JonBenet Ramsey

[crystaldawn]

I just heard that her mother Patsy has died of cancer. :(

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/sns-ap-obit-patsy-ramsey,1,2544878.story?coll=chi-news-hed

Its so sad that she went to her grave not knowing who killed her daughter. I never thought the parents were responsible. For those of you who don't know it UM actually did profile this case but unexplicably Lifetime never airs it. I think they should since its still unsolved.

[mystery_daisy]

That is very sad that Patsy Ramsey died.
I think this was an inside job. The facts of the case are just too bizarre for me to believe some stranger came in, tied up little Jon Benet, left a ransome note, and then killed her.
It took the parents 8 hours to find the dead girl in the home, once they knew she was missing! It doesn't add up for me. I think the fact that this was an affluent family had a lot to do with why no one has been punished for this crime. Again, it's sad to hear the news, though. It's always sad when someone dies, especially a child.

[Gangreen]

does anyone remember the special they did around 96-99?

[studster147]

i reckon the reason they havent repeated the episode (though ive never seen it) is that since it was made, evidence has come to light to suggest that someone outside the family (ie not the Ramseys) COULD have been responsible...at the time the segment was made, i suspect the prevailing view was that the Ramseys were the prime suspects, and that the segment is probably now considered "out of date" in light of subsequent developments....

i still have very great doubts as to whether the Ramseys were "innocent", though ive never believed it was murder, rather an accidental death that was subsequently covered up....

[wiseguy182]

I would have to lean more towards the Ramseys being innocent. While there are some actions of John and Patsy that seemed a bit suspect, I don't think they would have killed their daughter. There just doesn't appear to be a motive, and there's nothing in their background to suggest they were abusive or had mental disorders. I epsecially don't think they would have done it on Christmas, after having celebrated the holidays all day with her. (plus they had plans to do a bunch of traveling and getting together with more relatives in the weeks following Christmas) If one or both of them were guilty, I would speculate it was accidental as opposed to premeditated. There was the whole bedwetting theory about Patsy going berzerk after finding out JonBenet wet the bed, but that seems absurd. Why would Patsy get that fired up on a holiday? Plus, John had already lost a daughter and Patsy was recovering from Stage 4 terminal cancer (although it came back and claimed her life yesterday), which for me makes it all the more unlikely that they would have killed her. I'm kind of going by memory here as it's been awhile since I've followed the case, so things might be a tad fuzzy.

I read the book that John and Patsy put out right about the time it came out, which was 1999 If I'm not mistaken. There are a couple of actions of theirs that I don't quite get. Patsy makes mention of their son Burke somehow acquiring a knife and said that he could have gotten it from anywhere in the house. Well if I had a young son I would make sure any knives I had in the house were locked up or put out of his reach. Also, John speculated that he thought whoever did it got in the house through a window John himself had broken when he locked himself out of the house one day and forgot to have it replaced. If I lived in a city as big as Boulder, Colorado I would have made darn certain that window was replaced the same day. Still, all in all, I just don't think the Ramseys did it.

I don't recall seeing the actual UM segment, although I have seen plenty of coverage on it on television, possibly a Dateline or something of that nature.

[Kane]

does anyone remember the special they did around 96-99?

Yes. UM aired it just a month after the murder.

[crystaldawn]

I agree with you wiseguy and think the parents weren't responsible. I don't buy that they accidentally killed her either. They were very doting parents and its ridiculous to think she would kill her because she wet the bed. CBS did a very interesting documentary on her case last year and said there was dna at the crime scene (in the basement) and it ruled out the parents. They were going to put it in a national database to see if they could get a match. I think it would have been easy for someone to carry a sleeping JonBenet to the basement which is where the assault took place. Within a 2 mile radius of the Ramsey's home there were 38 registered sex offenders at the time of the crime. Not to mention in the months preceeding the murder there were 100 burglaries in their neighborhood. I do think the perpetrator at least knew John Ramsey in some capacity (whether it be personally or had just heard of him) as the ranson note the amount requested was for an odd amount of $118,000 which was the amount of John Ramsey's Christmas bonus that year.

[UMLongtimefan]

Such a sad sad case, the Ramsey's were devestated emotionally,physically and financially by this case.

Obviously the intial surge of the media who were looking for anything OJ like to grasp onto at the time, tried to do everything to convince us that the Ramsey's were some how guilty in this crime, sorry tv people life is not a tv season and you can't wrap it all up by the end of the show.

The more recent reviews of this case, starting with the Court TV special where the DA/Special Detective that was brought in from another city was the first one to me that pointed out that the Ramseys probably are innoncent. The detective who wanted to find evidence of the Ramseys guilt went through the crime scene photos and showed examples where it looks like an intruder may have indeed been in house. He walked away from the case convinced that they were not guilty.

The CBS special went even further with possible perps, including a case where an older child was attacked in her own home with her mother sleeping near by in the Boulder area.

Also the fact that some unkown males dna was found on the body have convinced me that this was a horribly botched investigation and the chances that the Ramsey's are guilty are about as high as the probability that unicorns are real.

[studster147]

The notion that DNA evidence is foolproof is misguided...plenty of cases have shown it to be more than fallible....i dont think the Ramseys did themselves any favours by hiring themelves a lawyer before the crime had even been investigated...an odd thing to do when you are inncoent, presumably devastated at the shocking death of your daughter, and presumably hell bent on finding the killer....

the question remains why any kidknapper who planned to extract a ransom then killed the girl and dumped her body in the basement having planted the ramson note....and how all of that could have happened without the Ramseys having been alerted to it....

as for the 118,000 pound ransom demand....well, you could surmise that it was someone who knew what bonus he got (hardly likely though, if you assume a sex offender was involved, and if it was a sex crime, where does the ransom come in anyway) or you could surmise that Mr Ramsey ,who obviously knew what bonus he got, wanted people to think that..

all in all, i think the chances of family involvement are some way greater than the existence of unicorns...

[ddelta]

I have read two books on this case (both of them not taking either side) and have some really hard questions that need to be answered before I can clear the parents of any wrong doing. Right now i lean towards it being an accident (either they killed their daughter or someone they know did (i.e. Burke) and are covering up for them).

The reasons i think this is that:

1. The ramson note was (i think) three pages long and it has been determined it was written on a pad taken from inside the house. Who would commit a murder (or sit around waiting for them to come home) and write out a ransom note if they killed (or were going to kill) the young girl? That never added up for me.

2. The ramson note contained the amount of John Ramseys Christmas bonus. That would mean this could not be some random sexual offender. It was either someone who knew the family (or worked for them) or it was the Ramsey's themselves.

3. The house was searched once or twice before John made another look around and then happened upon her. Made me think that he might of been getting frustrated that no one was finding her adn went to get her himself.

4. The hiring of the lawyers always irked me. If it was my daughter and I had nothing to hide, there is no way i would hire a lawyer as soon as they did.

The whole investigation was botched for sure (who sends family members around to look for a body??) and i blame the Boulder Police Dept for being inexperienced. But i really, really think the Ramseys know more then they have ever let on.

[peachysquirt21]

I have read two books on this case (both of them not taking either side) and have some really hard questions that need to be answered before I can clear the parents of any wrong doing. Right now i lean towards it being an accident (either they killed their daughter or someone they know did (i.e. Burke) and are covering up for them).

The reasons i think this is that:

1. The ramson note was (i think) three pages long and it has been determined it was written on a pad taken from inside the house. Who would commit a murder (or sit around waiting for them to come home) and write out a ransom note if they killed (or were going to kill) the young girl? That never added up for me.

2. The ramson note contained the amount of John Ramseys Christmas bonus. That would mean this could not be some random sexual offender. It was either someone who knew the family (or worked for them) or it was the Ramsey's themselves.

3. The house was searched once or twice before John made another look around and then happened upon her. Made me think that he might of been getting frustrated that no one was finding her adn went to get her himself.

4. The hiring of the lawyers always irked me. If it was my daughter and I had nothing to hide, there is no way i would hire a lawyer as soon as they did.

The whole investigation was botched for sure (who sends family members around to look for a body??) and i blame the Boulder Police Dept for being inexperienced. But i really, really think the Ramseys know more then they have ever let on.

Your #2 has always been puzzling for me. I cannot see a total stranger committing this crime given the person who wrote the ramsom note knew this such detail.

[Mr. Fuji]

I have read two books on this case (both of them not taking either side) and have some really hard questions that need to be answered before I can clear the parents of any wrong doing. Right now i lean towards it being an accident (either they killed their daughter or someone they know did (i.e. Burke) and are covering up for them).

The reasons i think this is that:

1. The ramson note was (i think) three pages long and it has been determined it was written on a pad taken from inside the house. Who would commit a murder (or sit around waiting for them to come home) and write out a ransom note if they killed (or were going to kill) the young girl? That never added up for me.

2. The ramson note contained the amount of John Ramseys Christmas bonus. That would mean this could not be some random sexual offender. It was either someone who knew the family (or worked for them) or it was the Ramsey's themselves.

3. The house was searched once or twice before John made another look around and then happened upon her. Made me think that he might of been getting frustrated that no one was finding her adn went to get her himself.

4. The hiring of the lawyers always irked me. If it was my daughter and I had nothing to hide, there is no way i would hire a lawyer as soon as they did.

The whole investigation was botched for sure (who sends family members around to look for a body??) and i blame the Boulder Police Dept for being inexperienced. But i really, really think the Ramseys know more then they have ever let on.
I disagree with the above poster. How foolish would it be for John Ramsey to write a ransom note and put down the exact number of his Christmas bonus on it? (Side note, where the heck is this guy working? That's a pretty hefty Christmas bonus if you ask me.) That leads me to believe that it wasn't he who wrote it or he'd be more likely to write a generic number, like $100,000. But it had to be someone who knew him well.

