The Freedon

[RyanD.]

Anybody like to throw in their two cents about what may have happened. Obviously she is probably dead, but I'm curious what others might think happened.

[Awsi Dooger]

I think she was DB Cooper

Sorry for the excess. Maybe crystaldawn or someone with unusual clout and no pout can eliminate two of the three identical threads.

[Dislimb]

I think she was DB Cooper

I have no reason to suspect otherwise. :crazy:

[crystaldawn]

I think she was DB Cooper

Sorry for the excess. Maybe crystaldawn or someone with unusual clout and no pout can eliminate two of the three identical threads.

No problem although it was a toss up since I noticed that you had three different posts on the threads. One that said she's still alive, one that said she's dead and one that she was DB Cooper. :cuckoo :lol: I did opt to preserve the DB Cooper one though. Which brings me to an observation. You seem to have a lot of info about the case.....maybe YOU are in fact DB Cooper cleverly disguised as Awsi Dooger, forum veteran. :eek:

Also about Lisa Bishop and the Freedon. Its very possible she was killed soon after but I also think the whole "white slavery" angle is a possibility too.

[Awsi Dooger]

No problem although it was a toss up since I noticed that you had three different posts on the threads. One that said she's still alive, one that said she's dead and one that she was DB Cooper. :cuckoo :lol: I did opt to preserve the DB Cooper one though. Which brings me to an observation. You seem to have a lot of info about the case.....maybe YOU are in fact DB Cooper cleverly disguised as Awsi Dooger, forum veteran. :eek:

I had immense partial confidence you would delete the correct pair, crystaldawn. Although you could have devilishly made me look stupid by preserving the one saying she was still alive.:lol:

DB Cooper, now that's one major felony I have an alibi for, regardless of trivia like a DNA match. Me = other side of the country and mostly unprepared to skyjack, since I was in elementary school. Plus I would have demanded a hell of a lot more than $200,000.

[skunk ape]

I think she is probably trapped in some country, possibly Cuba as a slave prostitute.

[Bleedingheart]

Is there any links about this case , i have searched all over the net and found none but i also believe the White Slavery theory

[kane7474]

I think she is probably trapped in some country, possibly Cuba as a slave prostitute.
I beileve also she was sold as a sex slave. Kinda odd to me she meets a guy in her boyfreinds bar then takes off with him.

[skunk ape]

I beileve also she was sold as a sex slave. Kinda odd to me she meets a guy in her boyfreinds bar then takes off with him.

Yeah, to me the whole thing smells foul. Even fouler than I, skunk ape.

[ForeverPluto]

I thought they said in that seggie that the ship was somehow linked to drugs. I think she is still alive too but often you hear about people who get taken in as prisoners in other countries so I think Lisa's weirdo boyfriend could have framed for the drugs and causing her to be unjustly arrested in the foriegn country.

[hovaslash]

It was a mission with considerable dangers even if the operation was totally on the up-and-up, which is unlikely. So the rewards of whatever the real mission of the voyage were had to have greatly outweighed the dangers.
Furthermore, why would a supposedly happy couple just decide it would good for their relationship if one of them went on a mission of an indefinite time period with a shady person they hardly knew? They only thing I can see is that all 3 parties were hoping to profit greatly when it was all said and done.

[ForeverPluto]

I mentioned this in another post but UM never really elaborated if Florian's background was ever looked into. Florian may not have even been his real name. Also, I got the feeling that Lisa may not have been Florian's only victim. I think he's probably lured a lot of other women like Lisa on trips such as these. In any case, I think the key to finding Lisa is to dig up more about Florian or whatever his "real" name is...

[Todd Mueller]

I don't know why, but the name "Freedon" always bugged me. Like someone wanted "Freedom" but couldn't spell. (They might even have mentioned it in the original story, I don't remember. Still bugs me though.)

I also think the sex slave angle is very possible. Chills me to think of some poor woman having to go through that, yet I know it happens. :(

[cuba_libre]

That segment ranked as one of the more interesting I'd seen. I felt so sad for her parents....

[jmantel02]

I remember in the original broadcast they talked about the Freedon being sighted somewhere in the Carib [U]after[U] she had disappeared. Does anyone remember this or have a link to the episode?

White slavery would not surprise me, but she could also just have been raped and murdered when she reached Haiti. I have been to that country and I can tell you that someone like her would immediately be targeted. Not the place you want to go.

[Necco]

Do we know where Christopher Chichester was during this time?
:lol:

[MysteryStacks]

another old post lol BUT to me she was sold as a slave to someone...Theres just no explanation why the ship would be south of Cuba when they were supposed to go straight to Haiti. Obvious foul play here and very sad for the parents to deal with

[Mastermind]

another old post lol BUT to me she was sold as a slave to someone...Theres just no explanation why the ship would be south of Cuba when they were supposed to go straight to Haiti. Obvious foul play here and very sad for the parents to deal with

Maybe the Cuban navy seized the boat and killed the crew thinking they were some smuggling ring or spy ship.

[soilentgreen]

I'm not certain that Lisa alone disappeared and the eyewitness reports of Florian and the Freedon can't be verified. Finding Phillipe (the man who chartered the Freedon for that particular run) may or may not help in determining what happened.

Florian was wanting to postpone the trip, due to inclement weather, but Lisa told him she would be unable to travel at a later time and he relented. Why attempt to postpone the voyage, if his intent was to kidnap or murder her? Why leave his things with Phillipe's girlfriend and never pick them up?

Families of the Haitian crew members also reported them to be missing. I do believe Florian was involved in something more shady than transporting bicycles to Haiti, but it can't be determined if this contributed to the Freedon's fate. Either the Freedon sank at sea or the entire crew was murdered or shanghaied by another ship, who (possibly) took her into port.

[justins5256]

I can't recall, but was it mentioned how large the crew was? Regardless, the important thing to remember is we have not only Lisa Bishop and Florian missing here, but the whole crew as well. This is an entire group of people who presumably never contacted friends or family ever again after this incident with the Freedon.

That leads me to believe that whatever caused the disappearance of the Freedon affected all of them - the ship sank, or was perhaps commandeered by pirates and everyone onboard was murdered.

You would think if Lisa fell victim to a white slavery ring, some of the other people involved (the crew or Florian) would surface somewhere and could be questioned.

[nohwheregirl]

Florian was wanting to postpone the trip, due to inclement weather, but Lisa told him she would be unable to travel at a later time and he relented. Why attempt to postpone the voyage, if his intent was to kidnap or murder her? Why leave his things with Phillipe's girlfriend and never pick them up?

Families of the Haitian crew members also reported them to be missing....
Wait. Where did you get this information? Was it in the segment? I don't remember anything about Florian wanting to delay the trip or the Haitian crew members.

[rhzunam]

Wait. Where did you get this information? Was it in the segment? I don't remember anything about Florian wanting to delay the trip or the Haitian crew members.

Yeah I want to know more about this. If the whole Haitian crew dissapeared then this is huge.

[killgas20]

Wait. Where did you get this information? Was it in the segment? I don't remember anything about Florian wanting to delay the trip or the Haitian crew members.

RS says something about the weather in the segment and the water was choppy. There is also a reinactment scene about delaying the voyage.

[soilentgreen]

Where did you get this information? Was it in the segment? I don't remember anything about Florian wanting to delay the trip or the Haitian crew members.

It's from the segment. Prior to leaving, Lisa called her family and notified them Florian considered delaying the departure, but relented when she told him that if they didn't go then she wouldn't be able to go at all.

