Facts and information intentionally withheld by UM you wish you were privy to...

[justins5256]

Throughout the history of the show, there are certain aspects of cases that are not completely revealed, yet are still alluded to either by Stack, or someone during an interview (an investigator), or even an update, yet we are not privy to everything.

I thought it might be interesting to compile a list of such vague clues as well as speculation as to what this information might be, and why it was withheld in the first place.

- The new evidence unearthed by the show that led to Tim McClure's arrest for the murder of his mother.

- The contents of the "Spot in the Road" letter and how they pertained to Tommy Gibson's disappearance.

- The new evidence that led to Steve Shores' exoneration for Garrison Hester's murder.

- The details of the torture done to Jay Cook that indicated to authorities that the killer was probably an ex-con.

My thoughts

- Since McClure was never convicted for the murder of his mother, the new information may have been withheld to protect his privacy. This new information allegedly came to light during a rebroadcast of the show on Lifetime. I think it's reasonable to assume that a viewer who was in or around the area at the time of Terri McClure's death may have seen something that contradicted Tim's alibi or a statement he made on the program.

- I believe Meg once theorized that "Spot on the Road" could have been a neighbor of the Gibsons and given their unique vantage point, may have seen something that would have proved crucial to the investigation (this would fit with the author's unique pseudonym). The letter could also have been written by a family member who heard a statement made by the Gibsons.

- No clue on Shores. The update was on Spike so they just might not have cared to look into the circumstances too deeply.

- Prisoners have limited access to basic utensils and items that could potentially be turned into weapons. Perhaps the torture was done crudely with a common object. The info was probably withheld to weed out false confessions or red herrings should a viable suspect turn up at some point.

Any thoughts?

[SageSlowdive]

I find it interesting that UM disclosed Dick Hansen was an addicted drug user...

[MegtheEgg86]

Throughout the history of the show, there are certain aspects of cases that are not completely revealed, yet are still alluded to either by Stack, or someone during an interview (an investigator), or even an update, yet we are not privy to everything.

I thought it might be interesting to compile a list of such vague clues as well as speculation as to what this information might be, and why it was withheld in the first place.

Great thread topic. I'm excited to see what responses we all come up with.

The contents of the "Spot in the Road" letter and how they pertained to Tommy Gibson's disappearance.

- The details of the torture done to Jay Cook that indicated to authorities that the killer was probably an ex-con.

Those two were the very first things that popped into my head when I saw the thread title.



- I would like to know much more about the briefly mentioned suspect in the Rebecca Young case. Virtually all we know about the man was that he was overheard bragging that he'd "killed a black woman." I know the police must have better reason than that to believe he may have been responsible for her murder.

- What exactly was found in "Loren's" apartment that may implicate him in the murders of Marie Lillienburg and Maria Wahlen.

- This may not fit neatly into this category as it wasn't a piece of verbally stated information, but I've always wondered why the male suspect composite in the Roxann Jeeves/Kristopher Korper case was drawn with a hand in front of his mouth.

- Possibly completely unrelated to the case as a whole, but A) why was Kaitlyn Arquette's boyfriend's name never revealed (he was called "Kaitlyn's boyfriend" through the entire segment), and B) for what reason were his friends constantly "making fun of her"?

[MegtheEgg86]

Also: what about Holly Krewson's skeletal remains led investigators to believe she was murdered, and why won't they release that information? It seems many people with the most basic knowledge of forensic examination know that certain breakages or nicks in the bones can indicate the manner of death--isn't that a rather common fact?

[soilentgreen]

What information did the police have that led them to believe that the two Mary Morris murders weren't connected? They also (sensibly) held back the second Mary Morris' 911 call.

UM refrained from mentioning what chemical Joseph Maloney poisoned his wife with. My guess being that it was thallium sulfate or something similar that would have been in a chemistry lab set of that era.

Rae Ann Mossor's boyfriend was never mentioned by name, nor was there any mention if he or or the witnesses were contacted by UM.

As far as Deborah Poe, UM made no mention of her boyfriend (who apparently saw her at 1 am, and a different friend was the last person to see her). Interesting, as he seems to be the person police are now focusing on.

[RobinW]

In the Loretta Myers disappearance, I found it bizarre that they provided zero information about the con artist "husband" that disappeared with her. Loretta's son interacted with him several times and even though he probably didn't reveal his real name, I'd think he would have at least provided a first name. And even though I'm sure no photograph of him existed, I have no idea why UM didn't provide a composite sketch or a physical description.

I understand that for legal reasons, UM can't always provide information about suspects, but this guy was a missing person who was clearly taking advantage of a confused old woman and could potentially endanger her life. If they provide a description of him, it only increases their chances of finding her. Thankfully, Loretta was eventually found unharmed, but we never did find out anything about this guy.

Likewise, in the disappearance of Lisa Bishop and the Freedom, I found it weird that they briefly mentioned that the Haitian crew of the boat were also missing, but didn't provide ANY info about them. They may not have been the main focus on the story, but they're still human beings, and even if they were directly responsible for Lisa's disappearance, finding them only increases the chances of finding her.

[xxxxmattxxxx69]

UM never revealed that Angelo Desideri was a drug dealer before he was killed.

[XCalibur]

In the Loretta Myers disappearance, I found it bizarre that they provided zero information about the con artist "husband" that disappeared with her. Loretta's son interacted with him several times and even though he probably didn't reveal his real name, I'd think he would have at least provided a first name. And even though I'm sure no photograph of him existed, I have no idea why UM didn't provide a composite sketch or a physical description.