Additionally, if any of my close family members were ever murdered, I wouldn't hesitate to hire a lawyer immediately. Hiring a lawyer doesn't necessarily mean you have something to hide. It could just mean that you want to make sure you don't somehow get convicted of a crime when you're innocent of any wrongdoing. With all of the people who go to prison for crimes they don't commit, I'd consider hiring a lawyer when the Ramseys did a very wise move.

[UMLongtimefan]

The notion that DNA evidence is foolproof is misguided...plenty of cases have shown it to be more than fallible....i dont think the Ramseys did themselves any favours by hiring themelves a lawyer before the crime had even been investigated...an odd thing to do when you are inncoent, presumably devastated at the shocking death of your daughter, and presumably hell bent on finding the killer....



Sure DNA can get screwed up, but the fact that it shows up on this girl after her death, is a fact that can't be ignored. After all if the DNA pointed at one of the Ramsey's they'd probably be in jail (it was under her fingernails and in her pants).

As for hiring a lawyer, its not like the Ramsey's hired the lawyers before they called 911. The Ramsey's were cooperative until it was evident they were the primary suspects. Anybody who becomes a suspect SHOULD hire a lawyer. Whether we yanks like to admit or not there are plenty of innoncent people in our gaols because they thought they could convince the police they were innocent.


the question remains why any kidknapper who planned to extract a ransom then killed the girl and dumped her body in the basement having planted the ramson note....and how all of that could have happened without the Ramseys having been alerted to it....

That's where the more recent shows on this case I think provid an interesting and to me a reasonable doubt theory of the Ramsay's guilt. They proposed that the killer ,who from the evidence of the body suggests that they were sexually motivated, may have killed Jon Bennet before kidnapping her (unable to control their urge?) Maybe the kidnapping wasn't the motivation at all, and the killer was fanatasizing about the crime when they wrote the note.

He's already thinking about killing her, maybe something went wrong when he tried to get her out of the house and he decided to kill her before he left?

As for the Ramsey's not being alerted to to the kidnapping/murder.. unfortunately there are MANY MANY cases where children are kidnapped/murdered while their parents and guardians sleep in the next room and they don't here a sound. Some very recent cases of this in Florida and Utah. Of this very thing happening (Jacquilin Dwalaby (sp) you um fans?).

It was also mentioned in the newer shows that Lou Smit (the experienced detective that the boulder police hired to look into the case) believed that Jon Bennet was shocked by a stun gun, something that may have incapcitated her, and yet one wouldn't think the parents would do something that awful as use a stun gun on her for wetting her bed.

All lot of people believe that the Ramsey's were guilty because they abused Jon Bennet, yet if that's true why hasn't the brother or any of John's other children ever come forward and confirmed that either Jon or Patsy had abused Jon Bennet in the past? Do you think he wasn't asked? (As for her brother's guilt, no one involved in this case has ever believed he was the party responsible for this brutal murder).

Any history of previous sexual abuse (by John or Patsy)was not there and Jon Bennet's pedetrician was prepared to testify to that effect.


as for the 118,000 pound ransom demand....well, you could surmise that it was someone who knew what bonus he got (hardly likely though, if you assume a sex offender was involved, and if it was a sex crime, where does the ransom come in anyway) or you could surmise that Mr Ramsey ,who obviously knew what bonus he got, wanted people to think that.

The 118,000 certainly indicates to me that it was somebody who knew John Ramsey, but can it be proved it was Patsy,John or Burke?

Ramsey was well known in Boulder and was even called "Billion Dollar" John. Could his bonus have leaked out into the community as Fuji says that's a pretty big amount?

Despite repeatedly giving samples of her handwriting Patsy Ramsay could not be either proven or ruled out? I'm not sure why I would so readily discount DNA under a childs fingernails and in her pants as evidence, but be so eager to convict someone based handwriting analysis.

The note as I said is a long one and quite rambiling too, hard to believe that if anyone were trying to cover up a crime they would write a note that long? But leave the body in the house to be discovered?

To me, I think the note was doodling and fantasizing by the killer, not the parents writing with their left hands. Fuji's point is well taken and if you don't think this is was a brutal killing with ulterior motive than all I can say is read the facts of the case.

[dbcoopercatcher]

I just heard that her mother Patsy has died of cancer. :(

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/sns-ap-obit-patsy-ramsey,1,2544878.story?coll=chi-news-hed

Its so sad that she went to her grave not knowing who killed her daughter. I never thought the parents were responsible. For those of you who don't know it UM actually did profile this case but unexplicably Lifetime never airs it. I think they should since its still unsolved.

We can't say for sure that Patsy went to her grave not knowing who killed her daughter. All we can say is that the case is unsolved. the lead detective, Steve Thomas, actually wrote a book in which he believed Patsy was responsible. Steve actually was sued because you can't accuse someone publicly unless they are found guilty in court. However, it is not a done deal that John and Patsy had nothing to do with JOn Benet's death. The case is unsolved. Anyone could be responsible.

A major reason. Why would a kidnapper leave behind a ransom note and the body. Ask anyone in law enforcement, it is usually one or the other. Plus, Patsy could not be excluded as the writer of that ransom letter. the ransom letter was actually written on the same tab of paper which was in the kitchen of the Ramsey house. could someone have set John Ramsey or Patsy up? Possible. But, nobody is excluded in this case.
db

[nohwheregirl]

I watched John Walsh (host of America's Most Wanted) on Larry King last night. He stated that he didn't think this case would ever be solved due to the botched investigation. Such a sad statement.

[dbcoopercatcher]

I watched John Walsh (host of America's Most Wanted) on Larry King last night. He stated that he didn't think this case would ever be solved due to the botched investigation. Such a sad statement.

Agree, I just don't think the local police were experienced in this type of investigation. It is a shame, there were some local people who were alwasys under the umbrella of suspicion because a certain camp put their name in the news. And we all know who put their names in the news.

db

[dbcoopercatcher]

I have read two books on this case (both of them not taking either side) and have some really hard questions that need to be answered before I can clear the parents of any wrong doing. Right now i lean towards it being an accident (either they killed their daughter or someone they know did (i.e. Burke) and are covering up for them).

The reasons i think this is that:

1. The ramson note was (i think) three pages long and it has been determined it was written on a pad taken from inside the house. Who would commit a murder (or sit around waiting for them to come home) and write out a ransom note if they killed (or were going to kill) the young girl? That never added up for me.

2. The ramson note contained the amount of John Ramseys Christmas bonus. That would mean this could not be some random sexual offender. It was either someone who knew the family (or worked for them) or it was the Ramsey's themselves.

3. The house was searched once or twice before John made another look around and then happened upon her. Made me think that he might of been getting frustrated that no one was finding her adn went to get her himself.

4. The hiring of the lawyers always irked me. If it was my daughter and I had nothing to hide, there is no way i would hire a lawyer as soon as they did.

The whole investigation was botched for sure (who sends family members around to look for a body??) and i blame the Boulder Police Dept for being inexperienced. But i really, really think the Ramseys know more then they have ever let on.


thanks delta, I couldn't agree more. Even in the Lindbergh (sp)case in the 1930's, when the kidnapper accidentally killed the little boy, the kidnapper still took the boy from the home so that he could try and get a ransom. In this case, the "supposed" kidnapper left both the body and the note. Things were done to both the note and the body were overkill, in my opionion, in order to mislead police. but, who knows. It is important to note that the Ramsey's and everyone else (including the people the ramsey's pointed a finger at ) are innocent until proven guilty.

db

[Kane]

I watched Larry King Live last night, too. I remember the part about John Walsh expressing doubts that Jonbenet's murder would be solved. I agree that it's a sad statement.

But it wouldn't be the only case to go unsolved because of botched investigations. Here are two other examples:

1) The murder of his son, Adam Walsh. That case was horrendously mishandled, and some of the most vital pieces of evidence were lost. A lot of the best evidence pointed to the now-deceased serial killer Ottis Toole, but he was never charged in Adam's murder. Although it's likely that Toole killed Adam Walsh, the murder is still officially listed as an unsolved case.

2) The Green River Killer. A lot of mistakes were made in that investigation. There were some critics who believed that the cops might have done a better job if the Green River victims had been housewives and/or college girls, instead of prostitutes. In any case, with so many mistakes made in the case, there was the danger the the Green River case would never be solved. But thanks to DNA technology, it was eventually solved; Gary Ridgeway was identified as the Green River killer, and later pled guilty to 48 Green River murders. These guilty pleas gave him a prison sentence of life without parole, in lieu of the death penalty.

Given the details of the two cases I mentioned, it is understandable that someone might doubt that a particular case will eventually be solved. But of course, whether or not John Walsh will be right about the Ramsey case remains to be seen.

[passionsfan79]

Yea I heard that part to on Larry King hopefully it will be solved one day but don't think it will be. Sad

[Gangreen]

There are alot of things that lead me to believe the parents know more than they are willing to say.

[UMLongtimefan]

We can't say for sure that Patsy went to her grave not knowing who killed her daughter. All we can say is that the case is unsolved. the lead detective, Steve Thomas, actually wrote a book in which he believed Patsy was responsible. Steve actually was sued because you can't accuse someone publicly unless they are found guilty in court. However, it is not a done deal that John and Patsy had nothing to do with JOn Benet's death. The case is unsolved. Anyone could be responsible.

Ah yes the former narcotics investigator Steve Thomas who had never done a homicide investigation in his life did get sued, unfortunately Thomas who under a lesser burden of proof didn't believe he had a case, settled out of court. Its not Libel if what they say about you is true...just ask OJ somewhere Fred Goldman is still waiting for his settlement. Speaking of courts, even a grand jury couldn' hand down an indictment against the Ramsey's and you know what they say about Ham Sandwiches and Grand Juries...


