Elizabeth Campbell

[greatgarrett2]

Just wondering if there have been any updates on the Elizabeth Campbell case since those sightings around Texas and her purse being found? I know that was a long time ago, but I've tried searching the Net and only came up with a couple sites that only state her profile at best.

Are both her parents still alive?
That man she was seen with seemed creepy.

I saw this segment (thanks to crystaldawn), and remembered it from my childhood. Creepy.

Just wondering?

[wiseguy182]

I have seen this case several times on Lifetime and there was never an update to it. At least not that I've seen. Yes that guy was creepy. I think each of the 3 different convience store clerks had hunches that something was wrong, but since they couldn't prove it, they didn't act on it. Turns out they all would have been right. The guy seemed to take a risk on his part that last time by letting her go in the store by herself, as that might have provided an opportunity for her to let someone inside the store know what was going on, but nothing came of it. Unfortunate. I wish there was a happier ending here.

[crystaldawn]

Such a sad case to think that she could still be out there not knowing who she is. Yes she's still on the doe network which means she's still missing. Here's another webpage about her with a age progressed picture:

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/mpch/Prevfindme/prev102802/Campbell_Elizabeth.htm

[Kane]

Just wondering if there have been any updates on the Elizabeth Campbell case since those sightings around Texas and her purse being found? I know that was a long time ago, but I've tried searching the Net and only came up with a couple sites that only state her profile at best.

Are both her parents still alive?

I don't know about Elizabeth's father, but I know her mother was alive as late as 2005. In fact, a local TV station in Texas did a feature on the disappearance last year. They interviewed Elizabeth's mother, and it was obvious that she hadn't (and most likely still hasn't) given up hope that she will one day find Elizabeth. According to the segment, she has never been able to box up Elizabeth's clothes because doing so would mean that Elizabeth is really gone.

[mistagee]

Hmmm, I always wonder about eyewitness testimony. Some person mentioned that she was with an Asian man and that she kept her eyes down and wouldnt make eye contact. I always felt that this episode had nothing to do with the case. I wonder if her boyfriend was suspected, didnt he and she have an argument? If it is convenience store murder, then we have a serial killer on our hands, because several disappeared from Texas, one from missssipi and I believe other neigbhoring states. I think the with the advent of security cameras ( I cant believe stores didnt have them then) cell phones and the high price of gasoline that the serial killer may soon become a thing of the past. Theres so much surveillance now, that its hard to do anything without big brother watching :eek:

Sometimes we forget that many of the murderes committed, especially when they are by strangers are often by repeat offenders. The disappearance of two girls from Oklahoma's state fair in 1981 was done by someone who killed another girl in Wyoming. If you want to really delve into unsolved disapperacnes, check out the Charley Project, the best website out there in terms of the information it posts, the webmaster has done and continues to do an amazing job!

http://www.charleyproject.org

[nohwheregirl]

I think the with the advent of security cameras ( I cant believe stores didnt have them then) cell phones and the high price of gasoline that the serial killer may soon become a thing of the past. Theres so much surveillance now, that its hard to do anything without big brother watching :eek:


That's conditional on stores actually using high-quality surveillance equipment. It's not so ubiquitous that it's cheap enough for every business to use....and even if it were cheap, businesses will do anything to cut corners. Many stores have security cameras mounted that arent' attached to anything, or use such crappy equipment that it's useless.

[mistagee]

YEs, its a shame, but any store that is open and overnight or where the employee is left alone should have cameras, and it should be mandatory. Was she abducted in the store or on her way walking home? I still wonder if the bf had anything to do with it?

[rerungirl]

The syndicated tv show "Missing" mentioned Elizabeth's disappearance this weekend. This is such a puzzling case. She has been missing for 19 years now and would have tuned 40 last month.

[LooksLikeCRicci]

Wow. Amazing how time flies in these cases.

I was totally creeped out by the Update in this case. I know it was just a picture of her purse in Evidence... but it was still freaky.

[wiseguy182]

My gut feeling is that she was kidnapped, but I'm not ready to totally dismiss the boyfriend.

One thing that I thought was weird: Elizabeth calls Ricky to pick her up because she's scared. Ricky keeps balking at it, so she says "nevermind, I'll have my parents come pick me up." But instead of doing that, she continues on her way. I thought that was weird. If she was scared and wanted to be picked up, why did she continue on her way? I'm sure her parents would have picked her up.

But that the boyfriend didn't pick her up when she was scared sends up a red flag for me. And he did admit they had an argument.

[soilentgreen]

Her casefile on the Charley Project has information that wasn't on the U.M. segment. A clerk at the 7-11 where she called from saw her being dropped off by a man in a green gremlin, who was a Central Texas college student. Campbell's parents later contacted him; he said he saw her walking along the service road, offered her a ride, and dropped her off at the store in Copperas Cove (which was as far as he was going).

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/c/campbell_elizabeth.html

From what I recall of the UM segment, she mentioned to her boyfriend that she got a ride to the store and that she was scared. There's no mention if she ever attempted to call her family.

I'm curious about why this guy would claim to drop her off, 17 miles from her house, without making sure she had someone coming to pick her up. I've never felt the later sightings of the Asian girl were Elizabeth.