My mistake: The U.S. Coast Guard representative stated that relatives of people onboard the Freedon contacted them (so this does not necessarily indicate that any of the families of the seven Haitian crew members contacted them). He may simply be referring to Lisa's family. The Coast Guard also contacted the Haitian port authorities (as well as various Caribbean port authorities) and found no information on the Freedon.

[justins5256]

It's from the segment. Prior to leaving, Lisa called her family and notified them Florian considered delaying the departure, but relented when she told him that if they didn't go then she wouldn't be able to go at all.

My mistake: The U.S. Coast Guard representative stated that relatives of people onboard the Freedon contacted them (so this does not necessarily indicate that any of the families of the seven Haitian crew members contacted them). He may simply be referring to Lisa's family. The Coast Guard also contacted the Haitian port authorities (as well as various Caribbean port authorities) and found no information on the Freedon.

I believe that RS mentioned at the end of the segment that the Haitian crew members were missing as well. I always thought it odd that they didn't at a minimum scroll through the names of these men.

Another interesting clue was the sightings of the Freedon at different ports after the "disappearance". This would indicate to me that the ship was likely commandeered and the crew and possibly Florian and Lisa Bishop murdered.

It wasn't uncommon for ships in that part of the Caribbean to be commandeered and used once or twice for drug runs.

[rhzunam]

If the Hatian crew is missing then it's huge. And if UM knew then it's a shame that they didn't make it a bigger part of the deal even knowing about Lisa's story. I would think it would be another part of the "american white women are the most important thing ever" attitude. Sure I know the case was about Lisa and I don't really think they should have also done about the case about them, but they are human being and a huge part of the case. If they disappeared then the case turns because then cases like the White Slavery theory and others should be thrown out the window. If they dissapered the the case becomes, the dissapearance of all the freedon passengers, not just the dissapearance of Lisa like it was made out to be.

[Mastermind]

If the Hatian crew is missing then it's huge. And if UM knew then it's a shame that they didn't make it a bigger part of the deal even knowing about Lisa's story. I would think it would be another part of the "american white women are the most important thing ever" attitude.

Totally agree! Those Haitian crewman had to do on that boat, Lisa had a choice.

The crewman should be listed on unsolved.com as much as Lisa Bishop should.

Hell someone in America might have seen or knows one of the crew members. That could break the case too.

[rhzunam]

And in the day I discuss the Haitian crewmembers, a horrible earthquake hits Haiti and destroys great part of Port Au Prince. This is horrid.

[Drakken]

I beileve also she was sold as a sex slave. Kinda odd to me she meets a guy in her boyfreinds bar then takes off with him.

Poor parents, and poor boyfriend Paul Cornwell as well, as I don't believe for a second that the relation between Lisa Bishop and that cool dude Florian was anything else than of a sexual/romantic nature.

Platonic, between him and her? Gimme a break! That's obvious like a nose in the middle of the face that she was planning to replace the boyfriend by that German dude. Especially that, before leaving, she was adamant to her boyfriend that there was "nothing" special with Florian. Yeah right, that sounds too much like a cheating girl saying that the dude is "just a friend", just to alleviate suspicions, when in fact she is regularly giving him a treat behind the boyfriend's back. And it could be even courtship, not necessarily a full affair. Perhaps Lisa was swayed by Florian and was in love with him, even though it was not still consumated. The point was, Paul was out without him knowing, and Florian was in. The trip was just the pretense to do it away from Paul in a romantic setting.

If Paul had known beforehand (or, more snarkily, had been less naive), he would have made a hell of scene and probably kicked Florian's butt as soon as he could, which was bad mojo since it would have made a fuss between Lisa and her family, between Florian and her family, and could even have endangered the trip or pushed it further.

Better for him to suspect nothing and for her to leave in tranquility, with Florian, and away from Paul enough to allow her to cut the relationship short in due time. And if it doesn't work between her and Florian (aside, of course, him getting rid of her, which is the hypothesis I privilege here), she comes back and resumes the relationship as if nothing has happened, with plausible deniability. He was getting the short stick of the whole affair, no pun intended.

If nothing special between them, and if her plans were so serious, then why leave that way on a boat (which was really only a patched-up sieve), out of the blue, for some sudden journalistic plan organized over a bar table, with a total stranger you've just met in your own boyfriend's bar? Even as a beginning freelance reporter, why not pass throughout journalistic contacts? Why not take the plane instead? Why not organize it with trustworthy friends instead?

To me, it sounds just like a disguise for her to leave the boyfriend for the mysterious, yet sexy Florian, on a romantic Carribean cruise. A quite common situation, really, if you take put the journalistic dream, the boat, and the Carribeans. Not only his girlfriend was probably shagging that dude behind his back for some time before her departure, not only she left him planted like a cuckold for some crazed Caribbean trip with her probable lover under the pretense of a journalistic travel, but he, like her family, were left to pick up the pieces and cope with the distress and the anguish of her disappereance.

But of course, do not expect UM to present the story that way. It makes the potential victim a little less sympathetic. Although I must admit, to the show's credit, that the segment did hint slightly at that possibility by putting so much emphasis on Florian as a possible suspect.

Not that I say that Lisa Bishop deserved to disappear and meet with foul play. However, the possibility of Lisa Bishop leaving off with a "Ira Einhorn" type of seducer on a boat of his own, totally under his control, leads me to believe that Florian should not be layed off so easily as a victim, when he looks like the typical player exploiting a girl's social conscience to pull her away from her boyfriend and family.

And it's so easy on a boat to get rid of a troublesome lover in the middle of the Atlantic, after you are done with her. Given that he was actually spotted and recognized in the same port than the Freedon was reported docked weeks after its disapperance, with no Lisa Bishop around, it makes him at least a person of interest in the whole affair.

[rhzunam]

Poor parents, and poor boyfriend Paul Cornwell as well, as I don't believe for a second that the relation between Lisa Bishop and that cool dude Florian was anything else than of a sexual/romantic nature.

Platonic, between him and her? Gimme a break! That's obvious like a nose in the middle of the face that she was planning to replace the boyfriend by that German dude. Especially that, before leaving, she was adamant to her boyfriend that there was "nothing" special with Florian. Yeah right, that sounds too much like a cheating girl saying that the dude is "just a friend", just to alleviate suspicions, when in fact she is regularly giving him a treat behind the boyfriend's back. And it could be even courtship, not necessarily a full affair. Perhaps Lisa was swayed by Florian and was in love with him, even though it was not still consumated. The point was, Paul was out without him knowing, and Florian was in. The trip was just the pretense to do it away from Paul in a romantic setting.

If Paul had known beforehand (or, more snarkily, had been less naive), he would have made a hell of scene and probably kicked Florian's butt as soon as he could, which was bad mojo since it would have made a fuss between Lisa and her family, between Florian and her family, and could even have endangered the trip or pushed it further.

Better for him to suspect nothing and for her to leave in tranquility, with Florian, and away from Paul enough to allow her to cut the relationship short in due time. And if it doesn't work between her and Florian (aside, of course, him getting rid of her, which is the hypothesis I privilege here), she comes back and resumes the relationship as if nothing has happened, with plausible deniability. He was getting the short stick of the whole affair, no pun intended.

If nothing special between them, and if her plans were so serious, then why leave that way on a boat (which was really only a patched-up sieve), out of the blue, for some sudden journalistic plan organized over a bar table, with a total stranger you've just met in your own boyfriend's bar? Even as a beginning freelance reporter, why not pass throughout journalistic contacts? Why not take the plane instead? Why not organize it with trustworthy friends instead?

