Rocky VI aka Rocky Balboa....

[T-Greg]

What does everyone think of a 60 year old Sylvester Stallone getting back in the ring in an attempt to win back the title? Too far-fetched to be believable? I'll admit, he's in great shape for his age, and the Rocky character will appear to be younger than Stallone's real age (I assume), but is this being taken too far? Maybe one day they'll be a Rocky XV with him in a wheelchair trying to kick butt!

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0479143/

[down2ozz]

its a shame that he is ruining such a great character and movie series. he hurt it enough with rocky V.

[Lamont]

that this one will have a more classy ending and put an end to the saga in style

ROCKY 5 was dreadful

[T-Greg]

that this one will have a more classy ending and put an end to the saga in style

ROCKY 5 was dreadful

I agree. It was pretty bad, but somehow you have to go see it anyway, even if you think it's going to be lame! Last I heard, Tommy Morrison was trying to make a comeback. I think he had been reinstated in Vegas after being banned due to his HIV status a number of years ago.

http://www.tommymorrison.net/

[Anthony33]

I agree. It was pretty bad, but somehow you have to go see it anyway, even if you think it's going to be lame! Last I heard, Tommy Morrison was trying to make a comeback. I think he had been reinstated in Vegas after being banned due to his HIV status a number of years ago.

http://www.tommymorrison.net/

Yeah I remember watching some Morrison fights on HBO. He was strong, but a bit slow and didn't have very good defense, got hit a lot. His biggest win was probably by decision against George Forman and biggest loss was probably when Ray Mercer beat his ass on pay per view.

[Lamont]

Morrison = big, goofy white guy!

:lol: :lol:

[Anthony33]

Morrison = big, goofy white guy!

:lol: :lol:

:lol: Yeah him and Gerry Cooney. If you guys have ever seen the movie The Great White Hype, there's a scene where the guys are watching Morrison get knocked out by Mercer on video.

[Lamont]

we used to call COONEY the great white Dope! :crazy:

[Anthony33]

we used to call COONEY the great white Dope! :crazy:

:lol:

Yeah his career pretty much ended after he got beat down by Larry Holmes. Then losing to Foreman didn't help either.

[T-Greg]

we used to call COONEY the great white Dope! :crazy:

His career was about as illustrious as that of Buster Douglas. I wouldn't be surprised if today he is washing dishes in a restaurant somewhere.:lol:

[Lamont]

At least Douglas
had that one, glorious, spectacular lucky punch!:)

[lilhave]

we used to call COONEY the great white Dope! :crazy:

I go back a long time in boxing and Cooney had one of the great left hooks in the game. When he landed it, the fight was over. Slow and methodical but a wicked puncher. No matter how late in the fight he always had a "punchers chance" Watched him grow in the Golden Gloves from a raw amateur to a top heavyweight. Turned into a alcoholic and that ruined his career. Thought he had a good manager with Rapperport who gave him "tomato cans" at the beginning. Comes from right here in Long Island

Harvey

[lilhave]

To show you how far back in boxing I go, boxing at one time in N.Y., like wrestling was on almost every night of the week. One night from Eastern Parkway arena, one night from Sunnyside Garden, one night from St. Nick's arena, and wednesday was national, brought to you Mennen and announcer Jack Drees. I can remember him saying "your wednesday nights are on the air" The big night was friday fights from Madison Sqaure Garden brought to you by Gillete Blue Blades for the sharpest shave of all. "To be sharp and be on the ball, use Gillete Blue Blades" Jimmy Powers of the Daily News did the reporting. Had the best fighters of the time featured. Bad at the spelling but saw Nino Valdes, Bob Satterfield, Tommy "hurricane" Jackson, Joey Giardello, Robinson, Bobo Olsen etc. My favorite was "Irish" Bob Murphy. Had aout 60 fights won 30 by knockout and lost 30 by knockout. What a glass chin but he could hit. My favorite fights and they were both televised was when Robinson with a perfectly timed left hook knocked out Gene Fullmer. First time fullmer ever went down, and the Archie Moore, Yvon Durelle bout. Can't believe aged Morre, late came back to beat the young, powerful Canadian.

Now my thrills is watching Lamont posting his latest.


Harvey

[Michael Randazzo]

There is some spoof movie out there, when you watch it, there is a poster in the back ground that has an old bald man on it, in a boxing outfit with gloves on and it say's Rocky 39.

That poster might be on to something. God Bless

Michael

[Anthony33]

To show you how far back in boxing I go, boxing at one time in N.Y., like wrestling was on almost every night of the week. One night from Eastern Parkway arena, one night from Sunnyside Garden, one night from St. Nick's arena, and wednesday was national, brought to you Mennen and announcer Jack Drees. I can remember him saying "your wednesday nights are on the air" The big night was friday fights from Madison Sqaure Garden brought to you by Gillete Blue Blades for the sharpest shave of all. "To be sharp and be on the ball, use Gillete Blue Blades" Jimmy Powers of the Daily News did the reporting. Had the best fighters of the time featured. Bad at the spelling but saw Nino Valdes, Bob Satterfield, Tommy "hurricane" Jackson, Joey Giardello, Robinson, Bobo Olsen etc. My favorite was "Irish" Bob Murphy. Had aout 60 fights won 30 by knockout and lost 30 by knockout. What a glass chin but he could hit. My favorite fights and they were both televised was when Robinson with a perfectly timed left hook knocked out Gene Fullmer. First time fullmer ever went down, and the Archie Moore, Yvon Durelle bout. Can't believe aged Morre, late came back to beat the young, powerful Canadian.

Now my thrills is watching Lamont posting his latest.


Harvey

What about Jersey Joe Walcott or Rocky Marciano? Ever see them on TV when you were growing up? From the footage I've seen, I'd say Rocky Marciano is my favorite. His career didn't last as long as most other heavyweights, but he finished at 49-0 and was one of like 3 or 4 guys to still be heavyweight champ when he retired. Joe Louis and Lennox Lewis were 2 others, there might be another I'm forgetting. In fact, that's why Marciano had to fight Louis before getting a shot at the title, because Louis was still heavyweight champ when he retired, so when he tried to make a comeback, he was ranked as the number one contender. Even as old as he was, Louis gave him a heck of a fight in the early rounds, but Marciano was too strong, well conditioned and tenacious. He's the only guy I've ever watched them never seemed to stop throwing punches. I have one of those HBO Boxing's Best tapes that shows some Marciano fights. I have the Jack Dempsey one somewhere too, that guy was tough as well. Rocky Marciano's other big fights were when he beat Walcott for the heavyweight title in 13 rounds, then knocked him out again in the rematch, his 2 wins by decision over Ezzard Charles, his close decision win over Roland Lastarza and then when he knocked out Lastarza in their rematch and his last fight, when he knocked out Archie Moore.