[porchlight]

Her casefile on the Charley Project has information that wasn't on the U.M. segment. A clerk at the 7-11 where she called from saw her being dropped off by a man in a green gremlin, who was a Central Texas college student. Campbell's parents later contacted him; he said he saw her walking along the service road, offered her a ride, and dropped her off at the store in Copperas Cove (which was as far as he was going).

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/c/campbell_elizabeth.html

From what I recall of the UM segment, she mentioned to her boyfriend that she got a ride to the store and that she was scared. There's no mention if she ever attempted to call her family.

I'm curious about why this guy would claim to drop her off, 17 miles from her house, without making sure she had someone coming to pick her up. I've never felt the later sightings of the Asian girl were Elizabeth.
Elizabeth's sister posts here http://z10.invisionfree.com/usedtobedoe/index.php?showtopic=8888
Her screenname is Moonbug.

Elizabeth's case was featured on the radio show Missing Pieces.
http://www.missingpieces.info/
18 September 2007, Episode 58

[sdb4884]

creepy update yes

[Apostapler]

Just FYI Ell from Porchlight International submitted a potential match to TX law enforcement:

http://z10.invisionfree.com/usedtobedoe/index.php?showtopic=57823

Missing:
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/113dftx.html

Potential:
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/78uftx.html


I think this is a very good potential match.

[kadrmas15]

While I possible, in fact I am even hoping you are right Apostapler, there are certain facts that argue against it. Elizabeth's purse was discovered in Crockett County, Texas along a frequently traveled interstate, Interstate 10, in the town of Ozona, Texas. Crockett County itself is a rural county, only about 4, 100 people total in that county. Crockett County is out in the west Texas desert. Ozona where the pursue was discovered is about 370 miles east of El Paso and about 200 miles west of San Antonio. It is about 100 miles south of the Odessa/Midland area and is about 70 miles north of the border with Mexico.

Anderson County, Texas which is where the mysterious body was found, is in a completely different part of the state. Anderson County, a county of about 55,000 residents is also rural although not nearly as much in the middle of nowhere as Crockett County is. Anderson County is roughly 500 miles north, northeast of Crockett County. Anderson County is about 100 miles east of Waco and about 110, 115 miles southeast of Dallas.

However I will say, the one interesting thing about your theory and the one thing that makes me thing it might be true is this. While the geographical instances are all over the map, there is one curious thing. Elizabeth's purse was discovered in Crockett County or in their Sheriff's Department in what 1988? The body in Anderson County was also found in 1988.

[soilentgreen]

The Charley Project states that the purse was turned in to the police in 1992. Doe network says that the purse was in good condition and had Campbell's SS card, drivers license and a credit card in it, which is rather surprising. Possibly the purse was found not too long after it had been dumped.

[Corky Kneivel]

Thank you for the link to the missing pieces audio. I have downloaded and listened to 10 episodes since yesterday.

[Apostapler]

While I possible, in fact I am even hoping you are right Apostapler, there are certain facts that argue against it. Elizabeth's purse was discovered in Crockett County, Texas along a frequently traveled interstate, Interstate 10, in the town of Ozona, Texas. Crockett County itself is a rural county, only about 4, 100 people total in that county. Crockett County is out in the west Texas desert. Ozona where the pursue was discovered is about 370 miles east of El Paso and about 200 miles west of San Antonio. It is about 100 miles south of the Odessa/Midland area and is about 70 miles north of the border with Mexico.

Anderson County, Texas which is where the mysterious body was found, is in a completely different part of the state. Anderson County, a county of about 55,000 residents is also rural although not nearly as much in the middle of nowhere as Crockett County is. Anderson County is roughly 500 miles north, northeast of Crockett County. Anderson County is about 100 miles east of Waco and about 110, 115 miles southeast of Dallas.

However I will say, the one interesting thing about your theory and the one thing that makes me thing it might be true is this. While the geographical instances are all over the map, there is one curious thing. Elizabeth's purse was discovered in Crockett County or in their Sheriff's Department in what 1988? The body in Anderson County was also found in 1988.

Well sure. Lots of times there are facts that don't jive with the matches, but the important thing is its a new lead for investigators. They can take both case files, compare and contrast, then decide if there is enough evidence to warrant further comparison (dental, dna, etc.). I always like reading your interpretations.

[sdb4884]

A bit stupid of her to walk off into the night like that.

[tiddlywinks950]

A bit stupid of her to walk off into the night like that.

I know that may seem stupid at first glance. But I can kind of understand why she did it. Sometimes, you can get so angry with someone that rational thought escapes you and you just walk away. Of course, there are other ways to deal with your anger, but I can understand why she did it.

[tiddlywinks950]

I think she was definately abducted and forced into prostitution. Unfortunately, AIDS is very prevalent among prostitutes. I wouldn't be surprised if she were living with HIV/AIDS or died from it.

[porchlight]

Thank you for the link to the missing pieces audio. I have downloaded and listened to 10 episodes since yesterday.
You are most welcome. Todd Matthews has had some very interesting guests.