I understand that for legal reasons, UM can't always provide information about suspects, but this guy was a missing person who was clearly taking advantage of a confused old woman and could potentially endanger her life. If they provide a description of him, it only increases their chances of finding her. Thankfully, Loretta was eventually found unharmed, but we never did find out anything about this guy.

Likewise, in the disappearance of Lisa Bishop and the Freedom, I found it weird that they briefly mentioned that the Haitian crew of the boat were also missing, but didn't provide ANY info about them. They may not have been the main focus on the story, but they're still human beings, and even if they were directly responsible for Lisa's disappearance, finding them only increases the chances of finding her.

Kind of like the kid who dissapeared along with Clifford Sherwood.

[XCalibur]

UM never revealed that Angelo Desideri was a drug dealer before he was killed.

Dam! I don't even remember that from the update!

But it makes sense, otherwise why would hoods like Joe Kello and James Majors be interested in killing him?

You are right though, the broadcast portrayed him as an unassuming old Christian man who never did anything to anyone. Surprising to learn he was a drug dealer.

[WishfulDreamer]

I was unaware of this. May I ask where you got this information from? It's very interesting and if true it definitely sheds some light into motive. The broadcast made it sound like they targeted him randomly.

[RobinW]

Kind of like the kid who dissapeared along with Clifford Sherwood.

Also, the unsolved murder of the kid named Eugene which was briefly mentioned at the end of the Kurt Sova segment. And the other boy who was burned in the shack with Scott Johnson who never even had his name mentioned on the broadcast (though I'm guessing UM just couldn't secure permission from the boy's family).

[crystaldawn]

Interesting topic. I too have always wondered about the letter from "spot in the road" in the Tommy Gibson case. I would also like to read the entire contents of the letter of Tom Roche's killer to see if it divulged any more information.

Some others I would add are:

I wish UM would have been more forthcoming in the Mikki Jo West segment. I understand why they couldn't have mentioned the killer's name as it appeared in the letters but they could have told us the man whose name appeared in the letters just happened to be the suspect they mentioned and it was his marital dispute that Mikki was in the middle of.

The letter written by Keith Reinhard to his wife shortly before he disappeared should have been mentioned. It seem to indicate that he was ready to conquer his fear and try and climb the mountain again but it seems that UM just wanted to slant the story to make it seem like something more sinister happened.

I think if UM had mentioned all the accusations of the shady dealings with Tammy that her mother was involved in it would have given more credence to the possibility of her running away. I'm really starting to lean towards that with everything I've learned.

They should have portrayed Ed Walters (Gulf Breeze UFO's) like the nutjob he really was instead of giving him the attention he so much wanted.

I would have liked them to mention more about the gun used in Rae Ann Mossor's death, most importantly who it belonged to.

They should have mentioned a possible connection in the Charlie Anderson murder and the murder of Carol Montecalvo since UM profiled both cases.

I think they left a lot out in the Leonard Dirickson case we've still yet to find out. His case just doesn't add up.

I'm currently reading the book about Danny Paquette's murder and there is A LOT in his case UM left out. They portray him in a positive light whereas the book doesn't at all. Basically say he was a child molester that raped his stepdaughter and many people who knew who killed him and kept it quiet for years thought he got what he deserved. This is completely different from how UM portrayed him. Also while I'm on the topic, they do talk about Rena Paquette's murder and there's little doubt that she was murdered by the same man who killed those two young girls. His mother had confided to Rena that she thought he did it (seemingly wanting Rena to go to the authorities because she couldn't bring herself to) so Rena did go to the cops and she had an argument with Edward Coolidge shortly before she was found burned to death in a pigsty on her property that Coolidge is thought to have killed one of the girls at. They only bothered to try him for one of the murders and I believe there was a problem with something in his case and he was released from prison 5 years ago. Another fact that UM didn't mention is that semen was found in Rena Paquette but police didn't bother testing it or even asking her husband about it.

Two more things that weren't really relative to the cases but I think would have given even more sympathy to the victims that UM didn't mention was that Angela Hammond was pregnant and Gretchen Burford was a newlywed when she was murdered.

Just to clarify some of the earlier posts, I don't believe UM ever mentioned Dick Hansen's drug use or that Angelo Desidari was a drug dealer. I think those are things people learned in their internet searches and articles on the cases.

[SageSlowdive]

Someone mentioned in a newspaper article on the case, Dick was addicted to some sort of drug (I'm guessing something hard like cocaine or crack), and he could have possibly known his killer.

[Charli-Ann]

I think if UM had mentioned all the accusations of the shady dealings with Tammy that her mother was involved in it would have given more credence to the possibility of her running away. I'm really starting to lean towards that with everything I've learned.



Crystaldawn,
Just curious, is this the Tammi Lynn Leppert case that you're referring to here?

Thanks,
Charli-Ann

[crystaldawn]

Crystaldawn,
Just curious, is this the Tammi Lynn Leppert case that you're referring to here?

Thanks,
Charli-Ann

Yes, thats the one.

[Steve W.]

"Also, the unsolved murder of the kid named Eugene which was briefly mentioned at the end of the Kurt Sova segment."

I've heard two theories about Eugene Kvett's death: 1. he fell into the ravine 2. some Cleveland/Newburgh Heights-area gang that was running around at the time might have pushed or threw him into the ravine.