A major reason. Why would a kidnapper leave behind a ransom note and the body. Ask anyone in law enforcement, it is usually one or the other. Plus, Patsy could not be excluded as the writer of that ransom letter. the ransom letter was actually written on the same tab of paper which was in the kitchen of the Ramsey house. could someone have set John Ramsey or Patsy up? Possible. But, nobody is excluded in this case.
db


There are two theories in the case, that The Ramseys themselves did it and were able to pull off a brilliant cover up in the matter of a few hours or a disorganized sexual predator did it.


This was a brutal killing, the child was strangled/tortured with a garrote before finally being done in with a blow to the head.. veteran homicide detective Lou Smith said in all the research he did he couldn't find any instance were a parent had abused a child using a garrote(basically the killer tied a rope around her neck and tightened it with a paint brush). Before she died however the child was abused.

In order to believe that the Ramsey's did this you have to believe Patsy went oops I just killed my daughter, but has the right mind to go fashion a garrote and strangle her daughter some more? If you believe the parents did this why don't they just claim Jonbenet fell down the stairs after they strike her in the head? wouldn't that be the most likely cover up of a parent? Patsy,John or Burke must be one of the most vicious,cunning and brutal killers of our time, its funny that none of them have a history of violence and have been so able to control their urges before and after that day. You'd think one of the children would have spoke up by now.

And speaking of the perfect cover up , the Ramsey's know they were going to be asked to search their house alone? Why do the elaborate set up and not hide her body better? Like down the street? Why even find her body at all? Obviously the police weren't looking, nope not in their move along.

As for the ransom note, so one of the Ramseys just kills her and they decide to sit down and write a long ransom note, why not just write a short one?


To me the disorganized killer fits , he wrote the note because he wanted to torture the family more, he thought he could get her out of the house but something happened maybe he lost control of his urges or she put up too much resistance to get her out of the house and he had to kill her, he used the materials at his hand and he wasn't perfect in covering up his crime.


There is the footprint in JonBenets bedroom which does not match any of the shoes the Ramsey's wore (unless those cunning Ramsey's hid those too), there is the unknown male dna under her fingernails and in her pants (why does the less the 50% chance of a handwriting analysis maybe matching out weigh dna in so many people's mind... most of us write English and most of us dot our i's that could mean we all in some way shape or form have similiar handwriting to our neighbors), the boulder police used DNA to eliminate suspects but not the Ramsey's isn't that an obvious double standard (did Patsy and John don their CSI suits before or after they murdered their daughter?)


Why do the crime scene photos point to obvious signs of an intruder in the basement (Jackly Dewalably?? anyone I'm asking here)? Did the Ramsey's plan those as well?


Again in order to believe the Ramsey's had to have some involvement in this case you have to believe they are disturbed individuals, there is nothing that shows that to be the case.

Less than a year after JonBennet was murdered another Boulder girl was sexually assaulted in her bedroom by an intruder while her mom slept nearby. She and JonBenet went to the same dance school, was this more of the elaborate yet perfect Ramsey cover-up?


While nothing is out of the realm of the possibilities, if we keep looking at the Ramsey's we might as well look for Unicorns while we're at it.

[dbcoopercatcher]

Less than a year after JonBennet was murdered another Boulder girl was sexually assaulted in her bedroom by an intruder while her mom slept nearby. She and JonBenet went to the same dance school, was this more of the elaborate yet perfect Ramsey cover-up?


While nothing is out of the realm of the possibilities, if we keep looking at the Ramsey's we might as well look for Unicorns while we're at it.

And this other girl, did the intruder's DNA match the DNA left on JonBenet? If it was the same guy, as you suggest, then why did that intruder leave a witness and why didn't he leave a three page ransom note?

For the record, I never stated that the Ramsey's were either guilty or innocent. I stated that they can't be excluded as suspects. As for the DNA on Jon Benet's clothes, it was not from semen. DNA can be transferred in a variety of ways, and it does not mean that DNA is from the killer. Also, wasn't Patsy wearing the same clothes on the morning the body discovered as she did the previous day? Not conclusive, but can point at not sleeping that night. Not to mention the pineapples in JonBenet's stomach which were also found in a bowl on the Ramsey kitchen table. Plus, the killer was thoughtful enough to put the latch on the wine cellar door where JonBenet was found. Doesn't sound like a guy or gal who was in a hurry to get out of the house (not to mention taking the time to write a three page note on a tablet from the home). If he or she had time to lock the door, why not go upstairs and grab the note? Better yet, why not take the child with and still try and get a ransom. why leave all of that physical evidence, not to mention a handwriting sample.

Is it really true that the ransom note did not have any fingerprints on it? Not even Patsy's or John's? If Patsy didn't pick up the note from the steps, then how did she read it? If true, is that a natural reaction, to step over a note left on your steps and read it without touching it? If I am wrong about the prints on the ransom note, please clarify. But, that is what I gleaned from the show.

Like I said, I am on the fence, and agree that with what we know that there is not enough evidence for an indictment. However, there also isn't enough evidence to clear them either.

db

Ps Larry King live, Friday JUne 30 will review the Ramsey case.

[SP4CE INV4DERZ]

I just heard that her mother Patsy has died of cancer. :(

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/sns-ap-obit-patsy-ramsey,1,2544878.story?coll=chi-news-hed

Its so sad that she went to her grave not knowing who killed her daughter. I never thought the parents were responsible. For those of you who don't know it UM actually did profile this case but unexplicably Lifetime never airs it. I think they should since its still unsolved.

Would you believe there was a story in the Courier Mail (QLD's #1 newspaper) on this yesterday. I was flicking through it and recognized the name.

[UMLongtimefan]

And this other girl, did the intruder's DNA match the DNA left on JonBenet? If it was the same guy, as you suggest, then why did that intruder leave a witness and why didn't he leave a three page ransom note?

The second case the perp was interrupted, the mother was a light sleeper and heard something. If he had had more time maybe he wouldn't have left a witness. Still not every sexual predator kills every victim they misuse.

Again the fact that the mother awoke to interrupt the perp doesn't suggest the Ramsey had to do it because they should have woken up, remember the Smart case in Utah,the Lunsford case in Florida, the Dwalably case on UM, and so many more cases where parents didn't know their children had been kidnapped right from what they thought was their protective care.

Someone mentioned the Walsh case, can we rule out that Mrs. Walsh didn't kill Adam? Why... she was the last one to see him, who really says they went to the store together that day? maybe she killed Adam before they went to the store and then went in to cause a disturbance and create an alibi?

But I don't believe that just because we can't be 150% certain Adam's mom didn't kill him that she did. No criminal case is ever going to be flawlessly perfect. Which is why when you write a book and accuse people of doing something this horrible you better be darn ready to back it up.



For the record, I never stated that the Ramsey's were either guilty or innocent. I stated that they can't be excluded as suspects. As for the DNA on Jon Benet's clothes, it was not from semen. DNA can be transferred in a variety of ways, and it does not mean that DNA is from the killer.

For the record I don't believe we can honestly rule out Unicorns either.. seriously though, how does Male DNA get on someone's panties? I heard Michael Baden (didn't he work for OJ at one point) claim the DNA could have come from a store salesman. Really? Male salesmen in a children's store? That's odd, I've never seen one let alone know too many guys to hang out in the little girls pantie isle? and even its the stock boy or a dad purchasing something, was this brand new underwear Patsy never washed?

Male DNA that isn't a family member showing up in a little girls underwear is certainly odd isn't it? Especially if this evidence isn't degraded by washing and wear.


Also, wasn't Patsy wearing the same clothes on the morning the body discovered as she did the previous day? Not conclusive, but can point at not sleeping that night.

Or it more likely points to a parent who discovers their daughter is missing putting on the first thing she could find to search in and outside the house. It was after all a Colorado winter morning.

Not to mention the pineapples in JonBenet's stomach which were also found in a bowl on the Ramsey kitchen table.
Ahh the pineapples and Patsy didn't remember feeding Jonbenet that sounds like good evidence to me, JonBenet wasn't an infant she could feed herself and she probably got a snack before she went to bed..kids do it all the time. I'm sorry but I don't see that as a significant evidence that the Ramsey's garroted, blungeoned their daughter and then wrote a 3 page note to cover it up.

Plus, the killer was thoughtful enough to put the latch on the wine cellar door where JonBenet was found. Doesn't sound like a guy or gal who was in a hurry to get out of the house (not to mention taking the time to write a three page note on a tablet from the home). .

Only if you believe the note was written after JonBenet was killed. Smit and other experienced homicide detectives believe the note was written while the killer waited for the Ramsey's to return. Latching the door only proves he was hiding the body, if he infact latched it, who thought they unlatched it the father who obviously would have been in a flood of emotions? One of the other searchers who may have inadvertenly latched it themselves?

I don't believe the killer was in a hurry to get out of the house, I only believe he had trouble for any number of reasons getting that child out of the house.

If he or she had time to lock the door, why not go upstairs and grab the note? Better yet, why not take the child with and still try and get a ransom. why leave all of that physical evidence, not to mention a handwriting sample.

Because she weighed more than the killer anticipated, she resisted more, he'd already peaked? For the record I'm not the one suggesting this killer committed the perfect cover up.

If we believe the Ramsey's did this though we have to believe they went out of their way to create evidence . Its not fun but put yourself in one of the Ramsey's shoes that night if they are supposedly guilyt...what makes more common sense in the middle of the night when you only have a few hours to come up with an alibi? claim JonBenet fell down the stairs and that's why she has the massive head wound or make a garrote try to nearly behead their own child, stuff her body here, and right a long long...longer yet ransom note with their left hand and hope the police won't suspect the last known people to see her alive.


Is it really true that the ransom note did not have any fingerprints on it? Not even Patsy's or John's? If Patsy didn't pick up the note from the steps, then how did she read it? If true, is that a natural reaction, to step over a note left on your steps and read it without touching it? If I am wrong about the prints on the ransom note, please clarify. But, that is what I gleaned from the show. .

