.

Number 96
While much of this ground-breaking series has survived (including the first year), hundreds of other episodes have disappeared. "Bellbird" has also fared poorly; the ABC Archives hold only 294 episodes out of 1,697.

Six O'Clock Rock
Only one episode survives of Johnny O'Keefe's controversial ABC music show. Ten's important pop shows "Go!!" and "Kommotion" fare even worse; small segments, used for promotional tie-ins, are all that exist. The first episode of the ABC's "Countdown", broadcast in 1974, is also missing.

Women's Hour
No complete episodes remain of the ABC's important (and oft-requested) magazine show, which was broadcast live.

The article is from 2001. I was under the impression that all the episodes of The Honeymooners were accounted for, including the short sketches. I could be mistaken.

EDIT: And here's (http://www.btinternet.com/~m.brown1/homepage.htm) a website all about missing British shows. If I can't find one for US shows I may include a page at my site regarding lost shows.

come to think of it, I think I read somewhere that some of the "Honeymooners" sketches with Pert Kelton (the first Alice) are missing.

Originally posted by treky
come to think of it, I think I read somewhere that some of the "Honeymooners" sketches with Pert Kelton (the first Alice) are missing.

Well, if there are going to be any episodes/sketches of The Honeymooners that are missing, those would be the ones.

I'm still doing more digging on this. It's really fascinating stuff.

Originally posted by treky
as far as "The Honeymooners", Jackie Gleason had them make copies of the kinescopes for him, then put them away in aa speccial air-conditioned vault in his home in Florida, planning to announce their existence when, in his words, "the time is right".
They were accutaly Honeymooners sketches from his variety show in the 50s, first called "The Calvacade of Stars" then "The Jackie Gleason show". Since they were broadcast live, eeveryone thought they were only shown once, and that was it. (I found out recently that he knew of their exictence, but he never bothered to tell anyone) (Back then, shows were mostly done out of New York, surveys found that most TV owners lived in the East) and shown to the East Coast and "kinescoped" or put on kinescope which was a form of film, and shown later in the west and midwest.
When Jackies show was being done once, he looked up & saw that it was also being shown on a moniter backstage. When he assked someeone about it, they said "Oh, that's a kinescope Mr. Gleason. We're making that so people on the other coast can see the show later." So he said, "Well if you're making one copy of each show, can you make another one for me?" They said " Sure!"

In 1985, "The Honeymooners" came out with "The Lost Episodes". A collection of sketches that never aired on "The Jackie Gleason Show" as shot in kinoscope. It is still aired on WPIX as well as the "Classic 39". I've never heard of the first "Honeymooners" sketch with Pert Kelton as Alice before Audrey Meadows took over in the later years of the mid-50's. That was appeared in a 1985 "Lost Episode" as well. As a matter of fact, the original "Hollywood Squares" was originally aired on the old GSN two years ago (before the show replaced by the Bergeron's version) since it was known as the nighttime version that GSN kept. The daytime version was gone and had gotten lost or destroyed.:(

about 11 years ago, THE DISNEY CHANNEL aired a special called "The Honeymooners-The Really lost episodes" that was hosted by Paul Reiser (who's a big fan of Jackie Gleason & "The Honeymooners") in which they showed some of the sketches with Pert Kelton as Alice, including the very first sketch from 10/51, and the first and last appearance of Elaine Stritch as Trixie (Jackie replaced her with Joyce Randolph after her first appearence). TV LAND reran it a few years ago.
I don't know about the other Pert Kelton ones, but I remember hearing that the first one is at THE MUSEUM OF TELEVISION AND RADIO in New York.

Originally posted by hawaii five-o
Also, the daytime version of The Hollywood Squares with Peter Marshall. NBC needed the storage space and had them destroyed.


There are literally tons of game shows that met with that fate. ABC used the film from the 70s Password to film Family Feud.

Originally posted by Dr. Jazz
treky, I wondered the same thing you did at first but now if I remember correctly, the daytime version was destroyed, but the nighttime version wasn't and that's the version that aired on GSN.

Yeah, it was the nighttime. Plus, just because it's rumored to be destroyed, doesn't mean some exec snuck in late at night and took a few home to keep. lol

well,I heard on TCM that some of the movies that were thought to be "lost" turn up every now and then in some obscure film vault or something somewhere, so maybe that happens with TV shows too.

The original pilot for I Love Lucy was found underneath somebody's bed.

Originally posted by hawaii five-o
The original pilot for I Love Lucy was found underneath somebody's bed.


Really? Who's bed was it?

It was the wife of the clown who appeared in the episode. I think his name was Pepito.

I thought they found it under the bed of one of Desi's whores.:lol:

Originally posted by TV Guy
I thought they found it under the bed of one of Desi's whores.:lol:

:eek: :rotflmao:

Originally posted by TV Guy
I thought they found it under the bed of one of Desi's whores.:lol:

:lol: Still could have been for all we know.

I kid.

I saw an episode of Hot L Baltimore at the Museum of Radio & Television last week.

Having read this thread, I can't help but wonder about how SVT (our only TV network until 1988) handled this over here in Sweden. But I do know, that a lot of material from the 1960s and the 1970s still survives.

i know that at one point i heard a rumor that many early episodes of "Ryan's Hope" (ABC's 1970's soap opera) were lost until some private collector ( a big soap fan i guess) found some of their own videotaped copies and sent it to Creator Claire Labaine... but i don't know for sure if this is true.