[RobinW]

Another fact that UM didn't mention is that semen was found in Rena Paquette but police didn't bother testing it or even asking her husband about it. .

Wow, that means this is definitely another case that could be added to the "Worst Police Blunders" thread. I've always wondered how the police could have possibly thought that she committed suicide by setting herself on a fire in a barn that was a mile from her house.

Two more things that weren't really relative to the cases but I think would have given even more sympathy to the victims that UM didn't mention was that Angela Hammond was pregnant and Gretchen Burford was a newlywed when she was murdered.

Just to clarify some of the earlier posts, I don't believe UM ever mentioned Dick Hansen's drug use or that Angelo Desidari was a drug dealer. I think those are things people learned in their internet searches and articles on the cases.

I'm not sure UM left out more details about a victim to make them seem more sympathetic than with Judge Leland Geiler, who was bilked out of nearly everything he owned by Andolina Gonzalez. Judge Geiler had quite a tumultous history and was actually impeached as a Superior Court judge for many cases of sexual misconduct:
http://cjp.ca.gov/userfiles/file/Notice_FP/Geiler_1-21-72.pdf

Now, of course, his shady history had nothing to do with the UM case and he certainly didn't deserve what happened to him, but I'm sure there are quite a few people who aren't too sorry that Judge Geiler met with this fate.

[Kane]

Another fact that UM didn't mention is that semen was found in Rena Paquette but police didn't bother testing it or even asking her husband about it.

Unless I missed something, that's probably because it was either previously withheld from the press or wasn't discovered until Rena's body was exhumed in 1991, after the original 1990 broadcast of the segment.

[justins5256]

Some good contributions from everyone.

Just thought of another factoid omitted by UM, but for obvious reasons - the chemical concoction used by a professional arsonist in a series of fires in the Pacific Northwest. The specific combination of chemicals caused the fires to burn hotter, spread faster, and be resistant to water. Stack mentioned that investigators discovered the contents of the mixture after conducting numerous experiments, but were keeping it a secret.

The presentation of the Angelo Desidari case was strange. In retrospect, I wonder just how much the police knew about Angelo's dealings at the time of the original broadcast that they withheld. Even the update on the arrest of James Majors and Joe Callo for Angelo's murder was extremely vague with regard to the motive. IIRC, it was speculated that these men planned to rob Angelo because it was rumored he had a lot of cash and jewelry. Uh-huh.

I'm pretty sure that it was disclosed that the letters discovered pertaining to Mikki Jo West's murder did name the man who was already a suspect. I watched the story semi-recently, but it was a tape of the original broadcast, so maybe Lifetime cut it.

[RobinW]

Okay, I'm not sure if this is a case of UM withholding information or a suspect just being full of crap, but did Jule Caylor ever provide an explanation to the police about where Dottie was going on that train and what the purpose of her trip was?

You'd think that if he was going to drive his agoraphobic reclusive wife to the station to go on a trip by herself for the first time in ages, he'd at least find out from her where she was going. Even if he never drove her there and was responsible for her disappearance, you'd think that Jule would at least provided some false information about where she was going in order to lend plausibility to his story.

I've always wondered if UM deliberately withheld the full details of her so-called trip in order not to hamper the investigation.

[MegtheEgg86]

I'm pretty sure that it was disclosed that the letters discovered pertaining to Mikki Jo West's murder did name the man who was already a suspect. I watched the story semi-recently, but it was a tape of the original broadcast, so maybe Lifetime cut it.

It was. I have the Lifetime version as well as the update, and it was all definitely disclosed there.

[Kane]

Just thought of another factoid omitted by UM, but for obvious reasons - the chemical concoction used by a professional arsonist in a series of fires in the Pacific Northwest. The specific combination of chemicals caused the fires to burn hotter, spread faster, and be resistant to water. Stack mentioned that investigators discovered the contents of the mixture after conducting numerous experiments, but were keeping it a secret.

Obviously, they didn't want to give potential arsonists any ideas.

The presentation of the Angelo Desidari case was strange. In retrospect, I wonder just how much the police knew about Angelo's dealings at the time of the original broadcast that they withheld. Even the update on the arrest of James Majors and Joe Callo for Angelo's murder was extremely vague with regard to the motive. IIRC, it was speculated that these men planned to rob Angelo because it was rumored he had a lot of cash and jewelry. Uh-huh.

The cops might have known or suspected that Angelo was involved in drugs, but lacked the evidence to justify publicly releasing that information. But there may have been another factor: It is entirely possible that there was some legitimate concern - especially among those close to Angelo - that any mention of Angelo's possible drug connections would make the viewers think so negatively of him that they would become apathetic about his well-being and/or whereabouts.

I could be wrong about that, but it's worth considering.

[WishfulDreamer]

The cops might have known or suspected that Angelo was involved in drugs, but lacked the evidence to justify publicly releasing that information. But there may have been another factor: It is entirely possible that there was some legitimate concern - especially among those close to Angelo - that any mention of Angelo's possible drug connections would make the viewers think so negatively of him that they would become apathetic about his well-being and/or whereabouts.

I could be wrong about that, but it's worth considering.

I think you've probably hit the nail on the head. The family wanted to know what had happened to him and probably thought that drugs would cause viewers not to worry about him as much as mention of his piousness and seemingly exemplary career- this could have certainly impeded viewer tips and aid.