Actually I believe the note had the Ramsey's fingerprints on it.. and why wouldn't it was in her house. JonBenet also may have had fibers from her mothers clothing on her (again they live together and she is the girls mother) and the garrotte was fashioned from patsy's paint supplies. But none of that to me suggest unicorns exist.. it points to an oppourtunistic disorganized killer that used what was at his disposal.

Smit however points out that junior officers like Thomas while doggedly pursuing the Ramseys ignored the duct tape, stun gun and other forensic evidence because they became obsessed with the minutia like the handwriting of the ransom note and pinapples .

One officer wrote a book to make himself rich, the other works pro bono on the case. I know which one I have more confidence in.


Like I said, I am on the fence, and agree that with what we know that there is not enough evidence for an indictment. However, there also isn't enough evidence to clear them either.

db.

And I don't have a problem with that... I hope this case and the Walsh case do get solved...even if it the only good that comes out of them is the discovery that Unicorn's really do exist.

[dbcoopercatcher]

Didn't John Ramsey write a book about this? I wonder if the RAmsey's kept investigating and looking for their daughter's killer after they moved half way across the country. And why wouldn't they take the polygraph administered by teh FBi? And so on.

Steve Thomas's book on the case, the detective in charge of this case is a must read. Excellent, unbiased book.

db

[UMLongtimefan]

BWAHAHAHA

DB you kid don't you?

Thomas.. the guy who had ZERO homicide experience unbiased? Skip the Unicorns if that one's true I think we just found the Leprachaun's pot of gold!:lol: :lol:

Yes the Ramsey's did write a book after they were slandered, after the only public record of JonBenet was her murder and some child pagent photos. Thomas the unbiased guy.. didn't even want to go to court over his evidence... if even HE believed that any of what he says in his own book had any validity you would think he would show up to defend it. Again you can't be sued for libel if you can convince a majority of a jury or judge that what you are saying is true in a civil trial.

If JonBenet had vanished, I could see reasons for the Ramsey's staying put in Boulder. Instead it was the place where their child was murdered and they were acccused of killing her. I believe they had family in Atlanta (also where JonBenet is buried, where Patsy had previously been treated for cancer) and obviously their money issues forced their eventual relocation to Michigan. They returned to Boulder to be interviewed by Lou Smit, and weren't hiding from the long arm of the law. I suppose in the days of wagon trains and morse code telegraphs "halfway across the country" would be a long distance .. but with Jets,Facsimiles,and computers that's just not true anymore.

As for the lie detector the Ramsey's did take a lie detector test and had it reviewed by the foremost authority in the country. There were no signs of deception. The evidence would be inadmissable anyway.

Now again DB if you want to hold onto the belief that the Ramseys are guilty or not exactly innocent.. more power too you.. I just remember how the media started to turn on the parents/grandparents in the Smart and Lunsford cases until they were proven wrong.

I'm not under a delusion that parents don't kill their children.. sadly it happens, I don't get why parents would overkill their child in this manner though. Again I've never heard any serious shread of evidence that points in any fashion at Burke Ramsey.


This is one case though that I think after you see Jonbenet A Second Look (the Court TV show with Lou Smit) and you review the 48hours episode, you'll see why I'm satisfied as much as reasonably posible that the Ramseys are innocent.

[Awsi Dooger]

I watched the tape of the old Larry King interview with the Ramseys from 2000, and Steve Thomas was incredibly weak. He tried to argue Patsy Ramsey changed her handwriting after the murder. Wait a minute, isn't the argument that handwriting is ingrained, that we can't alter it completely even while trying to?

But several times on that show Ramsey said Patsy couldn't be eliminated as the source of the handwriting on the ransom note, and that she changed her handwriting style after the murder. That was a complete whiff to me. Can't be eliminated is not the phrase they would use if there was any type of match. Plus I know I've heard the authorities speculate Patsy wrote it with her off hand. That is really a reach.

[dbcoopercatcher]

We do agree on one area. There is zero chance that Burke RAmsey, I think he was ten or so at the time, wrote the note or had anything to do with this crime. Anyone who suggests such a thing is not thinking.

We can battle all year, about this and that, truth is, none of us was in that house that night and we don't know what happened. I also don't agree with Steve Thomas for publicly accusing Patsy, that is why we have courts.

This forum started with a statement that the RAmsey's can be eliminated as suspects. I totally disagree. Until a killer is identified, everyone, especially someone who lived in the house, is a suspect. Nobody is accusing anyone of pre-meditation either. However, John Ramsey's own statement is that he was sleeping the entire night until Patsy awakened him when she found the note. Hence, John's claim that Patsy had nothing to do with this is unfounded. JOhn could say he could not imagine Patsy hurting that child, but, if your story is that you were sleeping the entire night, then you admittedly can't be an alibi witness.

Anything is possible in this case. However, if somebody killed my daughter, I would stay in that town, use all of my resources, and find the person who did it. Period.

db

[wiseguy182]

These are some possible explanations to some questions posed earlier on this thread. (I have read John and Patsy's book. I believe it was called the Death of Innocence)

There was some speculation that if an intruder had entered the house and done it, that John and Patsy would have heard it. I would say not necessarily. First of all, their house was really huge (kind of goes without saying in a sense when you look at how much John made). Maybe if JonBenet had been killed in a room nearby her parents, they might have heard something, but it is entirely possible she was killed on another end of the house. It is also possible JonBenet left her room on her own free will and fell victim somewhere else in the house (this might explain the pineapple found in her - maybe she went downstairs for a snack, as someone in an earlier post had mentioned.) Also, I don't know about Pasty, but John had stated the he had taken a sleeping pill and that he always taken a sleeping pill right before bed, so that would probably would have made it less likely that he would have heard anything. Also, if a stun gun was used, that would have made it virtually impossible for JonBenet to have caused any noise.

There was also some speculation as to why JonBenet hadn't been found in the first two searches of the house, and it wasn't until the third search that they found her. Again, their house was really huge. I recall in the book that she was found in a room that most people would have overlooked if they were looking around the house for the first time. My theory is that an intruder was in the house several hours before they got home and had time on his hands and found this hidden room.

There was also some doubt as to why would an intruder write a note on a pad found in the house and why not just bring his own pad? One theory that was mentioned in the book was that sometimes these criminals get their thrills in weird ways. As I theorized above, I believe he was in the house for several hours before the Ramseys got home. He probably wanted to heighten the suspense by writing the note in the house.

As to why John and Patsy hired a lawyer, I read a statistic that a high percentage (but not 100%) of these types of crimes are committed by someone the victim knew. John and Patsy said that they were shocked they were considered suspects, but I think deep down inside they probably knew they were at least going to be considered eventually. What I don't agree with is the Boulder Police pretty much insisting the Ramseys did it while not even considering that maybe somebody else did. They threw all of their eggs in one basket.

As you probably guessed, I lean towards the Ramseys being innocent. While a few of their actions seem a little out of sorts, I don't think they could have done such vicious things to their daughter. I have read their book and they tell their side very thoroughly. They explain a lot of things that most of the public probably wasn't aware of. Might want to give it a read if you find the time.

[crystaldawn]

Some good points wiseguy. As I've stated before I don't think the Ramsey's are guilty. I think JonBenet was killed by a sexual predator. If it was just someone who wanted to get back at John Ramsey or the family for something he would have just killed her where she slept. The fact that she was incapacitated by a stun gun and taken into the basement makes me believe his initial motive was to molest her. :( Possibly she knew him or recognized him from the neighborhood as remember there were a lot of registered sex offenders living nearby and she was killed to insure her silence. I think the ramson note wasn't planned but was an after thought after she was killed to try and draw attention away from it being a possible stranger and to focus on the Ramsey's or someone in their inner circle.

Wiseguy did they ever say in the book where the notepad was located that the murderer used to write the ramson note on? Meaning did the killer have to go back up in the house to find it?

[studster147]

"He probably wanted to heighten the suspense by writing the note in the house"

Do u REALLY expect us to believe that....??

I think we're going round in circles here....clearly there are lots of people that think the Ramseys are innocent, and there are just as many who dont...and one will never convince the other, whatever arguments they try to put forward....ultimately, its pure speculation, but if the so called DNA evidence is as strong as Ramsey supporters would have us believe, then presumably a match should be made one day which will settle the issue...

by the way CD, if as you suggest the likely killer is one of the many registered sex offenders who were living in the area, its odd that they havent already come up with a match dont you think??

[kadrmas15]

Okay, I have never posted on this case until now. I dont know a lot about this case but here is my opinion. Okay, first off the Boulder, Colorado police botched this investigation big time. Evidence was mishandled and even destroyed I think. There have been theories about how the Ramsey's killed Jon Benet, about how Patsy herself killed her, about how even the older brother who was like all of 10 at the time killed her. The trouble I have with the parents is what would they have to gain from killing their daughter? Even if they had an insurance policy on her, what would they stand to gain from that? They were already rich and were millionaires it isnt like they needed or even wanted more money. I tend to agree with Crystaldawn that it was an outsider that did it but I think this person had done their homework on this one. But they did make mistakes but the police botched the investigaton big time. Another example of how shoddy and sloppy police work can mess things up. I dont believe the ransom note was pre planned. You can tell by the way it was written that it was spur of the moment and the writer whoever it was, was just pulling stuff out of their ass. I think they did it to throw off the authorities. Afterall your typical sexual predator doesnt care about money, they just want to get their kicks. I think they even did a handwriting analysis comparing the writing on the ransom note to Pasty Ramsey's writing and they didnt match.

[crystaldawn]

by the way CD, if as you suggest the likely killer is one of the many registered sex offenders who were living in the area, its odd that they havent already come up with a match dont you think??