[sdb4884]

I reckon that the eye witness accounts were mistaken, happens a lot in UM doesn't it ?

[lilmissd]

I agree with tiddlywinks, I too believe she was abudcted for a sex slave/prostitution ring. I think that would be a good explanation for the stuff found in her purse. She wouldn't need money or an identity if someone else was providing her with money, clothes, food, etc. And in instances like that your just a meal ticket or dollar signs to people who run those organizations until you get too old to make them any money anymore, then they can either just let you go with threats or kill you, and it doesn't even matter to them. I hope that she'll be found alive someday, but I definitely have a bad feeling!

[tiddlywinks950]

I wouldn't be surprised if she were in a shelter somewhere and she has no idea who she is because she has been robbed of her identity. She would be 43 today; she could very well still be involved in prostitution or she could have been sold as a bride.

I can't even imagine what things must be like for her family. It's been almost 22 years since they last saw her. I wouldn't know what thought would be more comforting; on one hand, she could be alive but forced into having sex with strangers and/or being beaten and raped by a pimp, or she could have been murdered the day she vanished, but at least she is in Heaven. My prayers are with the Campbells.

[Apostapler]

Here's an idea: what if the items taken from the purse are an indication of a murder? I'm talking serial killer. Missing from her purse were personal items: hairbrush, lipstick, keys, that could have been taken as mementos of the crime. What was left behind was evidence that could tie the killer to the victim: her ID, social security card, credit card. If you're a serial killer you don't use the victim's credit card or sell it, you get rid of it so you can keep killing without being caught.

If she were sold into a prostitution ring of some sort, that credit card would have been used up pronto.

[Wamisto]

The Charley Project states that the purse was turned in to the police in 1992. Doe network says that the purse was in good condition and had Campbell's SS card, drivers license and a credit card in it, which is rather surprising. Possibly the purse was found not too long after it had been dumped.

Actually, the UM segment says the purse was found by the investigators in the case in 1992 in the evidence room of another police department in another part of Texas. The segment says the purse had been there since shortly after Elizabeth disappeared - so it must have been turned in right away.

[soilentgreen]

Actually, the UM segment says the purse was found by the investigators in the case in 1992 in the evidence room of another police department in another part of Texas. The segment says the purse had been there since shortly after Elizabeth disappeared - so it must have been turned in right away.

Yeah, there are minor discrepancies on the sites as to the details of when and how the purse was found. From the Doe Network:

Elizabeth's purse was later found and turned into the Crockett County Sheriff in Ozona, Texas off I-10. Employees could not recall when the purse was brought to the office in Ozona, 225 miles west of San Antonio. The purse, in good condition, apparently had been in the Sheriff's Department property room for years, unnoticed and unexamined.

Missing from her purse were personal items: hairbrush, lipstick, keys, that could have been taken as mementos of the crime. What was left behind was evidence that could tie the killer to the victim: her ID, social security card, credit card.

I've always thought that indicated a more personal crime as well. I see this as less of a kidnapping/trafficking and more likely an abduction/homicide from the store. I'm curious if the police ever investigated the guy with the green gremlin that claimed to have dropped her off.

[porchlight]

http://z13.invisionfree.com/PorchlightUSA/index.php?showtopic=11174
some good photos here

[Coffeeface]

This story probably is more simple than we would like to think. I think she was abducted and who knows what.

I read online somewhere that her mother had a dream that her daughter was abducted and hit on the head and lost her memory and did not remember who she was.
I also read that the authorities were not very helpful in the beginning. I would be infuriated as a mother.

As for the sightings, I just don't know. It's a toss up.

[SageSlowdive]

I think she was abducted, and probably killed soon after that.

Sometimes these "forced into prostitution" theories don't hold up once you look at all the evidence.

[biscuitgirl]

I think she was abducted, and probably killed soon after that.

Sometimes these "forced into prostitution" theories don't hold up once you look at all the evidence.

Yeah, I'll have to agree with this. Unfortunately, we all know how reliable eyewitness sightings are. The "asian" woman could have been anyone. I find it sad that after 20 years, they still don't have a body to lay to rest.

[mattc]

This is a really good link to the case. It's heartbreaking to think that her parents are in bad health and still hoping that they can find out what happened to their daughter. God bless them!

http://blogs.discovery.com/criminal_report/2010/03/elizabeth-ann-campbell.html

Also, the article mentions a few facts that were confusing on UM; for example, she didn't just walk away after saying she was going to call her parents, she tried to call her brother. The police also did find eye witnesses who confirmed that she had been at the 7-11 on the pay phone.

I tend to discount the eye-witness accounts here as well. I know this is a huge generalization, but in small, rural towns, it might be easy for people who don't see many minorities to mistake an Asian woman for another. In other words, the cashiers saw an Asian couple in their store, then Elizabeth Campbell's mother comes and shows them a photo of her daughter and they assume it was the Asian woman in their store before. I could be wrong, and mean no offense, it was just one of my first thoughts.

I think the key to solving this case is to look at other missing persons cases at this time and in the area, and see if their is a connection, b/c I feel that this is a serial killer type thing too.

[cocytus]

Unfortunately, I believe that this was a "crime of opportunity" by a serial killer or a rapist that went too far.The prostitution angle is ridiculous,IMHO, in that it just doesn't "jibe" w/ the way prostitution rings work.

The majority of prostitution rings want naive girls from rural areas that are easier to control. They don't want intelligent women as they would be able to "escape" that are harder to control and would be believable witnesses in case of prosecution.

Also, not wanting to bring race into it, but Elizabeth is a biracial Asian/Caucasian woman. The majority of her friends and acquaintances would probably be Caucasians not Asians and her "attitudes" wouldn't the type of attitudes that men seeking out Asian prostitutes would "desire." That would limit her "value" to any pimp or sex trade group.

I think that this case will only be solved by a confession or the discovery of a body.

[TheCars1986]

The fact that her purse was found four years later seems more like an abduction/murder to me. It seems like whoever abducted her kept certain contents from the purse as a "memento" of her, and then ditched the purse with the intention of it being found and identified as Elizabeth's (hence why her license and other forms of ID were left in the purse). I never bought the whole prostitution/mean pissed off Asian guy eyewitness sightings. If she were really being held against her will, do you think her "handler" would take her out in public to eat ice cream? She would have the perfect opportunity to scream and yell for help in the store with a minimum threat of reprocussions, and I'm sure someone would have called the police or came to her aid. That's why I've always found the mysterious Asian couple sightings as nothing more than a controlling ******* and his girlfriend.

[porcella]

I believe I've only seen this segment once, so I was looking at Elizabeth's Charley Project page to refresh my memory. I was a little freaked out to note that the age-progression looks a lot like...me. I'm too young to be Elizabeth, but yikes. I'm also biracial Caucasian-Korean, for what it's worth.

[TracyLynnS]

I believe I've only seen this segment once, so I was looking at Elizabeth's Charley Project page to refresh my memory. I was a little freaked out to note that the age-progression looks a lot like...me. I'm too young to be Elizabeth, but yikes. I'm also biracial Caucasian-Korean, for what it's worth.

Yikes! That must have been a creepy moment! :eek:

[egswanso]

I tend to discount the eye-witness accounts here as well. I know this is a huge generalization, but in small, rural towns, it might be easy for people who don't see many minorities to mistake an Asian woman for another. In other words, the cashiers saw an Asian couple in their store, then Elizabeth Campbell's mother comes and shows them a photo of her daughter and they assume it was the Asian woman in their store before. I could be wrong, and mean no offense, it was just one of my first thoughts.

I thought this of the eyewitness accounts as well. It's a documented fact that cross-racial identification is even weaker then intra-racial identification and eyewitness accounts are problematic in the first place.

I suspect poor Elizabeth was abducted and murdered.

[sdb4884]

The purse incident could have changed this whole case but police incompetence has probably sealed shut any chance of anyone knowing what happened to poor Elizabeth.

[TheCars1986]

Yet another unfortunate case of a woman, being alone and at the wrong place at the wrong time, IMO. Probably abducted by a pyscho and killed. No way the abduction and being held against her will theory is plausible. After all of these years and she has still yet to come forward? Especially since she went missing as an adult she would have came forward by now. Unless her body is found or there's a confession of some sort, I doubt if this one will ever be solved.

[Clockworkhigh]

Hmmm, I always wonder about eyewitness testimony. Some person mentioned that she was with an Asian man and that she kept her eyes down and wouldnt make eye contact. I always felt that this episode had nothing to do with the case. I wonder if her boyfriend was suspected, didnt he and she have an argument? If it is convenience store murder, then we have a serial killer on our hands, because several disappeared from Texas, one from missssipi and I believe other neigbhoring states. I think the with the advent of security cameras ( I cant believe stores didnt have them then) cell phones and the high price of gasoline that the serial killer may soon become a thing of the past. Theres so much surveillance now, that its hard to do anything without big brother watching :eek:



Not me. If there is a case where I would bet the mortgage on my house that the eyewitnesses are telling the truth it would be this one. Both had the exact same description of her and the suspect. She didn't look any of them in the eye. She didn't talk. Both said that he held her above the wrist. I mean BOTH of them said the same thing and I am assuming these eyewitnesses didn't even know each other. It would be rather unusual to see a man guiding a meek woman into a store as if he is scolding a child. I am pretty sure I would remember that rather accurately too.

Sad to say, but the truth is she probably was forced into prostitution. Maybe overseas who knows. It just seems to have the earmarks of it. The boyfriend was almost immediately cleared. Call it the "Rob Shaver" syndrome. He was the last to talk to her and probably was filled with guilt.

[Clockworkhigh]

I thought this of the eyewitness accounts as well. It's a documented fact that cross-racial identification is even weaker then intra-racial identification and eyewitness accounts are problematic in the first place.

I suspect poor Elizabeth was abducted and murdered.