To me, it sounds just like a disguise for her to leave the boyfriend for the mysterious, yet sexy Florian, on a romantic Carribean cruise. A quite common situation, really, if you take put the journalistic dream, the boat, and the Carribeans. Not only his girlfriend was probably shagging that dude behind his back for some time before her departure, not only she left him planted like a cuckold for some crazed Caribbean trip with her probable lover under the pretense of a journalistic travel, but he, like her family, were left to pick up the pieces and cope with the distress and the anguish of her disappereance.

But of course, do not expect UM to present the story that way. It makes the potential victim a little less sympathetic. Although I must admit, to the show's credit, that the segment did hint slightly at that possibility by putting so much emphasis on Florian as a possible suspect.

Not that I say that Lisa Bishop deserved to disappear and meet with foul play. However, the possibility of Lisa Bishop leaving off with a "Ira Einhorn" type of seducer on a boat of his own, totally under his control, leads me to believe that Florian should not be layed off so easily as a victim, when he looks like the typical player exploiting a girl's social conscience to pull her away from her boyfriend and family.

And it's so easy on a boat to get rid of a troublesome lover in the middle of the Atlantic, after you are done with her. Given that he was actually spotted and recognized in the same port than the Freedon was reported docked weeks after its disapperance, with no Lisa Bishop around, it makes him at least a person of interest in the whole affair.

What about the Haitian crew?

[Drakken]

What about the Haitian crew?

Truthfully, it's irrelevant. The segment didn't focus on the so-called Haitian crew, but on Lisa Bishop having vanished from the surface of the Earth without giving any news of her whereabouts, either to her family or to Paul Cornwell, for years.

And why should we care about them? She is the only possible victim of foul play here, and nothing leads us to believe that the Freedon was in any real trouble that endangered the lives of the whole crew and the passengers.

If the Freedon was used for smuggling operations, then the crew were either accomplices or on the payroll of either Florian or the boat's owner. In either case, unless they were murdered as well or the ship truely sank with all hands down (which I don't believe happened), odds are very good that they are still alive and well somewhere in the Caribbean. At least, their odds are way, way better than Lisa's.

That Florian was spotted being in Gran Cayman Island when the Freedon was docked there, weeks after its reported disapperance, makes the possibility of a mutiny or a hostile takeover unlikely. I believe Florian was still as much in control of the Freedon before than after.

We shouldn't be losing the focus here. This is not the Casey Nicole case. The story isn't on the possible fate of some dozen alien crew members from somewhere in the Caribbean, but on Lisa Bishop, the only one who might have been victim of foul play either by being sold, kept against her will, or murdered.

[soilentgreen]

Somewhat off topic, but apparently Paul Cornwell's club was destroyed by fire while he was in the Caribbean searching for the Freedon. Some homeless people had broken into the club and started a fire; four of them were killed. It also says that Lisa was a bartender at his club (something not mentioned in the UM segment). Scroll down to just past the middle of the page:

http://www.atlantamusicmuseum.com/CLUBS.html

[rhzunam]

Truthfully, it's irrelevant. The segment didn't focus on the so-called Haitian crew, but on Lisa Bishop having vanished from the surface of the Earth without giving any news of her whereabouts, either to her family or to Paul Cornwell, for years.

And why should we care about them? She is the only possible victim of foul play here, and nothing leads us to believe that the Freedon was in any real trouble that endangered the lives of the whole crew and the passengers.

If the Freedon was used for smuggling operations, then the crew were either accomplices or on the payroll of either Florian or the boat's owner. In either case, unless they were murdered as well or the ship truely sank with all hands down (which I don't believe happened), odds are very good that they are still alive and well somewhere in the Caribbean. At least, their odds are way, way better than Lisa's.

That Florian was spotted being in Gran Cayman Island when the Freedon was docked there, weeks after its reported disapperance, makes the possibility of a mutiny or a hostile takeover unlikely. I believe Florian was still as much in control of the Freedon before than after.

We shouldn't be losing the focus here. This is not the Casey Nicole case. The story isn't on the possible fate of some dozen alien crew members from somewhere in the Caribbean, but on Lisa Bishop, the only one who might have been victim of foul play either by being sold, kept against her will, or murdered.

WTF? What a disgusting post.

First off if you will read my other posts about the case, there is the possibility (not totally confirmed) that the family members of the Haitian crew also reported them missing. Second I agreed that it was alright that the focus on UM was on Bishop but if the Haitian crew dissapeared it changes EVERYTHING. That's why I said what about them. If the crew dissapeared, why is it that Lisa is the only one worth worrying for? Why is she the only possible victim of foul play? What does it matter that they are "alien crew members"? I find there are a lot of reasons why we should care about them if they dissapeared even if they were just Haitian crew members. You're being totally dismissive of them which not only does it look prejudiced but also hampers the investigation because if the whole crew dissapeared (as some reports have surfaced) then the possibility of white slavery or that it was just a ruse to kidnap her, should be severely discounted.

[justins5256]

Truthfully, it's irrelevant.

SNIP.

It's "irrelevant" to you because it doesn't fit your theory.

However, the fact remains that seven people are unaccounted for in addition to Lisa Bishop and Florian. These are men who never contacted friends or family again after the incident with the Freedon. The fact that the crew is missing too highly suggests that whatever caused the disappearance of the Freedon affected everyone, not just Lisa Bishop and Florian.

[Mastermind]

And why should we care about them?

Because they
1. Could be potential witnesses if found.
2. Potential suspects to murder
3. They are human beings whose flives are just a important as Lisa.
4. they may be still active involved in more illegal activities.

[killgas20]

Somewhat off topic, but apparently Paul Cornwell's club was destroyed by fire while he was in the Caribbean searching for the Freedon. Some homeless people had broken into the club and started a fire; four of them were killed. It also says that Lisa was a bartender at his club (something not mentioned in the UM segment). Scroll down to just past the middle of the page:

http://www.atlantamusicmuseum.com/CLUBS.html

Interesting. At the risk of continuing a threadjack, the UM reenactment portrayed Cornwell's bar as some trendy night club. According the link, it was anything but that. Looks as though it was a happenin' place for the punk rock scene back in the 80's.

[Drakken]

SNIP.

It's "irrelevant" to you because it doesn't fit your theory.

However, the fact remains that seven people are unaccounted for in addition to Lisa Bishop and Florian. These are men who never contacted friends or family again after the incident with the Freedon. The fact that the crew is missing too highly suggests that whatever caused the disappearance of the Freedon affected everyone, not just Lisa Bishop and Florian.

"My" theory is the UM's segment's main theory. But I rewatched the segment, things are more complicated than I thought at first.

The one thing that bothered me, that something happened that wasn't planned, was Florian's personal belongings stored and packed at Philippe's girlfriend's house. Paul went to fetch them when he came back from Grand Cayman to Atlanta, and Philippe was the one who chartered the Freedon. It was Philippe's former girlfriend who told Paul that he was involved in large-scale smuggling operations.

This man, Philippe, was seen with Florian at Grand Cayman weeks after the ship's disappearance. If Florian was victim of foul play, why were they spotted in Grand Cayman Island while the Freedon was docked there, several weeks after it was reported missing?

Although, Lisa's father does acknowledge that the ship might have been taken and everyone killed on board, that doesn't explain why Florian and Philippe were spotted in Grand Cayman. Why would they have been spared, and not the rest of the crew? Why would Florian and Philippe be still alive?

If the ship has been victim of piracy and they were smuggling drugs, one possibility that I see is that these two ransomed themselves by offering Lisa Bishop to the pirates as a ransom to stay alive, and it worked. Caribbean pirates do not kill anyone on sight on ships anymore, it's bad publicity. However, perhaps Florian and Philippe didn't know that. If Florian and Philippe were spared, chances are the crew members were too. Or, possibly, they mutined and defected to the attackers, and the pirates towed them to Grand Cayman Island and leave the both of them there with the ship.