I grew up in the '80s and '90s so the best fighters I saw growing up were Holyfield, Lennox Lewis, Sugar Ray Leonard, Marvin Hagler, Thomas Hearns, Roberto Duran and probably Oscar De La Hoya and Tyson early in his career. I've seen an ad somewhere for this DVD set of the best of a boxing series that used to air on USA called Tuesday Night Fights, I'm probably gonna get that, because it's supposed to be all knockouts. I can't get into boxing much anymore today because there's nobody really dominant, especially among the heavyweights. More often now, I'll watch the mixed martial arts on the UFC DVDs or UFC Unleashed on Spike TV, because most fights there end in a knockout or tap out. The scoring is kind of interesting to me, because it seems to combine both kickboxing and wrestling scoring, so not just punches or kicks landed, but also stuff like takedowns and top control. Chuck Lidell I like watching the most these days, I think he's welterweight champ now. I saw a fight where he escaped a choke, got to his feet and clamped on a choke hold of his own to get the tap out. Plus even when there is a good boxer, they never seem to fight anyone that good or challenging for them. Roy Jones and Bernard Hopkins are examples of that IMO. What do you guys think?

[Anthony33]

There is some spoof movie out there, when you watch it, there is a poster in the back ground that has an old bald man on it, in a boxing outfit with gloves on and it say's Rocky 39.

That poster might be on to something. God Bless

Michael

Cool, let us know if you remember the name of it.

[lilhave]

"Jersey Joe" was a clever heavyweight but wasn't much of a crowd favorite. He would throw a punch and then clutch. Could make for a boring fight. In, and I believe it was in 1948 he challanged Louis for the title and if you listened to it on radio, Walcott easily outpointed him. It was a masterful fight and the radio announcers had Walcott way ahead. In fact when the fight ended Louis was so disgusted in his performace that before the verdick was announced he got off the stool to leave the ring. Louis got the split decision and boos cascaded down at the Garden.


Walcott later became the oldest man to win the heavywight title beating Ezzard Charles for the title.

Louis by this time was fighting for paychecks as the government tied up his money for back taxes and he was a shell of the fighter he was. In the early 50's he was fodder for the up and coming "Brockton blockbuster", Rocky Marciano, and Marciano in a sad scene with Louis lying thru the ropes, put him away late.

Marciano could hit but he only weighed about 190 and I believe would have been to small to compete today. You could hit him all day but you couldn't move him.

Harvey

[Anthony33]

"Jersey Joe" was a clever heavyweight but wasn't much of a crowd favorite. He would throw a punch and then clutch. Could make for a boring fight. In, and I believe it was in 1948 he challanged Louis for the title and if you listened to it on radio, Walcott easily outpointed him. It was a masterful fight and the radio announcers had Walcott way ahead. In fact when the fight ended Louis was so disgusted in his performace that before the verdick was announced he got off the stool to leave the ring. Louis got the split decision and boos cascaded down at the Garden.


Walcott later became the oldest man to win the heavywight title beating Ezzard Charles for the title.

Louis by this time was fighting for paychecks as the government tied up his money for back taxes and he was a shell of the fighter he was. In the early 50's he was fodder for the up and coming "Brockton blockbuster", Rocky Marciano, and Marciano in a sad scene with Louis lying thru the ropes, put him away late.

Marciano could hit but he only weighed about 190 and I believe would have been to small to compete today. You could hit him all day but you couldn't move him.

Harvey

Yeah usually around 190 from the fights I've seen of him, sometimes in the 180s range. But then again, you never know, Holyfield was usually around 210 in his prime when most heavyweights were 220-250 pounds. And it's true about Marciano's chin and tougness, I think he was only knocked down twice in his career, once in the first Walcott fight. Walcott may have been boring, but his fights with Rocky weren't. Marciano won the title on a 13th round knockout and I heard he was well behind on points so he needed the KO to win. In the second fight, I think it was like in the second round he knocked out Walcott. Speaking of boxing, I'll probably check out the Shane Mosley/Fernando Vargas replay this weekend on HBO. Anybody watch UFC? A great site to check on careers of fighters is a site called boxrec.com. Anyone happen to catch Saturday Night's Main Event this weekend? I guess DX is back.:)

[T-Greg]

Yeah usually around 190 from the fights I've seen of him, sometimes in the 180s range. But then again, you never know, Holyfield was usually around 210 in his prime when most heavyweights were 220-250 pounds. And it's true about Marciano's chin and tougness, I think he was only knocked down twice in his career, once in the first Walcott fight. Walcott may have been boring, but his fights with Rocky weren't. Marciano won the title on a 13th round knockout and I heard he was well behind on points so he needed the KO to win. In the second fight, I think it was like in the second round he knocked out Walcott. Speaking of boxing, I'll probably check out the Shane Mosley/Fernando Vargas replay this weekend on HBO. Anybody watch UFC? A great site to check on careers of fighters is a site called boxrec.com. Anyone happen to catch Saturday Night's Main Event this weekend? I guess DX is back.:)

My dad has always said there hasn't ever been anyone who could beat "The Rock" (Marciano).

[lilhave]

My dad has always said there hasn't ever been anyone who could beat "The Rock" (Marciano).

In his prime he was the best as Dempsey was in his prime. Problem is fighters of today have gotten bigger and stronger, and we know what happens when a fighter goes up in weight class. Sometimes a a gain of 7 lbs and a fighter loses somewhat of his punching power against bigger foes. So he makes up for it with speed and savvy but that wasn't Marciano's style. His was move forward and take 3 punches to land one. Don't know effective that would have been against bigger and stronger men. His reach wasn't far and guys like Holmes and Lewis would have had no problem keeping him at bay. Reminded me lot of a smaller Mike Tyson.

I think back to the early days of the NBA where the Knick center was Harry "the horse Gallatin", only 6 foot 6. The players of today would have been to big and to strong for yesteryears to compete.