[StackTime]

Whatever it is leading police to believe that Wil Hendrick was murdered, despite not being able to determine a cause of death...and also what leads them to believe that he knew the attacker

[truthbtold]

Just watched the Mary Morris segment where 2 women named Mary Morris who live in the same area and look similar are murdered within 3 days. Curious about them withholding the 911 recording. Most police don't use the "it's too disturbing" excuse to withhold the recording of a 911 tape. Especially if it could help solve a case.

[TheCars1986]

Just watched the Mary Morris segment where 2 women named Mary Morris who live in the same area and look similar are murdered within 3 days. Curious about them withholding the 911 recording. Most police don't use the "it's too disturbing" excuse to withhold the recording of a 911 tape. Especially if it could help solve a case.

I think they withheld the tape because she potentially named names and being an ongoing investigation, the police didn't want to hinder the investigation. As for information that was withheld by UM, I wish there were more details disclosed about the deaths of Diana Robertson, Stephen Harkins, and Ruth Cooper (and potential links to Mike Riemer). And the segment about the Freedon when they blatantly ignore the fate of the entire crew besides Florian and Lisa. And I can't remember the name of the child who was killed (I think it was Scott), but it happened in Arizona and he and a friend were murdered in an abandoned copper shack by being burned to death. UM never mentioned anything about his friend. Also, in just about every missing persons/murder segment, UM never presents the darker side to the missing/murdered people (Dick Hansen's drug problem, Angelo Desidari being a drug dealer, Pamela June Ray spending money that wasn't hers, etc.) which could potentially help solve their murder/disappearance.

[WishfulDreamer]

Just read an article about Pond and Gaddis (the last UM case). I know it was solved quickly, but to be honest, it should have been solved even faster than it was, with the suspect having been a suspect in the beginning and having already attempted to attack one of the girls. UM withheld this and his suspicious behavior as well as the pain endured by one of the girls in the past. The killer's prior behavior should have had them know from the beginning, espcially with both girls being connected to him already. I'm glad the sick bastard is in jail for life. The case was too short in its profile on UM in my opinion and more should have been presented.

Here is an article I found about it. Very tragic case.

On a stormy winter morning, Ashley Pond, 12, a seventh-grader at Gardiner Middle School, left her South Beavercreek Road apartment complex in Oregon City, OR about 8 a.m. on Jan. 9, 2002, for the school bus stop. Ashley did not make it to school.

It had been a rough year for Ashley and she carried around more pain in her short life than any child should. On January 5, 2001, just over a year before Ashley disappeared, her biological father, Wesley Roettger, Jr., was indicted on 40 counts of raping and sexually abusing her for over 4 years. The following March, Ashley told a friend that two men were molesting her. That same spring, Ashley's reading teacher, Linda Virden, at Gaffney Lane Elementary School, reported to the principal, Chris Mills, that Ward Weaver, 39, kissed Ashley on the lips when he dropped her off at school. Then in June and July Ashley joined Ward, his girlfriend, Tammy Place, her 8-year-old daughter, and Mallori, Weaver's 10-year-old daughter, on a two-week vacation to California. Then Ashley began living at their home. In early August: Ashley accused Ward of molesting her and moved out. Ashley told her reading teacher that Ward threatened to testify against her in her father's rape trial.

After learning of Ashley's allegations against Ward, Clackamas County deputy district attorney Chris Owen reported the child abuse to a hotline on August. 31st. The hotline report was forwarded to child welfare workers on Sept. 5th. Virden also called the child welfare office to report that Ashley told her that Ward abused her, tried to rape her, and threatened to testify against her. September 6, deputy district attorney, Owen, dropped all 40 counts against Roettger, who plead “no contest” to attempted unlawful sexual penetration. He was sentenced to 120 months probation.

Things seemed to be improving for Ashley that fall. During October and November, she seemed happier and more outgoing. However, a caseworker told police that child welfare received many calls about her and her family from concerned neighbors. That Christmas Ashley told her family she was afraid of Ward.

On January 9 2002, Ashley disappeared.

Police interviewed Weaver and his daughter, Mallori, the following day.

"Ward Weaver said he felt sorry for Ashley and tried to help her as much as he could, but then she accused him of touching her, and that was it," Viola Valenzuela-Garcia, Oregon City Detective reported.

Clackamas County sheriff's deputy Marty Neiman, a dog handler, searched the property around Ward Weaver's house; on Jan. 19th with a search dog, but Ward refused to allow them to search inside his home.

Two months after Ashley's disappearance, on March 8, 2002, 13-year-old Miranda Diane Gaddis, an eighth grader, another friend of Mallori's, disappeared after she left her apartment at 8 a.m. on her way to the school bus stop, sparking a nationwide FBI search. Massive searches turned up no clues.

Ashley and Miranda had attended the same school, rode the same bus, and were in the same dance class. Recently, on February 23rd, Miranda spent the night at the Weaver home for Mallori's, birthday.

Investigators were focusing on Weaver, who lived in a cheap rental home by the school bus stop where both girls were last seen. He seemed to be basking in the limelight. He invited television crews into his home to declare his innocence, and gave interviews on top of a concrete slab in his back yard.

On March 15th Harry Oakes, a private citizen, and his search dog, with permission from Lori Pond, offered to search the surrounding area. He was told by Weaver to “stay away from freshly laid concrete” because he doesn't “want it messed up.” The dog gave a positive “death alert” behind the house.

Ward Weaver was arrested August. 13, 2002, at 5:30 p.m. in Clackamas, after his son's 19-year-old girlfriend ran off naked screaming that he tried to rape her. Francis told emergency dispatchers that his father admitted killing Ashley and Miranda.