I'm not saying for sure JonBenet's killer was one of the registered sex offenders in her area just saying that seems much more plausible than the parents killing her. Not to mention there are so many pedophiles out there who haven't yet been caught and made to register. Also if Patsy killed her daughter knowingly or accidentally how do you explain the unknown male dna found in her underwear and under her nails?

The last I heard they are still in the process of testing possible suspects dna to the dna found on JonBenet so its still possible they will find the killer that way (if his dna happens to be on file). My own personal opinion is that someone will eventually be arrested for her murder, I don't think it will go on unsolved forever.

[wiseguy182]

CrystalDawn, I am not sure if the book mentioned where in the house the pad came from. If they did, I don't recall it. Sorry, it's been about 7 years since I've read it and my memory on certain areas of it is fuzzy.

[skunk ape]

I like wiseguy's theory of an intruder entering into the house while the Ramseys were out earlier that night that had knowledge of the Ramsey's schedule. Maybe someone who saw Jon Benet at those pageants and followed them and may have posed as a photographer or something of that nature that gave him access to the house. When he was in the house, he wrote the note after finding financial information out. The killer had opened John's bible to Psalm 118 which was the amount demanded in the "ransom note".
Jon Benet probably woke up with Burke and had some pineapple and he had the tea with the teabag in the glass and after they went back to sleep, the intruder used duct tape and a stun-gun to subdue Jon Benet. She was then taken down to the cellar where she probably woke up unexpectedly and tried to make some noise, then he smashed her skull with a sledgehammer or something heavy enough to do the damage that was present on her skull. A garrote was wrapped around her neck to make sure she was dead.

The note, in essence, seems to be put together as a means of throwing the investigators off of the track of the real killer no matter who wrote it. I just don't think any of the Ramseys had a motive to do the things that were done to Jon Benet and I wonder where the duct tape and stun-gun went. Those seem like 2 key pieces of evidence that were brought to the Ramsey's house that night by the intruder, that were never found.

[The Shadow]

Michael Helgoth
SSN 521-39-3548
Born 9 July 1970
Died 14 February 1997

Contrary to popular belief Michael Helgoth was murdered by his partner in crime. They set out to burglarize the Ramsey home, based on information JonBenet Ramsey innocently gave to Michael Helgoth when he worked on the sailboat John Ramsey had rented in the summer of 1996. Michael Helgoth bought a pair of Hi-Tec hiking boots paid for from his last check from this job. Michael Helgoth had a collection of stun guns and one of these had been used on JonBenet once in the neck and on the hip. Michael drew up the draft quality drawings from memory and He (Michael Helgoth) wrote the ransom note. NOT PATSY! Is that finally clear to everyone? Two sets of footprints were FOUND and both were photographed. Michael Helgoth left the Hi-Tec footprint on a suitcase belonging to the Ramsey family. This is what I call the "sandcastle" footprint. Michael's roommate was SEEN the night of the murder, he was described as looking like a homeless Santa Claus. He was seen tying the ropes together. He would later rape and murder JonBenet Ramsey. He left his fingerprints on the "murder weapon" Burke's baseball bat. He left his DNA on JonBenet's panties. Then he killed Michael Helgoth over the spoils from their burglary business, he left the watches, rings, and other items to Michael. He even left the gun on Michael's LEFT SIDE. Michael Helgoth was RIGHT-HANDED. He was a known biker and left his biker clothing at Grandma's house located somehwhere on/or near the 4900 block of Velmont Road.

[UMLongtimefan]

Interesting.:confused:

[studster147]

far fetched

[Awsi Dooger]

Sad that it comes a couple months after Patsy died. There was one comment on MSNBC that it may be a person who Patsy suspected early in the case.

http://www.9news.com/acm_news.aspx?OSGNAME=KUSA&IKOBJECTID=189d522a-0abe-421a-00f3-dded5288de58&TEMPLATEID=0c76dce6-ac1f-02d8-0047-c589c01ca7bf

KUSA - A Boulder County District Attorney investigator is bringing a suspect in the JonBenet Ramsey murder case back to the United States.

The suspect was arrested in Bangkok, Thailand Wednesday morning.

The suspect has confessed to certain elements of the crime that are unknown to the general public.

The suspect is expected to arrive back in the United States, possibly within the next two days, accompanied by an investigator from the Boulder DA's office.

The Boulder County DA's office has not confirmed the identity of the suspect, but is expected to have a press conference later today.

[peachysquirt21]

I think it is really interesting that this arrest comes not long after Patsy died.

[DJ_Foxx]

I think it is really interesting that this arrest comes not long after Patsy died.
Maybe her spirit led to the killer. I'm not being funny with this but she did say in numerous interviews she wouldn't rest until the killer was captured.

[Charli-Ann]

Fantastic news!!!

Charli-Ann

[WatchYourLips]

This is fantastic news and I hope this scum bag becomes a play toy in prison.

[LooksLikeCRicci]

I think it is really interesting that this arrest comes not long after Patsy died.


I want to say that the Google news story I read regarding this arrest made mention of the fact that Patsy had been made aware of the possible suspect a month before she died...

[Awsi Dooger]

I want to say that the Google news story I read regarding this arrest made mention of the fact that Patsy had been made aware of the possible suspect a month before she died...

Right. I think MSNBC may have gotten it wrong once early this afternoon when they said it was someone who Patsy suspected. Sounds like it was a suspect they told Patsy about shortly before she died.

Looks like crystaldawn had the correct instincts, a sex offender who may not have been caught and registered as one at the time.

Interesting the latest articles have the suspect's name and also that online investigation played a role in the case:http://edition.cnn.com/2006/LAW/08/16/ramsey.arrest/

"A law enforcement source identified the suspect as 41-year-old John Mark Karr, a one-time schoolteacher and American citizen who has lived in Conyers, Georgia.

Karr has confessed to some elements of the crime, law enforcement sources told CNN.

The sources added that Karr had been communicating with someone in Boulder and that online investigation played a key role in leading authorities to the suspect."

[LooksLikeCRicci]

The fact that he was a schoolteacher makes me want to retch.

[Awsi Dooger]

I searched for the name with many different keywords and finally came up with this link. It's got teaching background all over it with young children, so this could be him. He looks anything but threatening:

http://www.gnbenglish.com/board/view.php?cd=111939074567294100&tcd=photo01&sf=&sv=&st=&div=&flag=&page_cnt=5

Also, I read an article indicating he sent emails to Patsy with details of the sexual assault. That may have been the online investigation mentioned in the other article I pasted.

[nohwheregirl]

I searched for the name with many different keywords and finally came up with this link. It's got teaching background all over it with young children, so this could be him. He looks anything but threatening:

http://www.gnbenglish.com/board/view.php?cd=111939074567294100&tcd=photo01&sf=&sv=&st=&div=&flag=&page_cnt=5

Also, I read an article indicating he sent emails to Patsy with details of the sexual assault. That may have been the online investigation mentioned in the other article I pasted.

That's him! CNN just posted his pic. Good find, Awsi.

I also think that it's interesting that this case has come to a head right after Patsy died. It's possible that the news of a suspect allowed her to let go and pass away in peace.

[Awsi Dooger]

That's him! CNN just posted his pic. Good find, Awsi.

I also think that it's interesting that this case has come to a head right after Patsy died. It's possible that the news of a suspect allowed her to let go and pass away in peace.

Now that site pulled his picture and all the info. At least it doesn't work for me anymore, despite many reloads. Virtually blank.

[Sydneysider]

That story has been receiving a lot of media coverage here as well.

The latest reports says he claims the death was "an accident". I was cringing as I read the article tho. He said he was "in love" with the girl (like he was, what, 31 at the time, and she 6??? What gives?), and had gone to her house to see her. They went down to the basement where he then "accidently killed" her. What a shocking story.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/jonbenet-killing-i-did-it/2006/08/17/1155407918895.html

[justins5256]

Sounds like Ceryl Wecht's findings of an accidental death were right on target.

I wonder if this guy has any connection to the "BnJazzy4ever45" person who confessed in an AOL chatroom that they were the killer.

[Awsi Dooger]

I certainly hope there's physical evidence to link him, a DNA match or something substantial. Not merely a confession and a few supposedly unique details.

I watched the press conference live from Thailand and it was bizarre. Reminded me of the Lee Harvey Oswald situation where he was paraded before the media before being shot by Jack Ruby. Karr was walked out in front of the press with his pants hiked way up and his light blue shirt buttoned to the top. He looked like an insignificant skinny little nerd. One member of the panel from Thailand was beaming the entire time, obviously thrilled with the worldwide coverage.

Then Karr's so-called confession on TV was little more than saying it was an accident, followed by several no comments. There was zero to indicate he had any special knowledge.

If I knew more perhaps I wouldn't be skeptical this is the right guy. The Boulder police will have a press conference on Thursday that will hopefully include specifics. But on Greta Van Susteren last night they had an interview with Karr's brother that had some troubling aspects. The brother said Karr researched one high profile murder case after another in hopes of maybe writing a book. He indicated the online research was extensive and also some phone calls and letters, including to the guy who killed Polly Klaas. The brother said Karr was living in Alabama at the time of the Ramsey murder and didn't move west until maybe 5 years ago. That was the period he was fired from a teaching job in California. The brother wasn't certain Karr hadn't visited the family at Christmas '96, but he'd have to check family photographs once he got home.

I started to get the feeling Karr was obsessed with murderers and the notoriety they received.
Now he's there.

Perhaps he was frustrated he hadn't been caught and subconsciously took some sloppy steps to make sure he finally received that notoriety, very similar to BTK.

[crystaldawn]

What a total sleaze. How do you accidentally strangle and beat someone? :mad:

[siamesemeg]

Here's a very interesting article on the role the "online investigating" took:
http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=domesticNews&storyID=2006-08-17T150015Z_01_N16192785_RTRUKOC_0_US-CRIME-JONBENET.xml

Seems the suspect began corresponding via email with a filmmaker who made a film about the case; the filmmaker urged Boulder police to take a good look at the suspect. It sounds as though the suspect knows details about the case that have not been made public. He sounds very credible to me; I do hope he gets due process so that justice may finally be served here.