In the 50's and 60's offensive lineman in football went 240 or so. Jack Stoud all pro pu;;ing guard for the Giants was 245. At middle linebacker Sam Huff, all pro was also about 245. Playing today they would have had a problem holding off 300 lb. plus defensive players.

Better tecniques, better weight programs, better foods have made todays athletics bigger and stronger, and in boxing strength, size and condition play a big factor, that is not to diminish Marciano's place in boxing's hall of fame.

Harvey

[T-Greg]

In his prime he was the best as Dempsey was in his prime. Problem is fighters of today have gotten bigger and stronger, and we know what happens when a fighter goes up in weight class. Sometimes a a gain of 7 lbs and a fighter loses somewhat of his punching power against bigger foes. So he makes up for it with speed and savvy but that wasn't Marciano's style. His was move forward and take 3 punches to land one. Don't know effective that would have been against bigger and stronger men. His reach wasn't far and guys like Holmes and Lewis would have had no problem keeping him at bay. Reminded me lot of a smaller Mike Tyson.

I think back to the early days of the NBA where the Knick center was Harry "the horse Gallatin", only 6 foot 6. The players of today would have been to big and to strong for yesteryears to compete.

In the 50's and 60's offensive lineman in football went 240 or so. Jack Stoud all pro pu;;ing guard for the Giants was 245. At middle linebacker Sam Huff, all pro was also about 245. Playing today they would have had a problem holding off 300 lb. plus defensive players.

Better tecniques, better weight programs, better foods have made todays athletics bigger and stronger, and in boxing strength, size and condition play a big factor, that is not to diminish Marciano's place in boxing's hall of fame.

Harvey

I agree. It's tough and unfair to compare athletes of different time periods. Marciano was the traditional "in-your face, I'll outpunch you" type boxer and not the flashy Ali type. Remember Ted Williams was a skinny guy who hit over 500 HR's, was drafted, fought in WW2 and came back to play baseball. How many guys today have something to compare to that?

[loren]

i believe its impossible to compare fighters--or baseball and football players over the eras

in the boxing ring, one can only go by whom they fought in their time

in his time, marciano was the best for his time

i think clay would have mauled him, in shear size, superior hand speed, and just plain being hard to hit, he rarely presented himself as a targey

i watched a lot of the old film, and marciano had a style that was like stallone in his movies

straight ahead, and easy to hit

another thing that makes clay stand out, is that he had many popular and good challengers

foreman, fraizer, ken norton, patterson , liston

all of whom could have been dominate champs had clay not been around

thats one thing that will keep lennox lewis from being considered an all time great

he had no competitors of name and quality

he was the champ in a down cycle of big fighters

too bad for him, but he beat everyone they put in front of him

same as marciano did

[lilhave]

I agree. It's tough and unfair to compare athletes of different time periods. Marciano was the traditional "in-your face, I'll outpunch you" type boxer and not the flashy Ali type. Remember Ted Williams was a skinny guy who hit over 500 HR's, was drafted, fought in WW2 and came back to play baseball. How many guys today have something to compare to that?

Williams "the splendid splinter", actually gave up 4 prime years, two in WW2 and two in the Korean conflict. Who knows how many hrs, he would have hit. His problem was he wouldn't swing at a pinch a half inch off the plate. They begged him to but he wouldn't. His archilles heel was his poor glove, couldn't or wouldn't play the "green monster" in Boston. His arm reminded me of a girl from Sarah J. Hale throwing one in but boy could he hit. He uncoiled on the ball, similar to Stan Musial but Musial had a deeper crouch. To me the greatest I ever saw was Willie Mays, a 5 tool player if there ever was one.

Harvey

[Anthony33]

i believe its impossible to compare fighters--or baseball and football players over the eras

in the boxing ring, one can only go by whom they fought in their time

in his time, marciano was the best for his time

i think clay would have mauled him, in shear size, superior hand speed, and just plain being hard to hit, he rarely presented himself as a targey

i watched a lot of the old film, and marciano had a style that was like stallone in his movies

straight ahead, and easy to hit

another thing that makes clay stand out, is that he had many popular and good challengers

foreman, fraizer, ken norton, patterson , liston

all of whom could have been dominate champs had clay not been around

thats one thing that will keep lennox lewis from being considered an all time great

he had no competitors of name and quality

he was the champ in a down cycle of big fighters

too bad for him, but he beat everyone they put in front of him

same as marciano did

Marciano had plenty of quality opponents. Jersey Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore. He proved himself as the best of his era. And what's to say that these guys wouldn't bulk up and become the same size as today's players if they were competing in the modern era? If you wanna talk guys who were dominant but never really fought any major quality opponents, then I got two names for ya. Roy Jones and Bernard Hopkins.

[Anthony33]

My dad has always said there hasn't ever been anyone who could beat "The Rock" (Marciano).

Your dad's a smart guy. :)

[lilhave]

Marciano had plenty of quality opponents. Jersey Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore. He proved himself as the best of his era. And what's to say that these guys wouldn't bulk up and become the same size as today's players if they were competing in the modern era? If you wanna talk guys who were dominant but never really fought any major quality opponents, then I got two names for ya. Roy Jones and Bernard Hopkins.

Walcott was in his mid 30's when Marciano was coming up. Charles was also on the wrong side of 30. Moore was a great fighter but was a blown up light heavy. His best fights were at 175. Like Louis before him, Marciano had a steady diet of no names. Still he was great for his era. Problem is could he have gotten through fighters of today who have a 6 or 7 inch reach and 40 to 50 lbs on him. as the fighters of today are.? Would his punching power and he was not a one punch fighter but wore you down be enough to stop a 235 lb fighter.? I have yet to say a fighter give away that much weight and dominate. I see guys go up 7 lbs and don't even hurt their oppenets.

Harvey

[Anthony33]

Walcott was in his mid 30's when Marciano was coming up. Charles was also on the wrong side of 30. Moore was a great fighter but was a blown up light heavy. His best fights were at 175. Like Louis before him, Marciano had a steady diet of no names. Still he was great for his era. Problem is could he have gotten through fighters of today who have a 6 or 7 inch reach and 40 to 50 lbs on him. as the fighters of today are.? Would his punching power and he was not a one punch fighter but wore you down be enough to stop a 235 lb fighter.? I have yet to say a fighter give away that much weight and dominate. I see guys go up 7 lbs and don't even hurt their oppenets.