That is, of course, if the crew members weren't the problem in the first place. But I still can't explain any "hostile outsider" or "mutiny" theory if Florian, Philippe, and the Freedon were in the same port together. The boat still needs a crew to move around, and pirates would simply take the boat over and dump the guys somewhere.

UM does faintly wonder about the fate of the ship's crew at the end, and not only Lisa Bishop's fate. I didn't remember that part in the end, and so I didn't take it into account and my reply as to their fate might have been harsh or downward jerkass. For this, I apologize. But I am a heartless bastard at times, it makes my charm. :p

And compared to many, many people, I do accept that my "theory" might be wrong and accept all new information. :crazy:

[kadrmas15]

Yeah Paul Cornwell, well I will put it this way, I did some research into his background and to be honest even in the segment, the guy came off to me as a sleaze. What Lisa Bishop saw in this guy I do not know. Cornwell is now 58 years old and is basically a member of the Georgia Green Party and a marijuana legalization activist. The guy kind of reminds me of Ira Einhorn. No I am not calling Cornwell a killer because he is not but in terms of his personality, he just thinks or seems to think he is a lot better than what he really is. http://atlanta.creativeloafing.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A16593

[soilentgreen]

But I still can't explain any "hostile outsider" or "mutiny" theory if Florian, Philippe, and the Freedon were in the same port together.


That's another issue for me besides the fate of the Haitian crew: were the sightings of Florian and Phillipe credible in any way? It's possible the two had previously been regulars on the island or had resided in Grand Cayman, so the reports may have been partially reliable, but inaccurate about the time period. Even the sighting of the Freedon may be incorrect (wrong about the time or wrong completely, similar to Lisa Kimmel's car)

I'm curious if Phillipe's girlfriend provided any further information about him (his full name, or places of residence). UM makes no mention if Phillipe was on the Freedon when she left. Finding him could help determine if the Freedon's cargo (drugs?) ever arrived; finding Florian and the crew alive would put to rest any lost at sea/hijacking theories.

[egswanso]

IMO, the segment does not present enough information about "Felipe/Philippe" to judge the credibility of his GF's story (it doesn't even show his picture, which is odd considering it was mentioned in the segment); nor can the sighting of Felipe and Florian in the Caymans be given much weight, given the general unreliability of "eyewitness" accounts.

Given that no-one from the boat's ever been seen or heard from again, it's very likely the ship went down with all hands lost.

[Mastermind]

Given that no-one from the boat's ever been seen or heard from again, it's very likely the ship went down with all hands lost.

Not necessarily, they could be somewhere in Latin America.

1.Keep in mind that many of these countries are third world. Very easy for them to disappear and keep a low profile.

2. Being that there is illegal activity, there is reason to not be heard from.

3. Some of them may be in jail even to this day.

[egswanso]

Not necessarily, they could be somewhere in Latin America.

1.Keep in mind that many of these countries are third world. Very easy for them to disappear and keep a low profile.

2. Being that there is illegal activity, there is reason to not be heard from.

3. Some of them may be in jail even to this day.

Sure. Of course, they could also be on an alien spaceship.

The reality is that we just don't have solid enough evidence to assume "illegal activity," we don't even have the names of the crew. If there was actual evidence to suggest the Freedon was involved in some illegal activity, I suppose it's more plausible, but all we have is hearsay from an unknown woman who was supposedly involved with an unknown individual who supposedly chartered the boat.

I do agree with the segment that the key is Florian - if he's still alive, the chances something very bad happened to Lisa is very probable; but he doesn't appear to have popped up in 20 years. If he wasn't dead, I think he would have, somewhere, sometime.

[Mastermind]

Sure. Of course, they could also be on an alien spaceship.

So could Charlotte Pollis and Tammy Lynn Leppert and DB Cooper.

I could call NASA to search for them but there are other more likely posibilities.

The goal of this investigation is to find the missing people.
Maybe they sunk or maybe there was illegal activity. Both theories could be argued till doomsday and each could be completely debunked if
a. the remains of the boat were found
b. members of the crew are found alive (possible even Lisa and Florian)

This is really about which direction to investigate for more clues.

You believe the boat is sunk, so that direction requires a search for the remains.

Others believe there might have been foul play, in which we need to search for the crew and possibly Florian.

Neither investigation path need to be mutually exclusive, BTW.
Nothing saying both paths cannot be investigated.


I do agree with the segment that the key is Florian - if he's still alive, the chances something very bad happened to Lisa is very probable; but he doesn't appear to have popped up in 20 years. If he wasn't dead, I think he would have, somewhere, sometime.

I could be wrong but wasn't Florian involved in illegal activity at some point in his life.

[egswanso]

So could Charlotte Pollis and Tammy Lynn Leppert and DB Cooper.

I could call NASA to search for them but there are other more likely posibilities.

The goal of this investigation is to find the missing people.
Maybe they sunk or maybe there was illegal activity. Both theories could be argued till doomsday and each could be completely debunked if
a. the remains of the boat were found
b. members of the crew are found alive (possible even Lisa and Florian)

This is really about which direction to investigate for more clues.

You believe the boat is sunk, so that direction requires a search for the remains.

Others believe there might have been foul play, in which we need to search for the crew and possibly Florian.

Neither investigation path need to be mutually exclusive, BTW.
Nothing saying both paths cannot be investigated.

I could be wrong but wasn't Florian involved in illegal activity at some point in his life.

It's not practical to search for the sunken remains, methinks; if it's ever found, it's likely to be by accident, like most wrecks. There's just too much ocean out there.

I absolutely agree that LE should keep looking for Florian; at the very least, his passport, etc., need to be flagged. If he does come up anywhere, he's immediately the prime suspect. Same with the crew.

I don't think the segment said anything about Florian's past re: illegal activity; it's certainly possible, though.

[Mastermind]

It's not practical to search for the sunken remains, methinks

Why not?

There have been underwater searches done for the Leibling and the Cassie?

There are plenty of divers who are doing sea research, exploring and treasure hunting. Divers are constantly looking for wrecks all the time in that area.

[egswanso]

Why not?

There have been underwater searches done for the Leibling and the Cassie?

There are plenty of divers who are doing sea research, exploring and treasure hunting. Divers are constantly looking for wrecks all the time in that area.

Cost and man-power.

I'm not talking about divers and the like who might stumble across it - that's the accidental discovery I was talking about before.

That's very, very different from an organized, systematic underwater archaeological exploration conducted by a government or private archaeological entity. That's a multi-million dollar proposition, if not more, requiring teams of underwater archaeologists working for months, if not years.

[rhzunam]

Why not?

There have been underwater searches done for the Leibling and the Cassie?

There are plenty of divers who are doing sea research, exploring and treasure hunting. Divers are constantly looking for wrecks all the time in that area.

They wouldn't even know where to search. The ocean is huge, the case happened years ago and they also have no clue where it went down. A search in the ocean is not feasible.

[Mastermind]

They wouldn't even know where to search. The ocean is huge, the case happened years ago and they also have no clue where it went down. A search in the ocean is not feasible.

Not if your looking for something else in the first place.

[Kyte]

I'm pretty damn sure that the 7 Haitian crew members are still alive and had something to do with Lisa Bishop's death. Obviously they were involved in the smuggling ring. It isn't hard for people to keep low profiles in third world countries. I just wish UM would have clarified better if families besides Lisa Bishops' contacted the coast guard about their missing.

IMO Felipe's girlfriend should have been under surveillance, and we should be after Felipe as much as we are after Florian. The Freedon is still in the seas I'm sure, but just under a different name, and I know in my heart that Lisa wasn't the first or last victim of Florian's.