Has anyone else here read John Douglas' analysis of this case in The Cases That Haunt Us? It sounds as though his profile was right on.

[tfmlam]

I was as surprised as anyone to hear today the apprehened a suspect who admitted to the death of JonBenet I hope for the best for the Ramsey's I hope they have enough proof to convict and finally know the truth!

[ouphe]

I just heard that her mother Patsy has died of cancer. :(

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/sns-ap-obit-patsy-ramsey,1,2544878.story?coll=chi-news-hed

Its so sad that she went to her grave not knowing who killed her daughter. I never thought the parents were responsible.I have always felt they were innocent as well. Just imagine the pure hell those poor people had to go through, not only from the loss of a daughter, but also the public lynching they had to endure at the hands of the media.

I hope Mr. Ramsey wins a truckload of lawsuits.

[peachysquirt21]

After watching different reports on this latest development, I am beginning to wonder if this person had anthing to do with this crime. Things are starting to look fishy to me...

[The Barbs]

Sounds like Ceryl Wecht's findings of an accidental death were right on target.

I wonder if this guy has any connection to the "BnJazzy4ever45" person who confessed in an AOL chatroom that they were the killer.
I saw an interview with Ceryl Wecht today on Fox News and he said he doubts this is the guy that murdered her. We shall see.

[boco357]

After watching different reports on this latest development, I am beginning to wonder if this person had anthing to do with this crime. Things are starting to look fishy to me...


I agree, this seems way to convenient.

[crystaldawn]

Yes I've been seeing news coverage that seems skeptical that he's the one. But why did they charge him with her murder? I mean they had to have had some corroborating evidence, they wouldn't have just arrested him on a confession would they?

They do have dna of her killer to my understanding so they should be able to rule him out or possibly convict him on that. I also wonder if they'll try and match his handwriting to that from the ransom note.

[Awsi Dooger]

This looks like a bigger flub than the previous district attorney. Now it's looking like a tragic case of false hope for the family. Karr claims he picked up JonBenet from school and drugged her. Meanwhile, she was on Christmas break that day, and no drugs in her system.

This guy will be a footnote in history. Maybe he needs mental evaluation and treatment, but otherwise he'll be released.

[Awsi Dooger]

Maybe this will have positive residue. We've never really had a high profile case of a false confession.

I get incredibly frustrated when I'm watching the true crime shows and you get the jury members asking why someone would make a false confession. Meanwhile, you watch the interrogation tapes where the police badger someone for hours and a thousand nos are ignored, but as soon as he says "OK I did it" while half asleep at 5 AM they hand him a piece of paper to make a formal confession.

[peachysquirt21]

They should have done more investigating before letting this go public. I dont see this guy being the one. If he is, I will be very surprised. Another screw up it is looking to me.

[Awsi Dooger]

I'm getting a bit sick of Mark Klaas, Polly's father. Obviously he and the family suffered beyond description with Polly's senseless murder, but his entire cliche input in cases like this is how the family acted, the cooperation with authorities, compared to how he cooperated and how he wants everyone to act. Tonight he said he doubts Karr is the murderer and if not that means the rightful focus is back where it's been for the last 10 years, on the Ramseys.

Klaas has no business being on the air. They can tape his theory once and apply it to every case, if they want to. The guy has no special insight and I'm sorry but being a relative of a victim is not equivalent to a lifetime pass to provide analysis, if that analysis is slanted or incompetent or simpleton.

[nohwheregirl]

Maybe this will have positive residue. We've never really had a high profile case of a false confession.

I get incredibly frustrated when I'm watching the true crime shows and you get the jury members asking why someone would make a false confession. Meanwhile, you watch the interrogation tapes where the police badger someone for hours and a thousand nos are ignored, but as soon as he says "OK I did it" while half asleep at 5 AM they hand him a piece of paper to make a formal confession.

I was thinking the exact same thing. Also, think what you will about the whole child beauty pageant thing, but Mr. Ramsey is a class act. He really did us all a service by reminding us not to jump to conclusions about Karr because of what happened to him and his wife.

[wiseguy182]

There's probably a lot of events yet to unfold in this one. I have some doubts too that this is the person who murdered JonBenet, but evidently he knows some things that only the murderer would know, so will see what happens. It remains to be proven that he killed JonBenet, but I just read in a news item that at one point he was charged with 5 counts of child pornogrpahy possession, and subsequently violated his parole. So the guy's a creep regardless of what happens.

[MsCooper]

This is one case I have followed over the years with heart and sole. I got so angry with the FBI and the Colorado Police Dept...they let the trail get cold while they blamed the parents. I really hurt for Patsy because she never found the truth and I don't believe it is over yet. There were so many of the facts that did leak out - I am not sure what it is that he is supposed to know that was not in the media at one time or another.

I will be waiting for the DNA to come back. There was as we all know DNA under her fingernails and in her panties that did not match anyone in the family...or the household, although it was reported that she had not been raped and there was no semen. That DNA has always been a puzzle - there was a party earlier and I have always wanted to know if they retrieved DNA from everyone who was at that party.

I don't think this guy is the creep who killed her, but I have been wrong before.

[skunk ape]

Wasn't there an unknown fingerprint left in the house in addition to the DNA evidence?

[The Shadow]

S.B.T.C. stands for

S. anta B. arbara T. ennis C. lub

Michael Helgoth owned a shirt from this tennis club.

Victory! Was taken from a pair of pants Michael Helgoth owned. They are made in Great Britain and the brand name is Victory.

John Mark Carr is not the name of the man they chased through three states only to lose him in Utah. The Detective who was a partner of Former Detective Steve Thomas mentioned this in his own version of his book. He admitted that several mistakes were made in this case. They were hoping he would lead them to Michael Helgoth, but he had killed him already. Michael Helgoth wrote the ransom note and notebooks he left behind will prove it! Karr's handwriting doesn't even come close. Michael Helgoth's matches exactly!

[The Shadow]

An unknown palm print on a door to a room used as a wine cellar. It did not belong to the Ramsey's or anyone they knew!

[The Shadow]

Read the book of Steve Thomas' partner's book. In it he admits chasing the killer of JonBenet through three states only to loose him in Utah! They were hoping he would lead them to Michael Helgoth, who was dead already! Michael Tracey mentioned this man and both sources mentioned the SAME MAN! Michael Helgoth was the proud owner of a collection of stun/Tazer weapons. Five at last count. He met JonBenet Ramsey on the sailboat John Ramsey had rented for son Burke. It was his turn to choose. This is where they met for the first time.

[MsCooper]

In 1972 there was a girl strangled and rape, her father was also killed in a the small college town of Milledgeville, Georgia. The girls name was Amanda Karr -
she was killed by a serial rapist named Paul John Knowles.

Question does anyone know the place that Karr lived at as a 6 yr. old. I am thinking if he was related to Mandy Karr that he may have been traumatized by the event and it has warped his mind...His resemblance to the Karrs in that area is uncanny.

I lived in Milledgeville, Ga in 1972 in a house whose back yard adjoined the Karr residence where Mandy and her Father were murdered - with the name of Karr (which I am sure is a coincidence) this immediately jumped into my mind and the mind of my daughter who was 12 in 1972. We had a lenghty conversation about this on the phone tonight.

Can anyone answer that question about Karrs background?

[Awsi Dooger]

Well, I watched a show on Court TV that focused on Helgoth for quite a while and certainly made me skeptical he commited suicide as opposed to murder. Right hand across his body shooting into the chest while using a pillow to muzzle. That's a new one.

But I'll say again the word admit is not appropriate in a case like this. They may claim they chased the killer through three states only to lose him in Utah, but it's not admit. Sorry but it's of my pet peeves. I saw a national female newscaster use it last night and I wanted to scream at the screen, "Karr admits he killed JonBenet..."

[mystery_daisy]

I read an article which stated that Karr has a history of marrying minors in *private ceremonies* and that one was 13. Anyway she got pregnant with twin girls and Karr *assisted* in the delivery at home and both babies died.
I'll try to find the link.

[mystery_daisy]

In 1972 there was a girl strangled and rape, her father was also killed in a the small college town of Milledgeville, Georgia. The girls name was Amanda Karr -
she was killed by a serial rapist named Paul John Knowles.

Question does anyone know the place that Karr lived at as a 6 yr. old. I am thinking if he was related to Mandy Karr that he may have been traumatized by the event and it has warped his mind...His resemblance to the Karrs in that area is uncanny.

I lived in Milledgeville, Ga in 1972 in a house whose back yard adjoined the Karr residence where Mandy and her Father were murdered - with the name of Karr (which I am sure is a coincidence) this immediately jumped into my mind and the mind of my daughter who was 12 in 1972. We had a lenghty conversation about this on the phone tonight.

Can anyone answer that question about Karrs background?



I don't know if this will help you, but it's a copy of Karr's resume I just found.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14394791/site/newsweek%20/

Also, I found the article mentioning Karr's 13 year wife and the pregnancy, I mentioned in my last post.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14400501/

[WatchYourLips]

The Ramsey's went to see a psychic to see if they could find the killer and the psychic made a drawing.

This drawing looks almost identical to this freak John Carr. Has anybody seen this and/or know anything about it.

EERIE

Thanks in advance

[wiseguy182]

mystery_daisy was correct when they stated Karr had married minors in the past. I have also read that one of those minors said she left Karr because she was afraid for her life.

I have not personally seen the composite sketch the psychic made, or even knew their was one before. Thanks for the info though, I'll do a search on the web and see if it's anywhere there. I do believe there are some legitimate psychics out there, and I believe their visions shouldn't be totally disregarded.