Harvey

Yeah well Walcott still gave Marciano the best fight of his career. Rocky was way behind on points and got the knockout he needed to win. Charles went the distance twice with Marciano, so he was good competition in my book. Sure, a much bigger fighter will usually win, but what I'm saying is if Rocky were fighting guys that were 230-250, he'd have bulked up to that weight over time and been able to compete with those guys. He may not have been a one punch knockout guy, but he did put a few away with some nice combinations and that great left hook of his and overhand right. I'm not denying that other guys like Ali or Foreman had much better competition in their eras. I'm just saying that not every opponent for Rocky Marciano was an easy tomato can. And hell, people probably see him that way now because some guys didn't want to fight him. Hell, Walcott held off having to defend the title against him as long as he could before granting Rocky a title shot.

Speaking of light heavy, isn't Sugar Ray Robinson considered the best light heavyweight of all time? And didn't Archie Moore die in the late '90s or early 2000s? I remember seeing some news reports about him after his death and they mentioned Moore also fought Ali, that's how long his career lasted. I think he said Ali was the quickest he ever fought and the best jabber or something and didn't consider Rocky a great boxer, but a real tough fighter with great endurance. Could Rocky have beaten the guys of today? Well, we'll never know and it's one of those things that are fun to talk about ad infinitum. Kind of like asking how many more homers baseball players of the past might have hit with these newer ballparks that have much shorter walls and with all the weight lifting, steroids and human growth hormone used today. Speaking of the Giants, huge Giants fan right here. I think the teams of the '50s, along with late '80s to early '90s of the Giants are considered some of the best defenses ever seen in the NFL.

What about other weight classes, who are you guys' favorites? I'd have to go with Sugar Ray Leonard, Marvin Hagler, Thomas Hearns, Roberto Duran, Felix Trinidad was pretty good, Marco Antonio Barrera and Arturo Gatti usually has some pretty exciting fights.

[Anthony33]

Oh yeah and speaking of Rocky 6, they did some parody of that this past week on Family Guy. I think in the clip the family was watching on their TV, it mentioned Rocky fighting on Mars and they had Adrian saying something like there's no air on Mars and Rocky just says "yeah, but the other guy won't be able to breathe either" and then you hear the "you can't win" line, like in Rocky 4 and then they had Paulie walking in with some expensive gift Rocky just bought him and he just falls down drunk :lol:

I always love the TV show and movie parodies they do on Family Guy.

[Master Blaster]

How old was George Foreman when he won his last World title?

[digitalmonkey]

How old was George Foreman when he won his last World title?


45

[lilhave]

The last thing that goes with a fighter is his power. His legs, stamina and reaction go first. George knew how to conserve his energy and those body blows of his were devasting. He was a big man and used his weight to his advantage. A little guy can't do that. The little guy has to keep moving, or he can get squashed. Has to outsmart and outbox. With so much money in the heavyweight ranks, quite a bit of washed up guys, laced up the sneaks and put on the trunks one more time. Wonder how much money Holyfield made after he couldn't fight anymore. A guy like Ruiz, in any generation would have been slaughtered.

Now when I grew up to see the middleweights like Zale, Grazianno, Robinson, now that was boxing.

I can remember a heavywight Tommy "hurricane' Jackson. No power, couldn't fight but threw 42,000 punches a round and wore you down. Was losing in every fight but late, his opponent would get arm weary and collapse. What a crowd pleaser.

Harvey

[loren]

the quality of a fighter has a lot to do with his management as well

when george foreman was a young buck

he was the biggest and meanest sob around

but he didnt have the refined skills of clay

or even little joe fraizer

what if--- the young george, with all that raw power and size, had been taught to harness it,

another example was tyson, he had zero fighting skills

he wanted to blast the other dude, and that worked, until he met some figher that wasnt about to stand there and take it

later in his years, he met evander, who was as skilled as they get in the technical science of fighting, and it was no contest what so ever

he punched himself out after a while, while evander ducked, and moved,and tyson had no chance

certainly tyson had far more punch, and should have been able to beat evander, but his trainers and handlers taught him well, very well

tyson was too stupid to teach, or listen, after his original handler died

what an utter waste of his god given talent

no fighter was feared like tyson was for about 5 years

most dudes were beat long before they entered the ring

[lilhave]

I bulked up, worked on my jab, had my right cross working, left hook was awsome, and I was ready to go 12.

I got in the ring threw a few jabs, hooked to the stomach, and still RedWhine put me away in 3.

Gotta stick to clay pots and ceramics.

A beaten Harv

[Anthony33]

The last thing that goes with a fighter is his power. His legs, stamina and reaction go first. George knew how to conserve his energy and those body blows of his were devasting. He was a big man and used his weight to his advantage. A little guy can't do that. The little guy has to keep moving, or he can get squashed. Has to outsmart and outbox. With so much money in the heavyweight ranks, quite a bit of washed up guys, laced up the sneaks and put on the trunks one more time. Wonder how much money Holyfield made after he couldn't fight anymore. A guy like Ruiz, in any generation would have been slaughtered.

Now when I grew up to see the middleweights like Zale, Grazianno, Robinson, now that was boxing.

I can remember a heavywight Tommy "hurricane' Jackson. No power, couldn't fight but threw 42,000 punches a round and wore you down. Was losing in every fight but late, his opponent would get arm weary and collapse. What a crowd pleaser.

Harvey

Ooh yeah, great middleweights, I've seen footage of them. Didn't Robinson beat Jake Lamotta like 5 out of 6 times and didn't Graziano have 3 fights against Zale? Who won 2 out of 3, Graziano? A lot of people say Robinson is the best all around boxer of all time, what do you think?

[Anthony33]

the quality of a fighter has a lot to do with his management as well

when george foreman was a young buck

he was the biggest and meanest sob around

but he didnt have the refined skills of clay

or even little joe fraizer

what if--- the young george, with all that raw power and size, had been taught to harness it,

another example was tyson, he had zero fighting skills

he wanted to blast the other dude, and that worked, until he met some figher that wasnt about to stand there and take it

later in his years, he met evander, who was as skilled as they get in the technical science of fighting, and it was no contest what so ever

he punched himself out after a while, while evander ducked, and moved,and tyson had no chance

certainly tyson had far more punch, and should have been able to beat evander, but his trainers and handlers taught him well, very well

tyson was too stupid to teach, or listen, after his original handler died

what an utter waste of his god given talent

no fighter was feared like tyson was for about 5 years

most dudes were beat long before they entered the ring

No, no fighter was more feared, except maybe for Sonny Liston, until Ali beat him twice in a row. Tyson's career went downhill after he stopped training with Kevin Rooney.

[lilhave]

Ooh yeah, great middleweights, I've seen footage of them. Didn't Robinson beat Jake Lamotta like 5 out of 6 times and didn't Graziano have 3 fights against Zale? Who won 2 out of 3, Graziano? A lot of people say Robinson is the best all around boxer of all time, what do you think?

Pound for pound Robinson was as good as they come. Fighting in weights between 147-160, he dominated the game. As quick a foot, with lightning handspeed, you couldn' lay a glove on him, and could he hit. Had over 100 kayos in his career.

Unlike today with pay per view and large arena's where one pay day can make a liftime of earnings, years ago you had to box to earn a living. Many, many, fighters had well over 100 fights in their career and still finished broke. Robinson didn't manage his money properly and went penniless, where if he was fighting today he would be a multi millionaire. The 30's and 40's had boxing dominated by club fighters with no television and little recogniiton. Boxing is one sport that doesn't play well on radio, and so many never saw the real greats. If you didn't live in the "big ciities", you never saw the stars.
Now boxing is on almost every night of the week in N.Y.

Harvey

[Anthony33]

Pound for pound Robinson was as good as they come. Fighting in weights between 147-160, he dominated the game. As quick a foot, with lightning handspeed, you couldn' lay a glove on him, and could he hit. Had over 100 kayos in his career.

Unlike today with pay per view and large arena's where one pay day can make a liftime of earnings, years ago you had to box to earn a living. Many, many, fighters had well over 100 fights in their career and still finished broke. Robinson didn't manage his money properly and went penniless, where if he was fighting today he would be a multi millionaire. The 30's and 40's had boxing dominated by club fighters with no television and little recogniiton. Boxing is one sport that doesn't play well on radio, and so many never saw the real greats. If you didn't live in the "big ciities", you never saw the stars.
Now boxing is on almost every night of the week in N.Y.

Harvey

Yeah, that's cool, but it's too bad it isn't on free TV anymore. Now you have to have HBO or Showtime or order a fight on pay per view. I think there was an HBO documentary on Robinson a few years back. I remember it mentioning that he kept trying to make comebacks because he needed the money and all these failed businesses he owned and then lost. That's something Marciano always tried to avoid too, not sticking around in boxing too long and saving money. There's a scene in the Jon Favreu Marciano movie where he sees a former lightweight champion named Lou Ambers working in a diner, because he ended up broke. Then there were always those stories about Rocky hiding his money at home or in whatever hotel he was staying in, because he didn't trust banks or even his manager Al Weill, at one point and insisted on being paid in cash for any appearances or speaking engagements done after his retirement. I think Robinson also tried to move up to light heavyweight, like Hopkins just did. That was the fight I think was in MSG where he was ahead on points, but lost by TKO from heat exhaustion. It was so hot, they had to replace the referee at some point in that fight. I was hoping Vitali Klitschko would be the next big heavyweight star, but I heard he had some kind of injury and had to retire, so now he's helping to train and in the corner of his brother Wladimir.

Any UFC fans here? Which mixed martial arts guys do you guys like watching? I like Chuck Lidell myself. I find it pretty exciting because UFC fights don't seem to go to the scorecards too often, at least that's the case when I'm able to catch UFC Unleashed.

[lilhave]

Yeah, that's cool, but it's too bad it isn't on free TV anymore. Now you have to have HBO or Showtime or order a fight on pay per view. I think there was an HBO documentary on Robinson a few years back. I remember it mentioning that he kept trying to make comebacks because he needed the money and all these failed businesses he owned and then lost. That's something Marciano always tried to avoid too, not sticking around in boxing too long and saving money. There's a scene in the Jon Favreu Marciano movie where he sees a former lightweight champion named Lou Ambers working in a diner, because he ended up broke. Then there were always those stories about Rocky hiding his money at home or in whatever hotel he was staying in, because he didn't trust banks or even his manager Al Weill, at one point and insisted on being paid in cash for any appearances or speaking engagements done after his retirement. I think Robinson also tried to move up to light heavyweight, like Hopkins just did. That was the fight I think was in MSG where he was ahead on points, but lost by TKO from heat exhaustion. It was so hot, they had to replace the referee at some point in that fight. I was hoping Vitali Klitschko would be the next big heavyweight star, but I heard he had some kind of injury and had to retire, so now he's helping to train and in the corner of his brother Wladimir.

Any UFC fans here? Which mixed martial arts guys do you guys like watching? I like Chuck Lidell myself. I find it pretty exciting because UFC fights don't seem to go to the scorecards too often, at least that's the case when I'm able to catch UFC Unleashed.

The fight your speaking of was against Joey Maxim, light heavyweight champ. Robinson figured he could beat him as while Maxim was a clever boxer, he couldn't punch, like a former light heavy champ, "slapsie" Maxie Rosenbloom. Robinson bulked up and was to heavy for his size. For the first 12 he outpointed Maxim and appeared to be the next champ. Maxim, who used his weight advantage well, leaned on Robinson the whole fight, and Robinson's power was neutralized as he didn't even stun Maxim and he landed some big blows. Believe they fought at the old Polo Grounds and the heat and Maxim took it's toll on Robinson, and he couldn't continue as he was completely exhausted. Another example of a man, and a great one at that, trying to go up to much in weight.

Harvey

[loren]

i have watched the ufc since it started on payperview

i had direct tv for free for many years, so we got all the pay events as well

i am too cheap to pay for the events, but they are on netflix for about a buck, so i just rent them anymore

i like to watch tank abbott, and my favorite is the iceman


boxing pound for pound

one needs to drop alexis argueo intothe hat

he had 4 weight class belts,and just could not compete again aaron pryor, and got hammered twice trying to get that 5th belt

he was nothing like chaves, who found 40 fat cab drivers from mexico to boost his record

this kid fought everyone who had the nads to try him out, and in 5 weight classes

thats one tough sob, and maybe the toughest pound for pound fighter ever


boxing fan

im sujh a boxing fan, i watched the entire butterbean vs 51 year old larry holmes fight in its entirety

now thats a fan, dude

[T-Greg]

i have watched the ufc since it started on payperview

i had direct tv for free for many years, so we got all the pay events as well

i am too cheap to pay for the events, but they are on netflix for about a buck, so i just rent them anymore

i like to watch tank abbott, and my favorite is the iceman


boxing pound for pound

one needs to drop alexis argueo intothe hat

he had 4 weight class belts,and just could not compete again aaron pryor, and got hammered twice trying to get that 5th belt

he was nothing like chaves, who found 40 fat cab drivers from mexico to boost his record

this kid fought everyone who had the nads to try him out, and in 5 weight classes

thats one tough sob, and maybe the toughest pound for pound fighter ever


boxing fan

im sujh a boxing fan, i watched the entire butterbean vs 51 year old larry holmes fight in its entirety

now thats a fan, dude

Butterbean. That brings back memories. Speaking of huge athletes, do you remember the Olympic wrestler Chris Taylor? A red-headed guy who weighed over 400 pounds. He'd never been beaten in his life, much less been pinned. Anyway, in 1972, he wrestled this West German that was less than half his weight (this is from memory and I don't think that's an exaggeration) and the German pinned Taylor and won. The German was jumping up and down like he just won the lottery. I think the viewing audience was just as shocked as Taylor was. Noone expected that outcome.

Chris Taylor link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Taylor_%28wrestler%29

[Anthony33]

Butterbean. That brings back memories. Speaking of huge athletes, do you remember the Olympic wrestler Chris Taylor? A red-headed guy who weighed over 400 pounds. He'd never been beaten in his life, much less been pinned. Anyway, in 1972, he wrestled this West German that was less than half his weight (this is from memory and I don't think that's an exaggeration) and the German pinned Taylor and won. The German was jumping up and down like he just won the lottery. I think the viewing audience was just as shocked as Taylor was. Noone expected that outcome.

Chris Taylor link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Taylor_%28wrestler%29

Cool, it also says he was in the AWA. I used to like to watch their weekly shows and when they'd play their old matches on ESPN, along with watching WCCW weekday afternoons and checking out the Von Erichs. Speaking of AWA, anyone remember the Team Challenge Series? They actually had this jobber Jake Milliman win a bunch of matches toward the end of that competition and even the battle royal to decide the winning team.

[Lamont]

the AWA was soooo bad at the end
the TEAM CHALLENGE SERIES was such a joke
b/c people were leaving the AWA left and right and noone could be a REAL TEAM for long

LARRY NELSON the old awa announcer has a book out called CHOKEHOLD i think or STRANGLEHOLD
he talks about at the end of the AWA, checks were bouncing left and right
they were even taping matches in EMPTY ARENAS!
it was so bad
but i loved it

FUNNY SIDE NOTE--- back in the 80s i was once AWA FAN OF THE WEEK and they read some silly letter i sent to them on ESPN and sent me a prize pack of junk!

[Anthony33]

the AWA was soooo bad at the end
the TEAM CHALLENGE SERIES was such a joke
b/c people were leaving the AWA left and right and noone could be a REAL TEAM for long

LARRY NELSON the old awa announcer has a book out called CHOKEHOLD i think or STRANGLEHOLD
he talks about at the end of the AWA, checks were bouncing left and right
they were even taping matches in EMPTY ARENAS!
it was so bad
but i loved it

FUNNY SIDE NOTE--- back in the 80s i was once AWA FAN OF THE WEEK and they read some silly letter i sent to them on ESPN and sent me a prize pack of junk!

Yeah it certainly sucked in the end. I thought back then Eric Bischoff was just an announcer, but then I heard he was running AWA or booking towards the end. It's no surprise that he also ran WCW into the ground as well. I pretty muched watch the TCS because of the interviews Larry Zybysko would give. The best one was after they won the whole thing and even though Jake Milliman was a big part of their victory, even winning the battle royal at the end, Zybysko just pushes him aside and says "thanks a million" and starts cracking up and holding up the huge million dollar check. I used to like when they showed old matches late Saturday night. I think it had a name like mat classics or something. A good boxing site is http://www.boxrec.com and a good wrestling info site is http://www.obsessedwithwrestling.com and http://www.kayfabememories.com is also great if you're an old school wrestling fan. I was a WCW fan too, mostly WWF though. I watched WCW until about the mid '90s, when Bischoff just ruined it and pretty much underutilized Bret Hart. The best was when they had Ric Flair, Dusty Rhodes, Ricky Steamboat, and Arn Anderson in their heyday and the Four Horsemen, The Road Warriors, Midnight Express, Rock N Roll Express, guys like that.

[Lamont]

that at the end the AWA had no $$$ (the million dollar check was such a joke, i dont think the company had 10 grand at the time!) they had no talent except Larry Zybysko (who was married to AWA owner Verne Gagnes DAUGHTER so he had to stay) and a few washed up stars trying to get buy---- they had so little money and talent that guys like
JAKE THE MILKMAN MILLIMAN who were complete prelim jobbers and
EARTHQUAKE FERRIS who was just a fat sloppy kid got lots of air time and coverage!

i kept thinking to myself CAN THIS BE REAL!!!???

i think the funniest thing (FORGIVE ME ALL U PEOPLE WHO HATE WRESTLING AND HAVE NO IDEA WHAT I MEAN) was the RAP video for the AWA WRESTLEROCK supercard

it was so tacky and low budget
they had all the "stars" of the AWA rapping stupid lyrics
like

450 pound JERRY BLACKWELL rapping "IM JERRY BLACKWELL AND I HATE THE SHEIK, I WANT TO GET MY HANDS ON THE PENCIL NECK GEEK"
and 70 something VERNE GAGNE embarassing himself by rapping " THERE SOME OLD SCORES THAT STILL GIVE ME TROUBLE, AND IM GETTING THE URGE TO DO THE WRESTLEROCK RUMBLE!"

the whole video was hilarious and they must have been so humilated to have to do it!:wave:

[Anthony33]

Wow, glad I never saw that, it sounds horrid. Almost as bad as that PN News character they had in WCW, some big fat guy with huge glasses and a sideways hat trying to rap. Speaking of crappy gimmicks and worst wrestling moments, that reminds me of another great site http://www.wrestlecrap.com

[Lamont]

PN NEWS was actually PAUL NEU (that was the P.N.) and he was in the AWA briefly at the very end before he went to WCW and got his own rapping gimmick!
he was just as bad in the AWA too, BUT not as stupid of a gimmick

:lol:

[loren]

jake the milkman

wow that brings back memories

he was about as talented as the kid tyson fought who was a fork lift driver at the shopko warehouse in green bay

or peter mc nealy who also lasted about 40 seconds, peter had a nice record, but he fought the same guy about 18 times it turned out

and jerry blackwell, he was about 5-7 at most,and yes he was large, but maybe 350 was an accuate guess on the weight, no where close to 460 as they would claim

[loren]

awa true story

my friend worked at a place that sold awa wresting tickets

so me and some other buds got 6 front row seats for an event in town

we got there and sat down

just when the event was to begin, we were told by ushers that we had to move to the other side of the venue, so that it looked like there were many folks there, since it was being taped for tv

well they wanted us to sit like in row 10

wrong

4 of the folks took it like a dog, but i wouldnt move

i paid and held front roe seats, im not moving for nothing

so after 10 minutes, they left us alone

it was a pretty good show that night

sgt slaughter, the shiek, soli sam, the baby bull-white, spud head zabisko,

anyhow greg gagne gets tossed out of the ring and lands basicaly on our feet

he gives my left leg a shove--who knows why, so i kicked the wimp in the ribs

about that time the --paid looser--came and threw gane back into the ring, and covered him, and by some miracle, gagne rolls him and hasa 1.1 second three count for the win

too bad that never got on camera

we watched the event a couple weeks later

they showed a match here and there

there was maybe 100 people at the place

they had it dark behind the small crowd, on tv you could really tell it was such a small group

pretty sad how it went down the tubes so bad


i also went to the first wrestlemania pay per view at a college area nearby

they had about a 50 foot screen

they were selling $5 tickets, since they couldnt sell many at $25

that was a pretty good show

[Anthony33]

Well Jerry Blackwell was a star at one time though, wasn't he? I heard he was the guy that made the big splash off the ropes move famous, that guys like One Man Gang and Ultimate Warrior used later? Speaking of UW, I've seen that guys website, he seems like he's out of his mind and seems like a real jerk from that Self Destruction of the Ultimate Warrior DVD, although they did still acknowledge the guy's strength and charisma.

And you saw Wrestlemania 1 on a closed circuit screen at a college arena? Musta been pretty cool, although there were maybe only a couple of good matches on that card. I think the opening match was where Ricky Steamboat squashed Matt Borne. Borne went on to gimmicks like "The Maniac" Matt Borne in WCCW, Big Josh in WCW and, of course, the original Doink The Clown. The only other match that comes to mind, without looking it up, is the tag team main event with Hogan and Mr. T vs. Roddy Piper and Paul Orndorff. Recently, about a year ago, Bob Orton tried to do use the loaded cast again to help out his son Randy Orton in a match. I think it backfired though. Randy has a match with Hogan at this year's Summerslam, by the way. Tito Santana beat The Executioner aka a maked Buddy Rose, who would return to WWF without the mask and do the memorable Blow Away diet commercial :lol: I did kinda like when Big John Studd lost the bodyslam match to Andre The Giant too. It didn't really get that good until Wrestlemania 3 though IMO.

[lilhave]

Well Jerry Blackwell was a star at one time though, wasn't he? I heard he was the guy that made the big splash off the ropes move famous, that guys like One Man Gang and Ultimate Warrior used later? Speaking of UW, I've seen that guys website, he seems like he's out of his mind and seems like a real jerk from that Self Destruction of the Ultimate Warrior DVD, although they did still acknowledge the guy's strength and charisma.

And you saw Wrestlemania 1 on a closed circuit screen at a college arena? Musta been pretty cool, although there were maybe only a couple of good matches on that card. I think the opening match was where Ricky Steamboat squashed Matt Borne. Borne went on to gimmicks like "The Maniac" Matt Borne in WCCW, Big Josh in WCW and, of course, the original Doink The Clown. The only other match that comes to mind, without looking it up, is the tag team main event with Hogan and Mr. T vs. Roddy Piper and Paul Orndorff. Recently, about a year ago, Bob Orton tried to do use the loaded cast again to help out his son Randy Orton in a match. I think it backfired though. Randy has a match with Hogan at this year's Summerslam, by the way. Tito Santana beat The Executioner aka a maked Buddy Rose, who would return to WWF without the mask and do the memorable Blow Away diet commercial :lol: I did kinda like when Big John Studd lost the bodyslam match to Andre The Giant too. It didn't really get that good until Wrestlemania 3 though IMO.

Jerry Blackwell was a big star in Georgia wrestling during the 80's. Weighed over 400 lbs, not tall but moved very well for a big guy. Started as a heel and then turned into a face. Real good worker. Passed away some years back.

To me, in N.Y.C. the glory years of wrestling was the mid 50's to the mid 60's. wrestling was on every night of the week from different parts of the country, so you saw all the stars. They didn't feature gimmicks like today. Now in many cases you can't tell the difference between a bad guy and a good guy. In the olden days there was a major difference. You knew immediately Kowalski, the Shiek and Dr. Jerry Graham were bad guys. It was fun back then and I spent many a hour enjoying them. Maybe that's why I'm the way I am today.

To show you where I come from. As a kid I used to watch on saturdays, roller Derby, with Tuffy Beshoin and Anne Murray.

Anyone ever see demolition derby, zoo parade and the flying fisherman on tv? Three of my favorites.

Harvey

[Anthony33]

Anne Murray? Not the singer, I take it. So who were your favorite workers in wrestling? From the footage I've seen, I'd go with Bruno Sammartino, Ivan Koloff, Reggie "The Crusher" Lisowski, Gorgeous George, Lou Thesz, The Sheik, Killer Kowalski (who I heard has trained many guys too).

I used to really dislike today's wrestling and a lot of stuff about it I still do, but I've really grown to like some of this more high flying and high impact action of today. And I kinda like that a lot of the good guys are real badasses, like Stone Cold Steve Austin was, or like Triple H is now. Eddie Guererro (RIP) did a great job of making the crowd love him with his dirty tactics, because he figured if the bad guys can cheat, than so will I.:lol: Of course, he was great in the ring as well. I still remember the classic ending where he unties his own boot against Kurt Angle (whose more of an old school guy, with his great technical skills and background), so that when he goes to slap on his ankle lock, Eddie slips out of it and does the inside cradle small package for the pin and drapes his legs around the ropes for good measure to take the WWE title.

I grew up in the '80s to early '90s, so the best guys in the business of that era to me are Hogan (charismatic, although not great technically), Andre The Giant, Bret Hart (my favorite), The Rock N Roll Express, The Midnight Express, Tully Blanchard and Arn Anderson, Randy Savage, Ricky Steamboat and Ric Flair, Roddy Piper, Greg Valentine, etc.

Ever seen the match where Ivan Koloff won the WWWF belt from Bruno? I heard the crowd was so shocked that they were dead silent.

[lilhave]

Anne Murray? Not the singer, I take it. So who were your favorite workers in wrestling? From the footage I've seen, I'd go with Bruno Sammartino, Ivan Koloff, Reggie "The Crusher" Lisowski, Gorgeous George, Lou Thesz, The Sheik, Killer Kowalski (who I heard has trained many guys too).

I used to really dislike today's wrestling and a lot of stuff about it I still do, but I've really grown to like some of this more high flying and high impact action of today. And I kinda like that a lot of the good guys are real badasses, like Stone Cold Steve Austin was, or like Triple H is now. Eddie Guererro (RIP) did a great job of making the crowd love him with his dirty tactics, because he figured if the bad guys can cheat, than so will I.:lol: Of course, he was great in the ring as well. I still remember the classic ending where he unties his own boot against Kurt Angle (whose more of an old school guy, with his great technical skills and background), so that when he goes to slap on his ankle lock, Eddie slips out of it and does the inside cradle small package for the pin and drapes his legs around the ropes for good measure to take the WWE title.

I grew up in the '80s to early '90s, so the best guys in the business of that era to me are Hogan (charismatic, although not great technically), Andre The Giant, Bret Hart (my favorite), The Rock N Roll Express, The Midnight Express, Tully Blanchard and Arn Anderson, Randy Savage, Ricky Steamboat and Ric Flair, Roddy Piper, Greg Valentine, etc.

Ever seen the match where Ivan Koloff won the WWWF belt from Bruno? I heard the crowd was so shocked that they were dead silent.

My favorite all time wrestler was the original Shiek. He knew how to rile up the crowd. He had the camel trot, would point up at the heavens, fire thumb, pointed boots and would always bring a fork in the ring. He loved to beat up the princess. Really a great performer and his matches against Bobo Brazil and his head butt were classics. His real name was Ed Farahat and he came from Philly. Died two years ago and his nephew is Sabu.

Thought Terry Funk was marvelous. Gave the crowd their money's worth as a bad guy or good guy. Tireless worker.

Lisowski. I can remember him as just Reggie Lisowski, before he became Crusher Lisowski and then just the Crusher.

Walter "Killer" Kowalski, one of the great all time villains, with his claw hold.

Always enjoyed the antics of "Bulldog" Brower and thought "superstar" Graham played his role perfectly.

Sanmartino was a bad, bad, worker. No holds, no nothing. Same routine match after match. Gets beat up and then makes recovery and wins, ala Hogan.

Harvey

[Anthony33]

My favorite all time wrestler was the original Shiek. He knew how to rile up the crowd. He had the camel trot, would point up at the heavens, fire thumb, pointed boots and would always bring a fork in the ring. He loved to beat up the princess. Really a great performer and his matches against Bobo Brazil and his head butt were classics. His real name was Ed Farahat and he came from Philly. Died two years ago and his nephew is Sabu.

Thought Terry Funk was marvelous. Gave the crowd their money's worth as a bad guy or good guy. Tireless worker.

Lisowski. I can remember him as just Reggie Lisowski, before he became Crusher Lisowski and then just the Crusher.

Walter "Killer" Kowalski, one of the great all time villains, with his claw hold.

Always enjoyed the antics of "Bulldog" Brower and thought "superstar" Graham played his role perfectly.

Sanmartino was a bad, bad, worker. No holds, no nothing. Same routine match after match. Gets beat up and then makes recovery and wins, ala Hogan.

Harvey

Really. That's interesting. That's the first time I've heard that about Bruno. I usually hear about him being a good scientific wrestler along with his brawling. Well, he's still one of my all time favorites, along with those other guys you mentioned, except Bulldog Brower, names sounds familiar but I don't think I've ever seen any video of him.

Are you getting any of these great wrestler DVDs or 3 disc sets? The Bret Hart and Jake the Snake Roberts ones are great. The Triple H one is alright, he hasn't been around long enough, so his is only one disc. I hope in like 15 or 20 years when he retires that they do a major DVD set of him. I still have to get the Dusty Rhodes and Billy Graham ones. The Greatest Wrestling Stars of the '80s one is a great set too, with mini bios of each star shown, along with some classic promos and interview segments to go with the matches. One of my all time favorite matches is on there too, when Ricky Steamboat pins Ric Flair for the NWA Heavyweight Title at the Chi Town Rumble in 1989. That's one of my favorite feuds too, because both guys were so exciting to watch and worked together a lot from about the early '80s to mid '90s. I still remember following that feud on TV. Steamboat's feud with Savage was almost as good. I remember Rick making this big triumphant return on a Saturday night NWA TV taping, where he pins Flair in a tag match with his top rope body press, which led to the classic pay per view match. Even after Steamboat won the belt, they still had some great matches, the best being the two out of three falls match at one of the Clash shows that year. That's probably the only time Flair ever submitted in a match. Then Flair wins the belt back at Wreslewar '89 and starts another great feud with Terry Funk. I think it was at the Great American Bash that year where Flair ended up using the branding iron on Funk. Terry definitely lives up to his name of the Hardcore Icon. And, of course, there was the classic Flair/Funk I Quit match at another Clash show.

Okay then, so who do you guys think is the best technical wrestler of all time? I'd probably say Bret Hart, because he usually mixed in some great high impact moves, to go with the great mat wrestling. His best work was probably with Curt Hennig. Who else would people usually mention though? I guess probably Lou Thesz? Chris Benoit I'd put on that list too, along with any of the Guererros. I even used to watch Mando, Hector and Chavo Sr. in AWA back in the day when I was in high school. Randy Savage was a great worker, but he's considered more of a high impact, high flyer type. Probably Rick Martel too, maybe Tito Santana, I always liked him. Speaking of Sabu, I caught the end of this week's ECW show and saw Big Show defend his heavyweight title in a pretty long, hardcore, high impact match. After he beat Kane with the choke slam on the chair, Sabu comes out and attacks him. What's the camel trot and fire thumb. The pointing to the heavens I know because Sabu always does it too.