You don't find it credible considering that two witnesses described the EXACT same body language and description? No, there wouldn't be a lot of Asians in Texas but if anything wouldn't you take note a little closer when one does come into your store? Plus the bizarre behaviour of Elizabeth and the man would mean they would stand out from your average customer

[cocytus]

You don't find it credible considering that two witnesses described the EXACT same body language and description? No, there wouldn't be a lot of Asians in Texas but if anything wouldn't you take note a little closer when one does come into your store? Plus the bizarre behaviour of Elizabeth and the man would mean they would stand out from your average customer

There are quite a few Asians in Texas. Dallas, Houston, San Antonio and Austin all have substantial Asian populations. If you meant people of East Asian descent, then you are correct. There aren't too many people like that in central Texas, although Killeen and Waco have significant Asian populations due to the presence nearby of Fort Hood.

It's unlikely that the eyewitnesses actually saw Ms. Campbell. Most eyewitness identifications are mistaken and cross-racial identifications have an extremely high rate of errors. W/O any photographic or video evidence, we'll probably never know for certain who they saw.

[Clockworkhigh]

It's unlikely that the eyewitnesses actually saw Ms. Campbell. Most eyewitness identifications are mistaken and cross-racial identifications have an extremely high rate of errors. W/O any photographic or video evidence, we'll probably never know for certain who they saw.

You're dismissing that based on the assumption that it is unlikely for a white person to be able to pick out a minority from a lineup?

Unless these two witnesses commiserated with each other before the segment (I doubt it since they didn't live in the same town) how do you explain the eery resemblances of the body language and descriptions?

[cocytus]

You're dismissing that based on the assumption that it is unlikely for a white person to be able to pick out a minority from a lineup?

Unless these two witnesses commiserated with each other before the segment (I doubt it since they didn't live in the same town) how do you explain the eery resemblances of the body language and descriptions?

Not at all. But unless these people knew a number of Asians personally or were "experts" at recognizing people of East Asian descent, it's highly unlikely that they would recognize Ms. Campbell from a single brief viewing.

There would be no reason for the two people to commiserate; they may both have seen the same Asian couple. As both of the sightings were in places near or just off of well-traveled highways, while it's certainly unusual, it's not improbable. And if the first sighting was reported in the media in the same manner as it was on the UM segment, there always the possibility that the second sighting may not have been a "true" sighting, but a conflation of several events. Or just not factual.

[Clockworkhigh]

Not at all. But unless these people knew a number of Asians personally or were "experts" at recognizing people of East Asian descent, it's highly unlikely that they would recognize Ms. Campbell from a single brief viewing.

There would be no reason for the two people to commiserate; they may both have seen the same Asian couple. As both of the sightings were in places near or just off of well-traveled highways, while it's certainly unusual, it's not improbable. And if the first sighting was reported in the media in the same manner as it was on the UM segment, there always the possibility that the second sighting may not have been a "true" sighting, but a conflation of several events. Or just not factual.

I don't know, regardless of skin colour you're recognizing a human being first and foremost. Asians still have facial features and so on. Didn't one of the three eyewitnesses say that the girl in the sighting had the exact same crooked tooth as Elizabeth? That's pretty precise. The older man seemed genuine for the reason that he recognized her right away when he saw the picture and could describe the circumstances. I know that you can be 100% genuine and still 100% wrong (Carrie Nixon) but the details were staggering in this case I thought.

Either way there are doubts Elizabeth is alive now anyway.

[cocytus]

I don't know, regardless of skin colour you're recognizing a human being first and foremost. Asians still have facial features and so on. Didn't one of the three eyewitnesses say that the girl in the sighting had the exact same crooked tooth as Elizabeth? That's pretty precise. The older man seemed genuine for the reason that he recognized her right away when he saw the picture and could describe the circumstances. I know that you can be 100% genuine and still 100% wrong (Carrie Nixon) but the details were staggering in this case I thought.

Either way there are doubts Elizabeth is alive now anyway.

I actually don't know Ms. Campbell's skin color as she was/is biracial White-Asian. That means her skin coloration could be anywhere from very fair to slightly brown. I'm merely stating a scientifically tested theory: That cross racial identifications are usually incorrect,especially when the person isn't already known or when the person doesn't know many (or any) people of the race.

Here are two examples of studies:

http://academic.udayton.edu/race/03justice/justice03.htm

http://www18.homepage.villanova.edu/diego.fernandezduque/Teaching/CognitivePsychology/Lectures_and_Labs/s2objectRecognition/sAppliedCog/crossrace_identification.htm

[Clockworkhigh]

I actually don't know Ms. Campbell's skin color as she was/is biracial White-Asian. That means her skin coloration could be anywhere from very fair to slightly brown. I'm merely stating a scientifically tested theory: That cross racial identifications are usually incorrect,especially when the person isn't already known or when the person doesn't know many (or any) people of the race.

Here are two examples of studies:

http://academic.udayton.edu/race/03justice/justice03.htm

http://www18.homepage.villanova.edu/diego.fernandezduque/Teaching/CognitivePsychology/Lectures_and_Labs/s2objectRecognition/sAppliedCog/crossrace_identification.htm

Sure it can happen. But three precise descriptions coupled with the same body language is enough to convince me. For the record, Elizabeth was part oriental/white since her father was white. And do we really know how many Asians the three eyewitnesses are familiar with? No.

[cocytus]

Sure it can happen. But three precise descriptions coupled with the same body language is enough to convince me. For the record, Elizabeth was part oriental/white since her father was white. And do we really know how many Asians the three eyewitnesses are familiar with? No.

Ummm...who was the "for the record" comment directed at? I believe that I pointed that Ms. Campbell was/is "biracial White-Asian." "Oriental" is actually a direction, not a description of someone's racial/ethnic makeup.

And since all three of people lived in an area where there aren't many East Asians or people w/ East Asian heritage, I would feel confident assuming that they knew few, if any, East Asians personally.

[egswanso]

You don't find it credible considering that two witnesses described the EXACT same body language and description? No, there wouldn't be a lot of Asians in Texas but if anything wouldn't you take note a little closer when one does come into your store? Plus the bizarre behaviour of Elizabeth and the man would mean they would stand out from your average customer

I believe the witnesses saw a submissive Asian woman, maybe, but not necessarily, the same submissive Asian woman. That doesn't make it Elizabeth Campbell.

[MegtheEgg86]

"Oriental" is actually a direction, not a description of someone's racial/ethnic makeup.

Thank you. Indeed, not only is oriental incorrect in that usage, but is widely considered offensive.

[Clockworkhigh]

Ummm...who was the "for the record" comment directed at? I believe that I pointed that Ms. Campbell was/is "biracial White-Asian." "Oriental" is actually a direction, not a description of someone's racial/ethnic makeup.

And since all three of people lived in an area where there aren't many East Asians or people w/ East Asian heritage, I would feel confident assuming that they knew few, if any, East Asians personally.

Oriental........you know what I meant, but anyway.

Maybe they did know very few Asians personally, but doesn't that help the case? Go to specific parts of Toronto and ask a clerk how many Asians they see during the day. I'd have a hard time believing that a clerk would be able to pick out Elizabeth jogging back a few days even if he himself was Asian! So wouldn't it make more sense if a clerk saw very few, if any, Asians? I think it would, which is why the eyewitnesses seemed so sure about it. You are right, they probably don't see a lot of them in Texas, but I think that helps the cause, not hurts it.

[cocytus]

Oriental........you know what I meant, but anyway.

Maybe they did know very few Asians personally, but doesn't that help the case? Go to specific parts of Toronto and ask a clerk how many Asians they see during the day. I'd have a hard time believing that a clerk would be able to pick out Elizabeth jogging back a few days even if he himself was Asian! So wouldn't it make more sense if a clerk saw very few, if any, Asians? I think it would, which is why the eyewitnesses seemed so sure about it. You are right, they probably don't see a lot of them in Texas, but I think that helps the cause, not hurts it.

How did I "know what you meant?" The term "oriental" is not accurate and as MegtheEgg pointed out could be seen by some as being offensive.

Anyway. No, it doesn't help the case. If you rarely see Asians and don't know any personally, you are inclined to make a mistake when trying to identify a person of that racial/ethnic origin. I think that the people that claimed to have seen Ms. Campbell were sincerely convinced that they had seen her. However, if they knew few Asians personally, they could easily misidentify a person they didn't know.

[Clockworkhigh]

How did I "know what you meant?" The term "oriental" is not accurate and as MegtheEgg pointed out could be seen by some as being offensive.

Anyway. No, it doesn't help the case. If you rarely see Asians and don't know any personally, you are inclined to make a mistake when trying to identify a person of that racial/ethnic origin. I think that the people that claimed to have seen Ms. Campbell were sincerely convinced that they had seen her. However, if they knew few Asians personally, they could easily misidentify a person they didn't know.

Sorry, I just think you're grasping at straws here. If you don't buy the eyewitness accounts then so be it, but that's a weak excuse at best. Even if there aren't many Asians in Texas the truth is they aren't from another planet and the witnesses weren't exactly 5 years old. If you were in the streets of, oh I don't know, Tokyo you would stand out as a white person. If anything I believe an eyewitness sighting would be more credible since you'd probably take notice if a white person entered your store. Ditto for an Asian in Texas.

Both clerks felt something was amiss. Both described the exact same scenario and the truth is even an abductor has to fill up his tank at some time so you know the guy went to a gas station and probably didn't want to leave her in there alone.

I am white. I am trying to predict how I would describe an Asian. The truth is it wouldn't be all that different from describing a white person. Asians are still either fat or skinny, tall or short, crooked or straight teeth, long or short hair, different noses, different eyes, tatoos or not, you get the point.

[cocytus]

Sorry, I just think you're grasping at straws here. If you don't buy the eyewitness accounts then so be it, but that's a weak excuse at best. Even if there aren't many Asians in Texas the truth is they aren't from another planet and the witnesses weren't exactly 5 years old. If you were in the streets of, oh I don't know, Tokyo you would stand out as a white person. If anything I believe an eyewitness sighting would be more credible since you'd probably take notice if a white person entered your store. Ditto for an Asian in Texas.

Both clerks felt something was amiss. Both described the exact same scenario and the truth is even an abductor has to fill up his tank at some time so you know the guy went to a gas station and probably didn't want to leave her in there alone.

I am white. I am trying to predict how I would describe an Asian. The truth is it wouldn't be all that different from describing a white person. Asians are still either fat or skinny, tall or short, crooked or straight teeth, long or short hair, different noses, different eyes, tatoos or not, you get the point.

Tell you what, which is more likely: Three different people saw something they thought was suspicious and then saw a poster w/ an Asian woman on it and put things together mistakenly after a brief encounter?

Or three different people saw something they thought was suspicious, then later saw a poster of a missing Asian woman on it and were able to correctly identify the person, even after a brief encounter?

I'm not the one that did the studies that show cross-racial identifications are usually wrong; scientists using double-blind testing and empirical data, did. Since they are studying things like this for a living, I'm going to bow to their expertise.

[TheCars1986]

Tell you what, which is more likely: Three different people saw something they thought was suspicious and then saw a poster w/ an Asian woman on it and put things together mistakenly after a brief encounter?

Or three different people saw something they thought was suspicious, then later saw a poster of a missing Asian woman on it and were able to correctly identify the person, even after a brief encounter?

I'm not the one that did the studies that show cross-racial identifications are usually wrong; scientists using double-blind testing and empirical data, did. Since they are studying things like this for a living, I'm going to bow to their expertise.

If this lady really where Elizabeth Campbell, why would her captors risk being caught seen with her out in public buying ice cream? And why didn't she attempt to get help in any way?

[Clockworkhigh]

If this lady really where Elizabeth Campbell, why would her captors risk being caught seen with her out in public buying ice cream? And why didn't she attempt to get help in any way?

Out of fear. It isn't the first time nor the last time this happened. Remember Elizabeth Smart? She was at a PARTY with her filthy captors and still didn't say anything, thank God she is alive though

[Clockworkhigh]

Tell you what, which is more likely: Three different people saw something they thought was suspicious and then saw a poster w/ an Asian woman on it and put things together mistakenly after a brief encounter?

Or three different people saw something they thought was suspicious, then later saw a poster of a missing Asian woman on it and were able to correctly identify the person, even after a brief encounter?

I'm not the one that did the studies that show cross-racial identifications are usually wrong; scientists using double-blind testing and empirical data, did. Since they are studying things like this for a living, I'm going to bow to their expertise.

Well for starters I guarantee there was more eyewitness accounts than that which the cops either didn't believe or UM didn't get into. I hear what you are saying, and no doubt there are people who would make that grave mistake and not to knock that study but somewhere along the way there has to be SOME people who are correct about it.

I'll stand by my original thought that the descriptions and the attention to detail in the encounters speak for themselves..........in my opinion.

[cocytus]

Well for starters I guarantee there was more eyewitness accounts than that which the cops either didn't believe or UM didn't get into. I hear what you are saying, and no doubt there are people who would make that grave mistake and not to knock that study but somewhere along the way there has to be SOME people who are correct about it.

I'll stand by my original thought that the descriptions and the attention to detail in the encounters speak for themselves..........in my opinion.

If you want to believe that, it's your right. Personally, I believe that memories are very fluid and often "colored" by the person's perception of the event. The three people saw the Asian couple and thought that the woman was acting submissive. Perhaps they were attempting to place their cultural perspective on those people's actions. That's a daily occurrence.

I also know that people's memories aren't like audio/video recorders. They don't capture exactly what happened. At best, they capture the highlighted portions in a manner that the person who has the memories remembers. At worst, they become conflations of true images, perceptions, false memories and time distortions and are by this become largely useless.

That could have been Ms. Campbell. Frankly, I don't think it was, as Ms. Campbell was an intelligent woman that could speak English. It's highly unlikely that her captors (if there were captors) would bring her out in public as there were numerous posters of her around and some pretty heavy news coverage. There was also the very good chance that they could be stopped by the police or that Ms. Campbell could have escaped.

The chances of being caught or Ms. Campbell escaping were too great to risk letting her out in public. Also, those risks would have extended into the area of keeping her alive for an extended period,as well, unfortunately.

[egswanso]

If you want to believe that, it's your right. Personally, I believe that memories are very fluid and often "colored" by the person's perception of the event. The three people saw the Asian couple and thought that the woman was acting submissive. Perhaps they were attempting to place their cultural perspective on those people's actions. That's a daily occurrence.

I also know that people's memories aren't like audio/video recorders. They don't capture exactly what happened. At best, they capture the highlighted portions in a manner that the person who has the memories remembers. At worst, they become conflations of true images, perceptions, false memories and time distortions and are by this become largely useless.

That could have been Ms. Campbell. Frankly, I don't think it was, as Ms. Campbell was an intelligent woman that could speak English. It's highly unlikely that her captors (if there were captors) would bring her out in public as there were numerous posters of her around and some pretty heavy news coverage. There was also the very good chance that they could be stopped by the police or that Ms. Campbell could have escaped.

The chances of being caught or Ms. Campbell escaping were too great to risk letting her out in public. Also, those risks would have extended into the area of keeping her alive for an extended period,as well, unfortunately.

Building on what you say, which I agree with, is the fact that Elizabeth Campbell was a Texan - she might have been of partial Asian descent ethnically, but it seems clear she was 100% Texan culturally - this would seem to make her a poor choice for an Asian gang to kidnap and turn into a submissive Asian sex slave.

[SageSlowdive]

As soon as I saw the update about her purse, I knew she was probably abducted and murdered. Again, someone who kidnaps someone isn't going to take them out in public and flash them around - unless they are really stupid. Remember with Elizabeth Smart, they had her covered in a wrap.

[Clockworkhigh]

As soon as I saw the update about her purse, I knew she was probably abducted and murdered. Again, someone who kidnaps someone isn't going to take them out in public and flash them around - unless they are really stupid. Remember with Elizabeth Smart, they had her covered in a wrap.

But all it would take would have been a tug on someone's shoulder followed with the words: "I've been kidnapped". I'm just saying, it's happened before

[Clockworkhigh]

Building on what you say, which I agree with, is the fact that Elizabeth Campbell was a Texan - she might have been of partial Asian descent ethnically, but it seems clear she was 100% Texan culturally - this would seem to make her a poor choice for an Asian gang to kidnap and turn into a submissive Asian sex slave.

Maybe so but would it matter when there is a gun to your head? Did Amy Billig seem like the type of girl that would fit in with filthy bikers? Doubt it.

[egswanso]

Maybe so but would it matter when there is a gun to your head? Did Amy Billig seem like the type of girl that would fit in with filthy bikers? Doubt it.

It's highly debatable the whole Amy Billig biker story is true.

Most women I know would fight back, even at the cost of their lives. You are likely to die anyway, might as well go down fighting.

[SageSlowdive]

But all it would take would have been a tug on someone's shoulder followed with the words: "I've been kidnapped". I'm just saying, it's happened before

I know, but think of all he consequences IF she was really alive and was really seen: they could have easily said she was mentally incompetent or something to that effect.

[TheCars1986]

Honestly, how likely is it that Elizabeth is still alive? For those who believe Elizabeth is alive they must accept these facts: for the past 20 years Elizabeth has been taken out in public without signaling for help, almost certainly had at least one opportunity to use a phone, and has never been seen since the airing of the UM segment. That's a pretty big stretch, IMHO.

[Opal]

You don't find it credible considering that two witnesses described the EXACT same body language and description? No, there wouldn't be a lot of Asians in Texas but if anything wouldn't you take note a little closer when one does come into your store? Plus the bizarre behaviour of Elizabeth and the man would mean they would stand out from your average customer

I also don't feel the eyewitness accounts are totally bogus. It's possible the Asian woman wasn't Elizabeth, of course, but I don't think people should totally discredit them.
And there's actually a large population of Asians in Texas - at least in the major cities (and their outlying areas). I believe even in the late '80s this was true. But, yeah, maybe in the rural areas it was rare to see someone of Asian decent.
People also say that if the woman reported to be Elizabeth was in fact her, it was foolish of her abductor to bring her inside those convenient stores. But it's quite possible he was carrying a weapon (gun, knife) and threatened to kill her or others if she blabbed.

[Clockworkhigh]

I also don't feel the eyewitness accounts are totally bogus. It's possible the Asian woman wasn't Elizabeth, of course, but I don't think people should totally discredit them.
And there's actually a large population of Asians in Texas - at least in the major cities (and their outlying areas). I believe even in the late '80s this was true. But, yeah, maybe in the rural areas it was rare to see someone of Asian decent.
People also say that if the woman reported to be Elizabeth was in fact her, it was foolish of her abductor to bring her inside those convenient stores. But it's quite possible he was carrying a weapon (gun, knife) and threatened to kill her or others if she blabbed.

Exactly. A gun in the guy's jacket pocket would change everything. I'm not sure anyone here has actually had a gun pointed at them. When/if it ever happens don't be surprised if you curl up into a ball.

I do think she is alive, but believe those eyewitness sightings were true. What can I say? The abductor was ballsy in my mind.

[sdb4884]

This case is quite similar to the Karl Lynn Nixon case, girl disappears shortly after been last seen at night, plenty of supposed sightings. I believe the end result was the same, that the sightings were not of her and that she was murdered shortly after being abducted. Take the majority of eye witness accounts with a grain of salt I say.

[MegtheEgg86]

I believe the end result was the same, that the sightings were not of her and that she was murdered shortly after being abducted.

I too think that may be the case as well, unfortunately. Poor Elizabeth. :(

[TheCars1986]

This case is quite similar to the Karl Lynn Nixon case, girl disappears shortly after been last seen at night, plenty of supposed sightings. I believe the end result was the same, that the sightings were not of her and that she was murdered shortly after being abducted. Take the majority of eye witness accounts with a grain of salt I say.

That lady who allegedly talked to Kerri Lynn Nixon in South Carolina was certain it was her and even urged her on camera to come home. She even stated the girl she saw said her name was Kerri Lynn Nixon and she could never forget it because it was such a "pretty name". Turns out that Kerri was killed shortly after being abducted the same night she disappeared. So eyewitnesses who claim to have seen people (especially children) hundreds of miles away from where they were last seen have to be taken with a grain of salt.