EDIT: Just found a picture of the sketch on the web, and there definitely are some similarities, what does everyone else think? The sketch was done by none other than psychic Dorothy Allison, who has been profiled on UM.

and here's the link:

http://paranormal.about.com/b/a/257628.htm

Just read in a different article that Karr was trying to pull a Liz Carmichael over there in Thailand (having sex-change treatments in order to avoid being recognized.) Apparently, their rates over there are a bargain compared to ours, the article stated.

[LooksLikeCRicci]

Just read in a different article that Karr was trying to pull a Liz Carmichael over there in Thailand (having sex-change treatments in order to avoid being recognized.) Apparently, their rates over there are a bargain compared to ours, the article stated.

Whaaaat? Do you have a link for that article? That's kinda messed up.

[wiseguy182]

Whaaaat? Do you have a link for that article? That's kinda messed up.

Here's a link to an article that talks about it. It's from the Denver Post.

http://www.denverpost.com/ci_4212771?source=rss

[The Shadow]

Michael Helgoth
Born: 9 July 1970
Died 14 February 1997
Social Security Number
521-39-3548

He wrote the ransom note.
He learned Drafting in school, his drawings match the floor plans of the Ramsey home.
He owned five Tazer Guns.
He owned Hi-Tec hiking boots.
He worked as a deckhand on the sailboat John Ramsey rented for son Burke.
Professor Tracey names Michael Helgoth's roommate as Suspect #3.
Michael's roomate is left handed. He is the man who tied up JonBenet.
This man killed JonBenet Ramsey. Why did the Boulder Police Department and Boulder Sheriff's Office chase this man through THREE STATES? They lost his trail in Silverbird, Utah and not heard from him since.

[New Brandon]

And how do you know all of this, Shadow?

[wiseguy182]

Just finished watching the last half of a Dateline episode I had taped, Friday I believe it was. Anyways, it talked about an odd inscription Karr had left on somebody's yearbook in high school: "I Shall Be The Conquerer." They noticed that, if you take away the I, the acronym is SBTC. At the end of the ranson note it says Victory, SBTC.

[New Brandon]

Just finished watching the last half of a Dateline episode I had taped, Friday I believe it was. Anyways, it talked about an odd inscription Karr had left on somebody's yearbook in high school: "I Shall Be The Conquerer." They noticed that, if you take away the I, the acronym is SBTC. At the end of the ranson note it says Victory, SBTC.

I knew someone would eventually find something that matched "SBTC."

[MsCooper]

Michael Helgoth
Born: 9 July 1970
Died 14 February 1997
Social Security Number
521-39-3548

He wrote the ransom note.
He learned Drafting in school, his drawings match the floor plans of the Ramsey home.
He owned five Tazer Guns.
He owned Hi-Tec hiking boots.
He worked as a deckhand on the sailboat John Ramsey rented for son Burke.
Professor Tracey names Michael Helgoth's roommate as Suspect #3.
Michael's roomate is left handed. He is the man who tied up JonBenet.
This man killed JonBenet Ramsey. Why did the Boulder Police Department and Boulder Sheriff's Office chase this man through THREE STATES? They lost his trail in Silverbird, Utah and not heard from him since.
Shadow, You sound like an investigator and/or someone very familiar with the case. You do have information that I would not expect to find in a forum of this sort. Although I personally have little room to talk regarding things like giving too much information.

If what you are saying is indeed fact, why have they not found this man (the room-mate you speak of)? Does not someone have a photo of this room-mate that we could post on the forum --- in Florida and Louisana with all of the reconstruction - jobs are plentiful and he could be hiding right in front of us.

I just feel that this Karr is a very mixed-up but potentially danger young man who needs an attitude adjustment which he will get in prison. Regardless of if he is the killer of Jon Benet or not - He will do some serious jail time.

[The Shadow]

Professor Michael Tracey listed five "suspects" that warranted a second look. Suspect number 3 lived with the late Michael Helgoth and was his partner in SEVERAL break-ins in and near the Ramsey home. They committed the crime. Michael Helgoth owned a shirt that came from the S.anta B.arbara T.ennis C.lub and he own a pair of pants that were made in Great Britain and had the brand name Victory. They were found in the stolen van found a half block from the Ramsey home. It took the Boulder Police Department FOUR DAYS to find out this van was stolen. The killer was SEEN the night of the murder and he was described as looking like a "Homeless Santa Claus" does that sound like John Mark Karr to you? Michael Helgoth was SEEN talking to JonBenet by witnesses who had the slip opposite of the rental during the summer of 1996. As to the killer's name you will have to ask Professor Michael Tracey. All I know is that he raped and murdered JonBenet Ramsey and later murdered his partner in crime Michael Helgoth. He was even introduced to Michael's family. I would rather have too much information than to little. This man was a known biker and he left biker clothing at the crime scene of the Michael Helgoth murder.

[WatchYourLips]

Shadow, You're pretty convincing. Why do you think this guy hasn't got more press. Just because they lost him in a three state chase? That doesn't make sense.

[The Shadow]

Does anyone one know Heather H.? and did she really know Patsy Ramsey?

Michael Helgoth died with a pillow near his left side, the pillow had a bullet hole in it. If Michael Helgoth had committed suicide, why would he care if he made a noise? He would be dead soon. In a room that had been a bedroom, stolen items have been identified and traced to several break-ins in or near the Ramsey neighborhood. This is why Michael Helgoth died. Honor Among Thieves as the old saying goes. A right handed man commits suicide with his LEFT hand? Michael Helgoth had a rather extensive juvenile and adult rap sheet. He owned at least FIVE Tazer/stun guns. He owned at least one pair of Hi-Tec hiking boots. He wrote the ransom note. He left behind several note books that will confirm this. BOTH killers had worked at this marina, but on two different sailboats. If Michael Helgoth was not a suspect then why did the Boulder Police Department spend over 3 and a half hours here taking down names and addresses of family, friends, employees etc? Michael's roommate left UNIDENTIFIED fingerprints on Burke Ramsey's baseball bat. I'm certain he has a previous conviction record. They should run his prints through the F.B.I. Database

[MsCooper]

Shadow, I too would like to know why we have not read in the news and why there has been no mention of this man you speak of in any of the documentaries or news magazine. Perhaps I have tunnel vision and have been so caught up in my own search that I have been missing all of this. I lived in CO and in GA and have followed the case.

What you are saying is very interesting - please give us some news articles, magazine articles or TV programs that we might be able to review. If this is information is true, then the FBI bungled JonBenet's murder as they have "Messed" up other investigations.

I have stated multiple times that the FBI has neither the man power nor financial resources to conduct investigations. The personnel they are hiring think they can get on the computer and solve a crime without putting the leg work into the investigation. I can personally say I have experience this lack of pride or accomplishment. They also go public with information they claim to have found when it was actually found by a news reporter and a woman with no computer (armed only with a telephone). The FBI agent actually denied records the woman had in black and white documentation and judicial records and when the FBI had to go public the agent took credit for these things on national TV.

I believe you are a family member who has privey to information that the rest of the world does not...tell us all you know. I personally think Karr will go down for this crime even if he didn't do it.......! The FBI has a patsy now to take the heat off them.

[The Shadow]

The F.B.I. can only do so much when they have had evidence withheld from them. I have seen the crime scene evidence. Michael Tracey mentions Michael Helgoth's roommate as Suspect # 3. Police reports. Steve Thomas' Partner writing a book and admitting several mistakes were made. The description of the killer who was seen looking like a "homeless Santa Claus"
The Police report linking the Police stakeout to a ten day investigation of the marina where both men worked.

[chilenopo]

interesting theory, The Shadow.
I don't think Karr did it.

[The Shadow]

Michael Tracey's documentary recently shown on CourtTV clearly shows evidence overlooked by the Boulder Police Department and The Boulder County Sheriff's Office. The evidence includes. . .

One pair of Hi-Tec hiking boots
One Tazer weapon, this was one of at least five owned by one of the killers, MICHAEL HELGOTH.
Michael Helgoth who has a direct line to the Ramsey family.
Michael Helgoth WROTE the ransom note!
Michael Helgoth owned a pair of Victory pants. Victory!
Michael Helgoth owned a shirt with S.B.T.C. on it.
S.anta B.arbara T.ennis C.lub is what S.B.T.C. means.
Michael Helgoth DREW Draft Quality drawings of SEVERAL floors of the Ramsey home and the drawings MATCHED EXACTLY!
The partner and roommate of Michael Helgoth attempted to rape JonBenet Ramsey and he MURDERED HER! The Boulder County Sheriff's Office pursed him through THREE STATES only to lose him in the town of SILVERBIRD, UTAH.
He had a job waiting for him, but he lost that job when he was caught STEALING FROM THE RESORT'S GUESTS! THE SAME THING HE WAS DOING IN
BOULDER, COLORADO.
This man also MURDERED MICHAEL HELGOTH! A MURDER THAT TO THIS DAY IS STILL CONSIDERED A SUICIDE! TRAVEL VOUCHERS, EXPENSE VOUCHERS, AND 97 INTER-OFFICE MEMEOS WITH 97 DIFFERENT SHERIFF OFFICES TELL ME THEY WERE LOOKING FOR AND THEN LOST JONBENET'S KILLER, A SECOND TIME!

[Jediknight1823]

KUSA out of Denver is reporting that Karr's DNA does NOT match the DNA found at the scene.

[Awsi Dooger]

KUSA out of Denver is reporting that Karr's DNA does NOT match the DNA found at the scene.

What a shock. I also heard there will be no charges filed.

As I indicated in a previous post, perhaps this will be a down the road benefit since we've never had a high profile false confession until now.

Defense counsel who argue that point on behalf of their client will be using this example for decades, guaranteed.

[Kane]

KUSA out of Denver is reporting that Karr's DNA does NOT match the DNA found at the scene.

That's not suprising to me. As much as I wanted to believe that Jon-Benet Ramsey's murder was coming close to being solved, I felt that I had to reserve judgment until there were further developments.