While in custody, for attempted rape, a grand jury indicted Weaver of aggravated murder charges. FBI investigators secured his back yard with a chain-link fence.

Between August 24 and 25 2002, searchers found Ashley under the concrete slab in a barrel, and Miranda in a box in tool shed both on Weaver's property.
Weaver was charged with aggravated murder in the deaths.

Corvallis lawyers, Michael Barker and Peter Fahy Weaver's court-appointed attorneys asked to be removed from the case for unknown reasons, but ended up staying on.

Initially the defense claimed Weaver was mentally unfit to stand trial but after an evaluation at the Oregon State Hospital they informed Judge Herndon he had regained the capacity to assist in his defense.

Defense requested a change of venue claiming the media attention in the case tainted the jury pool, and was a detriment to a fair trial. Judge Herndon agreed with prosecutions arguments that Weaver intentionally sought out media attention and turned the investigation into a media circus. After Weaver gave numerous interviews to the media, Judge Herndon had issued a gag order.

While in jail, Weaver wrote letters to Mallori. In September he wrote, "You and me against the world," 2002. After being denied visits with his daughter in January 2004, Ward wrote a suicide note:

"I have spent this whole week trying to figure out how to make the pain (of my heart + soul not coming to see me) stop. I can only think of one thing. Cut my heart out and cut (off) the parts that hurt. She is my whole heart.”

Jan. 11, 2004, Weaver was treated for razor wounds at Willamette Falls Hospital and released back to jail.

To avoid the death penalty, on September 2004, Weaver, 41, plead guilty to 17 counts, of rape, sex abuse, abuse of a corpse and killing Ashley and Miranda. He was sentenced to two life sentences without parole.

Weaver's father, Ward Francis Weaver Jr., is on death row in California for raping, murdering, and burying a woman's body below concrete in his back yard. She was found in 1982.

[Thiussat]

The Circleville Letters (my fav of all time). The whole segment was done in a way as not to defame anyone's character and it's clear UM left out a ton of details for that reason. Plus most of the people involved would not appear on camera.

[Zlatko]

In the Kevin Ives and Don Henry case, UM mentioned two boys were killed in a similar fashion in Oklahoma. I wish they had provided more details to the case since there may have been a connection.

[Thiussat]

In the Kevin Ives and Don Henry case, UM mentioned two boys were killed in a similar fashion in Oklahoma. I wish they had provided more details to the case since there may have been a connection.

YES! I have always wanted to know more about that case. They said the two boys in Oklahoma were also laid out on the train tracks (which has to be an unusual way to die). I have googled to no avail. I even checked the maps of train tracks in that part of the U.S. and the two locations are not too far apart.

[idol]

Obviously, they didn't want to give potential arsonists any ideas.



The cops might have known or suspected that Angelo was involved in drugs, but lacked the evidence to justify publicly releasing that information. But there may have been another factor: It is entirely possible that there was some legitimate concern - especially among those close to Angelo - that any mention of Angelo's possible drug connections would make the viewers think so negatively of him that they would become apathetic about his well-being and/or whereabouts.

I could be wrong about that, but it's worth considering.

Any details on how big Angelo's drug dealing was or what kind of drugs he was involved with?

[Hambone2421]

Anything involving the Mary Morris case. It seems like everything was withheld in that case.

[2trackmind]

Hard to say if this information was "intentionally" withheld, but UM never mentioned whose gun was found in Tommy Burkett's hand. Even the website his parents had made no mention of whose gun it was.

[justins5256]

Hard to say if this information was "intentionally" withheld, but UM never mentioned whose gun was found in Tommy Burkett's hand. Even the website his parents had made no mention of whose gun it was.

This is typical of most of the "was it suicide or murder" segments involving firearms. It's the same deal with Rae Ann Mossor, Danny Williams, Tony Lombardi, Jeffrey Digmn, et al. We know they were shot, and the gun found close by or in their hand, but we aren't even implicitly told who the gun's legal owner is.

My best guess is that in those situations, the guns in question belonged to the deceased or to the family. This fact was withheld on UM because it makes the murder theories seem so much more questionable. How would someone kill you with your own gun? It's not impossible, but requires more creative theorizing when the simple explanation/solution is that the questionable death was in fact a suicide or an accident the instrument of which was a gun the person owned or had knowledge of. If that is all too hypothetical, look at it this way - if the gun was proven to belong to someone else, proven to be stolen, or was of otherwise unknown origin, surely this fact would have been mentioned on UM, as it makes the death seem suspicious.

The only obvious exception I can think of here is Norman Ladner. However, in Norman's case, there was some doubt as to whether his gun could have fired the bullet that killed him.

[88keys]

- Possibly completely unrelated to the case as a whole, but A) why was Kaitlyn Arquette's boyfriend's name never revealed (he was called "Kaitlyn's boyfriend" through the entire segment), and B) for what reason were his friends constantly "making fun of her"?

Old post, but I can answer this. Kait's boyfriend's name was Dung Nguyen. I'm not sure why they didn't name him though it may just be because that is a very common name in the Vietnamese population. I was a huge Lois Duncan fan growing up, so I've followed this case for years. Dung's friends were involved in car wreck insurance scams and possibly in drug dealing. I'm guessing that, if they were making fun of Kait, it was because she wouldn't go along with those activities. I'm pretty sure that Kait "wore the pants" in that relationship as well, and Dung's friends may have looked down on her and on Dung for that.

[xxxxmattxxxx69]

UM never revealed any of the contents found in Brad Bishop's car when he abandoned it.

[WishfulDreamer]

1) What happened when Max Carson was confronted by a woman who knew about his past and how she managed not to get attacked.

2) The 2 (same named victims case we are not allowed to discuss) and the situation behind the unreleased 911 call. Seriously, had the attack already happened, was it during the attack, before, etc. Agreed Hambone.

[daltonbuck]

I find it interesting that UM disclosed Dick Hansen was an addicted drug user...


i dont recall hearing that in the episode. did i miss it?

[UMFaninMD]

The New Hampshire Serial Killer---It's difficult to say if this was deliberately held because UM may have not known about it, but the baby daughter of Jane Boroski, the surviving victim, suffered from mild cerebral palsy that might have been a result of her mother's attack. Also, several of the victims---Eva Morse, Bernice Coutermarche and Ellen Fried, were all tied together by their occupations. Bernice was a nurse's aide and Ellen and Eva were nurses.

The I-70 Killer---it's not that major but on other reports about the killings, the authorities believe the sole male victim was killed because at the time, he had long hair and the killer may have mistaken him for a woman.

Doreen Picard/Susan Laferte---The daughter of Douglas Heath was the first one to discover Susan's daughter Nicole alone in the hallway locked out of the apartment and also found the bodies along with her dad. It's not clear why UM didn't have her appear on camera, but she was 15 at the time and maybe her father, who did appear, didn't want her to. UM casually mentioned the murder weapon, a pipe, wasn't discovered for three days. What they didn't say was that police were actually looking for a gun because they thought the two had been shot, not beaten. There are so many details left out of the segment that were later revealed after Raymond Tempest was arrested because of possible police corruption. I wonder if UM was onto something in the first place?

[Lakeboy]

Also, the unsolved murder of the kid named Eugene which was briefly mentioned at the end of the Kurt Sova segment. And the other boy who was burned in the shack with Scott Johnson who never even had his name mentioned on the broadcast (though I'm guessing UM just couldn't secure permission from the boy's family).


I thought that was odd also. It seems like the other boys parents would have wanted to release his name to help solve the case.

[Lakeboy]

I never knew Angela Hammond was pregnant until I started reading this message board. I wonder why that was never mentioned in the story.

[asmitty]

I thought that was odd also. It seems like the other boys parents would have wanted to release his name to help solve the case.


My guess on this would be that the other boy's family believed the accidental death scenario and felt the case was already solved.

[dynoguy88]

The New Hampshire Serial Killer---It's difficult to say if this was deliberately held because UM may have not known about it, but the baby daughter of Jane Boroski, the surviving victim, suffered from mild cerebral palsy that might have been a result of her mother's attack. Also, several of the victims---Eva Morse, Bernice Coutermarche and Ellen Fried, were all tied together by their occupations. Bernice was a nurse's aide and Ellen and Eva were nurses.

Keep in mind that the segment was filmed about a year or two after Jane's attack and it's possible that they didn't know yet about her baby's mild form of cerebal palsy because she was barely a toddler at the time.

Also, Eva Morse had, at one time, worked as a nurse's aid but not for several years. She was a factory worker at the time of her murder. But the segment didn't go into detail about the other victims anyway.

The whole nurse thing I think was a coincidence. All the victims were just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Bernice Coutermarche and Eva Morse were hitchhiking when they were killed. Ellen Fried and eventually Barbara Agnew (who was also a nurse) were kidnapped late at night within close distance of their own cars.

This guy was a thrill killer. I don't think he put any thought into the kind of occupation his victims would have. As long as they were within his sight and there was no witnesses, he would strike. And he would kill in the same way (10-20 stab wounds with the main damange coming to the neck). Kathy Millican, Elizabeth Critchley and Linda Moore were not nurses but also suffered the same pattern of stab wounds.

[idol]

In the Gary Grant Jr case. UM never mentioned that Boos older brother was arrested on robbery charges days before the killing.

[TheCars1986]

I wish UM would have shown the actual security tapes in the Dale Kerstetter and Matt Flores segments.

[Hambone2421]

I wish UM would have shown the actual security tapes in the Dale Kerstetter and Matt Flores segments.

I agree. There's really no reason not to show them unless it showed some gruesome images which there has been nothing to suggest either of them did.

[Kane]

I agree. There's really no reason not to show them unless it showed some gruesome images which there has been nothing to suggest either of them did.

Or unless the footage contained details that the authorities wanted to keep from the public in case a suspect materialized, at which point it would be possible for the suspect to slip up by hinting a knowledge of such information.

[Hambone2421]

Or unless the footage contained details that the authorities wanted to keep from the public in case a suspect materialized, at which point it would be possible for the suspect to slip up by hinting a knowledge of such information.

True but how long do you wait for that to happen without releasing the full videos in case someone may have information about that extra footage?

[justins5256]

Regarding the Kerstetter and Flores footage - could it be that since the footage pertained to possibly sensitive locations - in the case of Kerstetter's especially, since the plant contained platinum - that the footage wasn't released for security reasons, possibly so outsiders wouldn't have an idea as to the actual layout of either location.

[Kane]

Regarding the Kerstetter and Flores footage - could it be that since the footage pertained to possibly sensitive locations - in the case of Kerstetter's especially, since the plant contained platinum - that the footage wasn't released for security reasons, possibly so outsiders wouldn't have an idea as to the actual layout of either location.

I was actually thinking of that, too. It is legitimately possible that security concerns were a factor in each case.

[Hambone2421]

Regarding the Kerstetter and Flores footage - could it be that since the footage pertained to possibly sensitive locations - in the case of Kerstetter's especially, since the plant contained platinum - that the footage wasn't released for security reasons, possibly so outsiders wouldn't have an idea as to the actual layout of either location.

Very good point. I hadn't thought of that.

[idol]

During one the live shows (one that aired just before Thanksgiving, cant recall the year, the one that aired the Tracy Davis case where she kidnapped her grandson) one of the two ladies that were providing live updates mentioned that UM usually withheld a couple of facts about each case they profiled because if a call came in with that information that they withheld they knew the tip was legit and a good lead.

[TheCars1986]

During one the live shows (one that aired just before Thanksgiving, cant recall the year, the one that aired the Tracy Davis case where she kidnapped her grandson) one of the two ladies that were providing live updates mentioned that UM usually withheld a couple of facts about each case they profiled because if a call came in with that information that they withheld they knew the tip was legit and a good lead.

I figured to get LE to cooperate UM would withold certain information, basically to not hinder an ongoing investigation. But after all of these years, what can IMHO it could only help these cold cases, not hurt them.

[Hambone2421]

I figured to get LE to cooperate UM would withold certain information, basically to not hinder an ongoing investigation. But after all of these years, what can IMHO it could only help these cold cases, not hurt them.

I agree. I understand withholding certain information but after so long, it wont hurt to release that information.

[Kane]

During one the live shows (one that aired just before Thanksgiving, cant recall the year, the one that aired the Tracy Davis case where she kidnapped her grandson) one of the two ladies that were providing live updates mentioned that UM usually withheld a couple of facts about each case they profiled because if a call came in with that information that they withheld they knew the tip was legit and a good lead.

America's Most Wanted has done that, too (as AMW host John Walsh acknowledged in his book "No Mercy"). It is definitely a matter of determining the legitimacy of any prospective tips they eventually receive.

[Jon]

In the UM segment about Donna Brown (who abandoned her children to help killer Michael Wayne Brown escape from prison, and start a new life with him) Stack says that she had two previous husbands who were both murdered. Did anyone else think it was odd that they didn't go into any detail about that? ("Well, they were both murdered...not really important...let's talk about something else..."):eek:

[Hambone2421]

In the UM segment about Donna Brown (who abandoned her children to help killer Michael Wayne Brown escape from prison, and start a new life with him) Stack says that she had two previous husbands who were both murdered. Did anyone else think it was odd that they didn't go into any detail about that? ("Well, they were both murdered...not really important...let's talk about something else..."):eek:

Wow, I didn't even realize that!

[xxxxmattxxxx69]

Old thread but UM never revealed how Steve Wilson killed Bill Thornburgh

[crystaldawn]

Old thread but UM never revealed how Steve Wilson killed Bill Thornburgh

That is surprising they wouldn't reveal something that basic. I have a book that talks a little about the case. If you're wondering he died from a single bullet in the back of his head.

[xxxxmattxxxx69]

That is surprising they wouldn't reveal something that basic. I have a book that talks a little about the case. If you're wondering he died from a single bullet in the back of his head.


That case was a strange one to me. I hated the part where Callie grabs the gun in the reenactment because shooting Wilson with a shotgun would probably kill him. The only part UM revealed about the murder was that Bill disappeared early in the morning and left his drink on top of his truck and Wilson disappeared too and then a teen boy found a human skull IDed as Bill Thornburgh

[WishfulDreamer]

The note in the Keith Warren case clearly mentions that someone else will be targeted next, but only one name is shown. I could only make out an "L" for the next name, nothing else.

More about certain lifestyles of missing persons/victims, such as Amy Billig.

More information means more clues!

[Dazinho]

Some great contributions as always...

Henry and Ives is a good example of this that others have mentioned - the basis on which LE concluded suicide would be worth hearing, especially since many suspected foul play.

Although I understand why they didn't include it, the identity of the kids (and parents of) who were alleged to be bullying Tommy Burkett would have cast that case in a very different light.

That Cindy James confronted her ex re:- if he was the man who was tormenting her. Saw that somewhere else and concluded that she wanted him to be the prime suspect, ergo it's likely at least some of her 'nightmare' was self-created (I forget if the UM segment included the 'Cindy Dead Meat Soon' voicemail, but that clearly sounded like a woman pretending to be a man!!).

There's three of the top of my head...

[Kane]

The note in the Keith Warren case clearly mentions that someone else will be targeted next, but only one name is shown. I could only make out an "L" for the next name, nothing else.

More than likely, that person's name was concealed for security reasons. The unidentified individual was probably well aware that his life was in danger, so he may have asked that the show not reveal his name.

More about certain lifestyles of missing persons/victims, such as Amy Billig.

More information means more clues!

True, but there may have been a good reason why certain details about a victim, missing person, or case in general are not discussed on the show. In some cases, it might be because of a legitimate concern that certain revelations about the person would paint him/her in such a negative light that it would do more to hinder the case than help it. Therefore, sometimes certain things may be excluded from mention at the request of the family of the victim/missing person.

Of course, there is also the matter of detectives keeping a few details about a case from the press in the hopes that someone will slip up by acknowledging such information, at which point they would have a legitimate suspect.

Occasionally, a relevant detail may not be mentioned for the simple reason that it had not come to light until after UM had already profiled the case.

[WishfulDreamer]

More than likely, that person's name was concealed for security reasons. The unidentified individual was probably well aware that his life was in danger, so he may have asked that the show not reveal his name.



True, but there may have been a good reason why certain details about a victim, missing person, or case in general are not discussed on the show. In some cases, it might be because of a legitimate concern that certain revelations about the person would paint him/her in such a negative light that it would do more to hinder the case than help it. Therefore, sometimes certain things may be excluded from mention at the request of the family of the victim/missing person.

Of course, there is also the matter of detectives keeping a few details about a case from the press in the hopes that someone will slip up by acknowledging such information, at which point they would have a legitimate suspect.

Occasionally, a relevant detail may not be mentioned for the simple reason that it had not come to light until after UM had already profiled the case.

Oh, I understand Kane. It just fascinates me is all. I'd like to know the info, but respect that releasing it could cause problems.

Before coming on this forum, I was in the dark about so many of these cases, only seeing them from UM angles.

[unsolved88]

Although I did not see the segment itself (but would love to) and only read about it on here, Justin5256 said that in the Marlena Childress segment, her grandfather randomly mentions that he believes that "a waitress" kidnapped Marlena, but neither he nor the segment elaborates on that theory.

Who was this waitress and why would Marlena's grandfather ever think that this woman (whoever she may be) would be responsible for his grandchild's disappearance? I doubt it's true and the more I've read, the more convinced I am that Marlena's mother Pamela Bailey was responsible, but the comment about the waitress just seems so weird. Clearly he had a specific "waitress" in mind who he thought kidnapped Marlena.

[TracyLynnS]

Although I did not see the segment itself (but would love to) and only read about it on here, Justin5256 said that in the Marlena Childress segment, her grandfather randomly mentions that he believes that "a waitress" kidnapped Marlena, but neither he nor the segment elaborates on that theory.

Who was this waitress and why would Marlena's grandfather ever think that this woman (whoever she may be) would be responsible for his grandchild's disappearance? I doubt it's true and the more I've read, the more convinced I am that Marlena's mother Pamela Bailey was responsible, but the comment about the waitress just seems so weird. Clearly he had a specific "waitress" in mind who he thought kidnapped Marlena.

I don't remember this case, but Marlena's Charley Project page really makes it sound like her mother is involved. Those two completely different confessions, one stating she sold the girl to pay off a drug debt and the other saying she killed her and placed her body in the river, are hard to excuse as innocent (or even drug induced) ramblings.

If the grandfather was trying to say this was a kidnapping by a waitress, maybe he was in denial, knows what happened but is trying to cover for the child's mother, or is trying to divert police attention away from the mother.

Or if he really seems convinced, maybe the mother gave Marlena to this waitress or someone close to her, and he knows or suspects this is what happened. Also, could the mother have made yet another odd confession, this one to the grandfather, naming the waitress, and he believes it?

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/c/childress_marlena.html

[crystaldawn]

I don't remember this case, but Marlena's Charley Project page really makes it sound like her mother is involved. Those two completely different confessions, one stating she sold the girl to pay off a drug debt and the other saying she killed her and placed her body in the river, are hard to excuse as innocent (or even drug induced) ramblings.

If the grandfather was trying to say this was a kidnapping by a waitress, maybe he was in denial, knows what happened but is trying to cover for the child's mother, or is trying to divert police attention away from the mother.

Or if he really seems convinced, maybe the mother gave Marlena to this waitress or someone close to her, and he knows or suspects this is what happened. Also, could the mother have made yet another odd confession, this one to the grandfather, naming the waitress, and he believes it?

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/c/childress_marlena.html

I do agree that the mother seems involved but I think there's a chance she gave Marlena away or sold her for whatever reason. I do have the UM segment on this and there are two sightings mentioned there that do seem believeable imo. One is two hairdressers that claim two women brought in a girl whom they saw was Marlena to get her hair caught soon after she went missing. They said the two women weren't very nice to her and tried to bribe her to cooperate in getting her hair cut. She even said they referred to her as Marlena. The hairdresser thought nothing of the encounter until she saw Marlena's picture on the front page of the paper after she went missing. Another sighting I believe was a while later and a mother with her two kids at a store said she saw a little girl whom she believed was Marlena at a store. Someone was yelling at her because she had gotten away from whoever brought her there.

Here is an interesting article about sightings of Marlena living with a family after she was reported missing:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=266&dat=19890505&id=a_MrAAAAIBAJ&sjid=Q2oFAAAAIBAJ&pg=2826,700211

[justins5256]

Re: Marlena Childress:

I heard from a very credible source that Marlena's family sought to stop Lifetime from showing the segment. I find that unusual.

When I think of all the grieving parents I've seen on UM over the years, from those whose children were abducted and missing to those whose children had died supposedly by suicide yet there was cause to suspect otherwise, I can't think of a single parent who seemed like they didn't want the exposure.

[unsolved88]

Re: Marlena Childress:

I heard from a very credible source that Marlena's family sought to stop Lifetime from showing the segment. I find that unusual.

When I think of all the grieving parents I've seen on UM over the years, from those whose children were abducted and missing to those whose children had died supposedly by suicide yet there was cause to suspect otherwise, I can't think of a single parent who seemed like they didn't want the exposure.

I think I remember hearing that too. I definitely think it's suspicious. It almost makes you wonder why they even went out of their way to agree to having their case profiled in the first place.