[Mastermind]

IMO Felipe's girlfriend should have been under surveillance, and we should be after Felipe as much as we are after Florian. The Freedon is still in the seas I'm sure, but just under a different name, and I know in my heart that Lisa wasn't the first or last victim of Florian's.

The girlfriend may under surveliance or even in jail for other reasons.

It isn't hard for people to keep low profiles in third world countries.

Exactly. Lisa, herself, could keep a low profile and still be living there.

[egswanso]

What are you guys talking about re: "keeping a low profile in third world countries"?

If you mean that the Haitian crew-members could "keep a low profile" in Haiti, sure. You'd have to presume they wouldn't contact their families, but sure, I'd buy that it's pretty easy for a Haitian to hide in Haiti.

As to Florian and Lisa, I don't think they'd "blend" well in Haiti and they'd be pretty noteworthy in most of the Caribbean. Someone could, I'm sure, pay off the authorities to keep them off you, but these are small countries where foreigners (especially white ones) stand out.

There's alot of assumptions going on here re: serious smuggling and/or criminal activity (drugs, weapons, etc.), when there is absolutely no real evidence of the same.

[Mastermind]

As to Florian and Lisa, I don't think they'd "blend" well in Haiti and they'd be pretty noteworthy in most of the Caribbean. Someone could, I'm sure, pay off the authorities to keep them off you, but these are small countries where foreigners (especially white ones) stand out.

1. There are more than a few lighter complexion people living in Haiti. Plenty of caucasians as well. They blend in perfectly. In fact there are several French people living in Haiti. Not to mention that the Dominican Republic is a hop skip and a jump away.

2. Why do you think they would be in just Haiti? There are several other countries in the Carribean and South America.

3. Sadly it's probably even easier to hide in Haiti now. It was pretty easy before considering how inept and corrupt the island police are.

4. There are so many parts of Haiti that one can live in without being in contact with the outside world. Florian could be living in a shack in the hills for all we know.

There's alot of assumptions going on here re: serious smuggling and/or criminal activity (drugs, weapons, etc.), when there is absolutely no real evidence of the same.

Nor is there any evidence that the boat sunk either.

[rhzunam]

Not if your looking for something else in the first place.

So what are you saying? That the chances are good if people luck out and end up discovering it while looking for something else? We have to rely on luck now? What's your point?

[egswanso]

Of course there's no direct evidence it sunk, otherwise it wouldn't be an unsolved mystery.

There's only the circumstantial evidence that: (1) they were on a boat; (2) the boat was in the ocean; (3) boats sink in the ocean; (4) they didn't make it to their destination; (5) they have never (for 20 some-odd years) been seen again; (6) the boat has never been seen again.

Occam's razor. We need no other assumptions to say it sunk with all hands. It doesn't make it so, with certainly, of course, but the simplest explanation is usually the correct one.

[Mastermind]

So what are you saying? That the chances are good if people luck out and end up discovering it while looking for something else? We have to rely on luck now? What's your point?

That's actually how most cases are solved. Someone hears or sees something.

Most of the UM cases are solved by people that were not actively looking for the wanted persons.

If the ship did sink, what I'm hoping of is that at some point a group of divers, US Navy, Water cartographers, treasure hunters, etc.. will come across a unique wreck at the bottom or come across some driftwood that will be a clue as to the fate of the Freedon. Much like Tom Roche's body was discovered by random people.

A little luck never hurts in a criminal investigation.

[Mastermind]

Occam's razor. We need no other assumptions to say it sunk with all hands. It doesn't make it so, with certainly, of course, but the simplest explanation is usually the correct one.

Your simple explanation could be torpedoed if the crew is found alive somewhere. Just as much as the other theory could be torpedoed by the wreckage being found.

There's only the circumstantial evidence that: (1) they were on a boat; (2) the boat was in the ocean; (3) boats sink in the ocean; (4) they didn't make it to their destination; (5) they have never (for 20 some-odd years) been seen again; (6) the boat has never been seen again.

None of what you listed is circumstantial evidence

(3) boats sink in the ocean:lol: I don;t see how you quantify that as circumstantial evidence. Cars crash on roads, too. What's your point?:confused:

(2) the boat was in the ocean;
Again, this is not circumstantial evidence. And Cars are on land. Again what is your point. :confused:

(4) they didn't make it to their destination;

they have never (for 20 some-odd years) been seen again

Jimmy Hoffa hasn't been seen in an even longer period of time. And he didn;t make his destination either. Come to think of it. He was driving in a car. Cars are on land. Cars crash. Using the circumstantial evidence you listed above couldn't I assume that Jimmy Hoffa died in a car crash and we just haven't found his body?

Come to think of it there are more car crashes than boat sinkings in a year. In fact your more likely to get runover walking the streets of New York City than to die of your boat sinking in the Atlantic.


Not to joke, but all your circumstantial evidence proves is what we already know in this case---that the crew of the Freedon is missing under unexplained circumstances. More evidence is needed to proceed at this point.

[Mastermind]

BTW, I should point out that the "Freedon sunk" theory is basically unprovable. To actually prove that the crew is dead you would have to find every corpse in the wreckage, which could prove difficult. Even if you did find the wreckage..whose to say that the crew didn't abandon the ship or were rescued.

However the "Freedon crew survived" theory can very much be solved by finding at least one living crewmember who could tell the story. His story could lead to finding other of the crew members and perhaps even the ship.

The "Freedon sunk" theorists are at a disadvantage in that there theory is the most difficult to come to a conclusion. You will not get a "closed case". There will still be answers even if the wreck is found.

[Mastermind]

One of the biggest mistakes people make in cases is that they assume that they have all the evidence and that there will be no more evidence to come to light.

So based on that they create theories based on the limited or complete absence of evidence.

If I'm blind and I touch an elephant by the trunk, that doesn;t make it a snake. I need to touch the whole elephant to make sure the animal is an elephant and not a snake.

[egswanso]

Your simple explanation could be torpedoed if the crew is found alive somewhere. Just as much as the other theory could be torpedoed by the wreckage being found.

None of what you listed is circumstantial evidence

Of course it could, because it's not an answer, it's a theory, and by definition, is falsifiable; not sure why you feel the need to argue the point.

Circumstantial evidence = indirect evidence that forms the basis for a deduction. If you come to a deduction, you must provide the foundation for the same.

:lol: I don;t see how you quantify that as circumstantial evidence. Cars crash on roads, too. What's your point?:confused:

Again, this is not circumstantial evidence. And Cars are on land. Again what is your point. :confused:


There is no point, it's foundation. Foundation that, I think, is undisputed, but you never know what basic things people might dispute. The foundation here is that boats can and do sink in the ocean; indeed the Caribbean is one of the most dangerous waterways in the world.

Jimmy Hoffa hasn't been seen in an even longer period of time. And he didn;t make his destination either. Come to think of it. He was driving in a car. Cars are on land. Cars crash. Using the circumstantial evidence you listed above couldn't I assume that Jimmy Hoffa died in a car crash and we just haven't found his body?

To some degree, however, the analogy is not quite the same, given the different procedures between land and water accidents; and, of course, the massive amounts of other evidence.

Come to think of it there are more car crashes than boat sinkings in a year. In fact your more likely to get runover walking the streets of New York City than to die of your boat sinking in the Atlantic.

Not to joke, but all your circumstantial evidence proves is what we already know in this case---that the crew of the Freedon is missing under unexplained circumstances. More evidence is needed to proceed at this point.

That's exactly the point. Based upon what is known, the boat probably sank. That doesn't mean the case is closed; it doesn't answer anything, however, until and unless more evidence is discovered, it remains the most likely explanation.

[egswanso]

One of the biggest mistakes people make in cases is that they assume that they have all the evidence and that there will be no more evidence to come to light.

So based on that they create theories based on the limited or complete absence of evidence.

If I'm blind and I touch an elephant by the trunk, that doesn;t make it a snake. I need to touch the whole elephant to make sure the animal is an elephant and not a snake.

No. The biggest mistakes people make is refusing to change their theory when new evidence comes to light.

You have to make a theory based upon the evidence at hand. To do else is stupid. Equally stupid would be to refuse to accept new evidence. Sadly, that's all too common.

In this case, for instance, I could theorize that Florian and Lisa are living together in Tahiti, where they run a bed and breakfast. This is a pretty stupid theory, frankly, but I suppose it's no difference then a theory that Lisa's a white slave, Florian killed her, Florian and Lisa were kidnapped by drug dealers, etc., etc. There are just a ton more assumptions needed for any of these theories, which weakens them compared to sunk theory.

[rhzunam]

That's actually how most cases are solved. Someone hears or sees something.

Most of the UM cases are solved by people that were not actively looking for the wanted persons.

If the ship did sink, what I'm hoping of is that at some point a group of divers, US Navy, Water cartographers, treasure hunters, etc.. will come across a unique wreck at the bottom or come across some driftwood that will be a clue as to the fate of the Freedon. Much like Tom Roche's body was discovered by random people.

A little luck never hurts in a criminal investigation.


But you can't rely on luck. Plus the ocean is so huge in land and volume, that it's almost impossible to find anything especially when you don't know where to look.

[Mastermind]

No. The biggest mistakes people make is refusing to change their theory when new evidence comes to light.

The only people that do that are people who have a personal stake, political stake or egotistical stake in the outcome of the case.

I could care less whether they all sunk at the bottom of the Carribean or whether they are drinking Sex on the Beaches in Cabo. I'm just interesting in keeping the lines of investigation open and not adhering to one theory. Especially in a missing persons case, where the case is not solved until the person dead or alive is found. IMHO, there is just as muck likelihood that foul play has occurred as there is that the boat sank. There is no physical evidence to suggest either.

Hence you could look at either the bottom of the ocean floor or the slums of the Carribean for the crew. Both are valid investigation points and both should be pursued.

I would hope that your interest in this case would be purely in seeing the case solved. That you are not holding on to any particular theory or ignoring any particular theory just because it is not yours. Judging by your comments I am positive that you are not the type of person to let ego get in the way of your thinking. Am I correct?

[Mastermind]

But you can't rely on luck.

You better if your going to solve any type of cold case. It's not going to be brilliant police work that get decades old cases solved.


Plus the ocean is so huge in land and volume, that it's almost impossible to find anything especially when you don't know where to look.

Such is the problem with nearly every pirated ship, missing ship, sunken ship, derelict, smuggler ship case that the Coast Guard has to investigate.

Yet Coast Guard investigators have to make determinations and base criminal investigations all the time based on these parameters.
They could
1. Assume the ship sunk,
a. Abandoning survivors
b. Leaving criminals unprosecuted
c. Letting contraband go through...(a huge risk now with terrorism)

2. they could leave the case open and pursue the criminal case.

[egswanso]

The only people that do that are people who have a personal stake, political stake or egotistical stake in the outcome of the case.

I could care less whether they all sunk at the bottom of the Carribean or whether they are drinking Sex on the Beaches in Cabo. I'm just interesting in keeping the lines of investigation open and not adhering to one theory. Especially in a missing persons case, where the case is not solved until the person dead or alive is found. IMHO, there is just as muck likelihood that foul play has occurred as there is that the boat sank. There is no physical evidence to suggest either.

Hence you could look at either the bottom of the ocean floor or the slums of the Carribean for the crew. Both are valid investigation points and both should be pursued.

I would hope that your interest in this case would be purely in seeing the case solved. That you are not holding on to any particular theory or ignoring any particular theory just because it is not yours. Judging by your comments I am positive that you are not the type of person to let ego get in the way of your thinking. Am I correct?

Indeed you are.

This is simply a case where the the lack of evidence suggests to me the simplest explanation, but I make no claim this explanation is the correct one; and I whole-heartedly agree that the case should not be "closed" because new evidence one way or the other changes the whole direction of the case.

A good example and analogy would be the Hawaiian fisherman case (the name escapes me at the moment). After they disappeared, the working theory would and should have been that the boat sank in a storm. However, the discovery of the boat and grave on a remote island took it in a whole new direction.

Sadly, those with personal, political, or egotistical stakes often are in charge of the official explanations.

[Kyte]

Exactly. Lisa, herself, could keep a low profile and still be living there.


....

are you serious?

[Mastermind]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mastermind



Exactly. Lisa, herself, could keep a low profile and still be living there.


....

are you serious?


A serious as lower paralysis.

1. Haiti's not exactly the most beauracratic nation in terms of keeping tabs on people. it's a third world nation. Whitey Bulger could hide there and not be heard of. Hell he probably has. Most likely though, Lisa if she is alive is living elsewhere in the carribean. Personally I feel both are dead...whether it be foul play or not is unknown.

2. No body has been found, what proof do you have that she's dead?

3. She was pretty young, she would be in what here 40s??? Not exactly massive old age.

4. As with most missing persons cases..people seem to assume that everyone will look as they do they moment they left. Lisa and Florian could look radically different at this point.

[educ123]

I would love to know what happened to Freedon after the Grand Cayman sighting. Was it an actual sighting, or did the witness make a mistake? Or was he misdirecting people who were in search at the time.

[nohwheregirl]

I would love to know what happened to Freedon after the Grand Cayman sighting. Was it an actual sighting, or did the witness make a mistake? Or was he misdirecting people who were in search at the time.
I think we would all like to know that, for sure. This is one eye witness sighting that I actually find believable, mostly because he has a very specific story about why he remembered the name of the boat. It is possible that he misremembered the date of the sighting, but IIRC, the boat would have been off of it's route anyway.

Of course, I always think of the Lisa Kimmell case where so many people came forward and swore up and down that they saw the "Lil Miss" license plate when we later learned that many of these sightings would have been impossible.

[TheCars1986]

Why hasn't anything been brought up about the other 7 people on board the Freedon? If Florian had something to do with Lisa's disappearance (as her family and boyfriend suggest), what became of the crew? I can't believe Florian went on some sort of rampage and killed or had everyone on the boat kidnapped which is why I think the boat was commandeered by pirates and everyone on board was killed.

[DarkDante]

I don't think Florian went on any type of rampage at all. The two theories which I believe are the strongest in this case hinge on whether or not the sightings of Florian after the disappearance of the Freedon are accurate.

If the sightings are not accurate, then we all know that Florian and his friend Phillipe were involved in drug smuggling so it's quite possible that everyone on board the Freedon was killed in an attempt to make this huge drug run to Haiti.

If the sightings are accurate it's possible that Florian could have been involved in other illegal activities including prostitution/white slavery whatever you want to call it and may have put Lisa in a position where she may have been taken against her will to another country where she was then forced to enter the sex trade.

[TheCars1986]

I don't think Florian went on any type of rampage at all. The two theories which I believe are the strongest in this case hinge on whether or not the sightings of Florian after the disappearance of the Freedon are accurate.

If the sightings are not accurate, then we all know that Florian and his friend Phillipe were involved in drug smuggling so it's quite possible that everyone on board the Freedon was killed in an attempt to make this huge drug run to Haiti.

If the sightings are accurate it's possible that Florian could have been involved in other illegal activities including prostitution/white slavery whatever you want to call it and may have put Lisa in a position where she may have been taken against her will to another country where she was then forced to enter the sex trade.