[LooksLikeCRicci]

CNN is reporting that Karr's DNA did not match and that charges will not be filed against him.

Interesting twist of events. He's not a murderer, he's just obsessed with JonBenet... that's so messed up.

[wiseguy182]

Well, Karr isn't exactly out of the woods yet. Reportedly, they will send him back to California so that he can answer to those child porn charges.

Here's another reason I don't think Patsy did it. JonBenet, as most of us are aware, was a beauty queen. However, what some people might not know was that Patsy herself was a beauty queen too, winning Miss West Virginia in 1977 or thereabouts. For Patsy, JonBenet was a chance to relive her childhood. I'm sure Patsy really enjoyed entering JonBenet in the pageants and such. If Pasty were to have killed JonBenet, it would be almost like killing herself.

[MsCooper]

The authorities spent so much time focusing on the parents that they let the sleazey culprit get away. Patsy did not kill that child - should she have accidently have harmed her or in a rage harmed her - she would have made her peace with God and her family prior to her death.

Cancer patients have a lot of anger and they usually resolve that anger before the end comes, unless they are taken unexpectantly. There are those who take their secrets to their grave to spare their families - I simply just do not believe she did that...she loved her children.

I can say without a doubt that Patsy did NOT kill JonBenet. If she did, the last thing she would have done would have been to tell the truth for the sake of her husband and other children, so that they would be able to go on with their lives and not have someone doubting them. She would have set them free.

[New Brandon]

There's no doubt in my mind that it was an intruder who did this. They were unable to prove that the Ramseys did it and all the evidence points to an intruder.

[Jediknight1823]

As I indicated in a previous post, perhaps this will be a down the road benefit since we've never had a high profile false confession until now.

Defense counsel who argue that point on behalf of their client will be using this example for decades, guaranteed.
This should help the false confession. I forget the guy but Unsolved Mysteries profiled it with the cop getting the confession out of him. The cop emptied his gun and layed the bullets down one by one, the guy's confession didn't match the facts.

That will be a benefit down the road, confessions are going to be looked at even more now.

Hopefully just like the Martha Moxley case, the killer is ultimately brought to justice.

[Awsi Dooger]

This should help the false confession. I forget the guy but Unsolved Mysteries profiled it with the cop getting the confession out of him. The cop emptied his gun and layed the bullets down one by one, the guy's confession didn't match the facts.

That will be a benefit down the road, confessions are going to be looked at even more now.

Hopefully just like the Martha Moxley case, the killer is ultimately brought to justice.

The one difference, of course, is the false confessions are often coerced, which this one was not. But even a voluntary and bizarre false confession like this one will help since lawyers can refer to it by name and people will have a reference point.

In the past you've had hundreds of false confessions in high profile cases like the Lindbergh kidnapping, yet when you watch the jurists after a case many of them will say things like, "why would someone falsely confess?" At least this John Karr story puts it out there as not impossible at all.

[The Shadow]

Overlooked Clues
Stolen light blue van found parked AGAINST the traffic on the SIDEWALK!
Stolen license plates on van, stolen from another van.
TWO DIFFERENT SET OF FOOT PRINTS FOUND IN RAMSEY YARD!
ONE SET HI-TEC HIKING BOOTS, SECOND SET MOTORCYCLE BOOTS.
KILLER OF JONBENET RAMSEY SEEN 5:30 P.M. "KNITTING" HE WAS TYING ROPE TOGETHER TO FORM A NET. THIS NET WAS LATER FOUND ON THE ARMS OF JONBENET RAMSEY
CORONER REPORT MENTIONS THE NET AND THE FACT IT WAS TIED BY A LEFT HANDED MAN.
MICHAEL HELGOTH WRITES RANSOM NOTE, THIS CAN BE PROVEN, HE LEFT BEHIND AMPLE AMOUNTS OF HIS HANDWRITING BEHIND.
STOLEN VAN CONTAINS SHORT PIECES OF ROPE.
PARTIAL COIL OF ROPE MATCHES ROPE USED ON JONBENET
ROLL OF DUCT TAPE TESTED AND MATCHED BY FBI IS SAME TAPE FOUND ON JONBENET.
RANSOM NOTE HAS S.B.T.C. ON IT. A WITNESS WAS QUESTIONED IN THIS CASE HE REMEMBERS GIVING SHIRT TO MICHAEL HELGOTH. MICHAEL HELGOTH ALSO OWNED VICTORY PANTS, THEY ARE MADE IN BRITAIN. bOTH THE SHIRT AND THE PANTS WERE FOUND IN THE VAN. BOULDER POLICE OFFICER FINDS THE VAN AND THE EVIDENCE AND TRIES TO REPORT IT, HE IS IGNORED.
S.B.T.C. MEANS S.ANTA B.ARBARA T.ENNIS C.LUB
MAN WHO GAVE THE SHIRT TO MICHAEL GOT IT FROM A MEMBER OF THIS CLUB.
MICHAEL HELGOTH TOOK DRAFTING IN HIGH SCHOOL, HE OWNS A DRAWING PAD THAT HAS SEVERAL DRAWINGS IN IT FROM FLOOR PLANS TO STAIR WELLS. THEY MATCH THREE LEVELS OF THE RAMSEY HOME, EXACTLY!
MICHAEL HELGOTH HAS A DIRECT CONNECTION TO THE RAMSEY FAMILY. HE WORKS AS A DECKHAND FOR THE CAPTAIN OF THE SAILBOAT JOHN RAMSEY RENTS FOR A HARMLESS FAMILY OUTING FOR SON BURKE, IT IS HIS TURN TO CHOOSE AND HE CHOOSES TO GO SAILING. SUMMER OF 1996.
MICHAEL HELGOTH IS SEEN BY PEOPLE IN THE SLIP OPPOSITE THIS SAILBOAT GETTING A LITTLE TOO FAMILIAR WITH JONBENET RAMSEY.
GETTING THE YOUNGEST CHILDREN TO CONFIDE IN HIM IS HOW HE "CASES" THE HOMES OF SOME OF BOULDER'S WEALTHEST FAMILIES. THIS IS HOW AND WHO HELGOTH COULD STEAL FROM WITHOUT UNFORESEEN TROUBLE.
MAN SEEN IN VAN DESCRIBED BY WITNESS AS LOOKING LIKE A HOMELESS SANTA CLAUS, AT THAT TIME HE WAS! BOTH KILLERS WERE LIVING IN THE VAN UNTIL THE BRAKES FAILED. HOMELESS AGAIN!
SANTA CLAUS (SUSPECT 3 ACCORDING TO PROFESSOR MICHAEL TRACEY) ALSO WORKS IN THE SAME MARINA.
THE GARROTE HAS COMPLICATED KNOTS THAT ARE TIED TOGETHER INSTANLY.
JONBENET IS HEARD SCREAMING AT 10:15 P.M. BY A NEIGHBOR. SHE WAS HIT WITH TAZER WEAPON. MICHAEL HELGOTH OWNED AT LEAST FIVE OF THESE.
CRIME SCENE PHOTOGRAPHS OF MICHAEL HELGOTH "SUICIDE" SHOW HI-TEC HIKING BOOTS AND ONE OF THE TAZER WEAPONS NEXT TO HIS CORPSE.

[LooksLikeCRicci]

Man, I am dying to know where you get your information.... it's really quite compelling.

[The Shadow]

Professor Michael Tracey knows the killer of JonBenet Ramsey.

He said there was a small list of "5 possible suspects". Suspect 3 is the rapist/killer of JonBenet Ramsey. He was a known associate of the late Michael Helgoth whom he later murdered. Professor Michael Tracey knows his name! And all we have to do to get it, is simply to ask him! Michael left two pieces of his clothing in the light blue van that was stolen. Victory! was taken from the brand name of his pants. S.B.T.C. was taken from a shirt he owned. S.anta B.arbara T.ennis C.lub from Santa Barbara, California. Both were from the stolen van. Michael Helgoth WROTE the strange ransom note.
Suspect 3 is the killer of BOTH JonBenet Ramsey AND Michael Helgoth, accomplice. I see the trail of clues EVERYONE ELSE MISSED OR I SEE THE MISTAKES THEY ARE COVERING UP.

[Awsi Dooger]

Professor Michael Tracey knows his name! And all we have to do to get it, is simply to ask him!

This is a less complicated case than I thought

[The Shadow]

Boulder County D.A. Mary Lacy only has to ask the name of the person Michael Tracey mentioned as Suspect Number 3. He was noted as an accomplice of Michael Helgoth. He is the rapist/killer of JonBenet Ramsey. Both men worked at the Marina where John Ramsey rented a sailboat. The Boulder County Sheriff's Office pursued the man through three states only to lose him in Silverbird, Utah. This embarrassing mistake among others is why nobody wants to see this case looked into. Michael Helgoth wrote the ransom note and drew up the floor plans to the Ramsey home all of this told to him by a rather naive JonBenet Ramsey. The poor thing didn't know how dangerous he was.

[WatchYourLips]

Boulder County D.A. Mary Lacy only has to ask the name of the person Michael Tracey mentioned as Suspect Number 3. He was noted as an accomplice of Michael Helgoth. He is the rapist/killer of JonBenet Ramsey. Both men worked at the Marina where John Ramsey rented a sailboat. The Boulder County Sheriff's Office pursued the man through three states only to lose him in Silverbird, Utah. This embarrassing mistake among others is why nobody wants to see this case looked into. Michael Helgoth wrote the ransom note and drew up the floor plans to the Ramsey home all of this told to him by a rather naive JonBenet Ramsey. The poor thing didn't know how dangerous he was.

Your theory is very interesting, but why would "they" (whoever they is) give up just because they lost him in Silverbird, Utah. Would they really just give up because of embarassment? That doesn't make sense to me. :confused: