http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/05/earlyshow/leisure/books/main610290.shtml

Ten years ago today, Nirvana frontman Kurt Cobain was found dead from what was understandably said to have been a suicide. An autopsy determined that he had actually died three days before his body was discovered, meaning that the actual date of his death was April 5, 1994.

Many UM viewers (including myself) will recall that UM aired a segment about Kurt Cobain's death in early 1997. An investigator was interviewed on the show, and was convinced that Kurt Cobain may have been murdered. At the link above, there is an article regarding a new book entitled "Love & Death: The Murder of Kurt Cobain," which discusses potential evidence supporting that claim.

The article makes mention of the fact that the case was featured on UM. Click on to the above link to learn more.

One thing for sure....Cortney Love IS killing HERSELF! What a trainwreck and how sad for their child. Love clearly has some serious issues and has been violent in the past. I don't think she cares much for herself. If Love carries on as she is I am afraid the poor little girl will be an orphan.

I've always wondered about this myself... I know that Kurt often talked about suicide, but I'm not so sure he killed himself. Wasn't there some discussion about the way the gun was found and that he couldn't have been holding it? I wonder if Courtney did have someone do it? And, if so, how has she managed to keep the killer (and herself) quiet for so long?

There is no doubt in my mind that it was suicide. Cobain had previously tried to kill himself several times.

I bought that book. It is a very interesting read to say the least. After reading that book, I have to really question Cobain comitted suicide.

Kurt would have been 39 today. :(

I have both books by the same author: "Who Killed Kurt Cobain?" and "Love and Death." In addition, I've seen the documentary by Nick Broomfield entitled "Kurt and Courtney." After seeing all of these, I'll admit that I'm torn. I can see how the theory of Kurt committing suicide would hold up, as he had attempted to in the past.

That being said... Courtney Love was acting STRANGE on the days that Kurt "disappeared" from rehab and turned up dead. And then you have to consider HOW much heroin was in his system when he was found dead.

This case is fascinating to me. While I'm leaning towards the fact that Cobain did commit suicide, the Courtney Love theory is definately interesting. If you haven't seen "Kurt and Courtney" you should check it out.

I have always been a HUGE Kurt and Nirvana fan. "Smells Like Teen Spirit" was one of those life-changing songs for me that you always hear about. I was absolutely devastated when Kurt died in 1994. If you were too young to remember, it was HUGE. I mean, front page of every major newspaper huge. MTV basically stopped all programming for 48 hours straight and reported on it 9/11 style. I can't think of anything today that would be as big. Maybe Eminem killing himself, but I'm not sure.

Anyhoo, I have all the albums, lots of bootlegs, and the "With The Lights Out" boxset has a permanent place in my CD player. I've been to the famous house in Seattle TWICE, and walked down that same staircase that Tom Grant walks down in the segment. The room where Kurt died has long since been torn down, and new people live there, with kids, as I noticed on my second trip. With that being said, and despite all the evidence to suggest otherwise, my gut feeling is that Kurt DID kill himself.

I must say, the entire murder theory had me going for a while, but when you really sit down and look at the kind of person Kurt was---how he acted, talked, and wrote--it's pretty obvious he was a severely depressed and troubled person.

When Tom Grant came out with all his hoopla about 10 years ago, I ate it up with a spoon. And some of his evidence is STILL intriguing, despite my gut feeling. The insane level of heroin in Kurt's body is an example. All the detractors say he was an addict who developed a high tolerance for it, but still---that is A LOT of drugs to ingest at one time.

However, most of Grant's info has holes in it for me. Kurt's credit card being used after his death? Strange, yes--but he could have given it to someone, or lost it, or used it to pay for drugs.

The suicide note? It's always seemed odd that Kurt would write on and on about his music career when he was going to kill himself, but I've always thought that maybe he wrote it INTENDING to retire, then after thinking about it for a day or two, decided to just end it all. The different handwriting at the bottom of the note? I still think it's Kurt's. Have you ever seen the "Kurt Cobain: Journals" book that came out a few years back? It's all Kurt's writing, yet his handwriting is different on MANY, MANY letters, notes, etc. Just look at the book if you don't believe me.

I've always felt that Kurt wrote the bulk of the note one day, then when he decided to kill himself, added the part at the bottom, perhaps by writing it pressed up against a wall or floor, which would explain the quirky handwriting. Or, perhaps he wrote it while he was high?

In my teenage years, I kept telling everyone that Kurt was murdered and that Courtney should be arrested--but I never truly believed it. Kurt was a troubled guy--he constantly talked about death, suicide, and killing himself-- in his songs, his writings, and interviews. All his friends say he was a happy guy who would have never done that. Yeah, so were all my friends who killed themselves too--they SEEMED happy, but obviously weren't.

I DO think that Courtney goaded him into doing it, though. She could have gotten him help numerous times, but let it esclate. Kurt's bandmates and friends should all be ashamed as well (and they are--Krist Novoselic has still not gotten over it)--it was obvious the guy had a problem, and they turned the other cheek.

Sorry this was so long, but I have seen both sides of this idea, and I think the original one was the correct one. The murder idea is interesting, and some of the evidence is still compelling, but there is way too much leverage for the idea that Kurt committed suicide.

Here's an article about Kurt Cobain's death written by John Philpin. If you recall he's been interviewed on UM during the Amber Swartz and NH Serial Killer segments. Its pretty lengthy:

The Murder of Kurt Cobain by John Philpin

April 2003. Lake Washington Boulevard. Seattle. In a featherweight afternoon rain.

Trees shroud the house on the hill. The greenhouse-garage is gone, razed and trucked away. There is no hint of what happened here.

At the Sunset Tavern in the Ballard District, Five sits on his Marshall amplifier. “I live out that way so I drive by there a couple of times a week,” Five says. “It still feels strange.”

It was April 1994, in the greenhouse above the garage, late at night, that Kurt Cobain died. Of a self-inflicted shotgun wound, the medical examiner said. Fans gathered under the Wishkah River Bridge where Cobain was said to have slept in his less affluent days. They lighted candles, held each other, wept, and mourned the loss of the pioneering grunge rocker. He was twenty-seven.

Five was a senior in high school in 1994. His name was Stephen or “Steve” then, and he had been making music for fourteen of his eighteen years. When he was not writing or performing his tunes, he was listening. Clapton. Dylan. Coltrane. Zappa. Patti Smith. Buddy Guy. Jimi — Seattle musician Jimi Hendrix, another tragedy, another twenty-seven year old — Pearl Jam, Sound Garden, Nirvana.

Playing a gig that spring, Five covered “Smells Like Teen Spirit,” the Cobain song that exploded on the music scene and redefined rock for the decade. Weeks later, the author of his generation’s anthem was dead.

Cobain’s handwriting changes from the body of his suicide note to the last paragraph. He was shooting up. Motor coordination goes into the toilet. He had recently overdosed while in Europe, hadn’t he? Probably bipolar. Chronic stomach pain. Heroin abuse. The express train to fame. The poor guy could not handle the life. Case closed.

Or was it?

Five plugs in, tunes his Fender guitar. He hits the opening notes of “Morning ‘Trane,” his paean to John Coltrane, the American Northwest, and a fast train east should the need arise.

“I went looking for the Gypsies

but the Gypsies were gone.

They’d slipped away

inside the dawn.”

“It’s a different scene here now,” Five says.

I was between books, visiting Seattle for the first time, eating salmon twice a day, prowling the Experience Music Project, listening to the buskers at Pike Place Market.

With the exception of the final paragraph, Cobain’s last scribblings in red ink found near his body did not sound like a suicide note. Perhaps he thought he would quit the music business, leave Seattle, divorce his wife ... but kill himself?

In the months following Cobain’s death, positions were staked out, accusations flew, and websites proliferated in what became a political pissing match that obscured Kurt Cobain’s contributions to American rock music. In 1994, I was on the fence, aware only of the controversy. In April 2003, I had the time to forensically examine the case, and to achieve a personal closure.

Rome. The Excelsior Hotel. March 6, 1994. Cobain was found unconscious on his hotel-room floor, blood trickling from his nose. The offending drug was Rohypnol, a fifty-pill overdose that left the rocker comatose. When he awakened twenty hours later, he denied that he had attempted suicide and said he had no memory of what happened. His wife had a prescription for the drug. Cobain ingested them — to die or get high? Pundits would later interpret the Rome incident as a behavioral precursor to suicide. Fair enough. The possibility remains, however, that this was a dress rehearsal for homicide.

On March 18, Seattle Police responded to a call from Cobain’s home. He had a gun, had locked himself in a room, and he was threatening suicide, the caller said. Cobain denied he was suicidal, telling police he had locked himself away from his wife. Recognizing the scene as “volatile,” police siezed weapons and some pills. Was this another warning? The police report includes the following: “After further interviewing [name blacked out] stated that she did not see him with a gun, and he did not say he was going to kill himself.”

Additional evidence? Two of Cobain’s uncles committed suicide; both used firearms. In 1993, Cobain had been booked by Seattle police for domestic assault. Clearly there was turbulence in the home, and police confiscated weapons. In July 1993, what was described as a “heroin overdose” in New York. Enough? The guy shot up and blew himself down, right?

Wrong.

However persuasive it may be, peripheral anecdotal information is not the place to start an examination of an act of violence. For that we must adjourn to the room above the garage on Lake Washington Boulevard.

It was a steady, soaking rain on the morning of April 8, 1994 when police entered the greenhouse at 171 Lake Washington Boulevard East. The first officers on the scene called in a suicide (gun in place, note present) and requested a homicide team for investigative purposes. Officer Von Levandowski had previously been to the residence, was familiar with Kurt Cobain, and was also aware that a family member had reported Cobain AWOL from drug treatment. “The families [sic] fear was that the victim was suicidal and he had recently bought a shotgun.” Identifying information is blacked out on the report of the call, but the narrative clearly suggests that Cobain bought the shotgun after fleeing rehab.

Cobain’s friend Dylan Carlson purchased the twenty-gauge Remington shotgun March 30, before Cobain entered treatment. Cobain wanted the gun to protect his home against intruders, he said, and specifically requested light loads that would not blast through walls and threaten others in the house. He gave Carlson the cash for the purchase because he did not want the weapon confiscated as his others had been. Carlson reported that Cobain took the gun to his residence.

Cobain’s Volvo squatted on foor flat tires in the garage below the greenhouse. No one acknowledged deflating the tires to curb Cobain’s wandering. Is this evidence of the intruders that concerned him?

Police found the receipt for the gun in Cobain’s jacket pocket. Levandowski’s report places the shotgun’s butt near Cobain’s feet, the barrel at mid-chest. A cigar box adjacent to the body contained syringes, a blackened spoon, and a black-tar substance (heroin). The note was to Cobain’s left.

In early April 1994, it was reasonable that public and private expectation for Kurt Cobain include that he might commit suicide. When officers walked into the room above the garage, the scene screamed suicide. And therein lies the rub: it is a well-scripted play with superior set design — so well-written, and so flawlessly staged that it defies reality.

There were no usable fingerprints on any of the key items in the greenhouse, including the shotgun. The gun’s recoil might blur a user’s prints, but someone had to remove the gun from its nylon case and handle the weapon prior to its use.

Carlson and Cobain purchased the gun on March 30. Cobain placed it in his residence, then left for Los Angeles on his aborted rehab trip. Did he wear the same jacket from March 30 through April 4-5? Why carry the receipt? Carlson also said Cobain had the shotgun shells with him on his way to Sea-Tac Airport and gave them to a cab driver to avoid airport difficulties. The receipt for the gun does not include mention of any shells, not is there a separate receipt for shells from March 30 or any time after his return to Seattle.

Toxicology reports revealed traces of Diazepam (Valium), and a morphine level of 1.52 mg/liter. Pharmacology experts agree this is a massive dose of heroin (some refer to it as three times a lethal dose), one that would render the user at least severely impaired, if not unconscious, rather quickly. The combination of Diazepam and heroin, of course, enhances the potential for a lethal event. While it remains possible that Cobain injected the drug, returned the syringe to the cigar box, placed the shotgun in position and fired it, this sequence seems unlikely.

Officer Levandowski noted in his initial observations that the gun was upside-down, extending from Cobain’s mid-chest area where his left hand gripped the barrel, to his feet. In this position, the single spent shell should have ejected to the right. The shell was found on Cobain’s jacket, to his left. The combination of body movement and gun recoil following the shot would be sufficient for the gun to slip away from the mouth and six inches lower on the chest. With the left hand still gripping the weapon (as it was when police observed the body), it would not flip totally upside- down.

Further, if Cobain had gripped the barrel of the gun and placed it in his mouth, then reached with his right hand to press the trigger, his behavior would have been counter- reflexive. Kurt Cobain was left-handed.

There is evidence suggesting that Cobain was in the greenhouse for an extended period of time. The note and pen were both present, indicating that the note was most likely written there. There are several cigarette butts, a pack of cigarettes, a lighter, and a partial can of root beer on the floor near the body. Did he go to the greenhouse so he would not be disturbed, so he could write of leaving Seattle, leaving Nirvana, and perhaps leaving his wife?

There were two fresh needle punctures on his body, one near each elbow. Did he shoot up once, and sit there on the floor at work on his departure note until someone arrived — someone he knew, someone he would turn on with, a person sufficiently familiar with Cobain to know where to find the Remington shotgun?

At the Sunset Tavern, Five greets Paul Johnson and Andrew Vavrek, other members of The Bond, one of the better groups in “the new Seattle sound” that has scribes of the music scene believing in a sonic resurrection for the city.

I ask Five if, nearly ten years later, it makes any difference whether Cobain committed suicide or was murdered. “His was a unique and beautiful muse,” he says. “He was an open channel. It’s one thing if he opted to leave because the demands were so great, so intense that he just couldn’t deal with it. It’s totally different if someone decided to remove him.”

After so many years and so much accumulating inertia, it is unlikely that this case will be reopened by the Seattle Police, and just as unlikely that there will be an inquest in the matter. In my book, this one remains an unsolved homicide.

Grateful acknowledgement is made to Five Philpin for permission to reprint his song “‘Trane,” ©2001 by Five Philpin. “The Bond” performs regularly in the Seattle area.

John Philpin is the author or co-author of seven books and numerous articles. He is a retired psychologist, a criminal profiler, and a rabid fan of good rock music.

©John Philpin, 2003 All Rights Reserved -- Do not reproduce in any form or circulate without permission. -- Information available exclusively through Karisable.com

Los Angeles filmmakers were in Kurt Cobain's home town of Aberdeen, Washington November 16, 2005, shooting a documentary on his life narrated by Cobain himself using taped interviews with Michael Azerrad, author of “Come As You Are.” Director A. J. Schnack, 37, learned a couple of years ago that Azerrad had 25 hours of interviews with Kurt that he wanted to do something with. The film focuses heavily on his hometown of Aberdeen but the footage will be of how the town is now, not when Cobain lived there. Schnack wants this file to show the icon as he really was -- a human being. He will accomplish this through the words of Cobain himself, no interviews with friends or experts. The film starts with Cobain’s life in Aberdeen, Nirvana’s beginnings in Olympia, Seattle and then onto international fame. According to Shirley Moyers, the film’s producer, and Schnack’s wife, the film budgeted at $1 million, and will be sent to film festivals next fall.

There is no doubt in my mind that he blew his brains out. If I were married to that, I would have done the same.

I cannot see the point in Courtney hiring a hitman to kill Kurt when it was only going to be a matter of time until he died anyway- I seem to remember a short while before his death he nearly died of an overdose in Italy, the man as talented as he was was always going to die young

I agree 100%

Well none of you have mentioned they guy that was interviewed in the Documentary that swore Courtney Love offered him 50,000 to kill Kurt. That man I beileve they called him El Ducha or something like that was found dead on some railroad tracks shortly after the release of Kurt and Courtney.

His name was Eldon Hoke, and he was the lead singer of some S&M metal band. In the books "Who Killed Kurt Cobain?" and "Love & Death", the authors make him out to be an intelligent, articulate man.

I've seen the documentary, "Kurt & Courtney", and upon seeing the segment with Hoke, I instantly knew that he was full of it. I believe his quote was something like "Yeah. She said she'd give me fifty grand if I shot him with a rifle." Typing it just doesn't do it justice. He was an uneducated, blabbering idiot. Much like Courtney's father, who NEVER met Kurt, and hadn't spoken to her in years, yet he was able to write a 500 page book called "Kurt Cobain: Beyond Nirvana" and claim he knew who killed Kurt. But wouldn't tell anyone......unless they paid him, of course.

I went into the film really wanting some hard evidence to show that Kurt was murdered, but left thinking completely different. All of the people interviewed were junkies, or former junkies. Dylan Carlson, Kurt's "best friend", had sores all over his face and was missing most of his teeth (common sign of a meth addict). Two women who said Courtney told them Kurt was going to write her out of his will could barely keep their eyes open. Totally uncredible.

The article CrystalDawn posted is interesting, but I still stand by my belief that Kurt ended his life. Sure, there's lots of intriguing evidence to support the opposite, but nothing that is groundbreaking. Much like Elvis's fans claiming that he is still alive, I think some Kurt/Nirvana fans just can't let go--or accept that that Kurt did the totally un-cool rock star act of suicide.

Yes we really need the word of somebody who is not from that world because they are highly unreliable, people still like to think 2Pac and Elvis never died and are still walking around somewhere which has about as much credence as Cobain being murdered

His name was Eldon Hoke, and he was the lead singer of some S&M metal band.

The Mentors. They sucked, big time.

There is no doubt in my mind that he blew his brains out. If I were married to that, I would have done the same.


Ouch!

That being said, I tend to believe the same, although I've previously stated that I think the Courtney Love murder scenario is intriguing. Something that always made me think that Cobain killed himself is that the last song he recorded in the studio (I think it's called "You Know You're Right") is basically a suicide note, if you look at the lyrics. In addition, my ex-fiance owned the Nirvana boxed set, and if you listen to the acoustic/demo version of the same song, it's seriously haunting. I firmly believe that Cobain killed himself.

Ouch!

That being said, I tend to believe the same, although I've previously stated that I think the Courtney Love murder scenario is intriguing. Something that always made me think that Cobain killed himself is that the last song he recorded in the studio (I think it's called "You Know You're Right") is basically a suicide note, if you look at the lyrics. In addition, my ex-fiance owned the Nirvana boxed set, and if you listen to the acoustic/demo version of the same song, it's seriously haunting. I firmly believe that Cobain killed himself.

Don't forget the other song Nirvana recorded just a few months before he died called, "I Hate Myself And Want To Die" which can be found on the Beavis And Butthead Experience CD.

Well I still say its odd that a short time after that guy claimed Courtney offered him 50 grand to kill kurt he was found dead on the railroad tracks. Does anyone else find this strange? Keep in mind with Kurt doing songs that seemed to suggest suicide this makes a murder all that much easier. If you think about it alot of bands in the grunge era were making this type of music. If someone close to any of these musicians were to want them dead imagine how easy it would be to convince the public it was self inflicted. Im not saying that I beileve Kurt was murdered but it is very possible. Courtney controlled alot of money and when you have that type of wealth you can make all kinds of things happen. You have to remember she was nothing without him no one even knew who she was. If Kurt had divorced her she would be out of the limelight in no time and she knew it. With his apparent suicide though she is forever his widow and has creative control of Nirvana forever. She has made millions off of her royalty rights which she really should have no right to whatsoever. Now just think about how much she has benefited off Kobain's death and ask yourself if you can't beleive in the possibility of murder for hire here

His name was Eldon Hoke, and he was the lead singer of some S&M metal band. In the books "Who Killed Kurt Cobain?" and "Love & Death", the authors make him out to be an intelligent, articulate man.

I've seen the documentary, "Kurt & Courtney", and upon seeing the segment with Hoke, I instantly knew that he was full of it. I believe his quote was something like "Yeah. She said she'd give me fifty grand if I shot him with a rifle." Typing it just doesn't do it justice. He was an uneducated, blabbering idiot. Much like Courtney's father, who NEVER met Kurt, and hadn't spoken to her in years, yet he was able to write a 500 page book called "Kurt Cobain: Beyond Nirvana" and claim he knew who killed Kurt. But wouldn't tell anyone......unless they paid him, of course.

I went into the film really wanting some hard evidence to show that Kurt was murdered, but left thinking completely different. All of the people interviewed were junkies, or former junkies. Dylan Carlson, Kurt's "best friend", had sores all over his face and was missing most of his teeth (common sign of a meth addict). Two women who said Courtney told them Kurt was going to write her out of his will could barely keep their eyes open. Totally uncredible.

The article CrystalDawn posted is interesting, but I still stand by my belief that Kurt ended his life. Sure, there's lots of intriguing evidence to support the opposite, but nothing that is groundbreaking. Much like Elvis's fans claiming that he is still alive, I think some Kurt/Nirvana fans just can't let go--or accept that that Kurt did the totally un-cool rock star act of suicide.
Ok you talk about the documentary only interviewing Junkies and drug addicts. Well keep in mind this is what Kurt was. Did Kurt have any educated intelligent friends that could shed light on what happened? Probably not. The man himself was a reject and prided himself on the fact so ofcourse when they interview people that knew him there going to be the same type of people as he was.

Ok you talk about the documentary only interviewing Junkies and drug addicts. Well keep in mind this is what Kurt was. Did Kurt have any educated intelligent friends that could shed light on what happened? Probably not. The man himself was a reject and prided himself on the fact so ofcourse when they interview people that knew him there going to be the same type of people as he was.

that's true ... just because someone is a drug addict, it doesn't mean they're always full of it or unreliable. Unless that is, they see the opportunity for a payday by stretching the truth, and thus a big score later. In fact, I would dare say that junkies would be MORE honest than your normal human being, because their senses are so dulled...assuming they are up front about their habits, they really have no need to lie or cover up anything else.

In any case, I think that Cobain would have to have been really psychotic and MAJOR LEAGUE depressed to have killed himself. I mean, the guy was on the top of the music world, had money coming out the anus, had a newborn ... In fact, the only thing I can think of that he had bad in his life was a crazy witch fame ho of a wife. I mean, the guy was smart. Surely he knew he had enough money to get out of the business if that's what was truly causing him greif. But maybe someone wasn't willing to let that happen. Just food for thought.....

You have to remember she was nothing without him no one even knew who she was.

This is simply not true. As much as I cannot stand her, she was already very well known in the rock music scene of the late 80's and early 90's before she married Cobain. Before she was with him she sang for Faith No More (before Mike Patton joined) and dated Billy Corgan from the Smashing Pumpkins. It's not like she was just a regular chick from down the street before Cobain came along, she had been famous much longer than him.

This is simply not true. As much as I cannot stand her, she was already very well known in the rock music scene of the late 80's and early 90's before she married Cobain. Before she was with him she sang for Faith No More (before Mike Patton joined) and dated Billy Corgan from the Smashing Pumpkins. It's not like she was just a regular chick from down the street before Cobain came along, she had been famous much longer than him.
Yes she was around she was even in the movie Sid and Nancy beileve me I know who she was. However she was not even close to as famous as she became after marrying Kurt. The average person had no clue who she was until she got with him. Also if you think back her band hole was only succesful during thier marriage and right after his death. This was the point when she reached super stardom she had staring roles in movies like The people vs larry flint and Man on the moon. If you notice after the media frenzy around Kurt's death died down so did her carrer. You see Kurt avoided the media he avoided the press and that made them pursue him more than anyone else. With the press pursuing Kurt that way, they also came after her and she quite frankly ate it up. She is a media whore and will do anything for attention. Now imagine if Kurt would have left her where would she have been? The press would still hound him to no end but they would lose all intrest in her. Also if he would have divorced her she would have NO royalty rights to Nirvana and beileve me this is whats kept her going and will keep her going for the rest of her life. You have to ask yourself in a possible murder case if there is motive and who had it. I think the answer is obvious she had so much to gain with him dead you just can't rule out foul play.

As burnt out in the brain Courtney seems to be, I truly don't believe she had actually hired a hitman. We're discussing a person who had tried time and time again to kill himself. He was depressed, despondent, oh and let's not forget, suicidal. And I wonder how long it actually took Hoke to draw his conclusion surrounding Kurt's death which smelled like B.S. anyway.

Let's just hope Frances doesn't take after Courtney's behavior. I don't think anyone could ever tame THAT.

What's funny is that I actually recall Courtney Love being more famous than Kurt Cobain at one point... or at least she was expected to be. I remember reading that she was paid higher advances on her records with Hole than Cobain got with Nirvana, before they struck it big, of course.

As for the argument that Cobain was on top of the music world and had no reason to kill himself, I'd actually argue that being on top of the music world gave him MORE reason to kill himself. Ih his suicide note, didn't he say something like, "It's better to burn out than fade away?" If that's true, it tells me that he would have rather killed himself than to have become a sell-out or a has-been.

I think the pressure of needing to produce #1 albums to stay on top of the music world just became too much for him. Kurt Cobain became the poster child for the grunge generation, and I think it weighed heavily on him. He didn't want to be a role model. He just wanted to play music. He didn't understand that he could have done both.

Wow. Sorry for the rant. Just my observations on it.

What's funny is that I actually recall Courtney Love being more famous than Kurt Cobain at one point... or at least she was expected to be. I remember reading that she was paid higher advances on her records with Hole than Cobain got with Nirvana, before they struck it big, of course.

As for the argument that Cobain was on top of the music world and had no reason to kill himself, I'd actually argue that being on top of the music world gave him MORE reason to kill himself. Ih his suicide note, didn't he say something like, "It's better to burn out than fade away?" If that's true, it tells me that he would have rather killed himself than to have become a sell-out or a has-been.

I think the pressure of needing to produce #1 albums to stay on top of the music world just became too much for him. Kurt Cobain became the poster child for the grunge generation, and I think it weighed heavily on him. He didn't want to be a role model. He just wanted to play music. He didn't understand that he could have done both.

Wow. Sorry for the rant. Just my observations on it.Well first off Cobain said in an interview that with their follow up album to Nevermind they were attempting to get out of the limelight. If you listen to that album you will see that is exactly what they were trying to do. That had to be one of the best selling radio unfreindly albums of all time.

They made the video for Hart shapped box as weird and out there as possible and it still became ultra popular on Mtv. Songs like Rape me and pennyroyal tea were not really what you would think of as top 40 hits. I think Kobain realized that he had reached that Elvis status meaning that anything he touched would turn to gold and it was obvious he would always be famous. So if the idea that he could never escape fame was why he killed himself then ok I can see that. Oddly though I remember an interview with him after his daughter was born in which he was saying how he had came out of depression and was much happier then ever before. It was not long after that he killed himself. I still say there is a good chance Love had him offed

Hmm Kurt Cobain. I didnt actually listen to the music by him and Nirvana until I was well into my teens but I did like it. As a matter of fact it was some of the only grunge rock as I like to call it that I actually liked. I have heard that Kurt did have some very serious depression issues at points in his life and he also obviously had a very serious drug problem. This is obvious in the fact he probably used the Valium to calm his nerves. However I also had heard that after the birth of his daughter his depression in large part lifted and that Kurt was the happiest he had been in many years. Obviously he had a major drug problem that he could not kick. Kurt I am sure did have a desire to get out of the business or at least to get out of the public eye. In 1994 Cobain and Nirvana were so huge they could make total crap and still have top hits. Someone earlier compared Kurt Cobain to Elvis in terms of how anything Kurt did would sell and would sell huge. I agree with this and think it is a good comparison. Yes, Courtney Love is messed up and to be honest sometimes I am surprised she hasnt OD'd yet or something. I think she was clean for a while but she started using again and has got in some major trouble the last couple years. Did Kurt kill himself? I honestly dont know. I just cant believe he would kill himself like that. I honestly think he was murdered. Courtney Love would also have a strong motive to recruit someone to do that because if Cobain divorced her she would be left out in the cold and would lose the money, fame and fortune.

Hmm Kurt Cobain. I didnt actually listen to the music by him and Nirvana until I was well into my teens but I did like it. As a matter of fact it was some of the only grunge rock as I like to call it that I actually liked. I have heard that Kurt did have some very serious depression issues at points in his life and he also obviously had a very serious drug problem. This is obvious in the fact he probably used the Valium to calm his nerves. However I also had heard that after the birth of his daughter his depression in large part lifted and that Kurt was the happiest he had been in many years. Obviously he had a major drug problem that he could not kick. Kurt I am sure did have a desire to get out of the business or at least to get out of the public eye. In 1994 Cobain and Nirvana were so huge they could make total crap and still have top hits. Someone earlier compared Kurt Cobain to Elvis in terms of how anything Kurt did would sell and would sell huge. I agree with this and think it is a good comparison. Yes, Courtney Love is messed up and to be honest sometimes I am surprised she hasnt OD'd yet or something. I think she was clean for a while but she started using again and has got in some major trouble the last couple years. Did Kurt kill himself? I honestly dont know. I just cant believe he would kill himself like that. I honestly think he was murdered. Courtney Love would also have a strong motive to recruit someone to do that because if Cobain divorced her she would be left out in the cold and would lose the money, fame and fortune. I couldn't agree more. As I see it in any murder case you must show a motive and it is very clear that we have one here. Now we must ask does she have the means? Well she had a great deal of wealth and we all know that with the right amount of money you can make someone go away. Just think about it no one was ever convicted of the murders of people like Jimmy Hoffa or JFK. Many people now beileve that Marliyn Monroe was murdered. Look at all the high profile unsolved murders that were obviously planned out by someone with a great deal of money and ask yourself if Kurt could have been killed? Look at his suicide note does it actually say "Im going to kill myself" even if it did it still could have been just a ramblings by him or song lyrics who knows. Kurt was an addict and this surely was part of his downfall. It is very possible that someone hired by Courtney could have offered him a high enough dose of heroin to render him unconscience. Then the murder could have easily took place then the note planted. That's how easy this may have been done.

You guys should really check out this website www.justiceforkurt.com the information on there is mind blowing. The more I read into this the more Im convinced she had him killed. We mentioned Eldon Hoke here earlier did anyone know that he passed a lie detector test? Did anyone know the very strange circumstances behind his death? Apparently he left his house with a man he had just met, Eldon never returned home and the man was never seen again.

If you really read into this case you see all the things Courney has tried to cover up. You see all the lies and inconsistencies on her part. Tom Grant for the most part has publicly accused Love of Cobain's murder and she doesnt even bother to sue? Maybe the reason she has not sued him for libel is that she would have to prove in court that his claims were false. Maybe she knows that his claims are not false and doesn't want that to come out in court.

Tom Cruise was able to succesfully sue a media publication for claiming he was gay and Courtney can't nail someone for accusing her of the murder of her husband? There is simply too much here to ignore the evidence against her is so strong. Reading on that website was a real eye opener to me I had never heard of this Cali guy that lived at Kurt's house that Courtney gave 30 grand to.... supposedly to get into rehab? This guy admits to being at the house near the time of Kurt's death. I had never heard of that before.

To me Courtney had the motive and the means. She has mounted no defense in the face of all these accusations instead she has tried to stop movies like Kurt and Courtney from coming out. She has threatned to sue people for speaking out but never done so. Why has she not funded her own private invetigation to counter Tom Grant's claims? Hell even OJ did that once his trial ended. Anyhow anyone interested in this case should really check that website there is alot of info on there

We mentioned Eldon Hoke here earlier did anyone know that he passed a lie detector test?

Tom Grant for the most part has publicly accused Love of Cobain's murder and she doesnt even bother to sue? Maybe the reason she has not sued him for libel is that she would have to prove in court that his claims were false. Maybe she knows that his claims are not false and doesn't want that to come out in court.

To me Courtney had the motive and the means. She has mounted no defense in the face of all these accusations instead she has tried to stop movies like Kurt and Courtney from coming out. She has threatned to sue people for speaking out but never done so. Why has she not funded her own private invetigation to counter Tom Grant's claims? Hell even OJ did that once his trial ended. Anyhow anyone interested in this case should really check that website there is alot of info on there

You raise some interesting points. I'll start by saying that I found Eldon Hoke to be an interesting character. He had a hell of a story to tell, but I'm not sure if I believe it. IT IS POSSIBLE to pass a lie detector test while lying. There are ways to beat that system, so the fact that he passed a lie detector test doesn't do much for me. As to the circumstances surrounding his death, I'll just throw this out there: Eldon Hoke wasn't the most upstanding citizen in the world. He was downright shady. Who's to say that the circumstances surrounding his death had ANYTHING to do with the Courtney Love theory?

I'm not saying that I think Courtney Love is totally innocent (her behavior during Kurt's disappearance and suicide was strange, but she's strange...) but perhaps the reason that she isn't attacking the claims that she had Kurt murdered is because SHE'S INNOCENT, not to mention a media whore. Think about it. To someone like Courtney Love, who feeds on notoriety, even BAD publicity is better than NO PUBLICITY AT ALL. In addition, it's a basic rule of thumb that if you want to get people off of your back, the best defense is usually no defense. You defend yourself from ONE claim, and suddenly a bunch of others pop up. You use the example of Tom Cruise. How many times has he been accused of being gay now? I've lost count. You don't think that the claims have anything to do with the fact that Tom Cruise will respond to them, resulting in the publication getting their 15 minutes of fame? Who's to say that Tom Grant isn't out to get his 15 minutes of fame by accusing Love of murder?

In addition, in our country, a person doesn't have to prove that they are innocent. It's Tom Grant's burden of proof here. There's a lot of stuff that he brings up, but it's all circumstantial.

I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here, but I strongly feel as if Cobain committed suicide. You talk to the people that were closest to him, and the majority of them feel as if he did kill himself. They make no bones about not liking Courtney, but they feel that in the end, Cobain took his own life. Have you seen the documentary Kurt and Courtney by Nick Broomfield? Most of his family comment in the movie that they think he took his own life... I feel like that's pretty convincing evidence.

You raise some interesting points. I'll start by saying that I found Eldon Hoke to be an interesting character. He had a hell of a story to tell, but I'm not sure if I believe it. IT IS POSSIBLE to pass a lie detector test while lying. There are ways to beat that system, so the fact that he passed a lie detector test doesn't do much for me. As to the circumstances surrounding his death, I'll just throw this out there: Eldon Hoke wasn't the most upstanding citizen in the world. He was downright shady. Who's to say that the circumstances surrounding his death had ANYTHING to do with the Courtney Love theory?

I'm not saying that I think Courtney Love is totally innocent (her behavior during Kurt's disappearance and suicide was strange, but she's strange...) but perhaps the reason that she isn't attacking the claims that she had Kurt murdered is because SHE'S INNOCENT, not to mention a media whore. Think about it. To someone like Courtney Love, who feeds on notoriety, even BAD publicity is better than NO PUBLICITY AT ALL. In addition, it's a basic rule of thumb that if you want to get people off of your back, the best defense is usually no defense. You defend yourself from ONE claim, and suddenly a bunch of others pop up. You use the example of Tom Cruise. How many times has he been accused of being gay now? I've lost count. You don't think that the claims have anything to do with the fact that Tom Cruise will respond to them, resulting in the publication getting their 15 minutes of fame? Who's to say that Tom Grant isn't out to get his 15 minutes of fame by accusing Love of murder?

In addition, in our country, a person doesn't have to prove that they are innocent. It's Tom Grant's burden of proof here. There's a lot of stuff that he brings up, but it's all circumstantial.

I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here, but I strongly feel as if Cobain committed suicide. You talk to the people that were closest to him, and the majority of them feel as if he did kill himself. They make no bones about not liking Courtney, but they feel that in the end, Cobain took his own life. Have you seen the documentary Kurt and Courtney by Nick Broomfield? Most of his family comment in the movie that they think he took his own life... I feel like that's pretty convincing evidence.
Okay well first you are right about Eldon Hoke he was strange Im not disputing that. The FACT that he openly claims Love offered him money to kill Kurt can not be overlooked. One of his friends has stated that he also knew of Love's offer to Hoke so now you have a witness in that sense. Hoke then passes a lie detector test (which I know it is said they can be fooled). Do you really think this old drunk knew how to fool the test? I guess its possible.
Hoke is last seen with a man that he had just met, then gets hit by a train. Does this strike you as a little odd?

As for Tom Grant seeking his 15 minutes of fame this I doubt. Tom was already a very well known private investigator he was actually on Love's payroll and really didn't need to get into the conspiracy rackeet to make a name for himself. Was Mark Furhman just out for fame when he solved the murder of Martha Moxley? Private investigators have proven over the years they are much better then police at solving murders.

The problem here is the local police saw this as a suicide from the very start. They didn't even consider murder. Why? Because of the music Cobain made, His alleged past suicide attempts and the note which also is in question. You speek of Kurt's friends why do so many think that he did not try to off himself in Rome but still bye suicide as his cause of death in the end. Most people base their theory that he killed himself on the idea that he had tried before. This however CANNOT be confirmed. Courtney is the one that has tried to convince everyone he was suicidal. She made the claim about him bringing a gun to the hospital when his daughter was born to kill himself but no one else seems to remember this. Courtney called the police claiming he was threatning suicide but when they arrived Kurt simply said they were fighting and he wanted away from her.

I remember in one of Courtney's interviews her saying that while they were in Rome Kurt had expressed he wanted to become catholic but now he couldn't because they beileve suicide is the worst sin of all. This is just another little piece that shows he did not intend to kill himself. Why did Courtney never show Tom Grant the second note? She hired him to investigate her husbands disappearance why would she hide that from him?

Courtney gave a man $30,000 shortly after Kurt's death to supposedly go to rehab. Keep in mind this man was in the very house Cobain died in and around the time Kurt died. Combine this with the fact there were no prints on the shotgun And kurt had injected himself three times with a lethal dose of Heroin before firing and I ask you if you still think Grant only has circumstantial evidence?

Not everyone that knew Kurt is convinced he killed himself either if you look at some of the various websites like the one I posted earlier you will see some are coming forward now to doubt the suicide theory. The movie Kurt and Courtney came out in 1998 and if you remember they lost there funding to finish the movie because Courtney was threatning to sue. There is some more evidence that has came out since that movie also. You are right about the family thinking Kurt's death was a suicide but you forget he had little if anything to do with his family they had no idea what he was like in the last few years of his life. His best friend stated him and his mom did not get along at all. Also his grandfather has recently stated he beileves Kurt was murdered so obviously the family no longer agrees on his death.

I'm a huge Nirvana fan. I was in college at the time "Smells Like Teen Spirit" hit the scene. At this time, rock had turned into a bunch of hair bands singing love ballads that almost had me wanting to commit suicide. Cobain changed all that and the course of music history. He was a great artist.

I believe he suffered from "existential angst." The World didn't work the way he hoped or wanted. His reasons to commit suicide were nothing as simple as money, fame, etc. He understood that all that stuff ends sooner or later and you have to be comfortable with yourself in the end. I don't think peace or comfort were feelings he ever had. Great artists like: Jimmy Hendricks, Jim Morrison and Janis Joplin suffered from the same thing and amazingly they all died at age 27!

His own band mates, who can't stand Love, believe he commited suicide. Murder is an interesting theory, but I doubt it.

WatchYourLips

I'm a huge Nirvana fan. I was in college at the time "Smells Like Teen Spirit" hit the scene. At this time, rock had turned into a bunch of hair bands singing love ballads that almost had me wanting to commit suicide. Cobain changed all that and the course of music history. He was a great artist.

I believe he suffered from "existential angst." The World didn't work the way he hoped or wanted. His reasons to commit suicide were nothing as simple as money, fame, etc. He understood that all that stuff ends sooner or later and you have to be comfortable with yourself in the end. I don't think peace or comfort were feelings he ever had. Great artists like: Jimmy Hendricks, Jim Morrison and Janis Joplin suffered from the same thing and amazingly they all died at age 27!

His own band mates, who can't stand Love, believe he commited suicide. Murder is an interesting theory, but I doubt it.

WatchYourLips
Keep in mind his BANDMATES are in a corporation with Love. They may hate her but they are now business partners and profiting together. Also Im not convinced his band mates had any clue what was going on with him. People have said they were hardly speaking during the last tour so their opinions as crime scene investigators is meaningless to me. When you really get into this case and weigh out the evidence there is very little on the side of suicide. As far as Hendrix, Joplin and Morrison are concerned none of them comitted suicide and no one directly stood to profit from there death. I don't beileve any of them were married at the time of their departure.

Here is a quote from one of Kurt's bandmates a few days after his death


Novoselic said he did not understand his friend's behavior. "I don't have it all figured out right now," he said. (Seattle Post Intelligencer, April 14 1994).

Looks like his bandmates formed their opinions after the police investigation

Here is another Quote from a close Friend of Kurt


"The thing you have to remember about all the talk of Kurt being suicidal is that all the talk only started when Courtney came out after the death and said Rome was a suicide attempt and the media picked up on all her examples of Kurt being suicidal. That's when all these people started saying,'Of course he was suicidal, just listen to his music.' But that's a bunch of crap. Sure he was a moody guy and got depressed quite often. That applies to a hell of a lot of people, including me. But nobody ever talked about Kurt being suicidal before he died, Nobody. Why do you think everybody who knew him was so surprised when Courtney said that Rome was a suicide attempt?. I've read all this ignorant bull**** in the media pointing to the fact that Kurt wanted to call In Utero 'I Hate Myself and I Want to Die.' It was a joke, for chrissake. That was his warped sense of humour. He was the most sarcastic guy you'll ever meet. He was not suicidal, at least not when I knew him, and I knew him for the last year of his life." (Peter Cleary, a friend of Kurt’s from Seattle. WKKC? page 92).

Actually, Jim Morrison WAS married at the time he died. Just thought I'd put that out there.

To me, it's obvious that your mind is made up about the fate of Kurt Cobain, despite the fact that he had a history of depression and suicide attempts. His own BANDMATES thought he killed himself and they probably spent the most amount of time with Cobain. Of course his bandmate was going to say that he "didn't have it all figured out" a few days after Cobain's death. His friend and bandmate had just died, he was emotional, and the press was bugging him for sound bites. It only stands to reason that he wouldn't have anything figured out until some of the emotion dwindled down.

Yes, Cobain was appearing to be jovial and happy in the days before his death, but THIS IS COMMON with people who commit suicide. They are suddenly happy because they have realized that they have a way out. (I have studied this--I have a degree in Psychology and I've worked with people in crisis situations, such as sexual assault and suicide.)

As for the claims that Love and Cobain's former bandmates are profiting together... do you not remember that Courtney Love put up a MAJOR stuggle to keep the Nirvana boxed set from being released? Now, if she is as money hungry as you are saying, why wouldn't she jump at the chance to have an additional album released? Yes, she eventually did sell some of her rights to Nirvana's music, but why didn't she do this immediately if all she wanted was Kurt's money? I think the answer is obvious-- She was trying to protect Cobain's music when others wanted to profit off of it. If that's all she wanted, too, then why the legal battle?

Frankly, I'm sorry that Cobain isn't around anymore. I am a late straggler to the music Nirvana produced and I think that Cobain forever changed the music scene as we know it. Despite the fact that I have a tremendous amount of respect for this man, I still believe he killed himself. Keep in mind that I have read both books written by Tom Grant and that I have seen the movies about Kurt Cobain. Even despite all that, to me, the conspiracy theories surrounding his death are just that: conspiracy theories.

You say you base your opinion of his suicide on the idea that he tried it before and there is simply no way to confirm that. The only person I have heard say this is COURTNEY. As for the wrangling over the nirvana stuff that later came out, the arguement was that the other nirvana memebers wanted to put out unrealesed stuff and Courtney wanted to put out a box set. I guess they finally reached a happy medium and released both and a greatest hits album also. And she released his private journals a few years back.The mtv unplugged album that was released after Kurt's death was one of the best selling records of all time and who profited from that? Courtney. Im sure that kept her going for many years.

As far as his bandmates opinion of his death keep in mind that Dave Grohl didnt join the band until 1990 and Pat Smear joined in late 93 so neither of these two had known Kurt near as long as some of his Seatle freinds that have stated he was not suicidal. His long time friend Dylan Carlson told Tom Grant that Kurt was in no way suicidal when they were searching for him. Dylan is also the one that bought the shotgun for him. Would he have done that if he had any idea Kurt was going to kill himself.

If you really think he killed himself then explain how he with more than a lethel dose of heroin in his body was able to neatly put away his needles in a box, unroll and button his shirt sleeve and put the gun to his face and pull the trigger.

Whether you beileve Tom Grant or not you have to admit he is closer to this case than anyone. He had direct access to Courtney and all of Kurt's freinds and family members. He seems to think Kurt's death was a murder and he has been alot closer to this case then any of the members of Nirvana.

At this point, I just have to ask: Are you Tom Grant? :)

Also... if the actions of Courtney Love are as sinister as you claim, please answer this: If she hired a hit man to kill Cobain, WHY would she hire Tom Grant to find him? You're probably going to tell me that she did it as a way to cover her actions. Fair enough. But whether or not we want to believe it, Courtney Love is an intelligent woman (who makes some incredibly poor decisions.) She would have to have known the consequences of hiring an investigator in a "missing persons" case that ended up in the discovery of a body. I'm just sayin'.

As for the amount of heroin that was found in Cobain's system, in his documentary, I believe Nick Broomfield asked a doctor if it was possible for a person to ingest that much heroin. Noting Cobain's history of excruciating stomach spasms (which is well documented--frankly, I'm surprised you haven't brought it up before), to which the only "cure" Cobain found for was heroin, the doctor concluded that it WAS possible, but Cobain would have to be one of the biggest junkies ever to have existed. I'd buy that. He had the reasons for shooting up (the incapacating stomach pains), he had the means to support his habit, and heroin builds a tolerance in your system. Kurt would have to take more and more in order to "quench" the pain, as he himself put it. I realize it's speculation, but for someone who is so adamant about Kurt's death, I'm surprised you haven't addressed the issue of his stomach pains earlier.

Ok the stomach pains I remember hearing that was the reason for his heroin and his suicide back when this all happened. I also read the other day that a doctor had determined the cause of his pain was a pinched nerve around his spine. After the prognosis Kurt was cured as the story went. I will try to find were I read that and post it. As for why she would hire Grant if she was in on it who knows? The possibilities are endless here. Maybe she thought if she got him on the payroll he would assist in a cover up. Or she could have just hired him so people would assume she had no clue where Kurt was going or what he was doing. I doubt she expected him to dig as deep as he did.

Keep in mind his BANDMATES are in a corporation with Love. They may hate her but they are now business partners and profiting together. Also Im not convinced his band mates had any clue what was going on with him. People have said they were hardly speaking during the last tour so their opinions as crime scene investigators is meaningless to me. When you really get into this case and weigh out the evidence there is very little on the side of suicide. As far as Hendrix, Joplin and Morrison are concerned none of them comitted suicide and no one directly stood to profit from there death. I don't beileve any of them were married at the time of their departure.
I realize that Joplin, Morrison and Hendricks didn't commit suicide as dramatically as Cobain, but (with the exception of Hendricks) they were very suicidal and their lifestyles are what caused an early departure.

It sounds like your passionate about your theory and have done a ton more research than I have. I admit that if Love did want to off him, it was a near perfect crime, because Kurt was so obviously suicidal.

However he went, I think the bandmates did the right thing. When asked if they were going to continue to perform they said, "There is no Nirvana without Kurt Cobain."

Kurt did say once, "It's better to burn out, then fade away."

Whether it was murder or suicide, I think his early departure will heighten his legend to that of Morrison over time.

Kurt did say once, "It's better to burn out, then fade away."

-- that's actually from a Neil Young song...

Kurt is also credited with saying, "It is better to be hated for who you are than loved for who you are not." He HATED being the poster child for the grunge era. Just thought I'd toss that out there.

I also feel that I should add that I just visited Tom Grant's website, or should I say advertisement for the files on Cobain that he's selling for $32 plus $10 shipping (http://www.cobaincase.com/manual.htm) that come with testimonials from satisfied customers, in addition to being SIGNED by Tom Grant himself? And I'm supposed to believe that Grant is doing this simply out the goodness of his heart?

Rrriiight.

Here's a quote from Grant's website about selling the manual



Since May of 1994, our work on the Cobain Case has been done
without charge and at our own expense. Your purchase
of the Cobain Case Study Manual helps offset some of the
costs involved with this ongoing investigation. Tom Grant



Courtney sold Kurt's journal writings and still to this day controls the sale of his music alot of which was recorded before he even met her. Like I said before Grant was closer to this case than anyone. Whether he is lying about some things we really don't know but we do know he has first hand knowledge of the events before and after Kurt's death. Being that he was so involved in the whole situation why should he not profit from his work on the case? Courtney profited ALOT, Courtney's father wrote a book and profited, the people that made Kurt and Courtney profited along with the other writers who put out books about Cobain, The other members of the band profited due to the fact that after his death thier album sales skyrocketed. So why is it so awful if Grant makes a buck off of the evidence HE collected? I doubt Courtney still has him on the payroll LOL

Originally Posted by kane7474
I also read the other day that a doctor had determined the cause of his pain was a pinched nerve around his spine. After the prognosis Kurt was cured as the story went. I will try to find were I read that and post it.
It's in the book, "Who Killed Kurt Cobain?" I read the book a couple of months ago.

Ok thanks I knew I had seen that somewhere. Someone (more than likely Courtney) was circulating that he had killed himself because he couldn't stand the stomach pains anymore. I had never before heard until recently that he had actually been cured of this ailment some time before he died.

Ok thanks I knew I had seen that somewhere. Someone (more than likely Courtney) was circulating that he had killed himself because he couldn't stand the stomach pains anymore. I had never before heard until recently that he had actually been cured of this ailment some time before he died.

It's amusing how you point the finger at Courtney Love for everything, especially when Kurt, Kurt's friends, and Kurt's family have ALL mentioned the fact that Cobain suffered from chronic stomach pain. I've never heard that Kurt killed himself because he couldn't stand the stomach pains anymore. All I've heard was that it helped him deal with the pain, but he DID NOT use the stomach pains as an excuse for his heroin use.

And... if this is so true, where's the doctor that found this miraculous cure? Why hasn't he weighed in?

It's amusing how you point the finger at Courtney Love for everything, especially when Kurt, Kurt's friends, and Kurt's family have ALL mentioned the fact that Cobain suffered from chronic stomach pain. I've never heard that Kurt killed himself because he couldn't stand the stomach pains anymore. All I've heard was that it helped him deal with the pain, but he DID NOT use the stomach pains as an excuse for his heroin use.

And... if this is so true, where's the doctor that found this miraculous cure? Why hasn't he weighed in?
Now I must ask.... Is this Courtney:lol:

I never disputed he had chronic stomach pain that is well known by all. I remeber in the days after his death with all the media frenzy someone reporting that he used Heroin to curb these pains and his suicide may have had something to do with this. It was 12 years ago so I don't remember all the details. However it struck me as odd when I read he had been cured of his ailment. Through that in with the fact that Courtney has leaked lies to the media in the past and its just another little odd happening in this case.

Here is a quote from the Seatle times it mentions his illness as a reason for suicide. The whole thing reaks of BS as it says Courtney would no longer allow him to do drugs in the house. Courtney herself O'd while Kurt was missing.

"When Love told him he could no longer do drugs in their house, he moved into cheap $18-a-night hotels on Aurora Avenue. He made one last attempt at rehab, but escaped after 48 hours. He spent the first few days of April on the run in Seattle, trying to avoid police, private detectives and friends who were searching for him. On April 5, in a greenhouse of his Lake Washington Boulevard house, he took his own life with a shotgun. In his one-page suicide note, he cited the pressures of fame, his lifelong stomach pain and the culpability he felt at not enjoying music anymore".

Ah. And unless Courtney Love is a short, brunette, law student... I'm not her. :)

Ah. And unless Courtney Love is a short, brunette, law student... I'm not her. :)
But.... Do you really look like Ricci?:)

On the average, I hear it about twice a week. :)

Well I would say thats alot better then looking like Courtney Love LOL

I've always thought Courtney was behind it. Even the way she acted immediately after his death to this day.

Seems to me there was a huge clash of egos and she was seeing he was rising higher (no pun intended) than her. Mix that with all the drugs and somebody's gonna die.

I think she attached herself to him knowing full well the potential he had. She new she was never going to reach super stardom on her own so she road his coat tails to the pinnacle of the music business. When he started talking divorce she knew that her celebrity status would erode. His death however opened a great deal of new oppurtunities.

Well I just finished reading Love and Death which I beileve is the latest book out about the Cobain Murder/suicide. I was dissapointed by the fact that most of this book was for the most part the first book. It was like they just took the book Who killed Kurt Cobain and added what little new information there is.
They did have some updates I found interesting though which I think even further implicates Courtney. They go into great detail about the Rome incident which like everything else is shrouded in lies and contradictions by Love. They feature transcripts of Tom Grants tapes in which Rosemary Carroll (the person closer to Kurt and Courtney then anyone) openly says she does not beileve Kurt comitted suicide and admits Courtney is lying about several things. Also they interview a coroner and a homicide detective that both state there is no way Kurt could have pulled the trigger with the amount of heroin in his body. If you watched the documentary Kurt and Courtney you heard an expert state that people can function with the heroin levels this high and actually showed a man balance on one leg with that level in his body. It has later been determined that the test subject was using Methadone and not Heroin which effects the body much differently.

Alot of people beileve that when Kurt left the rehab center he went into hiding and avoided everyone. This is also disproved in the book as Kurt ran into several people including Nirvana's manager John Silva. He was also seen by several people having dinner with a woman in a restaurant. Several experts have said the whole thing could be solved if the crime scene photos were released. It seems odd that Courtney's lawyers asked the SPD to destroy all photos of the crime scene. What are they trying to hide?
Also in this book there is transcripts of the last conversation between Grant and Courtney in which he tells her that if she will get him the autopsy report and have Mike Dewitt submit to a polygraph the whole case could be solved. Courtney told him she would do it then never spoke to him again.
Its very odd when you look at all the people around this case that have met an untimely death 1 Kurt Cobain 2 Eldon Hoke 3 Kristen Pfaff 4 Antonio Terry and also the Coroner that did Kurts autopsy is now dead that makes 5 all together. I would be willing to bet anyone this case Will be reopened

Kurt did say once, "It's better to burn out, then fade away."

-- that's actually from a Neil Young song...
I know it's from a Neil Young song, My My, Hey Hey (A great song). But, as everybody knows, Cobain used this quote in his suicide note.

I believe that the circumstancial evidence against Courtney Love is overwhelming to say the least.
Too bad they won't do a re-investigation to see conclusively what really happened. The deputy medical examiner that examined Kurt's body at the death scene and performed the autopsy was Nikolas Hartshorne who was friends with Courtney. That should automatically disqualify him to be on this case.
He said after examining the scene: "This is an open-and-shut case of suicide."
So that was where a murder investigation that should have began, ended. You should always try to rule out homicide before jumping to a conclusion of suicide.
So they never examined the can of Barq's to see if it was spiked with the Valium or had fingerprints on it. They didn't even bother to dust the room for prints. They didn't interview Courtney, Dylan Carlson, Jessica Hopper, Cali Dewitt, Allen Wrench, Eldon Hoke, or even Tom Grant.
Explain to me how Allen Wrench goes from not having anything to having a Corvette, a Lexus, a truck, and $25,000-$100,000 in recording equipment which furnishes his home studio? Courtney offered Eldon Hoke $50,000 to take Kurt out, but he wouldn't do it, and winds up dead after Allen Wrench drops him off and was the last person to see him alive before getting hit by a train which was in the opposite direction from where he was supposedly going. Tying up loose-ends?
The Kristen Pfaff death rings foul as well. She was clean for a while and the last night she was in Seattle she coincidentally gets a visit from her ex-boyfriend Eric Erlandson who supposedly convinces her to shoot-up? And who was the ME who performed Kristen's autopsy? None other than, Nikolas Hartshorne, who Courtney says is her "rock-and-roll medical examiner".
Eric Erlandson should have, at the very least, been questioned, and/or charged with manslaughter for providing the heroin to her (and could have been pressured into giving up Courtney's involvement in Kurt and Kristen's deaths).
Courtney is a master manipulator. The "suicide" attempt in Rome sounds like a murder attempt to me. She waited two hours to call for an ambulance to come get Kurt. She frickin' primped up for the cameras for Christ sake while Kurt was in need of immediate medical attention.
The Roofies that Kurt consumed were from Courtney. And we all know that Roofies can be laced in someone's drinks undetected (that's why they were banned in the US). She's so good that she failed at killing him, but planted the seeds in people's minds that he was suicidal, so when he does end up dead, people will say, "he finally killed himself".
Another example of her manipulation is when she filed false police reports claiming that Kurt was being abusive to her (when she was the one being abusive to him), he locked himself in a room with a gun and was going to kill himself, and that she was his Mom looking for him (when he escaped from the rehab center before his death).
After she said he had a gun, the police confiscated his guns. Then she allows Kurt (who is completely suicidal at this point according to Courtney) to possess a shotgun purchased by Kurt's friend Dylan.
This is a huge web of coincidences and circumstancial evidence that was brought to light by Tom Grant and the authors of Love & Death. Too bad they don't have the power to re-open the investigation into Kurt's death.
The motive would be that Kurt was worth more to her dead than alive. He turned down Lollapalooza that year, was about to retire (the suicide note, for the most part, reads like a note to his fans of his retirement), and divorce that talentless, tasteless, ultra-manipulative skank wife of his. And she was definitely not having that, so she chose to use people (like she's been doing all of her life) to get rid of Kurt and cover it up for her.
Another thing that gets me is that Kurt had enough heroin and Valium in his system that it would not be possible to put away his syringe, tourniquet, and paraphenalia and shoot himself. He would have been incapacitated almost immediately after shooting that much heroin and would still have the needle in his arm and wouldn't have been able to shoot himself.
Nikolas Hartshorne said that he built up a tolerance, yet he was clean for two weeks before his death so his tolerance level would have dropped.
I believe that someone laced his drink with Valium, then when he was passed out, they administered the heroin, put the kit away, then propped Kurt's hands on the gun, guiding Kurt's finger to pull the trigger.
Then they stole his credit card and planted the "suicide" note and pushed the button on the door lock and left.
After that, the suicide trail was well established by Courtney, so investigators assumed that clearly it was the cause of death. Or even more sinister, the ME conspired to cover it up for Courtney. Perhaps we will never know....

I know it's from a Neil Young song, My My, Hey Hey (A great song). But, as everybody knows, Cobain used this quote in his suicide note.
I don't see how him using that line in a note proves he comitted suicide. I beileve he meant he didnt want to go on being the king of grunge and just end up an ultra commercial sell out. Ozzy Osbourne wrote a song called suicide solution which was graphically suicidial and did he kill himself? No, you better beileve if someone wanted him dead at that time they could have staged it and then the whole world would say "Hey he killed himself its in the song"

I believe that the circumstancial evidence against Courtney Love is overwhelming to say the least.
Too bad they won't do a re-investigation to see conclusively what really happened. The deputy medical examiner that examined Kurt's body at the death scene and performed the autopsy was Nikolas Hartshorne who was friends with Courtney. That should automatically disqualify him to be on this case.
He said after examining the scene: "This is an open-and-shut case of suicide."
So that was where a murder investigation that should have began, ended. You should always try to rule out homicide before jumping to a conclusion of suicide.
So they never examined the can of Barq's to see if it was spiked with the Valium or had fingerprints on it. They didn't even bother to dust the room for prints. They didn't interview Courtney, Dylan Carlson, Jessica Hopper, Cali Dewitt, Allen Wrench, Eldon Hoke, or even Tom Grant.
Explain to me how Allen Wrench goes from not having anything to having a Corvette, a Lexus, a truck, and $25,000-$100,000 in recording equipment which furnishes his home studio? Courtney offered Eldon Hoke $50,000 to take Kurt out, but he wouldn't do it, and winds up dead after Allen Wrench drops him off and was the last person to see him alive before getting hit by a train which was in the opposite direction from where he was supposedly going. Tying up loose-ends?
The Kristen Pfaff death rings foul as well. She was clean for a while and the last night she was in Seattle she coincidentally gets a visit from her ex-boyfriend Eric Erlandson who supposedly convinces her to shoot-up? And who was the ME who performed Kristen's autopsy? None other than, Nikolas Hartshorne, who Courtney says is her "rock-and-roll medical examiner".
Eric Erlandson should have, at the very least, been questioned, and/or charged with manslaughter for providing the heroin to her (and could have been pressured into giving up Courtney's involvement in Kurt and Kristen's deaths).
Courtney is a master manipulator. The "suicide" attempt in Rome sounds like a murder attempt to me. She waited two hours to call for an ambulance to come get Kurt. She frickin' primped up for the cameras for Christ sake while Kurt was in need of immediate medical attention.
The Roofies that Kurt consumed were from Courtney. And we all know that Roofies can be laced in someone's drinks undetected (that's why they were banned in the US). She's so good that she failed at killing him, but planted the seeds in people's minds that he was suicidal, so when he does end up dead, people will say, "he finally killed himself".
Another example of her manipulation is when she filed false police reports claiming that Kurt was being abusive to her (when she was the one being abusive to him), he locked himself in a room with a gun and was going to kill himself, and that she was his Mom looking for him (when he escaped from the rehab center before his death).
After she said he had a gun, the police confiscated his guns. Then she allows Kurt (who is completely suicidal at this point according to Courtney) to possess a shotgun purchased by Kurt's friend Dylan.
This is a huge web of coincidences and circumstancial evidence that was brought to light by Tom Grant and the authors of Love & Death. Too bad they don't have the power to re-open the investigation into Kurt's death.
The motive would be that Kurt was worth more to her dead than alive. He turned down Lollapalooza that year, was about to retire (the suicide note, for the most part, reads like a note to his fans of his retirement), and divorce that talentless, tasteless, ultra-manipulative skank wife of his. And she was definitely not having that, so she chose to use people (like she's been doing all of her life) to get rid of Kurt and cover it up for her.
Another thing that gets me is that Kurt had enough heroin and Valium in his system that it would not be possible to put away his syringe, tourniquet, and paraphenalia and shoot himself. He would have been incapacitated almost immediately after shooting that much heroin and would still have the needle in his arm and wouldn't have been able to shoot himself.
Nikolas Hartshorne said that he built up a tolerance, yet he was clean for two weeks before his death so his tolerance level would have dropped.
I believe that someone laced his drink with Valium, then when he was passed out, they administered the heroin, put the kit away, then propped Kurt's hands on the gun, guiding Kurt's finger to pull the trigger.
Then they stole his credit card and planted the "suicide" note and pushed the button on the door lock and left.
After that, the suicide trail was well established by Courtney, so investigators assumed that clearly it was the cause of death. Or even more sinister, the ME conspired to cover it up for Courtney. Perhaps we will never know....
I think this case will be re-opened eventually. Hartsthorne is dead and Detective Cameron was recently charged in a corruption case. Courtney could easily clear herself by requesting the autopsy and crime scene photos. Instead she has made requests through her lawyers that these files be destroyed. This convinces me of her guilt plain and simple. I ask if someone very close to you committed suicide and a private detective hired by YOU says based on the evidence he beleives its murder, how would you react? Would you not want a full investigation? Or would you ask that evidence be destroyed? Courtney can also be heard on Grants's tapes saying that Rome was indeed not a suicide and the note he left was not a suicide note. This however is a complete contradiction of what she was telling the press at the time.
Kurt's grandfather has stated he beileves Courtney was involved in a murder plot. Recently Courtney and Kurt's mom have had a falling out, so its possible the family can put pressure on the SPD to re-open the case.

Kane & skunk ape you make great points with your latest posts. After reading that one book I have believed & till this day believe that Kurt didnt commit suicide but was murdered & Courtney had a hand in it. Just too many things regarding this case that are just too coincidental.

I don't see how him using that line in a note proves he comitted suicide. I beileve he meant he didnt want to go on being the king of grunge and just end up an ultra commercial sell out. Ozzy Osbourne wrote a song called suicide solution which was graphically suicidial and did he kill himself? No, you better beileve if someone wanted him dead at that time they could have staged it and then the whole world would say "Hey he killed himself its in the song"

Nobody said anything about what it proves. I was just pointing out the quote and where it came from. Kurt was definately suicidal. Anybody who knew him will tell you that. Whether he actually did commit suicide or was murdered, I have no idea.

Nobody said anything about what it proves. I was just pointing out the quote and where it came from. Kurt was definately suicidal. Anybody who knew him will tell you that. Whether he actually did commit suicide or was murdered, I have no idea.
Ok here we go. Who around Kurt said he was suicidal? Please name one person besides Courtney who has ever stated that. If you really look into this case you will find quite the opposite

Besides the whole world, his bandmates and his Mother both thought he was suicidal.

Besides the whole world, his bandmates and his Mother both thought he was suicidal.
His bandmates have never commented on this issue. I have also never seen or heard any quotes from his mother (whom he had little if anything do with after age 16) on this issue. As far as the whole world, most people beileve what the mainstream press put out there, which in turn is what Courtney put out there. As for the people who HAVE stated Kurt was never suicidal, lets see we have Dylan Carlson- Whom was one of Kurt's best freinds that stated both to Tom Grant and Nick Broomfield that Kurt was never suicidal. Dylan stated he never would have bought the shotgun for Kurt if he thought he was going to kill himself. Rosemary Carrol- Whom was Kurt and Courney's personal attorney and Godmother to Frances that cleary states to Tom Grant that Kurt was not suicidal and beleives someone else wrote the so called suicide note. Leland Cobain- Kurt's grandfather who happened to be the only family member that Kurt maintaned contact with over the years has said not only was Kurt not suicidal but that Courtney actually had him killed. Pete Cleary- Another long time friend of Kurt's that has openly stated he was never suicidal. Courtney Love herself- Admits to Tom grant that not only was the Rome incident NOT a suicide attempt but that she lied to police saying he was going to kill himself when they confiscated his guns.
Now please feel free to provide any quotes that will argue the contrary. I would love to see where his bandmates have said anything reagarding the entire situation.

His bandmates have never commented on this issue. I have also never seen or heard any quotes from his mother (whom he had little if anything do with after age 16) on this issue. As far as the whole world, most people beileve what the mainstream press put out there, which in turn is what Courtney put out there. As for the people who HAVE stated Kurt was never suicidal, lets see we have Dylan Carlson- Whom was one of Kurt's best freinds that stated both to Tom Grant and Nick Broomfield that Kurt was never suicidal. Dylan stated he never would have bought the shotgun for Kurt if he thought he was going to kill himself. Rosemary Carrol- Whom was Kurt and Courney's personal attorney and Godmother to Frances that cleary states to Tom Grant that Kurt was not suicidal and beleives someone else wrote the so called suicide note. Leland Cobain- Kurt's grandfather who happened to be the only family member that Kurt maintaned contact with over the years has said not only was Kurt not suicidal but that Courtney actually had him killed. Pete Cleary- Another long time friend of Kurt's that has openly stated he was never suicidal. Courtney Love herself- Admits to Tom grant that not only was the Rome incident NOT a suicide attempt but that she lied to police saying he was going to kill himself when they confiscated his guns.
Now please feel free to provide any quotes that will argue the contrary. I would love to see where his bandmates have said anything reagarding the entire situation.


I really just started reading this thread, because I am a huge Niravana and Kurt Cobain fan. I really have never looked into the conspiracy theories about his death. The purpose of the statements I have made was not to prove either side of the murder/suicide but rather to promote Kurt as an artist.

I did, however, start reading more since you seem so obviously passionate about him being murdered and I must admit that there is a lot more evidence pointing towards that then I ever imagined. I still don't know enough to make an educated opinion either way, but I do apologize if you took my statements to mean that he definately committed suicide.

With all the deaths, (especially the guy who passed a polygraph test saying that Courtney offered him $50,000 to kill Cobain, and then mysteriously got run over by a train), it seems that the real story is something that couldn't be made up in Hollywood.

I really just started reading this thread, because I am a huge Niravana and Kurt Cobain fan. I really have never looked into the conspiracy theories about his death. The purpose of the statements I have made was not to prove either side of the murder/suicide but rather to promote Kurt as an artist.

I did, however, start reading more since you seem so obviously passionate about him being murdered and I must admit that there is a lot more evidence pointing towards that then I ever imagined. I still don't know enough to make an educated opinion either way, but I do apologize if you took my statements to mean that he definately committed suicide.

With all the deaths, (especially the guy who passed a polygraph test saying that Courtney offered him $50,000 to kill Cobain, and then mysteriously got run over by a train), it seems that the real story is something that couldn't be made up in Hollywood.Hey man I was a Nirvana fan since Bleach, not many people can say that lol. Anyhow I always just beileved the media reports about suicide too until I really looked into it. I mean you form your opinion based on the information you are provided. Alot more info has came out lately and people are starting to see this whole murder scenrio is hardly a conspiracy theory but instead an opinion based on the evidence of the case.

Hello guys,

Here's a scan of Kurt Cobain's suicide note (it's been said that the last four lines were forged; I'm sure you've seen it before):

http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Venue/6582/Nirvana/suicideimage.html

And this is a scan of the note written by Courtney Love (the date can't be established so far but probably it has something to do with the "suicide pact" myth between her and Kurt generated by her back in April 1994) which can be found in Courtney's recently published Diaries:

http://holefotos.sites.uol.com.br/dirty/dty12.jpg (left-hand page,written on the Sunset Marquis stationery)

The similarity between the handwriting and the style of the footnote to Kurt's
so-called suicide note and those of Courtney's is striking.That alone is very revealing and at least makes one question the official suicide verdict,right?

Another thing... for a long time Courtney maintained that she "burned" the "suicide" note Kurt left her in Rome (which by her own admission
"wasn't nice... it talked about getting a divorce"),now it appears she lied about it:

http://www.nme.com/news/courtney-love/23206

Isn't that very,very suspicious?

She has lied about alot of things here. Unfortunatley the Seattle police dont want to admit a mistake and open the case up

Today is Kurt's 40th birthday. :rip: It's hard to imagine what he'd be like at 40.

bumping this one.... I too am a huge Kurt/ Nirvana fan... and have read both books by Halperin and Wallace, and Charles R. Cross's Heavier than Heaven. I think people tend to think of Heaven as Kurt's official biography.. however Cross was appointed PERSONALLY by Courtney Love. That book is heavely biased. However, while I do not totally rule out suicide, I do think there is something about his death that is not known, and even still if he was murdered I question wheter Courtney could of had it done, hell she was as self destructive as Kurt. I think maybe someone shot him up, and after realizing they had given him too much herion set it up to look like a suicide, and knowing that it wouldnt that much of a stretch to make the public believe Kurt killed himself

Thats an interesting theory, we are still hopefull this case will be re opended. We have forgotten to mention in this thread that Courtney Love is in possesion of the medical examiners report and refuses to make it public. Hows that for suspicious?

My theory is that he was with Courtney somewhere and he overdosed and died. Courtney then panicked and set it up to look like a suicide.

My theory is that he was with Courtney somewhere and he overdosed and died. Courtney then panicked and set it up to look like a suicide.
This would have been totally impossible. Plenty of people can account for the whereabouts of both Kurt and Courtney in the days before his death and they were no where near one another. However The male nanny, Mike Dewitt was actually in the Seatlle home with Kurt around the time he died and police never looked at him as a suspect. Obviously because they treated it as a suicide from the very start.
Eldon Hoke stated that Courtney offered him 50 grand to kill Kurt, He passed a lie detector test and then was mysteriously killed by getting hit by a train shortly after making these statements. Hoke turned her down, maybe Dewitt took the offer.

Kurt Cobain: Hell Yes a Suicide.

Kurt Cobain: Hell Yes a Suicide.
And what are you baseing that statement on? Surely not evidence.

And what are you baseing that statement on? Surely not evidence.

I say it's a suicide because there is absolutely zero evidence to indicate otherwise, and plenty of evidence to suggest that Cobain suffered from depression and killed himself. I remind you that he was found on his own property, his own gun was the source of the fatal shot, and his body showed no signs of a struggle.

1. The alleged heroin levels in Cobain's bloodstream do not require any sort of "triple lethal dose" like Tom Grant suggests. In fact, there isn't even an established LD50 for heroin. Roger Lewis, author of "Dead Men Don't Pull Triggers", estimates that Cobain injected 225-240 mg of heroin; however, studies as early as the 1920s showed that even non-addicts could survive drastically higher doses.

Source: http://www.druglibrary.org/Schaffer/library/studies/cu/cu12.htm#Anchor-18-23522

The best experimental evidence comes from Drs. Lawrence Kolb and A. G. Du Mez of the United States Public Health Service; in 1931 they demonstrated that it takes seven or eight milligrams of heroin per kilogram of body weight, injected directly into a vein, to kill unaddicted monkeys. On this basis, it would take 500 milligrams or more (50 New York City bags full, administered in a single injection) to kill an unaddicted human adult.

[...]

In the Philadelphia study of the 1920s, for example, some addicts reported using 28 grains (1,680 milligrams) of morphine or heroin per day. This is forty times the usual New York City daily dose. In one Philadelphia experiment, 1,800 milligrams of morphine were injected into an addict over a two-and-a-half-hour period. This vast dose didn't even make him sick.

2. While several lines of the suicide note have been brought into question by handwriting analysts, those analysts have been basing their examinations on a poor quality photocopy of the note that was made by Tom Grant. Janis J. Parker, the forensic document examiner for the Washington State Patrol, is the only person to have handled and examined the original manuscript. She concluded that the entire contents of the note were written by Kurt Cobain.

Source: http://www.justiceforkurt.com/investigation/documents/handwriting_report.shtml

3. Eldon Hoke passed out while highly intoxicated; he was then hit by a train. It's an unfortunate way to go out for sure, but his death was investigated and ruled as occurring due to, "Misadventure". Police found nothing to suggest that Hoke's death was at all suspicious.

While Hoke did pass a polygraph test, the tests are notoriously inaccurate and easy to manipulate. They've failed to detect deception on the part of numerous criminals such as Gary Ridgeway and Aldrich Ames. While actively spying for the Soviet Union, Ames was even able to pass multiple polygraphs.

In recent years, accuracy of the test has been estimated to be as low as 61%, only sightly better than blind chance.

Source: http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2002-09-09-lie_x.htm

A 1997 survey of 421 psychologists estimated the test's average validity at about 61%, a little better than chance. And University of Utah psychologists published a 1994 report that suggested biting your tongue, pressing your toes to the floor and counting backwards by 7's during control questions would screw up the accuracy of polygraphs.

There are more arguments used to support the murder theories, but I wanted to at least take care of the three linchpins of pretty much every theorist I've seen. Feel free to decide for yourself whether or not I did a good job at it.

And what are you baseing that statement on? Surely not evidence.

MOther****er, I strarted to write a response to this and the ****ing bull**** internet got ****ed and lost my mother****ing response. So pissed right now.

Suffice it to say, my response is this: I love Kurt Cobain the musician; I am a big Nirvana fan. But Cobain's entire life was a downward spiral of self-destruction that culminated in a drug-addled violent suicide that came to the surprise of exactly no one who knew him well. There was a note which even conspiracy theorists are forced to admit is in his handwriting, despite close-to-desperate quibbling about his signature, a gun, and no evidence anyone else had been present. I knew a kid once who did something frighteningly similar to Kurt: he drugged himself out of his mind, then decided to blow his head off. In a million to one shot, he survived a bullet to the head. Kurt used a shotgun: there is no surviving that.

solid post, Zoe :cheers:

MOther****er, I strarted to write a response to this and the ****ing bull**** internet got ****ed and lost my mother****ing response. So pissed right now.

Wow.

Talk about learning a lot about someone from one line.

Suffice it to say, my response is this: I love Kurt Cobain the musician; I am a big Nirvana fan. But Cobain's entire life was a downward spiral of self-destruction that culminated in a drug-addled violent suicide that came to the surprise of exactly no one who knew him well. There was a note which even conspiracy theorists are forced to admit is in his handwriting, despite close-to-desperate quibbling about his signature, a gun, and no evidence anyone else had been present. I knew a kid once who did something frighteningly similar to Kurt: he drugged himself out of his mind, then decided to blow his head off. In a million to one shot, he survived a bullet to the head. Kurt used a shotgun: there is no surviving that.

I admit that what was unconvered by the murder theorists is compelling and worthwhile.

But the problem I have with the whole Kurt Cobain thing is that the motive is and the story behind the murder is really a stretch.

I'm not sure that they HAD to kill Kurt Cobain. Seems like too much risk for less reward.

I say it's a suicide because there is absolutely zero evidence to indicate otherwise, and plenty of evidence to suggest that Cobain suffered from depression and killed himself. I remind you that he was found on his own property, his own gun was the source of the fatal shot, and his body showed no signs of a struggle.

1. The alleged heroin levels in Cobain's bloodstream do not require any sort of "triple lethal dose" like Tom Grant suggests. In fact, there isn't even an established LD50 for heroin. Roger Lewis, author of "Dead Men Don't Pull Triggers", estimates that Cobain injected 225-240 mg of heroin; however, studies as early as the 1920s showed that even non-addicts could survive drastically higher doses.

Source: http://www.druglibrary.org/Schaffer/library/studies/cu/cu12.htm#Anchor-18-23522



2. While several lines of the suicide note have been brought into question by handwriting analysts, those analysts have been basing their examinations on a poor quality photocopy of the note that was made by Tom Grant. Janis J. Parker, the forensic document examiner for the Washington State Patrol, is the only person to have handled and examined the original manuscript. She concluded that the entire contents of the note were written by Kurt Cobain.

Source: http://www.justiceforkurt.com/investigation/documents/handwriting_report.shtml

3. Eldon Hoke passed out while highly intoxicated; he was then hit by a train. It's an unfortunate way to go out for sure, but his death was investigated and ruled as occurring due to, "Misadventure". Police found nothing to suggest that Hoke's death was at all suspicious.

While Hoke did pass a polygraph test, the tests are notoriously inaccurate and easy to manipulate. They've failed to detect deception on the part of numerous criminals such as Gary Ridgeway and Aldrich Ames. While actively spying for the Soviet Union, Ames was even able to pass multiple polygraphs.

In recent years, accuracy of the test has been estimated to be as low as 61%, only sightly better than blind chance.

Source: http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2002-09-09-lie_x.htm



There are more arguments used to support the murder theories, but I wanted to at least take care of the three linchpins of pretty much every theorist I've seen. Feel free to decide for yourself whether or not I did a good job at it.

Well lets see here where to begin? I will have to respectfully disagree with you for starters

There was no evidence of murder? The murder theorist are not assuming that he was murdered in some arguement with someone or murdered by crime of passion. Instead it is allegded that he was murdered and it was set up to look like a suicide. So that being said what would him being found on his own property and shot by his own gun prove?? I mean if someone had decided to kill him and make it look like a suicide why use someone elses gun? Where else could you kill him besides his house? A crowded restaurant perhaps?

You say no one that knew him was surprised by his suicide? Is that so, would you mind naming anyone (besides Courtney of course) who made statements to support that. His best friend Dylan Carlson said he never would have gotten the shotgun for Kurt if he thought he was suicidal. There where also quite a few people that interacted with Kurt in the days leading up to his death and none of them have stated he seemed depressed or dispondent. He did go out to eat several times, went to see a movie with friends and made plans to visit his grandfather before he was shot. Staying on that same subject of people who knew Kurt well, lets talk about Kurt and Courtneys personal attorney Rosemary Carrol. There is a tape recorded conversation between her and Tom Grant where in Grant tells her of Kurt being found dead and the first thing out of her mouth is " you know Courtney had something to do with this". These are people who really knew Kurt the person and not just the image the record industry made him into.

Eldon Hoke- Ok true he is not who anyone would want as their star witness as hes obviously a degenerate drunk but its still very compelling the statements he made and that he was willing to take and pass a polygraph. You talk about some CIA KGB guy fooling polygraphs and I would say to that would come as no surprise. Im sure those people go through extensive training on how to lie convincingly. Surely your not putting Eldon Hoke in the same category as CIA spy hunters. LOL I doubt Mr El Duce put much time into learning to fool polygraphs. And as far as his death is concerned Im saying that anytime a person is hit by a train it is suspicious. Trains dont exactly swerve around a corner, or come out of no where and hit you. There is another unsolved mysteries case where two young kids where run over by a train and the police ruled out foul play at first. Later it was found they were put on the tracks. As far as El Duce's real cause of death well who would ever know? Im sure when a body is struck by a locomotive most physical evidence is destroyed.

The note- The entire note may be Kurt"s handwriting but it sure doesnt say anything about suicide and the last half looks an awfully lot different then the first. Kurt did alot of writing like this though. Have you ever seen his journals? Courtney was also in possesion of other notes Kurt had written and one of them was similar to the so called suicide note but was more obviously a letter apologizing to his fans for breaking up Nirvana. I saw on one of the documentaries where three different handwritting experts basically could not say if the last few lines in the note where Kurt's writing or not.

The drugs in his system- Tom Grant is not the only one claiming Kurt had triple what is considered a lethal dose. This is not a theory that is exclusive to him. Im no expert here but he obviously he had a big dose of heroin in him before the trigger was pulled. There are medical experts that have said he would have died before being able to pull the trigger and others that say he could have tolerated such a high dose. At any rate I would think having that big dose would make him relax and feel better, not make him want to blow his head off.

Another point that seems to always be overlooked, someone was in the house with him around the time that he died. Mike Dewitt (cali) was at the home and some strange note that didnt really make sense was found that he had left. Dewitt refused to talk to Tom Grant and refused a polygraph. Grant requested this while he was still on Courtney Love's payroll. Grant has stated that if dewitt will take a polygraph and Courtney will release that medical examiners report that his theories could be proven wrong but that still hasnt happened.

How about the fact that no prints where on the shotgun and Kurts credit card was being used right up until the body was found?? I know some have stated that the credit card charges showed up late and the transactions where actually being done by Kurt but keep in mind the card was not with Kurt and was never found.

This would have been alot easier to pull off then people realize. Courtney could have offered Cali alot of money to make it happen. All he has to do is get high with Kurt, give him a big enough dose to knock him out, shoot him and stage everything, then simply leave.

You should all should listen to the audio tapes of Grant and Courtney's phone calls. You can really see how manipulating and calculating she is

I admit that what was unconvered by the murder theorists is compelling and worthwhile.

But the problem I have with the whole Kurt Cobain thing is that the motive is and the story behind the murder is really a stretch.

I'm not sure that they HAD to kill Kurt Cobain. Seems like too much risk for less reward.

Money is always the biggest motive in murder. Kurt dying while still married to Courtney sets her up for life. Can you imagine what she has made off the royalites from Nirvana? No one even knew who Courtney or her band where until she latched onto Kurt. He was leaving her and she knew it.

There was no evidence of murder? The murder theorist are not assuming that he was murdered in some arguement with someone or murdered by crime of passion. Instead it is allegded that he was murdered and it was set up to look like a suicide. So that being said what would him being found on his own property and shot by his own gun prove??

To suggest that a murder scene was staged as a suicide, you'd need evidence that would clearly suggest that someone else was present at the time of death. In the Cobain case, no such evidence exists.

Also to add on to my previous statements, Cobain was found with marks on his hands that indicated that he had fired the weapon that was eventually determined to have killed him. This is critically important. It is one thing to incapacitate a man and shoot him; it is another entirely to incapacitate a man, make him shoot his gun into his own mouth, and to do this without leaving a trace.

Cobain suffered a single [gunshot wound] to the head. The shotgun had been placed in Cobain's mouth and discharged. There were marks on Cobain's hands consistent with the firing of this [weapon].

Source: http://www.justiceforkurt.com/investigation/documents/major_investigation_summary.shtml


You say no one that knew him was surprised by his suicide?

I said nothing of the sort, but the surprise of others would be largely immaterial anyway. Many people commit suicide without their loved ones being aware that they have reached such a point of despondency.

You talk about some CIA KGB guy fooling polygraphs and I would say to that would come as no surprise. Im sure those people go through extensive training on how to lie convincingly. Surely your not putting Eldon Hoke in the same category as CIA spy hunters. LOL

I never claimed that Eldon Hoke consciously attempted any means of defeating a polygraph test. I simply stated that they are easily defeated, and can even defeat themselves in up to forty percent of cases.

By the way, according to Aldrich Ames, the only advice he was given was the following: "Get a real good night's sleep. Be fresh and rested. Be cooperative. Develop rapport with examiner. And try to remain as calm and easy as you can." These are hardly sophisticated countermeasures. It's easy to see how they could even be used unwittingly.

The note- The entire note may be Kurt"s handwriting but it sure doesnt say anything about suicide [...]

It doesn't say anything about suicide? What then does this quote indicate?

Please keep going Courtney
for Frances
for her life which will be so much happier without me. I LOVE YOU I LOVE YOU!

Dewitt refused to talk to Tom Grant and refused a polygraph. Grant requested this while he was still on Courtney Love's payroll. Grant has stated that if dewitt will take a polygraph and Courtney will release that medical examiners report that his theories could be proven wrong but that still hasnt happened.

Would you want to talk to a man, or take a polygraph at the request of a man, who is suggesting that you were somehow knowledgeable of or involved in the homicide of another person? I surely wouldn't want to put up with something like that, and I can't blame Michael Dewitt for not being interested in doing so either.

As for the medical examiner's report, can you not see why someone would not want to publicly release information from their deceased husband's autopsy? Were Kurt Cobain not an internationally known public figure, no one would be requesting such documentation.

How about the fact that no prints where on the shotgun and Kurts credit card was being used right up until the body was found?? I know some have stated that the credit card charges showed up late and the transactions where actually being done by Kurt but keep in mind the card was not with Kurt and was never found.

It is not true that there were no prints on the shotgun; however, it is true that there were no legible fingerprints. There are at least a couple of reasons a fingerprint might be smudged on a weapon, but the most obvious in the Cobain case would be the recoil of the shotgun in his hands.

You pretty much already gave the most logically sound explanation for the credit card's possible use after Cobain's death. The fact that it wasn't found with Kurt is slightly interesting, but there are many reasons that it might not have been located. It's a possibility that he may have given it to someone before his death, he may have thrown it away in agitation after discovering that it had been canceled by his wife, or he may have simply lost it at some point.

It would be great if the issue could be put to rest, but one missing possession does not a case make.

MOther****er, I strarted to write a response to this and the ****ing bull**** internet got ****ed and lost my mother****ing response. So pissed right now.

Suffice it to say, my response is this: I love Kurt Cobain the musician; I am a big Nirvana fan. But Cobain's entire life was a downward spiral of self-destruction that culminated in a drug-addled violent suicide that came to the surprise of exactly no one who knew him well. There was a note which even conspiracy theorists are forced to admit is in his handwriting, despite close-to-desperate quibbling about his signature, a gun, and no evidence anyone else had been present. I knew a kid once who did something frighteningly similar to Kurt: he drugged himself out of his mind, then decided to blow his head off. In a million to one shot, he survived a bullet to the head. Kurt used a shotgun: there is no surviving that.

I also beileve Kurt was one of the most creative intellegent mucisians to ever live. I disagree with you on saying his life was a downward spiral of self destruction. Ive watched every documentary and read every book out there on the man and besides his drug use (which is commonplace in his chosen field) where is all the self destruction? Ive read no accounts of him attempting suicide and heard nothing of him mutalating himself ( like emo kids are fond of) or being an overly violent person towards himself or anyone else. Sure he had issues with depression but this didnt seem to effect him to any degree until Courtney Love showed up on the scene.

You said there is no evidence anyone else was there, well even the Seattle police acknowledge that Mike Dewitt was at the house around the same time Kurt was so yes someone else was there. They did not treat that room like a crime scene and I doubt they went through it with a fine tooth comb to find hair fibers or DNA of anyone else.

I also new a kid in highschool that killed himself, He started his parents car in the garage and slashed both his wrists. This kid was self destructive and very despondent and it came as no surprise as he had threatened it many times. That ofcourse has nothing to do with the evidence in this case. Im simply saying there is enough evidence to re open this case and do some official investigating. Lets get the medical examiners report, lets interegate Cali and Courtney and put all the conspiracy theories to rest.
\

To suggest that a murder scene was staged as a suicide, you'd need evidence that would clearly suggest that someone else was present at the time of death. In the Cobain case, no such evidence exists.

Also to add on to my previous statements, Cobain was found with marks on his hands that indicated that he had fired the weapon that was eventually determined to have killed him. This is critically important. It is one thing to incapacitate a man and shoot him; it is another entirely to incapacitate a man, make him shoot his gun into his own mouth, and to do this without leaving a trace.



Source: http://www.justiceforkurt.com/investigation/documents/major_investigation_summary.shtml



I said nothing of the sort, but the surprise of others would be largely immaterial anyway. Many people commit suicide without their loved ones being aware that they have reached such a point of despondency.



I never claimed that Eldon Hoke consciously attempted any means of defeating a polygraph test. I simply stated that they are easily defeated, and can even defeat themselves in up to forty percent of cases.

By the way, according to Aldrich Ames, the only advice he was given was the following: "Get a real good night's sleep. Be fresh and rested. Be cooperative. Develop rapport with examiner. And try to remain as calm and easy as you can." These are hardly sophisticated countermeasures. It's easy to see how they could even be used unwittingly.



It doesn't say anything about suicide? What then does this quote indicate?





Would you want to talk to a man, or take a polygraph at the request of a man, who is suggesting that you were somehow knowledgeable of or involved in the homicide of another person? I surely wouldn't want to put up with something like that, and I can't blame Michael Dewitt for not being interested in doing so either.

As for the medical examiner's report, can you not see why someone would not want to publicly release information from their deceased husband's autopsy? Were Kurt Cobain not an internationally known public figure, no one would be requesting such documentation.



It is not true that there were no prints on the shotgun; however, it is true that there were no legible fingerprints. There are at least a couple of reasons a fingerprint might be smudged on a weapon, but the most obvious in the Cobain case would be the recoil of the shotgun in his hands.

You pretty much already gave the most logically sound explanation for the credit card's possible use after Cobain's death. The fact that it wasn't found with Kurt is slightly interesting, but there are many reasons that it might not have been located. It's a possibility that he may have given it to someone before his death, he may have thrown it away in agitation after discovering that it had been canceled by his wife, or he may have simply lost it at some point.

It would be great if the issue could be put to rest, but one missing possession does not a case make.

You keep saying that there is no evidence anyone else was present but again that is not true. Dewitt was there for one and if someone else was there that Kurt knew what evidence would they leave behind? If someone else was there and killed him would they leave their wallet behind or an ID so everyone would know they were there? No. The police didnt even look for evidence of anyone else's presence so ofcourse there is no evidence. Again if it was staged suicide by someone Kurt knew there isnt going to be any sign of break in or struggle.

The marks on his hand- Kurt had Dylan get him the shotgun and the reason he gave was for self defense. Kurt was afraid someone was out to get him. This is also evidenced by the fact that there where three shells in the gun after the fatal shot. Was Kurt planning to shoot himself more then once?? Kurt could have easily taken the gun out somewhere and test fired it. Could have been days before he died.

Again on the note- Kurt was always writing things like this, again I would suggest you look at his journals, Converse came out with a line of shoes that have Kurt's scribblings on them, its all kinds of off the wall stuff. The part of the note that may elude to suicide is the part in question as to whether it is his writing or not. Im sure you have seen the note, it is very questionable.

You keep saying that there is no evidence anyone else was present but again that is not true. Dewitt was there for one and if someone else was there that Kurt knew what evidence would they leave behind?

For one, they'd possibly leave behind legible fingerprints on the weapon or spent cartridge. There would also be an absence of gunshot residue on Cobain's hands in the places where the murderer touched them.

As far as no one being present, I feel as though you're playing with my words. Michael Dewitt was present at the Cobain home until approximately April 7th, but there is nothing to suggest that he was at the greenhouse. These are two entirely separate structures.

The marks on his hand- Kurt had Dylan get him the shotgun and the reason he gave was for self defense. Kurt was afraid someone was out to get him. This is also evidenced by the fact that there where three shells in the gun after the fatal shot. Was Kurt planning to shoot himself more then once?? Kurt could have easily taken the gun out somewhere and test fired it. Could have been days before he died.

The gun had a capacity of three rounds, but only one shell was in the gun at the time it was fired. Stephen Kirkland, a detective for the Washington State Patrol, reported that the gun was empty at the time he received it for examination.

Source: http://www.justiceforkurt.com/investigation/documents/shotgun_lab_results.shtml

Gunshot residue can be partially or entirely removed from hands via simple hand washing. Even if Cobain did test fire the weapon shortly after his March 30th purchase of it, he surely would have washed his hands several times over the proceeding week. The residue had to have been recent.

Again on the note- Kurt was always writing things like this, again I would suggest you look at his journals, Converse came out with a line of shoes that have Kurt's scribblings on them, its all kinds of off the wall stuff. The part of the note that may elude to suicide is the part in question as to whether it is his writing or not. Im sure you have seen the note, it is very questionable.

I've read his journals. That Cobain had written, "[...] off the wall stuff," does not suggest that his suicide note is not legitimate. If you do not believe that the portion of the note that I quoted is an allusion to his suicidal intent, I would like you to tell me what you think it does mean.

I've already explained the issues with the handwriting analyses, but in case you missed it:

While several lines of the suicide note have been brought into question by handwriting analysts, those analysts have been basing their examinations on a poor quality photocopy of the note that was made by Tom Grant. Janis J. Parker, the forensic document examiner for the Washington State Patrol, is the only person to have handled and examined the original manuscript. She concluded that the entire contents of the note were written by Kurt Cobain.

For one, they'd possibly leave behind legible fingerprints on the weapon or spent cartridge. There would also be an absence of gunshot residue on Cobain's hands in the places where the murderer touched them.

As far as no one being present, I feel as though you're playing with my words. Michael Dewitt was present at the Cobain home until approximately April 7th, but there is nothing to suggest that he was at the greenhouse. These are two entirely separate structures.



The gun had a capacity of three rounds, but only one shell was in the gun at the time it was fired. Stephen Kirkland, a detective for the Washington State Patrol, reported that the gun was empty at the time he received it for examination.

Source: http://www.justiceforkurt.com/investigation/documents/shotgun_lab_results.shtml

Gunshot residue can be partially or entirely removed from hands via simple hand washing. Even if Cobain did test fire the weapon shortly after his March 30th purchase of it, he surely would have washed his hands several times over the proceeding week. The residue had to have been recent.



I've read his journals. That Cobain had written, "[...] off the wall stuff," does not suggest that his suicide note is not legitimate. If you do not believe that the portion of the note that I quoted is an allusion to his suicidal intent, I would like you to tell me what you think it does mean.

I've already explained the issues with the handwriting analyses, but in case you missed it:

They would leave behind legible finger prints??? True but there"s one problem with that, THE COPS NEVER LOOKED FOR ANY FINGER PRINTS!! Do you understand that the greenhouse was NEVER treated as a crime scene???? They didnt even look for prints on the gun until nearly a month later. Speaking of that, do you find it odd that there is no legible prints on the gun?? I mean atleast three different people handled the weapon. The gun store owner, Dylan and Kurt. Yet ALL of the prints that could have been on this gun where wiped out by one single recoil??? Is that what you beileve??

You may be right about the gun being empty when it was recieved for examination but every account I have read states that at the scene it was fully loaded minus the one shot that killed Cobain. Look at the date on the link for the document that you provided. The gun was examined a month after Kurt's death. Is it possible that within that time frame the gun was unloaded?

There is nothing to suggest Dewitt was at the greenhouse??? We know he was at the house so if indeed he did venture over to the greenhouse what exactly would be left behind to suggest he was there??? How would you ever prove or disprove what rooms of the house he went into unless the police searched for hair fibers, which they did not.

As for the note I think he was leaving Courtney for good, obviously he didnt go back to her when he left the rehab center and it has been stated that he was planning on moving out East to work with Michael Stipe. Could have been farewell letter to her, could have been written when he was stoned out of his mind, could have been written by someone else. Lots of possibilities.

Now the handwritting analysis, Ok I understand that the investigator with the Seatlle police states it was all Kurt's handwritting but there have been other experts that have seen copies of the note and have not been able to say one way or the other. How bout we allow more then one expert to view the original note and base our conclusions on more then one opinion?

Money is always the biggest motive in murder. Kurt dying while still married to Courtney sets her up for life. Can you imagine what she has made off the royalites from Nirvana? No one even knew who Courtney or her band where until she latched onto Kurt. He was leaving her and she knew it.

Exactly... I will never believe Kurt Cobain committed suicide. There is just too many things surrounding his death, before & after that just do not add up.

Speaking of that, do you find it odd that there is no legible prints on the gun?? I mean atleast three different people handled the weapon. The gun store owner, Dylan and Kurt. Yet ALL of the prints that could have been on this gun where wiped out by one single recoil??? Is that what you beileve??

I've already stated that I do not find it odd that there were no legible prints. While I'm unsure of Cobain's and Carlson's awareness of how to correctly hold a firearm, if they held the weapon properly, Cobain's fingers and hands would likely overlap the places in which Carlson and the shop owner handled the gun. This would make their prints just as illegible as Cobain's were determined to be.

It's worth keeping in mind that it requires specific circumstances to leave legible fingerprints. The FBI even has a web page about how to take prints and ensure that they are legible. [Link: http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cjisd/takingfps.html] It reveals that such things as dirty or moist hands, not being parallel with the object, being unrelaxed, etc. can contribute to fingerprints being illegible.

Also keep in mind that if the gun was in fact wiped clean, there should be no evidence of fingerprints. Rendering a fingerprint illegible without destroying it is not an easy process, doing it successfully to every object inside a room is extremely improbable, and getting an inexperienced killer to do it that well is nearing impossibility.

Look at the date on the link for the document that you provided. The gun was examined a month after Kurt's death. Is it possible that within that time frame the gun was unloaded?

Anything is possible, but why on earth would the Seattle Police Department unload the weapon before sending it off for analysis? They have no obvious incentive to tamper with the evidence.

There were two extra shells that were examined for fingerprints, but they were examined along with the red pen and spent shell casing. Since they were tested independently of the gun itself, the reasonable conclusion is that they were the loose items that were discovered in the room. No police document, as far as I have yet determined, suggests that the shotgun was ever loaded with multiple shells.

There is nothing to suggest Dewitt was at the greenhouse???

Correct, but I'm wondering something. Why are you so hung up on the idea that Michael Dewitt was involved in the death of Kurt Cobain? Other than being friends with Courtney Love, is there any reason whatsoever for him to kill Cobain? Did he have any apparent motive? Does he have a history of violent crime that would suggest his ability to cover up a homicide so elegantly as to make the evidence say suicide to multiple major law enforcement agencies?

Have you ever heard of Occam's razor? In a scenario in which two explanations equally explain the facts, the one that relies on the fewest unproven assumptions is generally correct.

In this case, I believe that, "Kurt Cobain committed suicide. Unfortunately, he left no legible fingerprints," beats, "Courtney Love and Michael Dewitt orchestrated an elaborate conspiracy to kill Kurt Cobain. They had Kurt lured to the greenhouse by a killer who injected him with a large quantity of heroin, made him shoot himself, added extra lines on to a Cobain-penned note, and carefully disrupted the fingerprints just enough to make them illegible. This ruse was sufficient enough to fool the Seattle Police Department and the Washington State Patrol, but was detected easily by a private investigator, a lawyer, Courtney Love's estranged father, and a Seattle public access host who runs around harassing Love and Charles Cross. "

Ok I understand that the investigator with the Seatlle police states it was all Kurt's handwritting but there have been other experts that have seen copies of the note and have not been able to say one way or the other. How bout we allow more then one expert to view the original note and base our conclusions on more then one opinion?

Much like the results of Cobain's autopsy and post-mortem toxicology results, Courtney Love has absolutely no obligation to make available her deceased husband's suicide note. This is assuming that she still even has it. Were I in her position, I would've destroyed it; I imagine many would agree with me on that matter.

I wrote this message in a bit of a hurry, and I apologize if I came across as abrasive. It is not my intent to come across as disparaging to anyone, only to their ideas.

Zoe F, I like the cut of your jib.

Exactly... I will never believe Kurt Cobain committed suicide. There is just too many things surrounding his death, before & after that just do not add up.
Well and the main reason we have so many unanswered questions is because the police ruled it a suicide and never investigated it as a crime scene. If they would have listened to Tom Grant who was there at the scene shortly after the body was found, this all could have either been put to rest or turned out to be murder. He told the investigators that they should not rush to rule this a suicide, he told them there where alot of odd happenings within the days before he was found, he told them of Courtney's suspicious behaviour etc etc. They basically blew him off and in the process destroyed any evidence of anyone else in that greenhouse with Kurt.

The day he was found the police where moving items around the room to get better photographs of them, They were informed of Dewitt being at the home in the days prior and cleared him with a simple phone call. If they would have kept the scene in pristene condition and ruled his death undetermined then there would be no lingering questions to this day. If they had investigated further they would have known Kurt was seen all around Seattle that week and wasnt on the run or hiding, they would have known that Courtney gave Dewiit 30 grand and sent him to a rehap center in Kansas the day before the body was found, they could have questioned Eldon Hoke extensively, they could have had access to all of Grants tape recordings with Courtney, the gun could have been tested for prints or dna the day it was found, they could have questioned Courtney as to why she had someone installing a burglar alarm right near the greenhouse on April 8th.

Seriously if your spouse is missing and you are truly worried about his safety are you going to be concerned with having contractors doing work on a home your not even staying in???
Likewise if they would have let the cause of death remain undetermined then they would have uncovered that Kurt was leaving Courtney and in that lies a possible motive. Kurt had contacted his attorney asking about having Courtney taken out of his will. Ofcourse the police didnt know any of this because they rushed to rule it a suicide.

I've already stated that I do not find it odd that there were no legible prints. While I'm unsure of Cobain's and Carlson's awareness of how to correctly hold a firearm, if they held the weapon properly, Cobain's fingers and hands would likely overlap the places in which Carlson and the shop owner handled the gun. This would make their prints just as illegible as Cobain's were determined to be.

It's worth keeping in mind that it requires specific circumstances to leave legible fingerprints. The FBI even has a web page about how to take prints and ensure that they are legible. [Link: http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cjisd/takingfps.html] It reveals that such things as dirty or moist hands, not being parallel with the object, being unrelaxed, etc. can contribute to fingerprints being illegible.

Also keep in mind that if the gun was in fact wiped clean, there should be no evidence of fingerprints. Rendering a fingerprint illegible without destroying it is not an easy process, doing it successfully to every object inside a room is extremely improbable, and getting an inexperienced killer to do it that well is nearing impossibility.



Anything is possible, but why on earth would the Seattle Police Department unload the weapon before sending it off for analysis? They have no obvious incentive to tamper with the evidence.

There were two extra shells that were examined for fingerprints, but they were examined along with the red pen and spent shell casing. Since they were tested independently of the gun itself, the reasonable conclusion is that they were the loose items that were discovered in the room. No police document, as far as I have yet determined, suggests that the shotgun was ever loaded with multiple shells.



Correct, but I'm wondering something. Why are you so hung up on the idea that Michael Dewitt was involved in the death of Kurt Cobain? Other than being friends with Courtney Love, is there any reason whatsoever for him to kill Cobain? Did he have any apparent motive? Does he have a history of violent crime that would suggest his ability to cover up a homicide so elegantly as to make the evidence say suicide to multiple major law enforcement agencies?

Have you ever heard of Occam's razor? In a scenario in which two explanations equally explain the facts, the one that relies on the fewest unproven assumptions is generally correct.

In this case, I believe that, "Kurt Cobain committed suicide. Unfortunately, he left no legible fingerprints," beats, "Courtney Love and Michael Dewitt orchestrated an elaborate conspiracy to kill Kurt Cobain. They had Kurt lured to the greenhouse by a killer who injected him with a large quantity of heroin, made him shoot himself, added extra lines on to a Cobain-penned note, and carefully disrupted the fingerprints just enough to make them illegible. This ruse was sufficient enough to fool the Seattle Police Department and the Washington State Patrol, but was detected easily by a private investigator, a lawyer, Courtney Love's estranged father, and a Seattle public access host who runs around harassing Love and Charles Cross. "



Much like the results of Cobain's autopsy and post-mortem toxicology results, Courtney Love has absolutely no obligation to make available her deceased husband's suicide note. This is assuming that she still even has it. Were I in her position, I would've destroyed it; I imagine many would agree with me on that matter.

I wrote this message in a bit of a hurry, and I apologize if I came across as abrasive. It is not my intent to come across as disparaging to anyone, only to their ideas.

Ok lets start with the gun, I understand what your saying that with several people handling the gun it could be very well that you can lift a legible print off of it. But, think of it this way, all the shooter had to do was wear a glove and there would still be no legilble prints. Thats really all that would have had to have happened. Maybe if there was a killer he didnt bother to wipe the gun clean because he knew Cobains prints where on the gun and by simply putting a glove on he had no chance of his own prints showing up. Its a possibility.

I dont know why the Police would unload the weapon, Could be A. for safety reasons and B. They never viewed it as a murder weapon. Im just saying I have read several statements by different people that say the gun was fully loaded when found and Im pointing out that the police document you provided simply states the weapon was unloaded a month later when it was examined. I will look into this further.

Why am I hung up on Dewitt? Ok here goes, First off we know he had full access to the home Kurt was found in, infact we know he was there right around the time Kurt died. The police never viewed him as a suspect and cleared him with a simple phone call. They cleared Dewitt before they had even determined when approx. Kurt had died. I think that was premature. Yes he was friends with Courtney, yes he was in Rome when Kurt had his disputed suicide attempt and yes we know Courtney gave him 30 grand and sent him out of town right before Kurts body was discovered. Dewiit was an admitted heroin addict also, do you not think that Courtney as manipulating as she is couldnt talk him into taking part in this? Its possible and I think it should be looked into. His motive you ask? Like with most murders of this nature it would be money.

Courtney not releasing the medical report,
Surely your not suggesting that she wouldnt do this out of some sort of decency? This is the same person that was parading around Dance clubs with Kurts ashes. The same person that bragged about having sex with Billy Corgan with Kurts Urn next to the bed. She has no sense of decency or respect for her dead husband.

The ruse was sufficent enough to foul Seatlle police but not the others you mention:
Well I think they were fooled because they (like most people) assumed suicide and never investigated it as anything else. Tom Grant was actually closer to the case then anyone on the police dept. He had been dealing with Courtney for a week prior and knew things the police did not know. He also continued to investigate long after the police stopped. In his own words he was not convinced it was a murder right off the bat, he simply said they needed to slow down and not rush to judgement and the police ignored him. Courtney's father is just like her, ruthless, cold and calculating. He is accusing his own daughter of murder to make a buck. Grant wont have anything to do with him and neither will any other of the people that are legitimately asking for this case to be re-opened.

On the subject of Tom Grant:
We are not talking about some conspiracy threory nut that sits in his parents basement with a tin foil hat on waiting to claim his 15 minutes of fame. We are talking about a 20 year veteran of the La county sherrifs dept. A man who had a very successful PI firm in Holywood. He was on the payroll of Courtney and could have easily remained on her payroll by not making any of these accusations. Why would he want to go from highly respected investigator to conspiracy theory nut by making claims about Cobain being murdered if he indeed did not beileve it to be true. Grant was not hurting for money, he never sought publicity before. So why would he do this if he didnt honestly beileve he was on to something?

The same person that bragged about having sex with Billy Corgan with Kurts Urn next to the bed.

I have nothing to add to this except to say that sex with Billy Corgan is disturbing enough, but to have it next to an urn of Kurt Cobain's ashes? Sounds like a nightmare I had once.

Guilty or not, Courtney Love is an addled woman. Intentional or not, I think she's best summed as a proberbial piece of work.

I have nothing to add to this except to say that sex with Billy Corgan is disturbing enough, but to have it next to an urn of Kurt Cobain's ashes? Sounds like a nightmare I had once.

Guilty or not, Courtney Love is an addled woman. Intentional or not, I think she's best summed as a proberbial piece of work.

I will have to agree with that. It just sickens me when you look at Kurt, who was a highly talented muscian and artist and think that he was destroyed by a low life blood sucking parasite like her. I mean even if the whole murder conspiracy theory is bogus and he actually killed himself, she still was the cause of it. If not for Kurt she would be as unknown as Yoko Ono without John Lennon.

I will have to agree with that. It just sickens me when you look at Kurt, who was a highly talented muscian and artist and think that he was destroyed by a low life blood sucking parasite like her. I mean even if the whole murder conspiracy theory is bogus and he actually killed himself, she still was the cause of it. If not for Kurt she would be as unknown as Yoko Ono without John Lennon.

And Kurt idolized John Lennon. Coincidence?

Yeah the guy was depressed and drug addicted, which made him the perfect murder victim, as I believe he was murdered and that Courtney was behind it.
In a strange way he was the victim of his own success, but not in the way that it seems.

It occurs to me through different articles I've read and documentaries I've seen that Kurt didn't always know how to clarify his thoughts well, (verbally) which often times made him feel like an outsider and came across as extremely negative. His song writing and music was his life and he DID NOT WANT conform to pressure the music companies wanted him to. He just wanted out. I don't think he really wanted to fit in with the establishment and he couldn't go places much without being recognized. People like this often die young as they are moving on to other, better things. JMO.

If he wouldn't continue on being the money making machine that he had been, many people would lose a fortune. Courtney couldn't have that and planned the murder. She would NOT have the acting career she has today, had she not have been Kurt's wife. That is just obvious.

I think the worst mistake Kurt ever made was marrying Courtney. She is bad news and i wouldn't trust her further than i could throw her. Courtney is all about Courtney and the all-mighty-buck. Again, JMO.

I always am confused by this segment, but I think he commited suicide. the segment brings to light some interesting questions, but kurt did almost overdose a few weeks prior and he was always very dark and unhappy. he may have been aided in killing himself which could be a theory worth investigating? I do think that he wanted to die in the end. just my opinion and I loved his music and still do. I just think if he was murdered and did not kill himself there would have been more people come to his defense in the end to save his image and you didn't really get that. in so many of the suicide UM segments you see a lot of close friends and family come to the defense of the person. with kurt you really never see that unless i am wrong?

I always am confused by this segment, but I think he commited suicide. the segment brings to light some interesting questions, but kurt did almost overdose a few weeks prior and he was always very dark and unhappy. he may have been aided in killing himself which may be what happened? I do think that he wanted to die in the end. just my opinion and I loved his music and still do.

I think that's a possibility. I also believe that someone in the music industry may have wanted him dead because Kurt himself spoke of wanting to get away from the music scene and didn't want the stardom anymore and that may have made someone angry enough to harm him. Why? I don't know. :(

I think that's a possibility. I also believe that someone in the music industry may have wanted him dead because Kurt himself spoke of wanting to get away from the music scene and didn't want the stardom anymore and that may have made someone angry enough to harm him. Why? I don't know. :(
I don't know either. it appears that he did not like living in the limelight and many musicians get tired of it after so long....I can't see why anyone would have wanted to harm him though. he seemed like a very easy going dude, but who knows? maybe that was the public persona that he had because of the drugs. all i know is that cortney love was crazy....if i were married to her I would have wanted out. (joking, but she was crazy)

I don't know either. it appears that he did not like living in the limelight and many musicians get tired of it after so long....I can't see why anyone would have wanted to harm him though. he seemed like a very easy going dude, but who knows? maybe that was the public persona that he had because of the drugs. all i know is that cortney love was crazy....if i were married to her I would have wanted out. (joking, but she was crazy)

I think someone was going to lose alot of money when he left the music business and they got mad at him for that and killed him. Not 100% on that one but could be possible. I also agree with the public persona, I think it drained him in so many ways. I think he crumbled under the pressure of fame since not everyone can handle it well. He could've killed himself all by himself but the amount of drugs in him at that time makes that impossible for me to believe and I think someone was with him and possibly helped kill him.

It's really a shame, no matter what his cause of death was. I'm about 51/49% leaning towards murder. As a major Nirvana fan, I've read all the books, watched "Kurt and Courtney", read "Journals", when Courtney whored out his private writings to make a quick buck, and I'm still unsure. He wasn't ever a particularly happy guy, but in the months before his death, he was a lot happier than he had been in a long time. He had been clean from heroin for several months (the stomach pains that led to his heroin abuse were finally diagnosed as a pinched nerve, due to scoliosis, and, with the right treatment, gave heroin the boot), and this is documented by, not only, the bands he toured with, but bandmates (he played the entire Unplugged show going through heroin withdrawals). A lot of the suicide attempts claimed by Courtney were massively blown out of proportion (i.e, the incident in Rome that she claimed to be suicide, despite Kurt's stating it was an accident and the doctor who treated him saying he believed Kurt not to be suicidal and the incident to have been an accident). There's an incident some time in March, after the overdose in Rome, where Courtney called Seattle PD claiming Kurt was about to kill himself. When the police get there, Kurt said he was merely trying to keep away from Courtney. Several weeks later, those same police respond to a call of Kurt being dead with a shotgun in hand. With not only the media's treatment of Kurt, but their own dealings with him, OF COURSE Seattle PD assumed it as suicide. Courtney also had a close relationship with one of the people presiding over the investigation. Also, Kurt was, in one weeks time, going to remove Courtney from his will, indicating their relationship was on the rocks. I think Courtney knew she was losing the one person who made her relevant and that he was worth more dead than retired, and decided to kill him. I think she knew she was losing her meal ticket and offed him to keep her extravagant lifestyle in good shape. Kurt wasn't a guy who liked living the rockstar lifestyle, whereas she thrived on it. But, I can also see him, having realized how much damage divorce could cause Frances, (Kurt stated quite frequently his parents divorce messed him up) knowing the woman he loved couldn't care less about him and that he last all passion to do the thing he loved, deciding suicide was a better option. In all honesty, it's a shame he died and an even worse shame his wife possibly took his life and then later raped his music and legacy to earn her more money (his music was in sports games. If Kurt knew that, he would be turning enough to drill out of his grave). Whether it was murder OR suicide, one thing isn't debatable: Courtney Love is a waste of oxygen. Just look at the way she attacked her own daughter and started rumors about her.

I mean even if the whole murder conspiracy theory is bogus and he actually killed himself, she still was the cause of it. If not for Kurt she would be as unknown as Yoko Ono without John Lennon.
This is a colossally ignorant statement. Yoko Ono DID have a career in the art world before Lennon; she was part of Fluxus. Anyone with a brief acquaintance with late twentieth century art knows. Moreover, while it's true that Ono wouldn't have recorded albums without Lennon's prodding, her records are stunning works in their own right, quite different from Lennon's. Read interviews by Cyndi Lauper, The B-52's, Bowie, and Sleater Kinney, to name four, about her influence on them.

As for Love, she's a disturbed woman who doesn't deserve the custody of her child – who doesn't deserve to be around children, period – but she's created music on her own as compelling and often more compelling than her husband, as anyone who loves Live Through This can attest; she's an incisive lyricist and singer.

You're perpetuating a lot of misogynist clichés about female artists and the men in their lives, which is depressing in 2012.

I watched this case again and realized, where did the shotgun come from? Did he own a shotgun or any firearm? I also think the "suicide note" was just a goodbye note to the music business and was made to look like a suicide note when someone else added the extra lines to it to cover up a possible and to me a likely murder. Kurt was known to not be fond of the whole touring and fame aspect of being a singer even though I think he might've just enjoyed writing down his emotions into his lyrics and making songs about them.

Not all people who are depressed commit suicide. It's possible that someone wanted to end his "misery" but I lean on someone killing him for his money. The love of money is a sin and alot of people these days usually care more about money than people and their well-being. I think someone was like "boo hoo" and injected enough herion into him to subdue him before shooting him. A space above the garage is an odd place to kill yourself in but not totally unlikely.

I watched this case again and realized, where did the shotgun come from? Did he own a shotgun or any firearm?
A friend of Kurts, Dylan Carlson, bought it for him. Kurt said he needed it to protect the home from prowlers.

A lot of my friends from high school have insisted that Courtney murdered Cobain.

If Courtney did kill Cobain, then she's one hell of an actress when she publicly read that suicide note.

At the very least it is one very mysterious death and I certainly haven't assumed it was a suicide. It is similar to Mariyln Monroe (pills overdose) or Bobby Fuller who was found in the front seat of his car. There is no doubt in my mind someone is alive who knows more about all of these cases that could shed some light on them. Unfortunately it is 50 years since Marilyn's death and 46 since Fuller's. But Cobain only died 18 years ago and while this is a cold case, I still find it hard to believe he killed himself

You raise some interesting points. I'll start by saying that I found Eldon Hoke to be an interesting character. He had a hell of a story to tell, but I'm not sure if I believe it. IT IS POSSIBLE to pass a lie detector test while lying. There are ways to beat that system, so the fact that he passed a lie detector test doesn't do much for me. As to the circumstances surrounding his death, I'll just throw this out there: Eldon Hoke wasn't the most upstanding citizen in the world. He was downright shady. Who's to say that the circumstances surrounding his death had ANYTHING to do with the Courtney Love theory?

I'm not saying that I think Courtney Love is totally innocent (her behavior during Kurt's disappearance and suicide was strange, but she's strange...) but perhaps the reason that she isn't attacking the claims that she had Kurt murdered is because SHE'S INNOCENT, not to mention a media whore. Think about it. To someone like Courtney Love, who feeds on notoriety, even BAD publicity is better than NO PUBLICITY AT ALL. In addition, it's a basic rule of thumb that if you want to get people off of your back, the best defense is usually no defense. You defend yourself from ONE claim, and suddenly a bunch of others pop up. You use the example of Tom Cruise. How many times has he been accused of being gay now? I've lost count. You don't think that the claims have anything to do with the fact that Tom Cruise will respond to them, resulting in the publication getting their 15 minutes of fame? Who's to say that Tom Grant isn't out to get his 15 minutes of fame by accusing Love of murder?

In addition, in our country, a person doesn't have to prove that they are innocent. It's Tom Grant's burden of proof here. There's a lot of stuff that he brings up, but it's all circumstantial.

I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here, but I strongly feel as if Cobain committed suicide. You talk to the people that were closest to him, and the majority of them feel as if he did kill himself. They make no bones about not liking Courtney, but they feel that in the end, Cobain took his own life. Have you seen the documentary Kurt and Courtney by Nick Broomfield? Most of his family comment in the movie that they think he took his own life... I feel like that's pretty convincing evidence.

Bump

Ok I've been on a nirvana binge lately. I absolutely love Kurt cobain and have learned a lot about him. He is one intriguing fellow.

Honestly this is one of the best posts I've seen on the topic of whether he was murdered or took his life.

Ok creepy heart shaped box just started playing on AFN radio. Wow!


I too think he took his own life. I think that he wanted to shoot himself and took as much heroin as he could in the process. I personally feel he took heroin to fill his drug need and shot himself because I honestly think he wanted to inflict harm to his body. I also think he was starving for attention due to the void he had from his parents/childhood. All of these things would have made it tough for him to be married and raise a child as well. I think suicide was something that he planned for a long time and eventually when he saw his life spinning out of control more than ever he finally acted on it. He did not want to be with Courtney and couldn't handle the pressure of being a father or the lead man of the biggest band in rock. But he didn't want to divorce and go on living that disappointment that he dealt with all of his life.

As far as love....you know I don't know what to make of her actions. As well as the other deaths(narcotic agent/el douche). This certainly has a lot more to it than I initially knew.

I think she knew their relationship was near the end and knew that he wanted to kill himself and in some way may have just given up on him. Tom grant mentions that most spouses would rush to save their spouse under such circumstances. Well I think she knew what was coming and just let it happen. She hired him as a last ditch effort to show some sort of humanity in order to try to save him but at the same time it was a very lackluster effort on her part. She used the yellow pages and didn't give him all the tools to succeed. He also failed to find the garage. I wonder if she may have wanted Kurt to do it? I don't know. That could explain the motive of wanting to inherit his estate as well. I like what the Dr. Cyril said in the UM segment and sort of feel the same way. And for that I have no problem with the feature UM did. There is some doubt to the ruling and that it could be possible he was killed. You have 2 people hired by Courtney that basically turned on her which is notable. You have strange actions by her as well.

I think the best point of all though as you said is almost all of Kurts loved ones accepted the suicide ruling and many including grohl said that they saw it coming.

Bump

Ok I've been on a nirvana binge lately. I absolutely love Kurt cobain and have learned a lot about him. He is one intriguing fellow.

Honestly this is one of the best posts I've seen on the topic of whether he was murdered or took his life.

Ok creepy heart shaped box just started playing on AFN radio. Wow!


I too think he took his own life. I think that he wanted to shoot himself and took as much heroin as he could in the process. I personally feel he took heroin to fill his drug need and shot himself because I honestly think he wanted to inflict harm to his body. I also think he was starving for attention due to the void he had from his parents/childhood. All of these things would have made it tough for him to be married and raise a child as well. I think suicide was something that he planned for a long time and eventually when he saw his life spinning out of control more than ever he finally acted on it. He did not want to be with Courtney and couldn't handle the pressure of being a father or the lead man of the biggest band in rock. But he didn't want to divorce and go on living that disappointment that he dealt with all of his life.

As far as love....you know I don't know what to make of her actions. As well as the other deaths(narcotic agent/el douche). This certainly has a lot more to it than I initially knew.

I think she knew their relationship was near the end and knew that he wanted to kill himself and in some way may have just given up on him. Tom grant mentions that most spouses would rush to save their spouse under such circumstances. Well I think she knew what was coming and just let it happen. She hired him as a last ditch effort to show some sort of humanity in order to try to save him but at the same time it was a very lackluster effort on her part. She used the yellow pages and didn't give him all the tools to succeed. He also failed to find the garage. I wonder if she may have wanted Kurt to do it? I don't know. That could explain the motive of wanting to inherit his estate as well. I like what the Dr. Cyril said in the UM segment and sort of feel the same way. And for that I have no problem with the feature UM did. There is some doubt to the ruling and that it could be possible he was killed. You have 2 people hired by Courtney that basically turned on her which is notable. You have strange actions by her as well.

I think the best point of all though as you said is almost all of Kurts loved ones accepted the suicide ruling and many including grohl said that they saw it coming.

Thanks. I appreciate that.

As a side note, it's fun to note that I've done a complete 180 on this. I started the whole thing believing that Courtney Love killed Kurt or at least had some sort of role in it. I bought "Love and Death" and read as much stuff on the conspiracy as I could.

I now firmly believe this was a suicide. He had years of mental health issues, in addition to excruciating stomach problems. He was not doing well handling the level of fame he had achieved. I think he wanted out. The other stuff in the case is no doubt mysterious, but at the end of the day, I believe one person pulled the trigger on Kurt, and that was Kurt himself.

Thanks. I appreciate that.

As a side note, it's fun to note that I've done a complete 180 on this. I started the whole thing believing that Courtney Love killed Kurt or at least had some sort of role in it. I bought "Love and Death" and read as much stuff on the conspiracy as I could.

I now firmly believe this was a suicide. He had years of mental health issues, in addition to excruciating stomach problems. He was not doing well handling the level of fame he had achieved. I think he wanted out. The other stuff in the case is no doubt mysterious, but at the end of the day, I believe one person pulled the trigger on Kurt, and that was Kurt himself.

Me too I flipped and flopped. and I don't think Courtney wanted him to die. I think it was just a situation where she could have done nothing to stop it. And with her being on drugs and making an album during all that it didn't help. It is strange how her PI turned on her but at the same time they had no prior allegiance to one another. She panicked and just hired anyone nearby and it backfired. She became the goat and so many of Nirvana fans blame her to vent their loss.

Has anyone changed their opinion since watching soaked in bleach? I have never seen anything from Dave grohl stating that he saw the suicide coming. I don't believe that Kurt an Dave were even speaking anymore an nirvana was going to break up or at least take a long break. The last family memeber who spoke to Kurt before his death was his grandfather Leland. He never believed Kurt committed suicide.

Every time I see this case I have to re look into it. If you remove the (he tried to kill his self before) I go to murder. There is so much information that gives the idea he did not take his own life or at least the possibility that someone took his life... I go back to the daughter, by all accounts he loved her very much. He and Love where no parents of the year, but knowing how bad Love was I just cant see him killing his self and leaving the baby with Love.

I go back to the daughter, by all accounts he loved her very much. He and Love where no parents of the year, but knowing how bad Love was I just cant see him killing his self and leaving the baby with Love.

Hey, however bad Courtney Love is as a mother, it's not like Kurt Cobain was Ward Cleaver.

Again the fact that people find the idea of a guy with a major drug habit, a documented history of mental illness, AND a record of previous suicide attempts, actually committing suicide to be so inexplicable, never fails to make me :rolleyes:

Hey, however bad Courtney Love is as a mother, it's not like Kurt Cobain was Ward Cleaver.

Again the fact that people find the idea of a guy with a major drug habit, a documented history of mental illness, AND a record of previous suicide attempts, actually committing suicide to be so inexplicable, never fails to make me :rolleyes:
True add failed marriage(possible infidelity that ruined close friendships), failed band(self inflicted with drugs), and really failing at life in general. He could not stop using drugs in spite of trying to stop and lost contact with every close friend and family member.

the more I watched Kurt stuff..there is a lot online... the more I believe his suicide is fairly straightforward. I was always a nirvana fan but did not know much about his suicide as I was in elementary school when it happened. I saw the UM segment a few times but it's not the best and I agree with some that say it could of been scratched. Soaked in bleach is good if you are on that side. It will leave you questioning kortney love big time. if you want to believe he was murdered it Will all add up once you watch.

Has anyone changed their opinion since watching soaked in bleach? I have never seen anything from Dave grohl stating that he saw the suicide coming. I don't believe that Kurt an Dave were even speaking anymore an nirvana was going to break up or at least take a long break. The last family memeber who spoke to Kurt before his death was his grandfather Leland. He never believed Kurt committed suicide.
I don't know if grohl ever spoke on the record about kurts suicide or no suicide topic. And it might be some guilt there because I'm sure they all felt helpless toward the end of kurts life. I know grohl has said that he and Kurt at times bumped heads and he felt like an outsider because he was not their original drummer. like he always needed to try to please Kurt/krist with his presence in the band. Maybe taking a back seat if you will. Because of his fame now it's hard to see him in that role. He also spoke highly of the bond between krist and Kurt and acknowledged that Kurt spoke highly of his(daves)songs before he died. But it is clear that nirvana had issues in the last year or so. I think most of it was because of kurts drug problem not so much anything else. It ruined the band. And while grohl doesn't speak of it on the record krist has several times(kurts closer friend) and he is certain Kurt committed suicide.

Hey, however bad Courtney Love is as a mother, it's not like Kurt Cobain was Ward Cleaver.

Again the fact that people find the idea of a guy with a major drug habit, a documented history of mental illness, AND a record of previous suicide attempts, actually committing suicide to be so inexplicable, never fails to make me :rolleyes:
There is no past record of suicide attempts though. He had an overdose scare which Courtney and only Courtney later described as suicide attempt.

I don't know if grohl ever spoke on the record about kurts suicide or no suicide topic. And it might be some guilt there because I'm sure they all felt helpless toward the end of kurts life. I know grohl has said that he and Kurt at times bumped heads and he felt like an outsider because he was not their original drummer. like he always needed to try to please Kurt/krist with his presence in the band. Maybe taking a back seat if you will. Because of his fame now it's hard to see him in that role. He also spoke highly of the bond between krist and Kurt and acknowledged that Kurt spoke highly of his(daves)songs before he died. But it is clear that nirvana had issues in the last year or so. I think most of it was because of kurts drug problem not so much anything else. It ruined the band. And while grohl doesn't speak of it on the record krist has several times(kurts closer friend) and he is certain Kurt committed suicide.
Kurts close friend? Are you talking about the heroin junkie that got the shotgun for him? I think is name was Dylan. Saw an interview with him where he basically fell into a coma while talking. And what did you mean about a failed band? Nirvana was the top selling band of the 90s and Kurt the most in demand musician on earth at the time of his death. The new documentary shows that it's most likely a murder. Even the ex police chief said he would re open the case if he was still in the force.

Kurts close friend? Are you talking about the heroin junkie that got the shotgun for him? I think is name was Dylan. Saw an interview with him where he basically fell into a coma while talking. And what did you mean about a failed band? Nirvana was the top selling band of the 90s and Kurt the most in demand musician on earth at the time of his death. The new documentary shows that it's most likely a murder. Even the ex police chief said he would re open the case if he was still in the force.
No I was talking of krist novaselic being a closer friend than Dave grohl. He says he thinks Kurt took his own life. And krist is a smart guy. I feel if anyone would think kurt was murdered it would be him(if it were true).

Since you brought up the heroin junkie...yeah I would not take him or any of the others seriously. He wants to play along like a conspiracy and then after the fact changes his story and bashes the investigator leading the conspiracy charge. don't know what he had to gain by getting involved.

And you misunderstood me. Nirvana was failed in kurts mind at that point. Contrary to public thought what we knew then and what we know now en utereo did not go well for the band(for what Kurt wanted). it was a massive struggle for them and there are documentaries about it now with krist and dave grohl basically supporting this. He was not happy with the public perception of the band in that time. It just goes back to his mental state. Nothing would have been good enough for him. Nirvana in reality was great Kurt just did not cope with it. he also did not want to tour with la la palozza. he wanted to do a completely different type of thing musically. love was also romantic with billy corgan. just assuming he wanted nothing to do with those two.

If by new documentary you mean soaked in bleach it is not new and it is not a good documentary imo. It is a conspiracy movie. It is good for what the intention is set out to do. If there is another new documentary I have not seen it yet.

There is no past record of suicide attempts though. He had an overdose scare which Courtney and only Courtney later described as suicide attempt.
have you seen montage of heck? it is a documentary of kurt based on his own tape recordings, journals, and art collection. I believe kurt on tape discusses a prior suicide attempt he had as a teen. I could be off on the details I've only seen it once. but it is worth watching if you are a cobain fan.

Nirvana was the top selling band of the 90s and Kurt the most in demand musician on earth at the time of his death.

I was a huge fan of Nirvana, but neither one of those statements are even remotely close to being true and are pure hyperbole. Did they sell a lot of records? Absolutely. However, so many other artists sold a lot more records in the 90s than they did. Nevermind was a massive success, but In Utero was a huge step down in sales as a follow up. In fact, it fell off the charts relatively quickly and didn't really regain steam until after Kurt's death.

They toured pretty extensively between 91-94 and never really graduated to playing large arenas or full size stadiums and pretty much were stuck playing mid-level venues with a few rare exceptions when they were playing a larger festival. I saw them in 1993 and the venue had a capacity of 5,500 people (it was the local college basketball team's place) and the show didn't even sell out. I lived in a large city at that time too, so it wasn't like it was the middle of nowhere either. In fact, I saw Metallica in the same city just a few months later and they sold out the local NBA team's arena with a capacity of 25,000 within a week of the tickets going on sale. Nirvana were certainly successful, but not nearly as much as most people think they were. I chalk that up to rose-colored-glasses syndrome.

As far as the topic at hand is concerned, I agree with whomever opined that the UM segment about Kurt was pretty lousy and not on par with most UM segments. In retrospect, it's one case that they probably should have left alone. Not only for the reason that it wasn't well done, but also because there just isn't a genuine "mystery" here. I was in high school at the time of Kurt's death and have always thought from day one that he committed suicide and have never wavered from that standpoint. When I was still a teenager back in the mid 90s, it was fun to play the "what if" game and discuss the conspiracy theories with my friends but now as an adult, I just don't see any reason to keep going in circles. I'm certainly no fan of Courtney Love, but she was so scatterbrained and strung out during all of this that there's no way she could have pulled this off and maintained enough to cover it up. I've seen and dealt with enough junkies in my day to know better.

I was a huge fan of Nirvana, but neither one of those statements are even remotely close to being true and are pure hyperbole. Did they sell a lot of records? Absolutely. However, so many other artists sold a lot more records in the 90s than they did. Nevermind was a massive success, but In Utero was a huge step down in sales as a follow up. In fact, it fell off the charts relatively quickly and didn't really regain steam until after Kurt's death.

They toured pretty extensively between 91-94 and never really graduated to playing large arenas or full size stadiums and pretty much were stuck playing mid-level venues with a few rare exceptions when they were playing a larger festival. I saw them in 1993 and the venue had a capacity of 5,500 people (it was the local college basketball team's place) and the show didn't even sell out. I lived in a large city at that time too, so it wasn't like it was the middle of nowhere either. In fact, I saw Metallica in the same city just a few months later and they sold out the local NBA team's arena with a capacity of 25,000 within a week of the tickets going on sale. Nirvana were certainly successful, but not nearly as much as most people think they were. I chalk that up to rose-colored-glasses syndrome.

As far as the topic at hand is concerned, I agree with whomever opined that the UM segment about Kurt was pretty lousy and not on par with most UM segments. In retrospect, it's one case that they probably should have left alone. Not only for the reason that it wasn't well done, but also because there just isn't a genuine "mystery" here. I was in high school at the time of Kurt's death and have always thought from day one that he committed suicide and have never wavered from that standpoint. When I was still a teenager back in the mid 90s, it was fun to play the "what if" game and discuss the conspiracy theories with my friends but now as an adult, I just don't see any reason to keep going in circles. I'm certainly no fan of Courtney Love, but she was so scatterbrained and strung out during all of this that there's no way she could have pulled this off and maintained enough to cover it up. I've seen and dealt with enough junkies in my day to know better.
thanks for the post. that certainly clears things up even more for me because I was younger kurt was alive. I remember nevermind a lot more because of its popularity with MTV and constant radio play. now that I recall it wasn't until a year or so after he died that some of the songs from en utero got serious radio time(as I recall). he was this larger than life figure for my generation, but that was not until he died that he had that persona. like 2pac, or selena(for the Hispanic community). basically the same thing there just different styles and genres. and that is not to say none of these were popular while they were alive. it just goes to show that after they died they became legendary with the mainstream out of their inner circles.

there is a documentary that dave grohl/krist novaselic did for a recent anniversary of en utero's release. it is very good. it breaks it all down. without getting too far in depth they basically show how hard it was for them to try to stay nirvana while appealing to the mainstream. basically in the end the mainstream won over and that did not sit well with kurt which is why he looked at the band as a failure. that's my take at least. there were a lot of contradictions there with kurt as if he was completely unsure of himself. he wanted to be popular..but he didn't...etc.

have you seen montage of heck? it is a documentary of kurt based on his own tape recordings, journals, and art collection. I believe kurt on tape discusses a prior suicide attempt he had as a teen. I could be off on the details I've only seen it once. but it is worth watching if you are a cobain fan.
Yes I have seen that but did not recall an actual suicide attempt. I will watch it again. I have seen and read about everything on cobain

I was a huge fan of Nirvana, but neither one of those statements are even remotely close to being true and are pure hyperbole. Did they sell a lot of records? Absolutely. However, so many other artists sold a lot more records in the 90s than they did. Nevermind was a massive success, but In Utero was a huge step down in sales as a follow up. In fact, it fell off the charts relatively quickly and didn't really regain steam until after Kurt's death.

They toured pretty extensively between 91-94 and never really graduated to playing large arenas or full size stadiums and pretty much were stuck playing mid-level venues with a few rare exceptions when they were playing a larger festival. I saw them in 1993 and the venue had a capacity of 5,500 people (it was the local college basketball team's place) and the show didn't even sell out. I lived in a large city at that time too, so it wasn't like it was the middle of nowhere either. In fact, I saw Metallica in the same city just a few months later and they sold out the local NBA team's arena with a capacity of 25,000 within a week of the tickets going on sale. Nirvana were certainly successful, but not nearly as much as most people think they were. I chalk that up to rose-colored-glasses syndrome.

As far as the topic at hand is concerned, I agree with whomever opined that the UM segment about Kurt was pretty lousy and not on par with most UM segments. In retrospect, it's one case that they probably should have left alone. Not only for the reason that it wasn't well done, but also because there just isn't a genuine "mystery" here. I was in high school at the time of Kurt's death and have always thought from day one that he committed suicide and have never wavered from that standpoint. When I was still a teenager back in the mid 90s, it was fun to play the "what if" game and discuss the conspiracy theories with my friends but now as an adult, I just don't see any reason to keep going in circles. I'm certainly no fan of Courtney Love, but she was so scatterbrained and strung out during all of this that there's no way she could have pulled this off and maintained enough to cover it up. I've seen and dealt with enough junkies in my day to know better.
I remember being a teen in 1994 and how big nirvana was. He had that micheal Jackson/ Elvis Status. Which explains why MTV **** down for a week over his death devoting all programming to him. Cannot think of any other time that happened. With in utero Kurt clearly stated he wanted o alienate the audience and hoped that it would only sell one quarter of what Nevermind did. Not many bands are so big they can set a goal to lose audience and still be on top. They had constant radio play and their videos aired night and day. In utero went multi platinum the first week and ended up selling 15 million copies. Not exactly mush of a downturn.
You can't really compare them with Metallica who had been around since the early 80s and established a fan base from several generations. Kurt never wanted to play stadiums or large venues anyhow.

I would like to know your thoughts on his suicide note. What do you think about Courtney having a copy of that note with her at the time of his death? This was seen by both rosemary carroll and tom grant. There are several taped phone conversations where grant discusses it with both Carroll and Love

I would like to know your thoughts on his suicide note. What do you think about Courtney having a copy of that note with her at the time of his death? This was seen by both rosemary carroll and tom grant. There are several tapes phone conversations where grant discusses it with both Carroll and Love[/QUOTE]


I have never heard of this... Do tell more.

I would like to know your thoughts on his suicide note. What do you think about Courtney having a copy of that note with her at the time of his death? This was seen by both rosemary carroll and tom grant. There are several tapes phone conversations where grant discusses it with both Carroll and Love


I have never heard of this... Do tell more.[/QUOTE]
Courtney and Kurts family attorney, Rosemary Carroll called tom grant to tell him that Courtney had left a bag at her house and she had found notes that Courtney had written inside. Some were practice versions of Kurt suicide note. Grant talked to Courtney about this. All these conversations were recorded and our available online but I know we can't post links here. I'm sure you know where to look

In utero went multi platinum the first week and ended up selling 15 million copies.

It sold 180,000 in the first week and as of this day has sold a little over 4 million total, the majority of which after his death. I don't know where you're getting your numbers from, but it certainly isn't a reliable source like Billboard, ASCAP or SoundScan.

As far as the "practice suicide notes" are concerned, I don't buy it. The conspiracy is strong in this one.

To be fair, maybe kane7474 meant 15 million worldwide. It's true that in the United States In Utero lost the battle against Pearl Jam's Vs.

It sold 180,000 in the first week and as of this day has sold a little over 4 million total, the majority of which after his death. I don't know where you're getting your numbers from, but it certainly isn't a reliable source like Billboard, ASCAP or SoundScan.

As far as the "practice suicide notes" are concerned, I don't buy it. The conspiracy is strong in this one.
For me the proof lies in the mixture of drugs and alcohol that he took in Rome. He did that. I do believe that was a suicide attempt.

He had also OD'd heroine before. although those may have not been active suicide attempts clearly he was extremely careless.

To be fair, maybe kane7474 meant 15 million worldwide. It's true that in the United States In Utero lost the battle against Pearl Jam's Vs.

Just goes to show that Nirvana wasn't even the most successful band from their own hometown. While I loved their music growing up and still like it to this day, Pearl Jam, Soundgarden and especially Alice In Chains all were better musicians and had superior songwriters in their respective bands. Jerry Cantrell is the ultimate God of Seattle rock to me, not Cobain.

In any event, Cobain killed himself. Open and shut case IMO.

I preferred Hole and still long for a completely listenable Courtney Love solo album (her 2004 album was half great).

They tend to overrate dead singers even more than other dead celebrities.

They tend to overrate dead singers even more than other dead celebrities.

Everyone's a legend once they die. ;)

I saw this investigators documentary on Netflix , "Soaked in Bleach". Although I think he is honest and very genuine in his belief, I think he's wrong. He is correct when he says most people don't act like Courtney Love. However, it's not because she's a murderer. It's because she's similar to other narrassistic drug addicted celebrities in the height of their fame (Anna Nicole, Lindsay Lohan, etc). They lie and manipulate all those around them. Of course she lied. Of course she was flighty. Of course she wasn't totally forthcoming. Courtney love in all likelyhood also has a serious personality disorder on top of addiction and fame. Her own daughter bolted from her. It's sad actually. Not to mention most close to Kurt at that time were also addicts. Kurt commited suicude. He had almost taken himself out just weeks prior in Rome. He was depressed, addicted and recently bought a shotgun before being forced into rehab. The amount of heroin injected isn't even that shocking. He had a high tolerance. He just survived a massive overdose in Rome. He made sure this time he wouldn't survive. I just don't think this is a mystery at all.

Also, with the suicide note...who knows. The part which appears different from the rest? The jury is out with the experts on that anyways. However, it honestly wouldn't shock me if Courtney Love added it at the end because she thought it would look better or garner her more sympathy from fans and the media. Again, nothing to do with murder but just part of the personality disorder and "me me me" view of the world.

As for the lawyer of Kurt/Courtney's who told the investigator she was suspicious of Courtney? Honestly, that just goes back to Courtney's incredibly narrasistic and addict personality/tendencies.

I saw this investigators documentary on Netflix , "Soaked in Bleach". Although I think he is honest and very genuine in his belief, I think he's wrong. He is correct when he says most people don't act like Courtney Love. However, it's not because she's a murderer. It's because she's similar to other narrassistic drug addicted celebrities in the height of their fame (Anna Nicole, Lindsay Lohan, etc). They lie and manipulate all those around them. Of course she lied. Of course she was flighty. Of course she wasn't totally forthcoming. Courtney love in all likelyhood also has a serious personality disorder on top of addiction and fame. Her own daughter bolted from her. It's sad actually. Not to mention most close to Kurt at that time were also addicts. Kurt commited suicude. He had almost taken himself out just weeks prior in Rome. He was depressed, addicted and recently bought a shotgun before being forced into rehab. The amount of heroin injected isn't even that shocking. He had a high tolerance. He just survived a massive overdose in Rome. He made sure this time he wouldn't survive. I just don't think this is a mystery at all.

Also, with the suicide note...who knows. The part which appears different from the rest? The jury is out with the experts on that anyways. However, it honestly wouldn't shock me if Courtney Love added it at the end because she thought it would look better or garner her more sympathy from fans and the media. Again, nothing to do with murder but just part of the personality disorder and "me me me" view of the world.

As for the lawyer of Kurt/Courtney's who told the investigator she was suspicious of Courtney? Honestly, that just goes back to Courtney's incredibly narrasistic and addict personality/tendencies.

Those are all great points. In Rome they had some kind of a falling out and he tried to kill himself. According to love she rejected him and he took it badly. Afterward she forced an awkward intervention on him in front of a lot of people(all whilst being a user herself) and threatened to take the child away from him. Upon that he agreed to rehab but at some point made the decision to go forward with suicide. He was too far gone and the people closest to him either pushed him along or could do nothing for him.

Also, with the suicide note...who knows. The part which appears different from the rest? The jury is out with the experts on that anyways. However, it honestly wouldn't shock me if Courtney Love added it at the end because she thought it would look better or garner her more sympathy from fans and the media. Again, nothing to do with murder but just part of the personality disorder and "me me me" view of the world.


I always wondered if the handwriting issue could be explained as "Kurt had taken a whole lot of heroin and it was finally kicking in."

It seems more likely than Courtney Love being a Machiavellian genius.

Today is the 25th anniversary of Kurt Cobain's death. I never believed that he killed himself. He was addicted to drugs, and depressed, but not all people hooked on narcotics and have clinical depression kill themselves. I think it was a money grab. Kurt was going to put an end to his music career, which was going to cost a lot of people a lot of money, but I don't see how killing him would have stopped that, unless he had a big inheritance waiting in the wings or someone wanted creative control of his output and making money off of that still. A lot of people feel that Courtney Love killed him, but why? Was it for money? Fame? Was he going to leave her and break her heart?

Could a random junkie have gotten high with Kurt, killed him and then used his credit card? Maybe someone Kurt knew was with him when he died. I don't think if you are so high and loopy on drugs that you can get a proper grip on a shotgun trigger and focus that right to your head. I will not believe that Kurt Cobain committed suicide, unless definitive proof of him being alone in that garage can be explained logically.

I always thought that the fact he ditched rehab alone is enough to say he had no plans to live.

There is also a death photo of some kind of abrasion on his thumb that could have only come if he had pulled the trigger and been pinched by it himself.

I know some people just "need to believe" because the simplest explanation just can't "be".

Detective who reviewed Kurt Cobain's death file details evidence (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/kurt-cobain-death-detective-who-reviewed-kurt-cobains-case-file-details-evidence/)

If KC hadn't shot himself, he would have surely died from the valium and heroin he had ingested which was several times the lethal limit, even for someone with a tolerance.

For me, that has always been the clinching fact that he had no desire to be alive anymore. It's sad and as a fan at the time, it really did break my heart; I'm a Gen X'er. First there was River Phoenix and then Cobain.

There is simply no credible evidence that KC's death was anything but a suicide. Let the man rest in peace.

I know some people just "need to believe" because the simplest explanation just can't "be".

There is simply no credible evidence that KC's death was anything but a suicide. Let the man rest in peace.


Exactly. The size of the controversy is always in direct proportion to the personality involved, never the facts. See JFK, RFK, and Marylin Monroe. Sirhan Sirhan shot Robert Kennedy in front of hundreds of witnesses and was apprehended on the spot, by football player Rosey Grier, who is still alive. And yet RFK's own son doesn't think Sirhan Sirhan did it!

https://www.newsweek.com/robert-f-kennedys-jr-thinks-sirhan-did-not-act-alone-fathers-assassination-946078

Truth from the last 3 posts. If you watch the UM segment and other conspiracy angles they show unsubstantiated viewpoints about Kurt. One common place is that many of the people or witnesses that feel Kurt was murdered, well they never actually knew him in any way shape or form. Many of those final witnesses that saw him and knew him know that he was suicidal and his wife (like her or not...I don’t) hired an investigator(albeit a poor one) to follow Kurt because she did fear for his life. Kurt was done with living plain and simple. And the UM segment never should have happened.

I know some people just "need to believe" because the simplest explanation just can't "be".

Detective who reviewed Kurt Cobain's death file details evidence (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/kurt-cobain-death-detective-who-reviewed-kurt-cobains-case-file-details-evidence/)

If KC hadn't shot himself, he would have surely died from the valium and heroin he had ingested which was several times the lethal limit, even for someone with a tolerance.

For me, that has always been the clinching fact that he had no desire to be alive anymore. It's sad and as a fan at the time, it really did break my heart; I'm a Gen X'er. First there was River Phoenix and then Cobain.

There is simply no credible evidence that KC's death was anything but a suicide. Let the man rest in peace.

Agree 100%

UM did a lot of dumb, ratings-chasing segments over the years, but this is arguably the most contemptible. EVERYONE who dealt with Cobain over the last few months of his life would later recall how desperate and depressed he was; he regularly talked about ending his life, he had an out of control drug addition while his band and his marriage were falling apart, had made a suicide attempt by overdose a month previously and had ready access to guns.

The idea that Courtney had him killed is insane. She had TWICE saved his life over the past year (once by calling the cops when he locked himself in a bathroom with a gun, secondly by calling doctors after the above overdose) and called the cops and a PI after he disappeared; Cobain also wrote a lengthy note that no one has ever credibly challenged as inauthentic.

Stuff like this makes me wonder what sort of circumstances would have to exist for a famous person's death NOT to attract conspiracy mongers - it seems that unless they are over 85 or there is a long record of hospitalisation with a fatal illness, then pretty much any celebrity death will attract strange people "just asking questions"...:confused:

This recent article states that the FBI has production notes, among other things, from the time that Unsolved Mysteries aired Kurt's story in 1997: https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_6099d410e4b069dc48f1793a/amp

Hands-down the most ridiculous story UM did in it's history. As with many suicides, the stigma surrounding it is enough for friends, family, and the public to refuse the fact, and make up wild conspiracies in regards to Kurt being murdered.

Let's look at some reasons that Cobain may have taken his life:

-he had a family history of suicide, with 3 family members ending their lives by suicide.
-he was diagnosed with bipolar depression
-he was an outcast, and ostracized at school
-he consumed drugs beginning at 13 (alcohol and pot)
-he would brag to friends in his teens that his life goal was to "become a famous rock star, then blow his brains out"
-when on tour, he was often depressed and withdrawn
-in 1989, he climbed up a 15-20 foot stage, and threatened to jump to his death in Italy
-his breakdown was caused by "the people in the audience reminded me of my high school bullies"
-tried heroin for the first time in 89
-by fall of 1990 after signing with DGC, Kurt began using heroin more often, but still infrequet
-after Nevermind exploded in late 91, Cobain did his second tour of Europe, and would shoot heroin when available
-by January 1992, he was a full fledged addict
-overdosed for the first time after the SNL performance. Revived by Love
-after the tour ended in late Feb 92, married Courtney (a heroin user), and proceeded to do heroin on a regular basis until he did rehab before his daughter was born
-a day after Frances Bean was born, the infamous "Vanity Fair" article came out, calling them junkies, similar to Sid and Nancy, and accusing Love of shooting heroin on a regular basis after pregnancy (not true)
-Cobain aware of the repercussions of the article, went out for hours, came back with a loaded gun and a bag of heroin, asking Love to do a double suicide (she refused)
-between 1992 and 1994, it's estimated that Cobain Overdosed at least 12 times
-Nirvana released a song called "I Hate Myself and Want to Die" 4 months before his suicide
-on the set of Unplugged in NY, Cobain insisted the set be decorated by a funeral procession
-most of the songs on IN Utero deal with depression/suicide related topics
-"You Know Youre Right" clearly sounds like a song insinuating that he was planning to die (see the lyrics)
-Cobain clearly did not want to tour, and acted depressed withdrawn, and had mood swings
-pics from his tour of Europe picture a man who was arguably dying, as the heroin effects were so obvious that he wore eyeliner and makeup to hide the effects of the drug
-suicide attempt in Rome exactly one month before his demise, where he barely survived
-in the last month of his life, was doing dangerous amounts of heroin, locked himself in his washroom, and threatened to blow his brains in (Police removed his weapons)
-finally went to rehab in LA, at the end of March. During the drive with Novoselic to the airport, Kurt tried everything to force himself out of a moving vehicle, cried, and finally when at the airport, attached Novoselic, before running away.
-checked out of the treatment centre 2 days after arriving by scaling a 6 foot fence
-witnesses who saw him withdrawal money from the bank, say that he was in such rough shape, he could barely sign cheques to be cashed.
-Cobain ends up buying enough heroin to kill a horse the last time he was in public, and obtained a firearm.
-Cobain kills himself on April 5
-body discovered with gun in left hand (he was left handed) with a bruised knuckle from firing the gun (which indicates he pulled the trigger)
-wrote a suicide note

And there are people dumb enough to believe he was murdered....lol

Truth from the last 3 posts. If you watch the UM segment and other conspiracy angles they show unsubstantiated viewpoints about Kurt. One common place is that many of the people or witnesses that feel Kurt was murdered, well they never actually knew him in any way shape or form. Many of those final witnesses that saw him and knew him know that he was suicidal and his wife (like her or not...I don’t) hired an investigator(albeit a poor one) to follow Kurt because she did fear for his life. Kurt was done with living plain and simple. And the UM segment never should have happened.

All the weirdos came out of the woodwork, to state Courtney killed Cobain.

Love's estranged father, who lost custody of her for giving her drugs at 5 years old, and had not spoken to her for years, contacted "High Times" that did a ridiculous story called "Who Killed Kurt?" in 1996
-El Duce of a band called "The Mentors" claimed that Courtney offered him $50,000 to murder Cobain. Only problem is that El Duce was a known ********ter, addict, and never met or spoke to Love.
-El Duce later joked with his inner circle that High TImes had paid him well for his contribution to the story, and ridiculed the magazine for being so gullible.
-After 32 years, there is no credible evidence to suggest anything but a suicide

All the weirdos came out of the woodwork, to state Courtney killed Cobain.

Love's estranged father, who lost custody of her for giving her drugs at 5 years old, and had not spoken to her for years, contacted "High Times" that did a ridiculous story called "Who Killed Kurt?" in 1996
-El Duce of a band called "The Mentors" claimed that Courtney offered him $50,000 to murder Cobain. Only problem is that El Duce was a known ********ter, addict, and never met or spoke to Love.
-El Duce later joked with his inner circle that High TImes had paid him well for his contribution to the story, and ridiculed the magazine for being so gullible.
-After 32 years, there is no credible evidence to suggest anything but a suicide

yeah that guy El Duce was a piece of deuce literally.

the suicide attempt in Rome is very telling. krist novaselic said that Kurt was never the same after that.

I was a huge fan of Nirvana, but neither one of those statements are even remotely close to being true and are pure hyperbole. Did they sell a lot of records? Absolutely. However, so many other artists sold a lot more records in the 90s than they did. Nevermind was a massive success, but In Utero was a huge step down in sales as a follow up. In fact, it fell off the charts relatively quickly and didn't really regain steam until after Kurt's death.

In Utero sold over 15 million units Worldwide. It also went to #1 on the Billboard top 200. Calling it a "Huge step down" is unfair, when it is compared to Nevermind, which happens to be one of the best selling albums of all time. In addition, Cobain deliberately made In Utero not commercially friendly, hiring producer Steve Albini, a producer outspoken in his criticism of the mainstream music industry, as he was know to work with independant artists, and produce raw and abstract albums, which gave In Utero it's sound.

Cobain was a sensitive artist, and the scene he was part of (Olympia, Washington), frowned upon selling out to major record labels. He wanted to regain his "punk credentials," which is why he refused to make an album like Nevermind. IN 1991, Cobain had said that he wanted to make a more pop-rock, "radio friendly" album, in hopes of making it big (Kurt Cobain was full of contradictions, and never intended Nevermind to be a generational changing album).


They toured pretty extensively between 91-94 and never really graduated to playing large arenas or full size stadiums and pretty much were stuck playing mid-level venues with a few rare exceptions when they were playing a larger festival.

Nirvana, and later Pearl Jam, did not want to tour arenas. Nirvana had offers from several established bands in late 91, including Metallica, Guns N Roses, U2, Van Halen, Skid Row, and others, who were desperate to have Nirvana tour with them. Cobain did not want to play at 15,000 seat gigs. Nirvana did not tour much at all after the conclusion of the Australia/Oceania leg of the turn in February 1992. Once Cobain married Courtney Love in Hawaii at the end of February, he did not tour until the beginning of October 1993, only doing the occasional festival and stadium shows.

It should be known that he was literally forced by his record company to eventually play arena gigs by the time the In Utero tour began in the fall of 1993. It should also be known that in 1992-93, Nirvana were headlining major festival concerts like Reading (UK), Argentina, and Brazil. If Cobain had not died, Nirvana would have headlined Lollapalooza in 1994. Aside from that, bands like Motley Crue and Poison, who only would dream of achieving the popularity that Nirvana did in their prime, had been touring arenas for years.

Ok you talk about the documentary only interviewing Junkies and drug addicts. Well keep in mind this is what Kurt was. Did Kurt have any educated intelligent friends that could shed light on what happened? Probably not. The man himself was a reject and prided himself on the fact so ofcourse when they interview people that knew him there going to be the same type of people as he was.

Of course Kurt Cobain has intelligent friends. Between 1987-91, he became immense in the music scene in Olympia, Washington, which is the state capital, and place with a metro area of 350,000 people, an hour southwest of the much larger Seattle-Tacoma metro area (4.5 million).

Evergreen had a counterculture scene, which Evergreen State College was the epicenter for. The irony is that many in the music sense which gave birth to SubPop and Grunge, looked down upon Kurt, since he was from a small logging town, and he dropped out of school at 17, as most were either attending college, or had graduated arts programs from college.

If one were to look at the people Kurt was close to, most were either college students in bands, or musically talented. Sadly during his last couple of years of his life, especially after the Vanity Fair article came out, he pushed away most of the people trying to help him, and hung out with others that did not have his best interest in mind (fellow junkie musicians, music fans enabling him, etc).

Calling Cobain a "reject" is so narrow minded. Most people who change the World, fall into this category. Normal people do not understand them. This goes for champion fighters, inventors, scientists, artists, musicians,etc. Chris Cornell, Axl Rose, and others in the same scene, were outcasts as well. Should we write them off, since they were not popular with their peers?