But wouldn't one of the members of the crew have came forward if Florian "sold" Lisa into slavery?

[DarkDante]

But wouldn't one of the members of the crew have came forward if Florian "sold" Lisa into slavery?

I've struggled with the non-mention of the missing crew as well. All that we know is they were Haitian crew members which gives me the indication that they probably weren't "Florian's crew" so to speak and basically were a crew that probably went along on a lot of these type voyages. Beyond that I have no idea what would have happened to them. I wouldn't be surprised if they were alive though.

[cocytus]

There are a number of possibilities:

1) The ship sank - This would explain no one has seen nor heard of the ship since it sailed from Miami (I think that the sighting in Grand Cayman was a conflation of an earlier sighting.)

2) Drug smugglers/Human smugglers - Drug/human smugglers hijacked the ship and killed the crew.

3) Mutiny - The crew mutinied and killed the passengers and sailed the ship to an unknown port.

4) Florian had a falling out w/ Phillipe - Phillipe then killed Florian and Lisa.

5) Phillipe & Florian decided to get rid of Lisa - Possible, but then no one has seen Florian since they sailed. ( I wouldn't give much credence to sightings by people in the tourist areas)

Here are reasons why I'm surprised that this wasn't solved much earlier:

1) All ships using US ports have to detailed information about their insurance, crews and ownership ( at least its flag of convenience) and this is public information. Why didn't the families start looking for the ship FIRST and then they would be able to locate the family member.

2) While there are a number of ships plying the water of the Caribbean, there aren't an infinite number of them. A search of the ports in the various countries surrounding the Caribbean should have turned up something.

3) The Haitian crew - Even considering that Haiti is a basket case, there are plenty of people that would miss family members. I'm surprised that ads placed in Haitian papers wouldn't have uncovered some clues.

4) Florian's family - Unless he wasn't particularly close to them (or didn't have any) then if he was still alive, they be the best source of information.

[JackKerouac1989]

This case has always creeped me out.
I know this still hasn't been solved, but have there been any further updates that might provide further clues?

[WishfulDreamer]

I've always wondered if Florian himself had personal interest in Lisa (considering we take the malevolent approach for him) and didn't sell her into any trade, but kept her for himself (at least for a time). I know it sounds weird, but I got that vibe. Such a baffling case!

[SteelersFan83]

Personally, I think Lisa Bishop is dead. However, the sex slave theory does seem plausible to me. Things of that nature have been known to occur frequently in foreign countries. I think this case is similar to the Judy Olive case in one particular aspect. I won't go as far to say that what happened to Judy and LIsa was their fault, but both situations could have been easily avoided if they had taken a second to think about their actions, before getting involved.
Judy got involved with a complete stranger(Ulysses Roberson),who started that situation,by asking her extremely personal questions, including about her menstral cycles, then drugged her, and "had his way" with her. We all know how that case ended up. Lisa could have easily avoided her situation by stopping to think: "Is it really a good idea to board a ship bound for Haiti with someone I just met in a bar 5 minutes ago?"

[sdb4884]

Those guys need their Freedom, they can't even spell the word.

[DCFan1911]

Personally, I believe the most likely scenario is the Freedon sank with all hands on board and is at the bottom of Caribbean.

In the segment, at one point, Robert Stack does say that Lisa Bishop "and eight other people " disappeared. Therefore it appears that the entire crew went missing; if they were involved in some type of illegal activity, they'd have surely turned up. The reason for so little focus on the Haitian crew might be due to the fact that there simply was very little information about them to begin with.

As for the dashing German captain, he may have been involved in some sort of drug running, but why would he have gone on this voyage, sold Lisa Bishop into slavery, and then disappeared? Certainly if that's what he was up to, he'd been up to it for a while, and I doubt he would have just decided to do it once and then vanish forever. Had he turned up somewhere, then we might have a different scenario, but since he went missing too, it seems more likely that he is the victim of a shipwreck.

In regards to the sightings of the Freedon, it's likely a case of confusion over dates. How often have we thought he saw someone last week when it was 2 weeks ago? These things happen.

Finally, look at the photos of the Freedon. It was clearly and old and banged-up ship, and could have fallen victim to any number of problems that caused it to sink. If this happened, the odds of it ever being found at the bottom of the sea are slim-to-none.

With this case it seems there are any number of theories that could have happened, but the most simple explanation - a shipwreck in which all hands were lost - is the most likely.

[cocytus]

Personally, I believe the most likely scenario is the Freedon sank with all hands on board and is at the bottom of Caribbean.

In the segment, at one point, Robert Stack does say that Lisa Bishop "and eight other people " disappeared. Therefore it appears that the entire crew went missing; if they were involved in some type of illegal activity, they'd have surely turned up. The reason for so little focus on the Haitian crew might be due to the fact that there simply was very little information about them to begin with.

As for the dashing German captain, he may have been involved in some sort of drug running, but why would he have gone on this voyage, sold Lisa Bishop into slavery, and then disappeared? Certainly if that's what he was up to, he'd been up to it for a while, and I doubt he would have just decided to do it once and then vanish forever. Had he turned up somewhere, then we might have a different scenario, but since he went missing too, it seems more likely that he is the victim of a shipwreck.

In regards to the sightings of the Freedon, it's likely a case of confusion over dates. How often have we thought he saw someone last week when it was 2 weeks ago? These things happen.

Finally, look at the photos of the Freedon. It was clearly and old and banged-up ship, and could have fallen victim to any number of problems that caused it to sink. If this happened, the odds of it ever being found at the bottom of the sea are slim-to-none.

With this case it seems there are any number of theories that could have happened, but the most simple explanation - a shipwreck in which all hands were lost - is the most likely.


Stack said that the eight people AND Ms. Bishop were missing, but he didn't provide any details. It's possible that the ship did sink but that it did so in a manner that left no survivors and no wreckage is the major problem w/ that scenario. Unless the Freedon exploded or was sunk in a violent storm there should have been survivors or at least a sizable amount of debris showing the general area where it sunk.

Since the segment never makes it clear whether the family searched for the crew as well as Ms. Bishop, we'll never know if they may have missed vital clues as to what happened to the Freedon. The sinking theory is plausible but there needs to be more evidence pointing that direction.

[sdb4884]

Damm that awesomely vague show UM!

[TheCars1986]

If one of the Haitian crew members surfaced, just ONE, there could be an argument that Florian could be alive and also involved in the death/disappearance of Lisa Bishop. Then again the argument could be made that she was still alive too, living with Florian somewhere. But I think the fact that not one person has surfaced after all these years the odds that something accidental happened are extremely high. Unless there was something illegal that the Freedon was transporting (i.e. drugs), I don't see how EVERY single crew member would still be missing to this day. And even if it was something more sinister than a sinking ship like a drug deal gone wrong, how likely is it that someone would go through the trouble of murdering nine people and then disposing of their bodies and the ship? I think it sank.

[Fukiyama]

A few points on one of my favorite cases:

1. Regarding the Haitian crew members: unless there is proof positive that they are missing, I think the importance given to them and the mention of them in the original segment in this thread is pointless. We don't know their names, we don't know if anyone besides Florian and Philippe knew their names. The information presented in the segment about Freedon and her crew was so sketchy that it's impossible to determine if US authorities knew anything really concrete. As far as I'm concerned, Robert Stack's mention of the people and ship being missing at the end of the episode means simply that, that the family and friends of Lisa Bishop never saw them again.

2. Regarding the Haitian crew members' involvement: I don't think that their not turning up over the years to report anything about Lisa Bishop should be taken as proof that they are missing. Most likely they were regulars who crewed ships that were on all kinds of runs, legal and illegal. They knew how to keep their mouths shut. It would clarify a lot about the dynamics on the ship if we had just a few concrete details on who was in command of the ship. My first thought though is that while Florian and Philippe were 'in charge', the crew was probably largely autonomous in the day to day running of the ship while at sea. Maybe one of them was bilingual, but I would bet that most of them spoke only French and had little contact with Lisa Bishop. Florian could have taken Lisa ashore one day at a stop along the way and then come back alone at the end of the day and that would have been that as far as the crew as concerned.

3. Regarding the destination of Freedon: was the ship actually going to Haiti? Florien said it was. Lisa told her friends and family what she knew. But given the shady natures of Florian and his associates, to just assume that he was in fact telling the truth is I think a major mistake. The ship left the US and never turned up in Haiti, but it did turn up in Grand Cayman with Florian with it according to witnesses, which as the original segment noted was completely out of the way.

Conclusion: I believe that Freedon made whatever run it intended to make and then went on its way, reflagged, repainted, renamed, whatever. That Philippe's girlfriend were never tracked down and questioned by authorities was probably the single biggest reason why this case remains unsolved.

[bluejazz87]

That girl should have never ran off with those people.

[justins5256]

That girl should have never ran off with those people.

I could stare at your avatar all day...:D

[justins5256]

I have a friend of who works with customs at one of the ports in Palm Beach. I am going to ask how stringent the requirements are with regard to having identification of everyone on board a ship bound for another country.

The problem I see here is that the Freedon departed from a port in Miami so it would have had to go through some sort of customs inspection which I'm thinking would have entailed recording the identities of everyone on board, including the crew.

I'm sorry to get so fixated on the crew, but I think knowing what became of them is key to figuring this out. I would assume they are considered missing persons, but you know what happens when one "assumes".

[egswanso]

A few points on one of my favorite cases:

1. Regarding the Haitian crew members: unless there is proof positive that they are missing, I think the importance given to them and the mention of them in the original segment in this thread is pointless. We don't know their names, we don't know if anyone besides Florian and Philippe knew their names. The information presented in the segment about Freedon and her crew was so sketchy that it's impossible to determine if US authorities knew anything really concrete. As far as I'm concerned, Robert Stack's mention of the people and ship being missing at the end of the episode means simply that, that the family and friends of Lisa Bishop never saw them again.

2. Regarding the Haitian crew members' involvement: I don't think that their not turning up over the years to report anything about Lisa Bishop should be taken as proof that they are missing. Most likely they were regulars who crewed ships that were on all kinds of runs, legal and illegal. They knew how to keep their mouths shut. It would clarify a lot about the dynamics on the ship if we had just a few concrete details on who was in command of the ship. My first thought though is that while Florian and Philippe were 'in charge', the crew was probably largely autonomous in the day to day running of the ship while at sea. Maybe one of them was bilingual, but I would bet that most of them spoke only French and had little contact with Lisa Bishop. Florian could have taken Lisa ashore one day at a stop along the way and then come back alone at the end of the day and that would have been that as far as the crew as concerned.

3. Regarding the destination of Freedon: was the ship actually going to Haiti? Florien said it was. Lisa told her friends and family what she knew. But given the shady natures of Florian and his associates, to just assume that he was in fact telling the truth is I think a major mistake. The ship left the US and never turned up in Haiti, but it did turn up in Grand Cayman with Florian with it according to witnesses, which as the original segment noted was completely out of the way.

Conclusion: I believe that Freedon made whatever run it intended to make and then went on its way, reflagged, repainted, renamed, whatever. That Philippe's girlfriend were never tracked down and questioned by authorities was probably the single biggest reason why this case remains unsolved.

I am disturbed by the flippant attitude many posters seem to have re: the Haitian crew and the ease many presume that they were doing something illegal.

The segment makes clear that the crew is missing. We aren't told their names, but in some ways they are the more important ones. These men were doing their jobs, probably sending money back to their families. I don't know, but given the strength of Haitian familial bonds, they almost certainly had extended families that love and miss them. Why do you think they wouldn't care what happened to someone on their ship? Sure, some might have been scoundrels, just like people everywhere, but being poor, black, and Kreyol doesn't make them any less human.

And let's compare them to Lisa Bishop. Her actions suggest, at best, she's self-absorbed, dangerously impulsive, and a terrible decision-maker. We can say for certain she disappeared because of specific actions SHE took. I'm not blaming her, of course, since no matter how irresponsible she was, she didn't deserve to die, or what-ever fate befalled her, but she wasn't just doing her job. She had a choice.

[justins5256]

odd comment from "the site that shall not be named"

""an underwater salvager named Bob Nyberg recognized in Georgtown Harbor on Grand Cayman Island over 500 miles from Haiti two weeks after it was reported missing. Bourch was seen alive in the company of an unidentified man, later identified as Phillippe, who had chartered it, but no trace of Lisa was found. Before Nyberg and Lisa's boyfriend, There has been heavy speculation that Nyburg could be involved in smuggling; he is wanted for questioning in Lisa's whereabouts."

[Fukiyama]

...
I'm not trying to be flippant about the fate of the Haitian crew members. If someone here wants to contact the Feds and track down any immigration records or missing persons reports about the Haitians that lists their identities and declares that they are MISSING, then I'm all for that being clarified. But if you want to question posters' integrities, at least have the personal integrity to admit that you are in turn presuming that the Haitians were just honest men doing work to feed their families.

[TheCars1986]

I'm not trying to be flippant about the fate of the Haitian crew members. If someone here wants to contact the Feds and track down any immigration records or missing persons reports about the Haitians that lists their identities and declares that they are MISSING, then I'm all for that being clarified. But if you want to question posters' integrities, at least have the personal integrity to admit that you are in turn presuming that the Haitians were just honest men doing work to feed their families.

I have no idea why UM did not name the Haitian crew members. But in both the Stack and Farina epsidoes they say that Lisa and eight other people were missing. Everyone on board the Freedon that day is still missing. Personally, I think it sank.

[egswanso]

I'm not trying to be flippant about the fate of the Haitian crew members. If someone here wants to contact the Feds and track down any immigration records or missing persons reports about the Haitians that lists their identities and declares that they are MISSING, then I'm all for that being clarified. But if you want to question posters' integrities, at least have the personal integrity to admit that you are in turn presuming that the Haitians were just honest men doing work to feed their families.

I'll certainly take you at your word that you weren't trying to be flippant, but that is how your post came across to me.

The segment makes clear the Haitians are missing too. As no-one on the ship disappeared in the United States, it is not a matter properly belonging in federal jurisdiction (i would presume that as the flag was Haitian-flagged and the destination was Port-au-Prince, i believe, Haiti would have jurisdiction)

I'm not questioning your integrity, what-ever that means, I'm pointing out, as I did earlier in this post, that everyone seems quick to presume the ship and the crew were all scoundrels involved in drug-running, white slavery, etc., etc. with not a shred of real evidence. Maybe they were, but if so, I doubt Lisa was just an innocent passenger. I can't just jump to that conclusion without some evidence.

[ILikeTurtles]

I was positive I've seen every Unsolved Mysteries segment from the late 80's-early 90's, but I just came across this one for the first time tonight.

My thought are this is very similar to the Freedom 2. I believe there was either drug trafficking or smuggling taking place and she was in the wrong place at the wrong time. It's highly likely Lisa Bishop is dead at this point. I bet she saw something she wasn't suppose too.

[bip05]

Do we know where Christopher Chichester was during this time?
:lol:

if it were chichester my life would be complete :happyface